What Is Happening To Our Country?

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Perception is reality to some 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Turkish said:

The far right are the problem has often been said 

but everyone who isn’t far left is far right in some people’s eyes 

I honestly believe that a large proportion of the so called far right are just working class or largely non political people who are unhappy with the rate of immigration and the problems it has caused in their communities. If this was attempted to be dealt with effectively then it wouldn't be as big of a problem as it is. Successive governments don't want to do that though they would rather lock up the people doing the protesting (along with the idiots doing burning, violence etc).

[iansums]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I honestly believe that a large proportion of the so called far right are just working class or largely non political people who are unhappy with the rate of immigration and the problems it has caused in their communities. If this was attempted to be dealt with effectively then it wouldn't be as big of a problem as it is. Successive governments don't want to do that though they would rather lock up the people doing the protesting (along with the idiots doing burning, violence etc).

Apparently I'm far right................and so is my wife.

[egg]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I agree but tbf not doing those things hasn't really addressed the issue either. You do rather get the impression that if the issue was actively being addressed more effectively then these riots wouldn't really be a thing and certainly not on this scale. It is true to say that decades of the electorate asking successive governments to do something about immigration that is then ignored or the rate accelerated has made the scale of discontent and this the likelihood of disorder much more likely.

I get all of that. There's no easy solution, and the fact that isolated (but appalling) incidents are sending people over the edge, tells a story. That said, the Southampton protests were not about stopping immigration: it started with shouts of "get them out", so directed at people already here, and the Belfast protests saw the homes of settled black people being targeted.

Immigration is a factor, but just one - the judge in Southampton crown court today nailed when he said "This violence was hate crime, borne out of hatred of the police and in some cases racist views,"

[egg]

2 minutes ago, iansums said:

Apparently I'm far right................and so is my wife.

The interesting thing is I don't think anyone on here has labelled you. I recall you doing it to yourself on occasions, including self describing yourself as islamophobic or similar - apologies If I remembered the wrong word that you sued. You don't strike me as that though and your views generally don't present as extreme. 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I honestly believe that a large proportion of the so called far right are just working class or largely non political people who are unhappy with the rate of immigration and the problems it has caused in their communities. If this was attempted to be dealt with effectively then it wouldn't be as big of a problem as it is. Successive governments don't want to do that though they would rather lock up the people doing the protesting (along with the idiots doing burning, violence etc).

I was with you until the last bit. There's no "rather" about dealing with violent protestors, but a necessity. 

[sockeye]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

This violence was hate crime, borne out of hatred of the police

I dont think being police should be a protected characteristic and this statement rings alarm bells in my head, like it’s unjustified to hate the police when they drop shocker after shocker and are symptomatic of a general institutional failing in this country

that said I dont like the violence

[Gloucester Saint]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I honestly believe that a large proportion of the so called far right are just working class or largely non political people who are unhappy with the rate of immigration and the problems it has caused in their communities. If this was attempted to be dealt with effectively then it wouldn't be as big of a problem as it is. Successive governments don't want to do that though they would rather lock up the people doing the protesting (along with the idiots doing burning, violence etc).

Not sure that stands up to objective scrutiny https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c5yz9pvvwg9t

They’ll boot them out on the day of release but the HO won’t show its hand in advance to the activists and lawyers.

The people protesting and being arrested/jailed are doing so violently, people aren’t being arrested for banners, chanting unless clearly racist, and lobbying. They’re being arrested for inciting arson attacks on hotels, attacking police officers, setting fire to innocent people’s houses, smashing windows, torching cars, and attacking black and other minority UK-born taxpayers who have nothing whatsoever to do with the original incident.

Hell, even the GOP won’t let Trump have his restorative justice fund for the January 6 yobs who attacked police officers. 

As a final killer point, the people who carried out similar violence in 2011 who were from minority backgrounds received very similar sentences to those being handed out recently from Southampton, Southport, and no doubt Glasgow. Belfast might be a different magnitude.

