The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?

[hypochondriac]

17 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Yeah, it does seem to be that way, but those frictions will have to come home to roost at some point. Really not a fan of them tbh, they've got so many polices i think would be disastrous - Legalising class A drugs and the sex trade, and their stance on open borders and nato/defence (i.e., leaving nato and expelling Nato/US forces from british bases - does Polanski work for russia / china?!)

Labour need to get their house in order or they're going to get consumed by the far left, and we'll be left with a choice between two ideologically very opposed parties in the greens and reform, with the centerground completely abandoned - i.e., the country will start to become ungovernable. 

Anyway, maybe you'll be right and Labour see them off.

It's only a matter of time before the sectarian vote coalesces into their own party and that's when it will really be depressing with block voting and campaign ads in a different language. The Greens may have a temporary boost for now by appealing to the but that won't last and naive of them if they think it will. They will go for another Gaza supporting, Jew hating party that doesn't want to legalise all drugs and support drag queen story hour 

[AlexLaw76]

13 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's only a matter of time before the sectarian vote coalesces into their own party and that's when it will really be depressing with block voting and campaign ads in a different language. The Greens may have a temporary boost for now by appealing to the but that won't last and naive of them if they think it will. They will go for another Gaza supporting, Jew hating party that doesn't want to legalise all drugs and support drag queen story hour 

it wont be long before parts of Bradford or Birmingham are openly hostile to certain sections of 'society' (than they already are), and that booze is banned outright and such like.

Meanwhile, thousands more pour into the country completely unchecked.

 

Edited 11 hours ago by AlexLaw76

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

it wont be long before parts of Bradford or Birmingham are openly hostile to certain sections of 'society' (than they already are), and that booze is banned outright and such like.

Meanwhile, thousands more pour into the country completely unchecked.

 

If it wasn't my country and I wasn't emotionally invested I'd find it quite interesting to see how the current people in power act as the rise in sectarian politics becomes impossible to ignore. If democracy gets subverted and some regions start voting for things that are against our way of life what realistically can be done? If it has democratic weight behind it it will be pretty difficult to stop.

Edited 11 hours ago by hypochondriac

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

If it wouldn't my country and I wasn't emotionally invested I'd find it quite interesting to see how the current people in power act as the rise in sectarian politics becomes impossible to ignore. If democracy gets subverted and some regions start voting for things that are against our way of life what realistically can be done? If it has democratic weight behind it it will be pretty difficult to stop.

what makes it worse, there are plenty of utterly useful idiots who will will this on, for no other reason than to virtue signal.

The country is gone, we are in the slow decline of a great nation that will be split by weird sectarian lines, dominated by downtown shit holes in big cities. 

Whilst this is happening, those in power do fuck all about it. It is all very strange.

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

what makes it worse, there are plenty of utterly useful idiots who will will this on, for no other reason than to virtue signal.

The country is gone, we are in the slow decline of a great nation that will be split by weird sectarian lines, dominated by downtown shit holes in big cities. 

Whilst this is happening, those in power do fuck all about it. It is all very strange.

I don't think it's bad enough yet for anyone to really do much about it. Even reform don't want to go too far because they wont attract a more moderate voter that they need if they want to win anything. Israel Palestine has sped things up a bit. I don't think anyone would get elected who would do what needs doing.

[Gloucester Saint]

Terrible result for Starmer, Farage, and Badenoch. Lib Dem’s never do anything there anyway. Reform just ate up the Tory vote in that half of the constituency to the point the Tories lost their deposit. Very little new support. The only positive of the night was seeing Goodwin whining. Vile human being. 

Greens have a horrific leader who is as bad as Goodwin but agree with @Saint86 that the country is on its way to being ungovernable. Fuck Brexit for causing that. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Gloucester Saint

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Terrible result for Starmer, Farage, and Badenoch. Lib Dem’s never do anything there anyway. Reform just ate up the Tory vote in that half of the constituency to the point the Tories lost their deposit. Very little new support. The only positive of the night was seeing Goodwin whining. Vile human being. 

Greens have a horrific leader who is as bad as Goodwin but agree with @Saint86 that the country is on its way to being ungovernable. Fuck Brexit for causing that. 

