Israel

[Fan The Flames]

17 minutes ago, whelk said:

Hard to know whether to support Iran or not I guess. And imagine if Iran get angry none of us will be safe?

Iran need to be managed, they appear to be a massive agitator with poor relationships with a lot of countries. I guess the US are telling them not to get emboldened by Israel/Gaza war.

[egg]

20 minutes ago, whelk said:

Hard to know whether to support Iran or not I guess. And imagine if Iran get angry none of us will be safe?

What do we know that Iran have actually done directly (or could do) that endangers us? They seemingly supply militia groups/terrorists/Syria financially and otherwise, but in what ways do they directly pose a risk to the west? The US and Israeli could wipe out any aerial threat that they pose in a heartbeat.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

I rest my case. What else are you not doing since 7/10? Have you been chuckling at Mrs Brown’s Boys whilst people are being massacred?

I would doubt the reliability and sanity of anybody who "chuckles" at Mrs Brown's Boys.

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, egg said:

What do we know that Iran have actually done directly (or could do) that endangers us? They seemingly supply militia groups/terrorists/Syria financially and otherwise, but in what ways do they directly pose a risk to the west? The US and Israeli could wipe out any aerial threat that they pose in a heartbeat.

Dirty bomb.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Dirty bomb.

 

Doing that would be on a level of stupidity from a state that we've never seen before, and the response would be unimaginable. Iran would know that. 

What have they done to make anyone think that they'd do that? It seems that we're programmed to believe stuff like that.

[Turkish]

30 minutes ago, egg said:

 

Doing that would be on a level of stupidity from a state that we've never seen before, and the response would be unimaginable. Iran would know that. 

What have they done to make anyone think that they'd do that? It seems that we're programmed to believe stuff like that.

Course we are. Everything is a propaganda machine conditioning people to think a certain way. People slam Matt Le Tissier for his views and maybe he has gone a little bit weird but his fundamental point is right, don’t take everything you see and read at face value. 

[benjii]

3 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

The US have attacked Iranian militia on the Iraq/Syria border after a US base was attacked. Things are popping up over the region.

I mentioned Iran's Shia militia in an earlier post. This is a warning from USA. Any major escalation will come when Hezbollah gets fully stuck in after the ground war starts (not the odd rocket from Lebanon but large-scale deployment of precision weapons that end up hitting water plants, power plants, population centres etc) but Iran will, or should, be careful to ensure they do not play a direct role as that will cause a big problem.

Edited 27 October, 2023 by benjii

[egg]

12 minutes ago, benjii said:

I mentioned Iran's Shia militia in an earlier post. This is a warning from USA. Any major escalation will come when Hezbollah gets fully stuck in after the ground war starts (not the odd rocket from Lebanon but large-scale deployment of precision weapons that end up hitting water plants, power plants, population centres etc) but Iran will, or should, be careful to ensure they do not play a direct role as that will cause a big problem.

Yep. If this is can be contained to a Hamas/Israel issue, with Hezbollah sticking their oar in, I think must would see that as the best outcome. I suspect (hope) that Iran's involvement will be the same as the US, ie financial and hardware support, but no direct involvement. 

[aintforever]

28 minutes ago, Turkish said:

his fundemental point is correct don’t believe everything you are told to think. 

Who is telling you to think what?

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Who is telling you to think what?

Can’t read my answer above? The geniuses on here we have experts on every scenario know to man kind (that’s not you by the way) 

[aintforever]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Can’t read my answer above? The geniuses on here we have experts on every scenario know to man kind (that’s not you by the way) 

To be fair, compared to you pretty much everyone is an expert on most subjects. 

[Turkish]

Just now, aintforever said:

To be fair, compared to you pretty much everyone is an expert on most subjects. 

Good to read, the day someone as dense as you starts to agree with me that’s the day I know it’s over 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

47 minutes ago, Turkish said:

The people on saintsweb. We have experts in every field on here. 

And one day, some of us will be allowed to leave their fields and mix with normal folks. 🙂

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

And one day, some of us will be allowed to leave their fields and mix with normal folks. 🙂

To be fair you are one of the most reasonable people on here 👍

[whelk]

I only believe Netanyahu and Katie Hopkins. 