Edited 5 hours ago by Gloucester Saint
From

[Gloucester Saint]

7 minutes ago, iansums said:

Apparently I'm far right................and so is my wife.

I don’t think you are.

Shouldn't be allowed to vote though 😉

[iansums]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

The interesting thing is I don't think anyone on here has labelled you. I recall you doing it to yourself on occasions, including self describing yourself as islamophobic or similar - apologies If I remembered the wrong word that you sued. You don't strike me as that though and your views generally don't present as extreme. 

Kind words mate, thank you. Just my self-deprecating humour, I don't consider myself far right either. I think all of us bar one or two extreme posters actually hold very similar views. I just find all of this incredibly sad really.

[Turkish]

Just now, iansums said:

Kind words mate, thank you. Just my self-deprecating humour, I don't consider myself far right either. I think all of us bar one or two extreme posters actually hold very similar views. I just find all of this incredibly sad really.

I dont even know why you're still posting on this thread tbh fella

[iansums]

4 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

I don’t think you are.

Shouldn't be allowed to vote though 😉

What about the wife?

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, iansums said:

What about the wife?

tainted by your right wing views. No.

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, iansums said:

What about the wife?

I’ll consult with relevant authorities in Romney Marsh and let you know.

[egg]

21 minutes ago, sockeye said:

I dont think being police should be a protected characteristic and this statement rings alarm bells in my head, like it’s unjustified to hate the police when they drop shocker after shocker and are symptomatic of a general institutional failing in this country

that said I dont like the violence

I prefer the judge's approach. The police should be protected from violence. Dislike them, sure, hate them if you must, but acting on that with abuse or violence has no place. 

[egg]

19 minutes ago, iansums said:

Kind words mate, thank you. Just my self-deprecating humour, I don't consider myself far right either. I think all of us bar one or two extreme posters actually hold very similar views. I just find all of this incredibly sad really.

I agree that most of us are actually on the same page, albeit we come at it from different angels. And yep, it's incredibly sad, and it's hard to envisage a cheery ending. 

[badgerx16]

Masked men in Belfast are stopping NHS staff on their way to work and demanding to be shown their NHS credentials.

[badgerx16]

Justifiable reaction to the attempted beheading ? A local resident standing in front of his burned out house.

Edited 5 hours ago by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

One of the rioters from the Novak protest appearing in Court....

"He said he was not a racist, was "angry in the moment and lost himself" and said he has two children with a third on the way, the barrister says.

Crawford has 19 convictions for 33 offences including battery, robbery, burglary and shoplifting.

On one occasion, he broke a partner's front teeth, punched her unconscious and when she woke up told her he had put bleach in her hair, the court is told."

 

 

[hypochondriac]

55 minutes ago, egg said:

I was with you until the last bit. There's no "rather" about dealing with violent protestors, but a necessity. 

I'm not surprised that people consider there to be a double standard given some of the incredibly harsh sentences for some who did not engage in violent disorder in double quick time compared to the lack of meaningful action on immigration over decades. No wonder people are frustrated which doesn't justify violence but it certainly explains it.

[hypochondriac]

56 minutes ago, sockeye said:

I dont think being police should be a protected characteristic and this statement rings alarm bells in my head, like it’s unjustified to hate the police when they drop shocker after shocker and are symptomatic of a general institutional failing in this country

that said I dont like the violence

Tbf a lot of it is poor guidance that the police are following rather than individual police themselves (although obviously mistakes happen.)

[whelk]

I can only conclude SOG has had therapy and his therapist concluded that the masochism of posting in the Lounge was not good for his development.
  

[whelk]

27 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Masked men in Belfast are stopping NHS staff on their way to work and demanding to be shown their NHS credentials.

The northern Irish have always loved a balaclava and a riot 

[The Kraken]

22 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

One of the rioters from the Novak protest appearing in Court....