Yep, and the Tory retort to the outcome was daft. Sure, highlight that Starmer has lost the room, but don't be saying that the Tories are the only credible vote in town when you've just lost your deposit and received confirmation that Reform have borrowed your shoes. 

My only other observation is that the voting doesn't suggest a lurch to the right from the masses, although the Greens ffs. 

 

[CB Fry]

Disappointing night for Sir Oink-a-lot.

[Farmer Saint]

That is a pretty funny result tbh. This country is a fucking basket case - we're getting what we deserve.

The right wants division. That's what we're getting, but not in the way they want it.

Edited 1 hour ago by Farmer Saint

[aintforever]

Fantastic result.

I'm not a big fan of some their policies but it's just great that the people rejected Reform. Feel a lot better about the country today.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

It was just too big a margin, for Labour to lose. No doubt people will talk about it being a smaller majority. But that's to be expected from a sitting government.

Checks result...oh...called that one wrong...

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Yep, and the Tory retort to the outcome was daft. Sure, highlight that Starmer has lost the room, but don't be saying that the Tories are the only credible vote in town when you've just lost your deposit and received confirmation that Reform have borrowed your shoes. 

My only other observation is that the voting doesn't suggest a lurch to the right from the masses, although the Greens ffs. 

 

I'm not sure we can read anything much into the results of one bye election. I would say it's a depressing glimpse intoba future where a party can have electoral success in traditionally left wing parts of the country by appealing to sectarian concerns. I'd have rather Labour won it to be honest.

[hypochondriac]

16 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

That is a pretty funny result tbh. This country is a fucking basket case - we're getting what we deserve.

The right wants division. That's what we're getting, but not in the way they want it.

I think the local elections in may will tell us a lot more about where we are. The temptation is to extrapolate what happened here to have a wider significance. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm not sure we can read anything much into the results of one bye election. I would say it's a depressing glimpse intoba future where a party can have electoral success in traditionally left wing parts of the country by appealing to sectarian concerns. I'd have rather Labour won it to be honest.

Your objection to a message to stop Islamaphobia isn't surprising. Sadly, we're becoming racially and religiously divided as a nation, but we can't have a system in which people applaud the Reform message but decry the Green message. 

[Farmer Saint]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think the local elections in may will tell us a lot more about where we are. The temptation is to extrapolate what happened here to have a wider significance. 

Local elections don't tend to show it tbh. Many local people don't vote in locals - they tend to be used by those looking to make a point.

Considering how shit Reform has shown to be when in local government, getting in will be a disaster for them ahead of the election.

[egg]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

Local elections don't tend to show it tbh. Many local people don't vote in locals - they tend to be used by those looking to make a point.

Considering how shit Reform has shown to be when in local government, getting in will be a disaster for them ahead of the election.

Indeed. A bye election is a great barometer of where the public are at imo. I take comfort that Reform didn't get the popular vote, and that the Greens are seen as the safe option tells me all I need to know about the state we're in. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Indeed. A bye election is a great barometer of where the public are at imo. I take comfort that Reform didn't get the popular vote, and that the Greens are seen as the safe option tells me all I need to know about the state we're in. 

I really don't think one bye election in a seat that has voted left wing for over 100 years with a large Muslim population and accusation of family voting and sectarian politics tells us much about the politics of the rest of the country to be honest. Commentators will be desperate to extrapolate though whoever had won. I think it does show how even traditional Labour voters feel betrayed and loathe the prime minister though.

Edited 1 hour ago by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

Your objection to a message to stop Islamaphobia isn't surprising. Sadly, we're becoming racially and religiously divided as a nation, but we can't have a system in which people applaud the Reform message but decry the Green message. 

Not sure why you are talking about nonsense like Islamophobia. I don't think any political party in this country should he engaging in sectarian politics. I would prefer a Labour victory over that sort of rubbish and that's before you mention the legalisation of drugs and sex work etc.

[badgerx16]

Labour should have selected Burnham, but I suppose the risk of losing one seat weighed less than keeping AB out.

In general, by-elections do throw up weird results.

Edited 1 hour ago by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Labour should have selected Burnham.

Indeed they hsould and probably would have won. Much more of a popular person than Starmer and would probably make a better PM.

