Gay Premier Leauge players?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Nope 1 in 8 is high risk. Assuming events are independent or even quasi-independent, it means many will have experienced some form of abuse during the course of their lives. Who knows how a hate crime is defined. However defined, I assume it's not a pleasant experience, so it only has to happen once for it to leave a mark.

 

Assuming they are correct, the numbers speak for themselves. End of.

 

No different to day to day life though is it? I think 1 in 8 people to be subject to one of the crimes that are defined as hate crimes is about right?

Edited 7 November, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I think that any Human Being experiencing a hate crime incident once in their life time is too often. Do you disagree? Again, the official statistics provided show that 1 in 8 members of the LGBT societal group - on average - expedience what is defined (by HMG) as a 'hate crime' incident every year. Therefore, young Matthew's experience of homophobia seems absolutely typical of young men in his situation today.

 

As for the statistical evidence. You do understand I hope that the CSEW (Crime Survey for England & Wales) interview some 25,000 adults and 3,000 children about their individual experiences of criminality every year. This sample size is of course one far in excess of those typically undertaken by any of the well known national polling organisations - such as MORI for example. Furthermore, the interview methodology employed by the CSEW is (I understand) also far more rigorous and scientifically measured than some quasi-random 'if the General Election was held tomorrow' type exercise conducted over a telephone. I can't help but wonder if this sudden desire to question the evidence is motivated more by the fact that the evidence doesn't support your argument, rather than any real show of concern for the truth here.

 

You, Hypo and the rest of this somewhat 'motley crew' on here who are so remarkably determined to deny the actual evidence that we have in favour of their own person (and therefore entirely subjective) perception of reality can flounder around from here to 'kingdom come' if you wish. But in the final analysis the facts are the facts.

 

Yes it is too often , but I would say no different than from any other walk of life. The stats I have quoted are from your evidence and have proved my point, that was my, err, point, above. I would say that if those stats are your point, and not the earlier claim that you have experienced homophobia on a weekly basis, and that if you're a member of the LGBT community this is amplifiedr, then you agree with my viewpoint.

 

The problem comes when you back yourself into a corner with statistics that you either haven't read properly or don't understand, as it has disproved and undermined what you have said on this thread. It has proved the opposite of your earlier points, which is why I've wanted you to explain the stats and how they fit in with your view. You've just come across a bit silly from my point if view.

Edited 7 November, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[shurlock]

No different to day to day life though is it? I think 1 in 8 people to be subject to one of the crimes that are defined as hate crimes is about right?

 

What do you mean day-to-day life? By definition, it's impossible to be a victim of a hate crime unless you're a member or perceived member of a prejudiced group -and the vast, vast majority of us aren't. If you're simply saying there's a 1/8 chance of being physically assaulted etc, I'd saying you're talking utter **** -never mind the statement being noncomparable (see below). If you're referring to abuse of some sort, I go back to my original point and remind you not to compare apples and pears since a hate crime requires an additional element of bias.

 

Cue thick as pig **** helmets with web links to how white people can also be discriminated against and obviously how the numbers are massive in the UK.

Edited 7 November, 2015 by shurlock

[Unbelievable Jeff]

What do you mean day-to-day life? By definition, it's impossible to be a victim of a hate crime unless you're a member or perceived member of a prejudiced group -and the vast, vast majority of us aren't. If you're simply saying there's a 1/8 chance of being physically assaulted etc, I'd saying you're talking utter **** -never mind the statement being noncomparable (see below). If you're referring to abuse of some sort, I go back to my original point and remind you not to compare apples and pears since a hate crime requires an additional element of bias.

 

Cue thick as pig **** helmets with web links to how white people can also be discriminated against and obviously how the numbers are massive in the UK.

 

Well, I certainly wouldn't do that.

 

I know a hate crime requires an additional element of bias, but I would say the average person probably suffers from some sort of crime every couple of years, I know I certainly have.

 

You keep on mentioning assault, which accounts for a third of all hate crimes against LGBT, so that would mean one is assaulted every 24 years because of their sexual preference.

 

That doesn't sound a lot to me.