"He said he was not a racist, was "angry in the moment and lost himself" and said he has two children with a third on the way, the barrister says.

Crawford has 19 convictions for 33 offences including battery, robbery, burglary and shoplifting.

On one occasion, he broke a partner's front teeth, punched her unconscious and when she woke up told her he had put bleach in her hair, the court is told."

Well he sounds lovely.

[whelk]

22 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

One of the rioters from the Novak protest appearing in Court....

"He said he was not a racist, was "angry in the moment and lost himself" and said he has two children with a third on the way, the barrister says.

Crawford has 19 convictions for 33 offences including battery, robbery, burglary and shoplifting.

On one occasion, he broke a partner's front teeth, punched her unconscious and when she woke up told her he had put bleach in her hair, the court is told."

 

 

They need to punish some of these crimes with chemical castration to stop these sort of pieces of shit procreating. 

[egg]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm not surprised that people consider there to be a double standard given some of the incredibly harsh sentences for some who did not engage in violent disorder in double quick time compared to the lack of meaningful action on immigration over decades. No wonder people are frustrated which doesn't justify violence but it certainly explains it.

They're entirely different issues, and violent disorder must be addressed strongly, especially if it's possibly the tip of an iceberg. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

They're entirely different issues, and violent disorder must be addressed strongly, especially if it's possibly the tip of an iceberg. 

My point is that they are linked. Lack of action on immigration over decades is unacceptable and has led to rising anger which has then seen rising levels of violent disorder. I don't support the disorder or want it to happen but it's a fact that had this issue been dealt with before now we wouldn't be seeing scenes like we are seeing on this scale. 

[hypochondriac]

35 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

One of the rioters from the Novak protest appearing in Court....

"He said he was not a racist, was "angry in the moment and lost himself" and said he has two children with a third on the way, the barrister says.

Crawford has 19 convictions for 33 offences including battery, robbery, burglary and shoplifting.

On one occasion, he broke a partner's front teeth, punched her unconscious and when she woke up told her he had put bleach in her hair, the court is told."

 

 

Fucking hell and to think we have to share a city with these people. 

[benjii]

46 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

One of the rioters from the Novak protest appearing in Court....

"He said he was not a racist, was "angry in the moment and lost himself" and said he has two children with a third on the way, the barrister says.

Crawford has 19 convictions for 33 offences including battery, robbery, burglary and shoplifting.

On one occasion, he broke a partner's front teeth, punched her unconscious and when she woke up told her he had put bleach in her hair, the court is told."

 

 

Just salt of the earth working class, and definitely not a massive fucking prick who's a much bigger strain on the state than 99% of immigrants.

[whelk]

53 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

One of the rioters from the Novak protest appearing in Court....

"He said he was not a racist, was "angry in the moment and lost himself" and said he has two children with a third on the way, the barrister says.

Crawford has 19 convictions for 33 offences including battery, robbery, burglary and shoplifting.

On one occasion, he broke a partner's front teeth, punched her unconscious and when she woke up told her he had put bleach in her hair, the court is told."

 

 

And there was this one too

 

[egg]

21 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

My point is that they are linked. Lack of action on immigration over decades is unacceptable and has led to rising anger which has then seen rising levels of violent disorder. I don't support the disorder or want it to happen but it's a fact that had this issue been dealt with before now we wouldn't be seeing scenes like we are seeing on this scale. 

They're linked only in that some yobs see the immigration issue as a(nother) reason/excuse to be violent. No normal person, with an issue about immigration, links that problem to violence. 

You've seen the form of some of those toe rags sentenced today. Absolute stains on society who saw an opportunity and took it. 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

One of the rioters from the Novak protest appearing in Court....

"He said he was not a racist, was "angry in the moment and lost himself" and said he has two children with a third on the way, the barrister says.

Crawford has 19 convictions for 33 offences including battery, robbery, burglary and shoplifting.