[whelk]

Sorry to be light hearted, people are dying

[Weston Super Saint]

3 hours ago, egg said:

 

Doing that would be on a level of stupidity from a state that we've never seen before, and the response would be unimaginable. Iran would know that. 

What have they done to make anyone think that they'd do that? It seems that we're programmed to believe stuff like that.

To clarify, my response wasn't saying they will, just answering what they "could do" that would hurt us.  But whilst it's an option, it would be foolish to overlook it.

[egg]

Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

To clarify, my response wasn't saying they will, just answering what they "could do" that would hurt us.  But whilst it's an option, it would be foolish to overlook it.

Gotcha. Sure they "could", in the same way that a nuclear country "could" have nuked anyone in the last 70 years. If Iran had any desire to lash out at the west (I still don't know where the idea comes from that they would do so) the wests military power, are reasons why Iran wouldn't dare have a serious nibble. 

 

[Toadhall Saint]

58 minutes ago, whelk said:

Sorry to be light hearted, people are  being murdered

Corrected it for you.

[egg]

Getting away from the flirting/COVID nonsense, it's gone from awful to hellish in Gaza. Ambulances can't be called, so the drivers are just driving toward the explosions (bigger than before - different weapons seemingly being used).

Carnage. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67246761?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=653cb17f8ae7803bb6845422%26Bombardment in northern Gaza on 'a scale we've never seen before'%262023-10-28T07%3A01%3A06.139Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:12b3ca02-f9cf-4e4e-85d7-2f720e7b5fa7&pinned_post_asset_id=653cb17f8ae7803bb6845422&pinned_post_type=share

[badgerx16]

36 minutes ago, egg said:

Getting away from the flirting/COVID nonsense, it's gone from awful to hellish in Gaza. Ambulances can't be called, so the drivers are just driving toward the explosions (bigger than before - different weapons seemingly being used).

Carnage. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67246761?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=653cb17f8ae7803bb6845422%26Bombardment in northern Gaza on 'a scale we've never seen before'%262023-10-28T07%3A01%3A06.139Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:12b3ca02-f9cf-4e4e-85d7-2f720e7b5fa7&pinned_post_asset_id=653cb17f8ae7803bb6845422&pinned_post_type=share

How many dead Palestinian children balance the books ?

[egg]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

How many dead Palestinian children balance the books ?

There's no redlines according to Biden, so the sky's the limit for Israel, sadly.

Interesting press release from the Israeli air force this morning. They said their "goal is clear - to destroy everything touched by the hand of Hamas". That's pretty much all of Gaza, and somewhat different to Hamas members and Hamas infrastructure. 

 

[whelk]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

How many dead Palestinian children balance the books ?

Interesting those that think in numbers and ignore motive

[AlexLaw76]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

There's no redlines according to Biden, so the sky's the limit for Israel, sadly.

Interesting press release from the Israeli air force this morning. They said their "goal is clear - to destroy everything touched by the hand of Hamas". That's pretty much all of Gaza, and somewhat different to Hamas members and Hamas infrastructure. 

 

It is widely acknowledge that the Hamas infrastructure is interwoven into Gaza'n society.

Either way, at least half of Gaza will be flattened, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. It is a tried and tested means of eradicating an enemy like Hamas, in the short term at least.

[egg]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Interesting those that think in numbers and ignore motive

We could go around all day about the motive Whelk. If it really is (at least in part) to make Israel safer, this action will achieve the opposite. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

It is widely acknowledge that the Hamas infrastructure is interwoven into Gaza'n society.

Either way, at least half of Gaza will be flattened, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. It is a tried and tested means of eradicating an enemy like Hamas, in the short term at least.

Yep, but Israel have a duty to protect civilians. They can't bomb a houseful of innocent people because a few Hamas members have once had a chat in the kitchen, but they do.

But yep, nowt we can do. I agree that they'll subdue Hamas short term, but they'll rebrand and every Palestinian of fighting age will be desperate to sign up and have a crack at Israel. Sad state of affairs.

Anyways, it's football today, so that's me done on politics. 