[Saint86]

12 minutes ago, egg said:

Indeed. A bye election is a great barometer of where the public are at imo. I take comfort that Reform didn't get the popular vote, and that the Greens are seen as the safe option tells me all I need to know about the state we're in. 

You think Muslim voters supported legalising prostitution and sex work because it's the "safe option" 😅.

They've voted on sectarian lines because of Gaza, which has absolutely nothing to do with domestic politics or Manchester's local issues.

Edited 59 minutes ago by Saint86

[Saint86]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Indeed they hsould and probably would have won. Much more of a popular person than Starmer and would probably make a better PM.

Which is on Starmer and Rayner tbh. Neither wanted him anywhere near Westminster as he'd end up in the top job.

The labour party needs to get it's house in order... The Tories look to be done, and the lib Dems look to be utterly uninterested in entering government...

Edited 57 minutes ago by Saint86

[egg]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I really don't think one bye election in a seat that has voted left wing for over 100 years with a large Muslim population and accusation of family voting and sectarian politics tells us much about the politics of the rest of the country to be honest. Commentators will be desperate to extrapolate though whoever had won. I think it does show how even traditional Labour voters feel betrayed and loathe the prime minister though.

It tells us that the lurch to Reform isn't as strong as opinion polls suggest, and it also tells us that when it counts (voting) the public are more sensible than the opinion polls suggest. We were led to believe that this was bloody close, but in the event, it wasn't.

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

It tells us that the lurch to Reform isn't as strong as opinion polls suggest, and it also tells us that when it counts (voting) the public are more sensible than the opinion polls suggest. We were led to believe that this was bloody close, but in the event, it wasn't.

It tells us that in one constituency with very specific demographics, the swing from hardcore Labour to Reform is not as strong as some predicted now there is a more hard left wing choice coupled with concerning accusations of sectarian and family voting which obviously won't affect the majority of other constituencies. If this pattern holds up in other constituencies then it will be more notable but England is traditionally socially conservative do I can't see it myself. Did the reform vote out perform the traditional right wing vote for this constituency does anyone know? 

Edited 50 minutes ago by hypochondriac

[Sir Ralph]

25 minutes ago, egg said:

Your objection to a message to stop Islamaphobia isn't surprising. Sadly, we're becoming racially and religiously divided as a nation, but we can't have a system in which people applaud the Reform message but decry the Green message. 

Block voting by certain groups is happening across the country in specific areas. I have to deal with local politics now and again and the election is May will start to show this. It’s very very very naive to say this isn’t happening.
 

Some elected politicians will be elected on the Gaza issue and other parties will be dependent on the vote of that group that they move to appease a group of people in order to get voted in. Those people then have a strong foothold in the decision making of those areas. Goodness knows what policy agreements those parties have with those groups of people.
 

I think people need to wake up to that because it is happening.  

Edited 48 minutes ago by Sir Ralph

[CB Fry]

17 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Labour should have selected Burnham

Would have been a fucking disaster if they did because there would be no guarantee he would have won - the byelection would have been even more of a circus - plus Labour would definitely lose the Manchester mayor race as well.

 

Edited 48 minutes ago by CB Fry

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Block voting by certain groups is happening across the country. I have to deal with local politics and the election is May will start to show this. It’s very very very naive to say this isn’t happening.
 

Some elected politicians will be elected on the Gaza issue and other parties will be dependent on the vote of that group that they move to appease a group of people in order to get voted in. Those people then have a strong foothold in the decision making of those areas.
 

I think people need to wake up to that because it is happening.  

Who was the politician that brought up some airport in Pakistan or wherever as if that was a concern for a UK politician? More of that would be terrible tbh.

[egg]

20 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Not sure why you are talking about nonsense like Islamophobia. I don't think any political party in this country should he engaging in sectarian politics. I would prefer a Labour victory over that sort of rubbish and that's before you mention the legalisation of drugs and sex work etc.

Because the 'sectarianism' you are complaining about referenced ending 'islamaphobia', something you dispute as being an actual thing. 

I would have preferred Labour too fwiw. The Greens ain't my cup of herbal tea at all. 

[trousers]

Reading through this thread, I think confirmation bias is the true winner of the day

[sadoldgit]

It’s sorry state of affairs where people vote for who they don’t want in order to keep out people who they don’t want even more  but we are going to see even more of that over the next few years. Still, if people vote tactically to keep Reform out, that is no bad thing.