On one occasion, he broke a partner's front teeth, punched her unconscious and when she woke up told her he had put bleach in her hair, the court is told."

 

 

He said to the Court that he was "disgusted" by his actions at the Novak protest. I assume he wasn't disgusted by his actions for any of his other offenses.

[egg]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

One of the rioters from the Novak protest appearing in Court....

"He said he was not a racist, was "angry in the moment and lost himself" and said he has two children with a third on the way, the barrister says.

Crawford has 19 convictions for 33 offences including battery, robbery, burglary and shoplifting.

On one occasion, he broke a partner's front teeth, punched her unconscious and when she woke up told her he had put bleach in her hair, the court is told."

 

 

3 years for that charmer. 

Edited 4 hours ago by egg

[egg]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

He said to the Court that he was "disgusted" by his actions at the Novak protest. I assume he wasn't disgusted by his actions for any of his other offenses.

And "angry in a moment" that he chose to involve himself in. Not easy to mitigate for a bloke like that though. 

[revolution saint]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I agree that most of us are actually on the same page, albeit we come at it from different angels. And yep, it's incredibly sad, and it's hard to envisage a cheery ending. 

Let's not bring any more religion in this eh?

[hypochondriac]

30 minutes ago, egg said:

They're linked only in that some yobs see the immigration issue as a(nother) reason/excuse to be violent. No normal person, with an issue about immigration, links that problem to violence. 

You've seen the form of some of those toe rags sentenced today. Absolute stains on society who saw an opportunity and took it. 

Maybe that's true. If it is then surely the answer is still to deal with the immigration issues in a meaningful way to prevent idiots from being given the opportunities to cause disorder. We know in other incidents of violent disorder there was a percentage of mindless thugs but also others who swelled the numbers who wanted to protest and express dissatisfaction at the situation. 

Edited 3 hours ago by hypochondriac

[iansums]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Maybe that's true. If it is then surely the answer is still to deal with the immigration issues in a meaningful way to prevent idiots from being given the opportunities to cause disorder. We know in other incidents of violent disorder there was a percentage of mindless thugs but also others who swelled the numbers who wanted to protest and express dissatisfaction at the situation. 

Agreed. You could be angered by the death of George Floyd but not felt the need to pull a statue down. There are normally underlying reasons for violent disorder/riots but that is no justification for them.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

One of the rioters from the Novak protest appearing in Court....

"He said he was not a racist, was "angry in the moment and lost himself" and said he has two children with a third on the way, the barrister says.

Crawford has 19 convictions for 33 offences including battery, robbery, burglary and shoplifting.

On one occasion, he broke a partner's front teeth, punched her unconscious and when she woke up told her he had put bleach in her hair, the court is told."

 

 

Well, as long as he's not racist.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

 

2 hours ago, iansums said:

Apparently I'm far right................and so is my wife.

Consider yourself...

Labelled. 🙂

And your wife.

[Farmer Saint]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I honestly believe that a large proportion of the so called far right are just working class or largely non political people who are unhappy with the rate of immigration and the problems it has caused in their communities. If this was attempted to be dealt with effectively then it wouldn't be as big of a problem as it is. Successive governments don't want to do that though they would rather lock up the people doing the protesting (along with the idiots doing burning, violence etc).

Didn't immigration come down massively last year though?

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

Well he sounds lovely.

I wonder where these stereotypes come from..?

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Didn't immigration come down massively last year though?

The rate or illegal and legal immigration is still massively too high. Illegal immigrants are still allowed to rock up here and we are too slow in dealing with them. A percentage of them will commit crimes whilst here. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

The rate or illegal and legal immigration is still massively too high. Illegal immigrants are still allowed to rock up here and we are too slow in dealing with them. A percentage of them will commit crimes whilst here. 

A percentage of everyone in society will commit crime, and immigrants aren't more likely to commit crime than others. The immigration issue is an issue, but the immigrant crime point is a red herring. 