[whelk]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

We could go around all day about the motive Whelk. If it really is (at least in part) to make Israel safer, this action will achieve the opposite. 

The situation is surely grim but only a fool wouldn’t expect this sort of response from Israel. Ultimately Hamas caused this situation and they foresaw it. They put an increase in anti Israel sympathies over their own people which sums up what cunts they are

[badgerx16]

33 minutes ago, whelk said:

Interesting those that think in numbers and ignore motive

Do you think eliminating the Gaza Strip and it's entire population will make Israel safe from future terrorism ?

[badgerx16]

34 minutes ago, egg said:

There's no redlines according to Biden, so the sky's the limit for Israel, sadly.

Interesting press release from the Israeli air force this morning. They said their "goal is clear - to destroy everything touched by the hand of Hamas". That's pretty much all of Gaza, and somewhat different to Hamas members and Hamas infrastructure. 

 

If they are targeting the tunnel systems they are more than likely killing the hostages.

[badgerx16]

27 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

It is widely acknowledge that the Hamas infrastructure is interwoven into Gaza'n society.

Either way, at least half of Gaza will be flattened, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. It is a tried and tested means of eradicating an enemy like Hamas, in the short term at least.

And that is the key point. The next round of violence is waiting somewhere down the road, and all the current action will do is make that time even more deadly.

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Do you think eliminating the Gaza Strip and it's entire population will make Israel safe from future terrorism ?

Safer than it was 3 weeks ago. How many dances round Israeli corpses are the Hamas fuckers sending  to their mums on WhatsApp today?

[badgerx16]

Just now, whelk said:

Safer than it was 3 weeks ago. How many dances round Israeli corpses are the Hamas fuckers sending  to their mums on WhatsApp today?

Whelk, I don't disagree with you over Hamas, I just don't see the ultimate solution to the problem of what to do in that region coming off the weapons mount of an IDF fighter jet.

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

And that is the key point. The next round of violence is waiting somewhere down the road, and all the current action will do is make that time even more deadly.

If you stop the means of terror you can argue (probably correctly) about increase in sympathisers but from wiping out Isis there are potentially more sitting at home hating the West but they are not beheading western lorry drivers too much these days. 

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Whelk, I don't disagree with you over Hamas, I just don't see the ultimate solution to the problem of what to do in that region coming off the weapons mount of an IDF fighter jet.

I don’t disagree btw

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

If you stop the means of terror you can argue (probably correctly) about increase in sympathisers but from wiping out Isis there are potentially more sitting at home hating the West but they are not beheading western lorry drivers too much these days. 

ISIS are a bit different to Hamas and the other Palestinian groups. Rather than have a specific target, Israel, to act against, ISIS are a concept whose central  point of existence is nihilism in the name of their interpretation of Islam. Disparate Islamic terror groups around the World will swear allegiance to IS without forming part of a coherent campaign; as well as the rump that is still active in the Middle East, there is a large region of sub-Saharan Africa that is plagued with IS affiliates, there are also groups in places like Indonesia and the Phillipines.

[sadoldgit]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/200-held-as-jewish-group-shuts-nycs-grand-central-calling-for-gaza-ceasefire/amp/
 

Appaling that we abstained in the UN vote for a humanitarian ceasefire. At least these people have the balls and the decency to stand up against the butchery of innocents.

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/200-held-as-jewish-group-shuts-nycs-grand-central-calling-for-gaza-ceasefire/amp/
 

Appaling that we abstained in the UN vote for a humanitarian ceasefire. At least these people have the balls and the decency to stand up against the butchery of innocents.

Abstaining or not. It makes no difference.

the UN does bugger all. Did not stop Russia, did not stop the US from incinerating Syria, Did not stop us invading Iraq and aint stopping Israel

[egg]

9 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Abstaining or not. It makes no difference.

the UN does bugger all. Did not stop Russia, did not stop the US from incinerating Syria, Did not stop us invading Iraq and aint stopping Israel

If it stopped the settlements that they determined were illegal we may not be where we are. They didn't though, and although I I agree they are powerless, the vote shows world opinion. 

