Saints 1-2 Arsenal - Thank F**k it’s All Over Thread

[Roo1976]

3 hours ago, BotleySaint said:

To be fair, Smallbone was never Premier League quality. He did a decent job last year but should have been sold in the summer. 

He could probably do a decent job again next year. But I suspect his confidence is totally destroyed and a move away is probably best.

good, and take many more shit players aswell buy one get 2-3 free............................

[Matthew Le God]

24 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Bullshit

Why?

[Jack]

Don’t like to point the finger at an individual, but fuck me how many times has Smallbone defended like that and got us in the shit. 
 

Stands off one, stands off another, lets Odegard run the long way round him without even bothering to challenge. Seems a nice lad but I don’t want him in the squad next season

[Gloucester Saint]

1 hour ago, lambtiss said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=odegaard+goal+vs+saints&oq=odegaard+goal+vs+saints&gs_lcrp=EgxlZGdlX2FuZHJvaWQqBggAEEUYOTIGCAAQRRg50gEJMzAzODVqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:620f5af3,vid:Q9ovUNmGlYI,st:0

 

I was at the match but hadn't realised how poor Smallbones attempt to tackle Odegaard was, until I saw this.

Why he didn’t just clatter Odegaard and take the yellow beggars belief. Sort of thing Morgan S or Steven Davis would’ve done in the 90th minute with an opponent lining up.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

Also wouldn't be against Taylor being tested at CB throughout pre-season with a view to him being used there next season. It's been a while since we had proper experience at the back. 

He's literally not a CB, he's just filled in out of necessity in a dead rubber, end of season match. Why on Earth would you want to go into next season with more square pegs in round holes?

Clearly there has been something going on with him off the pitch to not be included in the matchday squad under three different managers, for a sustained period of time. Personally, I hope we offload him in summer as we've got four LBs in a massively bloated squad.

[suewhistle]

59 minutes ago, lambtiss said:

I was at the match but hadn't realised how poor Smallbones attempt to tackle Odegaard was, until I saw this.

It was in front of me but apart from mutterings from fans near me I hadn't realised either.. No strength, no pace, no urgency, no clever use of the body to put the attacker off.

In other news.. wasn't it good to have a focal point in attack? As he get fitter Stewart looks more of an asset. Sulemana at least was trying, and although his decision making isn't the best it would certainly help if we had more options for him when he breaks. We had four first choice defenders missing (KWP, THB, Bednarek and Stephens) but I'm not sure we missed them that much, although what conclusions you can draw from that is dificult to say..

Had a few post match pints for a change and it was good to have a natter with various people about things Saints: trips to Europe, beer and all those other important things. Glad that a few lurkers here have the same opinion as I do about certain posters. Sorry to hear of other personal news: life, let alone Saint's performances can be shit.

See you all next season. At least we can have a good break and won't have to wonder about the next manager conundrum: what a relief!

 

[Tommy Mulgrew]

Agreed, especially this:

9 minutes ago, suewhistle said:

Glad that a few lurkers here have the same opinion as I do about certain posters.

and

11 minutes ago, suewhistle said:

No strength, no pace, no urgency, no clever use of the body to put the attacker off.

 

[Sarnia Cherie]

And just to add another kick up the arse Saints leave with yet another embarrassing record to their name. Lowest points from home games ever in the Premier League. 

[Kenilworthy59]

After being treated for injury Saka left the pitch and then came back on without the permission of Darren Bond. The referee told him to go back off. The mandatory punishment for entering the pitch without the referee's permission is a yellow card. But not it seems if you play for Arsenal.

[richie]

How did the lap of appreciation go down?

 

[Saint_clark]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

He's literally not a CB, he's just filled in out of necessity in a dead rubber, end of season match. Why on Earth would you want to go into next season with more square pegs in round holes?

Clearly there has been something going on with him off the pitch to not be included in the matchday squad under three different managers, for a sustained period of time. Personally, I hope we offload him in summer as we've got four LBs in a massively bloated squad.

He played at centre back for Burnley the season they came up under Kompany. 

[rallyboy]

It's good to know that if one of our players had moved his arm towards the ball's flight and blocked a shot it definitely wouldn't have been a penalty.

Goodbye Premier League, well done on operating VAR so fairly, do thank all the crap refs for their small part in helping to make this appalling season so enjoyable - I believe Villa want a word too.

[the boy from saints]

55 minutes ago, richie said:

How did the lap of appreciation go down?

 

I felt it was appropriate. No big tannoy announcements. Just a moment to appreciate Rambo and Matty.