Edited 7 November, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[Ludwig]

I would say the average person probably suffers from some sort of crime every couple of years, I know I certainly have..

 

Being blocked in by the Masons doesn't count. Although I could believe that someone punches you in the face every couple of years.

[shurlock]

Well, I certainly wouldn't do that.

 

I know a hate crime requires an additional element of bias, but I would say the average person probably suffers from some sort of crime every couple of years, I know I certainly have.

 

You keep on mentioning assault, which accounts for a third of all hate crimes against LGBT, so that would mean one is assaulted every 24 years because of their sexual preference.

 

That doesn't sound a lot to me.

 

You mention other crimes; but it's not an either-or. LGBTs will be exposed to those risks in addition to the risk of experiencing a hate crime. The logical benchmark is the 1/8 chance of suffering a hate crime (at least, that's reported) and the infinitesimally slim chance the rest of us has of suffering one. However you cut it 1/8 -or once every 8 years is pretty high for something that's unlikely to be garden-variety abuse.

[Goatboy]

Being blocked in by the Masons doesn't count. Although I could believe that someone punches you in the face every couple of years.

 

[hypochondriac]

You mention other crimes; but it's not an either-or. LGBTs will be exposed to those risks in addition to the risk of experiencing a hate crime. The logical benchmark is the 1/8 chance of suffering a hate crime (at least, that's reported) and the infinitesimally slim chance the rest of us has of suffering one. However you cut it 1/8 -or once every 8 years is pretty high for something that's unlikely to be garden-variety abuse.

 

Eh? Where does the type of abuse feature in the study.

Edited 7 November, 2015 by hypochondriac

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Being blocked in by the Masons doesn't count. Although I could believe that someone punches you in the face every couple of years.

 

Evening Fatso. Followed me back over here have you? Couldn't take me not posting on Papsweb and trying to wind me up over there?

Edited 7 November, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You mention other crimes; but it's not an either-or. LGBTs will be exposed to those risks in addition to the risk of experiencing a hate crime. The logical benchmark is the 1/8 chance of suffering a hate crime (at least, that's reported) and the infinitesimally slim chance the rest of us has of suffering one. However you cut it 1/8 -or once every 8 years is pretty high for something that's unlikely to be garden-variety abuse.

 

Why is some of it not garden-variety abuse? I'm sure some is.

 

Once every 8 years is pretty low in my eyes. But that's opinions I suppose.

[The9]

"He's going to mention Stephen Lawrence in a minute" thinks me to myself.

 

And boom! Off he goes.

 

Still ludicrous. Reckon he's only five posts away from the Holocaust, which I have no doubt he'll pretend other people here have never heard of, but, like, Charlie has. He'll be demanding people "now admit" that it happened and everything.

 

Really rather sweet to accuse others of being out of their depth when one's entire position is to pompously argue against an entirely fabricated opposing position that no one has said and then get jolly outraged about it, replete with more Grandstanding than Des Lynam and Steve Rider put together.

 

But crack on in your little fantasy land Charlie. It's like having a debate in chuffing Narnia.

 

I always thought of Steve Rider as more of a Sportsnight type.

 

The rest of it seems pretty much spot on. "Tell me where we were talking about 2015?" Er, when we started discussing current attitudes to homosexuality.

[The9]

Who'd have thought a thread about gay footballers would in all likelihood end of getting locked.

 

Anyone who's seen the post about the libel laws on the main board? I'm just surprised it's not getting locked for the outing of someone based on half-heard pub whispers.

[The9]

it will never go away. 300k people a year coming to the UK. Many from nations where being gay is a crime or at best, like it was here 35 years ago...will keep it a taboo subject

 

Your desperate attempts to drag every argument back to "them foreigners is bad and there's loads of them and aaargh terrorists innit" makes you look like an absolute moron, just for the record.

[The9]

Well Jeff, if you really do 'seek after the truth' then I did provide you with a link that will lead you to some actual evidence re this matter - I can only suggest that you follow it. For the record, the Home Office reports that the police recorded some 5,597 homophobic 'hate crime' incidents in 2014/15 - a rise of 22%. This statistic of course massively underestimates the scale of the problem because many offences go unreported to the police. This is why professional criminologists stress the importance of the 'Crime Survey' results as this gives a better insight into the true situation.