[Patrick Bateman]

Cough ... by-election, not "bye election" ... cough

[Patrick Bateman]

2 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

It’s sorry state of affairs where people vote for who they don’t want in order to keep out people who they don’t want even more  but we are going to see even more of that over the next few years. Still, if people vote tactically to keep Reform out, that is no bad thing.

I agree with you. But Greens are just as dangerous as Reform. Both are fruit cake parties that I pray never get anywhere near enough seats to make an difference. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Cough ... by-election, not "bye election" ... cough

The Greens want to legalise E's so no drama that some of us throw a random E in. 

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, egg said:

Because the 'sectarianism' you are complaining about referenced ending 'islamaphobia', something you dispute as being an actual thing. 

I would have preferred Labour too fwiw. The Greens ain't my cup of herbal tea at all. 

One among many other policies. Are you suggesting that sectarianism did not play a part and that family voting wasn't an issue? Plenty of more moderate voices are claiming the opposite 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, trousers said:

Reading through this thread, I think confirmation bias is the true winner of the day

TBF I said Labour would keep the seat so I was clearly wrong. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Patrick Bateman said:

I agree with you. But Greens are just as dangerous as Reform. Both are fruit cake parties that I pray never get anywhere near enough seats to make an difference. 

Yep. Division with weed and incense is still division. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

One among many other policies. Are you suggesting that sectarianism did not play a part and that family voting wasn't an issue? Plenty of more moderate voices are claiming the opposite 

Don't deflect from your ignorance of, and possible support for, Islamaphobia. 

[rallyboy]

Terrible night for Starmer, unmitigated disaster for Farage.

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

One among many other policies. Are you suggesting that sectarianism did not play a part and that family voting wasn't an issue? Plenty of more moderate voices are claiming the opposite 

The chief election official has said that family voting was not an issue.

Edited 28 minutes ago by badgerx16

[trousers]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Don't deflect from your ignorance of, and possible support for, Islamaphobia. 

Isn't a phobia an irrational fear of something? What if someone's 'fear' of Islam is rational, what's the name for that? 

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

I agree with you. But Greens are just as dangerous as Reform. Both are fruit cake parties that I pray never get anywhere near enough seats to make an difference. 

It's pretty difficult when the traditional parties are loathed so much and have let the country down to the degree that no one wants them in power. I can see why even non Muslim traditional Labour voters would consider the Greens just to give them something different on the left. There aren't many other places to turn which is a pretty sad state of affairs.

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Don't deflect from your ignorance of, and possible support for, Islamaphobia. 

Could we possibly try to have a sensible discussion without the silliness? I haven't gone out of my way to insult or misrepresented you I was attempting a reasonable discussion.

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Terrible night for Starmer, unmitigated disaster for Farage.

In what way is this result worse for Farage than Starmer?

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The chief election official has said that family voting was not an issue.

How would the chief election official know whether said family members were subject to "undue influence" or not? (Undue influence being illegal of course)

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

In what way is this result worse for Farage than Starmer?

Confirmation bias, per chance...?

Edited 22 minutes ago by trousers

[badgerx16]

History is littered with "shock" by-election results that ended up signifying little more than the electorate playing games before reverting to type in the next GE.

[hypochondriac]

I agree with this tweet. Will be interesting to see if the traditional green voter will now change.

[rallyboy]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

In what way is this result worse for Farage than Starmer?

Fairly simple - Starmer's national popularity is rock bottom, but Farage was riding high and looking to form the next government.

A few weeks ago Reform pencilled this in as an easy win - but they got battered by a plumber with some unworkable policies.

 

[egg]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Could we possibly try to have a sensible discussion without the silliness? I haven't gone out of my way to insult or misrepresented you I was attempting a reasonable discussion.

Me pointing out your views is not silliness, and if you find that uncomfortable, that's not my issue. 

There's a discussion going on, and I'll engage with you no further. 

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

How would the chief election official know whether said family members were subject to "undue influence" or not? (Undue influence being illegal of course)

How would those election observers who have made the allegations know, if the influence was exerted in the family home ? The claim is that people were being accompanied to the voting booth, which is illegal - and the officers at the polling station would be duty bound to stop it, and inform the Police officer stationed there.