[davefizzy14]

Really pleased for Ross Stewart to get his first goal for us 😊 lovely header from Fernandes corner. Charlie Taylor was superb considering that was his first appearance for several months. Makes it even more baffling to think that both Martin and Jurić didnt play him. All that knowhow and pl experience. Ramsdale made an amazing save in the first half. Having watched match of the day, how did we not get a penalty in the first half for what looked like a blatant handball from Sugawara's shot. At the time during the game some of our players were convinced it was a penalty. Yet another poor decision going against us this season.

Edited May 26 by davefizzy14

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

10 hours ago, LeG said:

I’m so glad Smallbone has done that in front of Still. He’s a nice lad and a saints fan and I’ll always wish him well, but enough is enough. If you can’t learn from your mistakes or work on your weaknesses and improve them, then you’ve peaked. 

Good point. He not going to turn in to a Usain Bolt, but he can certainly bulk up and be stronger in challenges. Not only was the way he feebly tried to tackle Oudegaard bordering on criminal, moments later he inexplicably passed to one of their players in their penalty area creating a counter-attack. There were a couple of other really poor passes when under no pressure whatsoever.

This must rank as the worst cameo of the season. Total embarrassment.

[Wade Garrett]

7 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why?

Because he has no less physicality than THB, Bednarek or Stephens.

[Wade Garrett]

7 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

He's literally not a CB, he's just filled in out of necessity in a dead rubber, end of season match. Why on Earth would you want to go into next season with more square pegs in round holes?

Clearly there has been something going on with him off the pitch to not be included in the matchday squad under three different managers, for a sustained period of time. Personally, I hope we offload him in summer as we've got four LBs in a massively bloated squad.

I would rather keep Taylor and Wellington out of the 4 we have.  The others are garbage.

[Matthew Le God]

44 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Because he has no less physicality than THB, Bednarek or Stephens.

There is a huge difference in size and physicality between Taylor and Bednarek. Taylor is built like a fullback, because he is... a fullback. He can get by as a left sided centre back in a three because he can be with two other centre backs to help with that part of the game. Despite what some on this forum think, Bednarek is very good in aerial duels. 

 

 

Edited May 26 by Matthew Le God

[Football Special]

6 hours ago, rallyboy said:

It's good to know that if one of our players had moved his arm towards the ball's flight and blocked a shot it definitely wouldn't have been a penalty.

Goodbye Premier League, well done on operating VAR so fairly, do thank all the crap refs for their small part in helping to make this appalling season so enjoyable - I believe Villa want a word too.

Yeah how was that not a penalty?! 

[LiberalCommunist]

Had Smallbone's attempt be in a practice match with that lame attempt, you'd expect to get blasted by everyone. The fact there's been so little improvement on simple stuff, just ends any future hope here for him. Just go already.

[Wade Garrett]

3 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

There is a huge difference in size and physicality between Taylor and Bednarek. Taylor is built like a fullback, because he is... a fullback. He can get by as a left sided centre back in a three because he can be with two other centre backs to help with that part of the game. Despite what some on this forum think, Bednarek is very good in aerial duels. 

 

 

That stat you have just displayed demonstrates perfectly how stats can be misleading.  To suggest Bednarek is better in the air than Saliba or Milenkovic is ridiculous.  The also question the accuracy of those stats.

Taylor might be shorter than the other centre-backs, but he was still much better than them yesterday.  I also don’t know why he couldn’t play in a two.  Reuben Agboola isn’t tall but he played brilliantly with Chris Nicholl alongside him taking first knock.  Not much got past Gary Mabbutt.  Nathan Ake and Marc Guehi are under 6 feet.  
 

 

[Matthew Le God]

1 hour ago, Wade Garrett said:

Taylor might be shorter than the other centre-backs, but he was still much better than them yesterday.  I also don’t know why he couldn’t play in a two.  

Why do you think so few 5 foot 9 players play centre back in a two and instead play in other positions? Fabio Cannavaro could because he was exceptional at other aspects of the game. Taylor is not exceptional in other areas that make it worthwhile him switching from a fullback to a centre back in a two. He can get away with it in a three, because he'd have two other centre backs alongside him.

Edited May 26 by Matthew Le God

[Killers Knee]

5 foot 9 is not even man-sized

[Give it to Ron]

7 minutes ago, Killers Knee said:

5 foot 9 is not even man-sized

We have 3 over 6ft and still conceded over 60+ and often no-one near the scorer in a 5! 

[gio1saints]

I was disappointed with RS up until the goal. Kept falling over and being weak. 
Then he scored. Maybe that’s the bad luck curse on him lifted. 🤞. Maybe. 