The government estimates that some 5-7% of the UK population fall into the 'LGBT' group. If correct, that gives us a UK LGBT population of between 3 and 4 million people. Official estimates show that 1 in 8 of this minority group experience a hate crime incident EACH YEAR. http://www.galop.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-Hate-Crime-Report-2013.pdf

 

"Official" estimates from an LGBT group whose very existence is predicated on there needing to be a problem for them to resolve - I can't imagine why they might want to hugely over-estimate the extent of the problem.

[The9]

Does a Rangers fan refusing to talk to me on a stag do, because I told him my nan was Catholic but I wasn't, count as a hate crime? Just asking, because I'm not sure what the chances are of the majority of the population being someone who isn't in any of the minority categories of hate crime, and therefore impossible of having a hate crime against them. Because obviously that weakens the impact of the comparison - "lots of people who can't have hate crimes against them have none, but people who we have defined as being the victims of hate crimes have hate crimes against them".

 

Isn't this actually about how many people, gay or straight, feel at risk of physical attack, irrespective of whether it's for reasons of homosexuality, race or whatever? Because there's every possibility a straight person could be a victim of a gay-bashing if they were displaying the wrong "characteristics", and let's face it, the thugs involved aren't usually keen on nuance or thinking things through.

 

i.e. Raw figures on "people getting attacked in the UK", and raw figures on "homosexuals getting attacking in the UK" are your comparators.

[SW5 SAINT]

Who are the gay footballers then?

 

Who and where are they, it would appear that they don't have much confidence in a positive reaction if they were to come out. Might be ok for some well established international, but the ones in lower league football would surely be worried about the impact on their careers if they were to come out.

[Coxford_lou]

Who and where are they, it would appear that they don't have much confidence in a positive reaction if they were to come out. Might be ok for some well established international, but the ones in lower league football would surely be worried about the impact on their careers if they were to come out.

 

Not according to this thread.

 

According to this thread it's of no consequence if they come out, homophobia does not exist today apart from one or two "bellends" and if they do come out, it's probably just for PR and career purposes.

 

Note. The story is supposed to be breaking in the new year.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Not according to this thread.

 

According to this thread it's of no consequence if they come out, homophobia does not exist today apart from one or two "bellends" and if they do come out, it's probably just for PR and career purposes.

 

Note. The story is supposed to be breaking in the new year.

 

According to 'some' on this thread.

 

I think the issue is that in today's society it shouldn't be a big thing, but it is as that is the reputation. But you look at Hitzelsperger and Robbie Rogers, and neither seem to have had much in the way of issues in the playing arena since coming out.

[Coxford_lou]

According to 'some' on this thread.

 

I think the issue is that in today's society it shouldn't be a big thing, but it is as that is the reputation. But you look at Hitzelsperger and Robbie Rogers, and neither seem to have had much in the way of issues in the playing arena since coming out.

 

You may be right, UJ, you may be wrong. Either way, a premier league player coming out is the only way we'll (and other kids up and down the country) know that for sure, and for that alone, it's a positive thing.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You may be right, UJ, you may be wrong. Either way, a premier league player coming out is the only way we'll (and other kids up and down the country) know that for sure, and for that alone, it's a positive thing.

 

True story.

[Dig Dig]

According to 'some' on this thread.

 

I think the issue is that in today's society it shouldn't be a big thing, but it is as that is the reputation. But you look at Hitzelsperger and Robbie Rogers, and neither seem to have had much in the way of issues in the playing arena since coming out.

 

Except that Hitzelsperger hasn't played since coming out and Rogers retired before returing to the sport in America?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Except that Hitzelsperger hasn't played since coming out and Rogers retired before returing to the sport in America?

 

Rogers has still played though hasn't he? Didn't realise Hitzelsperger came out after retiring. Either way, the point still stands (if not rather weakly).

[Jonnyboy]

I think the press, along with friends and family, should aggressively "out" a Premier League player. In the long run it will be for his/her own good.