[AlexLaw76]

[whelk]

Good long read though suspect never to be read by the  ‘from the river to the sea’  chanting simpletons 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

 

 

[benjii]

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246?t=clQSOaot8cse3_PjzsAXJQ&s=19

Interesting interview that I think sums up the non-partisan middle ground very well.

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246?t=clQSOaot8cse3_PjzsAXJQ&s=19

Interesting interview that I think sums up the non-partisan middle ground very well.

Hard to argue with any of what he says there.

[egg]

13 hours ago, whelk said:

Good long read though suspect never to be read by the  ‘from the river to the sea’  chanting simpletons 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

 

 

I couldn't get past the paywall. The author is of Jewish descent, so is it from an impartial perspective? 

[egg]

4 hours ago, benjii said:

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246?t=clQSOaot8cse3_PjzsAXJQ&s=19

Interesting interview that I think sums up the non-partisan middle ground very well.

Thanks. That's a good, balanced read. 

[whelk]

48 minutes ago, egg said:

I couldn't get past the paywall. The author is of Jewish descent, so is it from an impartial perspective? 

Might be able to if read direct in Twitter.

https://x.com/simonmontefiore/status/1718563282536063397?s=46&t=t-JdmEIKBz0VQY714SRLhQ
 

Cant really say if anything can be truly impartial but I thought balanced. Fair play Egg you seem keen to listen to other views on this subject

[sadoldgit]

To be fair I don’t think there are many partisan posters on this thread. Most of us understand that the issues are complex, that the issues have been boiling over for decades and that there are no quick fixes. I think that we also understand that there have to be huge compromises made on both sides for this ever to be resolved. This is why politicians need to stop taking sides and look at bringing pressure on all those who can make a difference to work towards firstly a meaningful ceasefire and then towards ways of finding a peaceful solution that works for all. 
This has nothing to do with antisemitism or being pro Hamas, but everything to do with recognising that both sides have a right to exist in peace wherever final boundary lines are drawn.

Sadly it seems almost impossible at the moment to take a moderate, centrist position without being labelled a supporter of one side or the other. Good to see more wise, rational voices pointing out the obvious though.

Also it is worth pointing out that if you listen to moderate Muslims, the chant “from the river to the sea” is all about ending the oppression of the Palestinians and has nothing to do with wiping Israel off of the map. I think even us “simpletons” understand that it has been hijacked by Hamas and that those chanting it on London rallies are using it in a completely different context.

Edited 29 October, 2023 by sadoldgit
Added text

[egg]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Might be able to if read direct in Twitter.

https://x.com/simonmontefiore/status/1718563282536063397?s=46&t=t-JdmEIKBz0VQY714SRLhQ
 

Cant really say if anything can be truly impartial but I thought balanced. Fair play Egg you seem keen to listen to other views on this subject

Thanks for the link Whelk. That's a really good, and thought provoking piece. There are few parts that I can't agree with, not the least the denial of the 1948 Nakba and his belief that the Israeli government seek to avoid Palestinian deaths. 

On the other side of the coin though, I'd forgotten about the 1993 suicide bombings - as much as the 7/10 attacks did not happen on a vacuum, that's a good reminder that some of the Israeli behaviour (and the overall mess) has not happened in a vacuum either.

If anyone wants to read the article (I recommend reading it in full) it's here without a paywall. 

https://archive.ph/2023.10.28-061758/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

[Guan 2.0]

https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1718684395354116347?s=20

 

Full disclosure: I started following this account during the russian invasion of Ukraine, and they are admittedly anti-russia. I just wanted to claify there is an existing bias. 

 

 

 

Edited 29 October, 2023 by Guan 2.0

[whelk]

12 minutes ago, Guan 2.0 said:

https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1718684395354116347?s=20

 

Full disclosure: I started following this account during the russian invasion of Ukraine, and they are admittedly anti-russia. I just wanted to claify there is an existing bias. 

 

 

 

Peace loving protesters. Some vile hateful views around and lots of them feel more enabled. Palestine allows them to come out.

 

[whelk]

8 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

that those chanting it on London rallies are using it in a completely different context

Pray tell how you know this?