Possibly KS most eye catching game if the season. Coincidence? Don’t think so. 

Flynn actually put full effort into this match- best he’s played possibly all season. Coincidence? Don’t think so. 
 

Yuki had his hands full all match against top wide players. Especially as his reinforcements was Jay R. WP sir. They won’t be that good in the championship. 
 

Les showed he will probably get a contract from an EPclub or top five leagues club. Not at Chelsea though imo. 
 

Wellington also did ok. As did our two CB’s apart from the first five mins. 
 

Jay Robinson showed that youthful enthusiasm is appreciated at SMS. His running around lots early doors was well received. He faded a bit thereafter but did enough to show he’s got something. That move and shot on target 2nd half was a big ceiling he’s broken through and will give him confidence 🤞for next season. Even KS gave him a little hug for it! Wouldn’t it be nice to see him and Tyler in same team, with KS next season? Entertaining football alert! 

Ramsdale is a class act. Period. Def upper EPL level imo or could play anywhere in Europe at a top team if he liked. 

Will Still plus his wife only arrived at 3pm and will have pics done today  . They watched from Directors. I managed to lip read a comment he made to her through my binoculars which was revealing -“ the croissant was a bit dry - but I will be coaching the catering team on Thursdays so expect improvements” to which she nodded. Make of that what you Will. 

[gio1saints]

22 hours ago, Noodles34 said:

did you actually go to the game, because that is absolute bollocks. 

Yes of course I was there. We did not play well nor show as much aggression as I’d if liked. I think. 🤣. I also watched us get thrashed and I’m sure GS was wary of being embarrassed in the final.
 

There was an air of we’re all going on a European tour hangover from the semi final amongst our support imo. which was more fun than the final gave to say. But I do admit I was absolutely slaughtered. Asleep under a bar table at noon somewhere in a Wetherspoons Cardiff god knows how I made the match. A bunch of us Saints forevers were in a Bristol night club the night before including some who still post here…they can vouch that perhaps my judgement may have been impaired at the Cardiff match…😎

[Graffito]

42 minutes ago, Killers Knee said:

5 foot 9 is not even man-sized

Says the poster who identifies as a small cartoon penguin.

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

1 hour ago, gio1saints said:

I was disappointed with RS up until the goal. Kept falling over and being weak.

I agree. Initially, he was playing like he'd won a competition to be in a team.

It does look like he has something but he really does need to bulk up. There's no excuse when you're doing this at a full time job not to spend time in the gym and add some muscle. You look at the Palace strike force, for instance, and they all look like units - and they're fast.

[Jonnyboy]

16 hours ago, the boy from saints said:

I felt it was appropriate. No big tannoy announcements. Just a moment to appreciate Rambo and Matty.

The whole squad deserved dogs abuse.

[Whitey Grandad]

10 hours ago, Killers Knee said:

5 foot 9 is not even man-sized

Steady on !

That's my height. The same as Paul Newman and Robert Redford.

But they're not real men. Apparently. 

[Whitey Grandad]

8 hours ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

I agree. Initially, he was playing like he'd won a competition to be in a team.

It does look like he has something but he really does need to bulk up. There's no excuse when you're doing this at a full time job not to spend time in the gym and add some muscle. You look at the Palace strike force, for instance, and they all look like units - and they're fast.

From what I was watching he won every header against them including of course the goal.

[HarvSFC]

I know he's reportedly leaving the club, but this post match comment from Rusk summed up what's been wrong with the club this season:

"My main objective was to get us past the points record, to make sure we’re competitive in all of these games. I think when you look at the fixtures there were some tough ones in there, for us to achieve what we have, I think we can be really pleased."

7 games, 5 losses, 2 draws, beating the point record by 1 point, abysmal tactics against Everton and Leicester away, 3 goals scored and 12 conceded despite all out defensive tactics. 

There are words to describe that record and "really pleased" aren't those. Ambitions and standards have been in the dirt.

[coalman]

13 hours ago, HarvSFC said:

I know he's reportedly leaving the club, but this post match comment from Rusk summed up what's been wrong with the club this season:

"My main objective was to get us past the points record, to make sure we’re competitive in all of these games. I think when you look at the fixtures there were some tough ones in there, for us to achieve what we have, I think we can be really pleased."

7 games, 5 losses, 2 draws, beating the point record by 1 point, abysmal tactics against Everton and Leicester away, 3 goals scored and 12 conceded despite all out defensive tactics. 

There are words to describe that record and "really pleased" aren't those. Ambitions and standards have been in the dirt.