[hypochondriac]

12 minutes ago, egg said:

A percentage of everyone in society will commit crime, and immigrants aren't more likely to commit crime than others. The immigration issue is an issue, but the immigrant crime point is a red herring. 

Not sure what you mean by a red herring, I was stating a fact. If you view our country like a house, well we already have some existing scumbags inside our house doing terrible things that we need to deal with. If we invite more people inside and then a percentage of them commit crimes as well (often at a higher rate depending on the country they come from) then obviously that's going to get people more animated. The first load of scumbags committing crime is unavoidable. The second lot commiting crimes is a conscious choice made by governments of the day. 

Edited 2 hours ago by hypochondriac

[egg]

27 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Not sure what you mean by a red herring, I was stating a fact. If you view our country like a house, well we already have some existing scumbags inside our house doing terrible things that we need to deal with. If we invite more people inside and then a percentage of them commit crimes as well (often at a higher rate depending on the country they come from) then obviously that's going to get people more animated. The first load of scumbags committing crime is unavoidable. The second lot commiting crimes is a conscious choice made by governments of the day. 

Saying that more people= more crime is stating the obvious. That's an inevitability if a growing population, however it grows. 

I took your original point to be a suggestion that immigrants are more likely to commit crime than non immigrants. If that was your point, it's incorrect. 

[hypochondriac]

15 minutes ago, egg said:

Saying that more people= more crime is stating the obvious. That's an inevitability if a growing population, however it grows. 

I took your original point to be a suggestion that immigrants are more likely to commit crime than non immigrants. If that was your point, it's incorrect. 

That wasn't my point. My point was that allowing levels of legal and illegal immigrants into the country at a rate that the electorate has repeatedly voted against is going to cause problems. One of those problems is that a percentage of them are going to commit crimes. It is true to say that immigrants from certain nations will commit crimes at a higher rate than the average brit and that some immigrants from certain nations are on average more culturally incompatible with our country and its values. Of course the word immigrant encompasses a wide range of people but when someone who enters our country illegally, is given leave to remain or is here whilst the slow process is made to deport them and they commit a crime then of course people are going to be upset by that. Those atrocities are largely avoidable and if these cases were being properly dealt with it would reduce the chances of them happening. They are clearly distinct things from native brits being scumbags- as objectionable as that is.

[egg]

15 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That wasn't my point. My point was that allowing levels of legal and illegal immigrants into the country at a rate that the electorate has repeatedly voted against is going to cause problems. One of those problems is that a percentage of them are going to commit crimes. It is true to say that immigrants from certain nations will commit crimes at a higher rate than the average brit and that some immigrants from certain nations are on average more culturally incompatible with our country and its values. Of course the word immigrant encompasses a wide range of people but when someone who enters our country illegally, is given leave to remain or is here whilst the slow process is made to deport them and they commit a crime then of course people are going to be upset by that. Those atrocities are largely avoidable and if these cases were being properly dealt with it would reduce the chances of them happening. They are clearly distinct things from native brits being scumbags- as objectionable as that is.

That's a very long way to say that you want less immigration, and that more people = more crime. We're going nowhere here so I'll tap out. 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

I wonder where these stereotypes come from..?

Well, that particular one comes from Wilton Avenue.

[hypochondriac]

34 minutes ago, egg said:

That's a very long way to say that you want less immigration, and that more people = more crime. We're going nowhere here so I'll tap out. 

Of course I want less immigration. A majority of the British people want that too. More of particular types of people will equal a higher rate of crime. Not difficult to understand but I'm fine with you tapping out.

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

Didn't immigration come down massively last year though?

Yes, but apparently that's still not enough for some. 

Trying to have a rational conversation with the knuckle-draggers who kicked off in Portswood about timescales for implementing new policies or the impact of budget limitations for tackling human trafficking would be a bit like trying to explain the offside rule to a pigeon.