[Colinjb]

Rogers has still played though hasn't he?

 

Pretty sure he is at LA Galaxy.

[sadoldgit]

According to 'some' on this thread.

 

I think the issue is that in today's society it shouldn't be a big thing, but it is as that is the reputation. But you look at Hitzelsperger and Robbie Rogers, and neither seem to have had much in the way of issues in the playing arena since coming out.

 

At the risk of incurring The Wrath of Hypo I though I would pop back and see how this debate is going. No progress then! I agree UJ that in todays society it shouldn't be a big thing. Trouble is it clearly is a big thing in professional football. Several pros have said that they know of a number of gay footballers who haven't come out because they are worried about the reaction they will get. I assume that The Mirror has done what they have done to prepare the ground for two players to come out - otherwise why not just print their names now and be done? It is a shame this didn't happen when some of the rugby guys came out but hey ho. There will be a big media fuss for a while then we will all start worrying about The Next Big Thing in the media. The more professional people in all fields come out the better though. At some point the homophobes will realise that a number of policemen, doctors, footballers, bank managers. refuse collectors, borough councillors, politicians, shop assistants, garage mechanics, paramedics, firemen etc are gay and the only thing different about them is their choice of partner.

[sadoldgit]

I think the press, along with friends and family, should aggressively "out" a Premier League player. In the long run it will be for his/her own good.

 

tongue in cheek? In an ideal world any gay person should be able to feel that they can live their lives in a normal way without having to make some big public pronouncement about their sexuality. Unfortunately the world is far from ideal and although the vast majority of people will probably work out that, by law of averages, a number of professional footballers will be gay, it still seems to be "an issue." It will continue to be "an issue" until someone famous comes out. It will be made a huge fuss of for a while until someone decides what the next big issue will be and then we will all be talking about that.

[Wade Garrett]

Who and where are they, it would appear that they don't have much confidence in a positive reaction if they were to come out. Might be ok for some well established international, but the ones in lower league football would surely be worried about the impact on their careers if they were to come out.

 

Does homophobia increase as you go down the leagues?

 

You might be right, but who are the players coming out?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Well, I think here is one of them...

 

[The9]

Does homophobia increase as you go down the leagues?

 

You might be right, but who are the players coming out?

 

The level of homophobia might not, but the exposure to the media reduces to the point where dubious beliefs (and by that I mean homophobia, for avoidance of doubt) can escape wider censure.

[ScepticalStan]

it will never go away. 300k people a year coming to the UK. Many from nations where being gay is a crime or at best, like it was here 35 years ago...will keep it a taboo subject

 

There is a point to be made here. Football is a hugely international sport and homosexuality is, I'm sorry to say, still widely reviled in (arguably) most parts of the world even now.

 

Its very easy to assume that the rest of the world is as tolerant and progressive as modern, liberal Britain.

[The9]

There is a point to be made here. Football is a hugely international sport and homosexuality is, I'm sorry to say, still widely reviled in (arguably) most parts of the world even now.

 

Its very easy to assume that the rest of the world is as tolerant and progressive as modern, liberal Britain.

 

It's pretty much irrelevant to any discussion about someone actually living in Britain though, as you would imagine anyone being permanently employed as a player by a British-based club would be. Fairly sure there are only a very limited number of British-based players for whom the impact on their global image rights might be an issue.

[mcjwills]

Frankly I don't give two hoots about any players sexual orientation. I will simply judge the player on their skills and abilities.

[ART]

Twitter

Tyrone Mings ‏@OfficialTM_3 3h3 hours ago

 

Overdue ❄️

 

[bridge too far]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-34890231

[Batman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-34890231

 

there is a transexual player

[Unbelievable Jeff]

there is a transexual player

 

Definitely Samir Nasri...

 

What an irrelevant news story though. There has also been an increase in anti Muslim hate crime since last week. Maybe that should also be put up here.

[Coxford_lou]

 

What an irrelevant news story though. There has also been an increase in anti Muslim hate crime since last week. Maybe that should also be put up here.

 

Harsh, Jeff. Aside from the fact an increase in anti Muslim hate crime (or any) would definitely be newsworthy, and it's a topic that's been written about a lot.