The celebration of mediocrity is the cultural legacy of Russell Martin. Still and Spors have their work cut out the purge us of that.

[Saint_clark]

10 hours ago, coalman said:

The celebration of mediocrity is the cultural legacy of Russell Martin. Still and Spors have their work cut out the purge us of that.

Absolutely. Results don't matter mentality. Far cry from the culture Cortese and Adkins ingrained in the club. 

[tdmickey3]

19 hours ago, coalman said:

The celebration of mediocrity is the cultural legacy of Russell Martin. Still and Spors have their work cut out the purge us of that.

I don`t recall much mediocrity, just saw a lot of shit

[coalman]

9 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Absolutely. Results don't matter mentality. Far cry from the culture Cortese and Adkins ingrained in the club. 

The trouble is neither of those arguments is entirely right. Results do matter and process does matter.

If your process is good then over a longer time horizon you can expect better results. If your results are good then it doesn't mean your process is good.

And that's the trap Martin fell into. We had good results in the Championship but that doesn't mean our approach was good.

We had shit results in the Premier League so he persisted with his process on the basis of his belief that his process was good. The trouble is it was apparent that elements of his process simply didn't work. And obviously didn't work.

A winner's mentality, and why Martin is never going to be anything other than a Pep wannabe, is to be constantly re-evaluating your process. Your process is never perfect and always can be improved and adapted. We had a prime example of that during the playoffs that we somehow didn't learn from. 

Not only that but this rigid inflexibility leads to you becoming predictable and anyone capable of adapting will take you apart. At the start of the season we looked more threatening but as it became clear how we played we got easier to play against every week.

Throw in the desire to be friends with everyone and you wind up with a feedback and reflection mechanism where you get worse over time. Which then becomes the cultural norm. Net result is every game you played well and were brave but unlucky. Nobody learns and you wind up in a cultural death spiral.

Winners learn and adapt. Losers repeat and make excuses. The fine learn is in how you learn.

Edited May 28 by coalman

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, coalman said:

The trouble is neither of those arguments is entirely right. Results do matter and process does matter.

If your process is good then over a longer time horizon you can expect better results. If your results are good then it doesn't mean your process is good.

And that's the trap Martin fell into. We had good results in the Championship but that doesn't mean our approach was good.

We had shit results in the Premier League so he persisted with his process on the basis of his belief that his process was good. The trouble is it was apparent that elements of his process simply didn't work. And obviously didn't work.

A winner's mentality, and why Martin is never going to be anything other than a Pep wannabe, is to be constantly re-evaluating your process. Your process is never perfect and always can be improved and adapted. We had a prime example of that during the playoffs that we somehow didn't learn from. 

Not only that but this rigid inflexibility leads to you becoming predictable and anyone capable of adapting will take you apart. At the start of the season we looked more threatening but as it became clear how we played we got easier to play against every week.

Throw in the desire to be friends with everyone and you wind up with a feedback and reflection mechanism where you get worse over time. Which then becomes the cultural norm. Net result is every game you played well and were brave but unlucky. Nobody learns and you wind up in a cultural death spiral.

Winners learn and adapt. Losers repeat and make excuses. The fine learn is in how you learn.

Surely you can only judge the process by the results?

[coalman]

3 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Surely you can only judge the process by the results?

Only over a sufficient time period. For example - you could play a game and create 30 chances to your opponents 1 and lose 1-0. Does that mean your approach to the game was wrong? Probably (though not certainly) not. The outcome alone is useful and indicative but insufficient.

So for example - we got promoted from the Championship and scored lots of goals. Was our process right? What signals were there to indicate it was or wasn't working. If you purely looked on the outcome - we got promoted - you could argue our process was good. Yet, from from the number of goals we conceded you could also argue we were likely to be ruthlessly exposed at the higher level. The outcome alone isn't sufficient to say that our process for approaching football was good. As evidenced by this season. Same process very different outcome.

In any endeavour you can do everything right and still lose. You can also be utterly shit and still win. It's called Outcome Bias (or Self-serving Bias) in decision making and often results in us learning the wrong thing because we focus on outcomes to the exclusion of all else. If you ask someone what was the best decision you made last year they are highly likely to share a decision that led to a good outcome for them. The same if you ask about the worst decision they made they're likely to say something with a bad outcome.