[bridge too far]

Harsh, Jeff. Aside from the fact an increase in anti Muslim hate crime (or any) would definitely be newsworthy, and it's a topic that's been written about a lot.

 

Cheers Lou! Deep in the article, there is mention of the increase in transgender hate crime and homophobia. Many on here were saying it didn't really exist these days. So highly relevant in my view.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Cheers Lou! Deep in the article, there is mention of the increase in transgender hate crime and homophobia. Many on here were saying it didn't really exist these days. So highly relevant in my view.

 

Have to agree to disagree.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Harsh, Jeff. Aside from the fact an increase in anti Muslim hate crime (or any) would definitely be newsworthy, and it's a topic that's been written about a lot.

 

I can't remember anyone actually debating the transgender hate crimes though...

[ART]

Came across this video on Facebook today and find it throws up all the issues that the football world faces where coming out publicly poses huge issues for some guys in the game.

 

[Essruu]

Came across this video...

 

Interesting choice of phrase.

 

I skipped through the video twice. First time it started on a locker full of semi/-naked, oiled up men; second time it was a couple of benders kissing.

 

Your search parameters to find this short film must be quite telling. Is this your way of testing the waters before your big coming out announce the on here?

[Goatboy]

Quite telling that you 'skipped' (presumably gaily) through twice. Did these 'benders' secretly excite you?

I'm sure they'd be turned on by your 70's Alf Garnett terminology.

[Special K]

Twitter

Tyrone Mings ‏@OfficialTM_3 3h3 hours ago

 

Overdue ❄️

 

 

You'd thing with all the money they get, they could afford a decent pair of strides, FFS.

 

And socks.

[ART]

Seems this is the last piece in the jigsaw before announcements of comings out in football

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/adidas-tells-sport-stars-we-wont-fire-you-if-you-come-out?utm_term=.pdne5xAX2#.ia5YBX8ov

[chocco boxo]

Is Darren still Bent..?

[ART]

The past two nights on TalkSports Extra Time with Tom Latcham, the former Basketball giant John Amaechi gave an interesting and revealing interview. Amaechi, who came out after retiring and now works as a Psychologist, stated he personally knows of 12 Premier League and Championship players who are gay, who are known as such by friends, colleagues and are prepared of exposure at any time. Yet they aren't doing anything to come out publically.

 

The Podcast has now appeared at TalkSport for those who'd like to listen to this very interesting interview that deals with a number of interesting topics related to sport and psychology as well as his own experience with coming out and gay footballers

 

To listen only to what he says about gay players in football go the end of the Podcast.

 

 

,

[suewhistle]

he personally knows of 12 Premier League and Championship players who are gay, who are known as such by friends, colleagues and are prepared of exposure at any time. Yet they aren't doing anything to come out publically.

 

Why should they do it publically; it's enough that the important people in their life know. When the situation comes out they'll no doubt be a few saying they're "flaunting" their sexuality; with the bigots you can't win.

 

I used to go sailing with a gay skipper who lived up in London in the early 80s. He had no interest in football, but knowing of mine he told me that then he knew (or knew of) quite a few gay professional footballers..

[hypochondriac]

The past two nights on TalkSports Extra Time with Tom Latcham, the former Basketball giant John Amaechi gave an interesting and revealing interview. Amaechi, who came out after retiring and now works as a Psychologist, stated he personally knows of 12 Premier League and Championship players who are gay, who are known as such by friends, colleagues and are prepared of exposure at any time. Yet they aren't doing anything to come out publically.

 

The Podcast has now appeared at TalkSport for those who'd like to listen to this very interesting interview that deals with a number of interesting topics related to sport and psychology as well as his own experience with coming out and gay footballers

 

To listen only to what he says about gay players in football go the end of the Podcast.

 

 

,

Good for them. I'm glad they are comfortable letting family and friends know without making a big overt display about it all.

[eurosaint]

My money is still on Ronaldo being the first and it would send out a real message that you can be the world's best footballer and that being gay is not an issue !

If that were to happen, the floodgates would open and hopefully within a short time it would cease being a talking point !