If you truly want to learn you have to focus on how you made the decision to decide whether it was a good decision or not and divorce that from the outcome. If you make better decisions you should have better outcomes over a long time period. However, if you solely correlate good outcome with good decision/process you are limiting your ability to learn. Another example would be playing poker - you can play perfectly and lose on the last card due to chance. Is that a bad process or not? You get good at poker by examining everything up to the outcome because the outcome is not fully in your control. Over time you end up with more good outcomes than bad outcomes. The same is true in anything where there is an element of chance. Outcome bias excuses our bad outcomes as bad luck and makes us pat ourselves on the back for our ability when things turn out ok.

It's why I roll my eyes when someone says "but Martin got us promoted" to justify his brand of football. The same could be true of us getting relegated. Knowing what was bad in your process is how you correct it. However good outcomes are not guaranteed. Another example might Nottingham Forest's gamble on signing everyone when they joined the Premier League. The outcome has been good for them but I would argue the process they took to get there was dubious at best and it could've gone south in many ways.

Outcomes are still important because you want to correlate your process to the outcome but focusing on outcome to the exclusion of process is a blind spot that inhibits growth.

[Gloucester Saint]

On 26/05/2025 at 23:49, HarvSFC said:

I know he's reportedly leaving the club, but this post match comment from Rusk summed up what's been wrong with the club this season:

"My main objective was to get us past the points record, to make sure we’re competitive in all of these games. I think when you look at the fixtures there were some tough ones in there, for us to achieve what we have, I think we can be really pleased."

7 games, 5 losses, 2 draws, beating the point record by 1 point, abysmal tactics against Everton and Leicester away, 3 goals scored and 12 conceded despite all out defensive tactics. 

There are words to describe that record and "really pleased" aren't those. Ambitions and standards have been in the dirt.

Fully agree and as others have added, it’s far from just this season, culmination of Semmens stating the the league table didn’t matter at a fans forum allied to Blackmore’s lucky to be in the PL (have a look at our history 1966-), Rasmus’s old garbage about breaking what wasn’t broken (although it was neglected under Gao), obsession about finding the next Tino or Lavia over actually building a team core and spine, Les Reed’s increasing cheapening of transfer fees and increased volume of them, and a diverse range of marketing gimmicks and slogans to disguise the decline from the Koeman high watermark and Puel’s League Cup Final.

That environment isn’t going to recruit many winning player mentalities and the few it does find by fluke aren’t hanging around to wallow in staleness ignoring the club’s history. 

[malcolm waldron]

1 hour ago, coalman said:

Only over a sufficient time period. For example - you could play a game and create 30 chances to your opponents 1 and lose 1-0. Does that mean your approach to the game was wrong? Probably (though not certainly) not. The outcome alone is useful and indicative but insufficient.

So for example - we got promoted from the Championship and scored lots of goals. Was our process right? What signals were there to indicate it was or wasn't working. If you purely looked on the outcome - we got promoted - you could argue our process was good. Yet, from from the number of goals we conceded you could also argue we were likely to be ruthlessly exposed at the higher level. The outcome alone isn't sufficient to say that our process for approaching football was good. As evidenced by this season. Same process very different outcome.

In any endeavour you can do everything right and still lose. You can also be utterly shit and still win. It's called Outcome Bias (or Self-serving Bias) in decision making and often results in us learning the wrong thing because we focus on outcomes to the exclusion of all else. If you ask someone what was the best decision you made last year they are highly likely to share a decision that led to a good outcome for them. The same if you ask about the worst decision they made they're likely to say something with a bad outcome.

If you truly want to learn you have to focus on how you made the decision to decide whether it was a good decision or not and divorce that from the outcome. If you make better decisions you should have better outcomes over a long time period. However, if you solely correlate good outcome with good decision/process you are limiting your ability to learn. Another example would be playing poker - you can play perfectly and lose on the last card due to chance. Is that a bad process or not? You get good at poker by examining everything up to the outcome because the outcome is not fully in your control. Over time you end up with more good outcomes than bad outcomes. The same is true in anything where there is an element of chance. Outcome bias excuses our bad outcomes as bad luck and makes us pat ourselves on the back for our ability when things turn out ok.

It's why I roll my eyes when someone says "but Martin got us promoted" to justify his brand of football. The same could be true of us getting relegated. Knowing what was bad in your process is how you correct it. However good outcomes are not guaranteed. Another example might Nottingham Forest's gamble on signing everyone when they joined the Premier League. The outcome has been good for them but I would argue the process they took to get there was dubious at best and it could've gone south in many ways.

Outcomes are still important because you want to correlate your process to the outcome but focusing on outcome to the exclusion of process is a blind spot that inhibits growth.

Agree with most of this - and there were enough signals very early on (Norwich/QPR at home and Plymouth away for some reason are lodged in my mind) to see that we avoided losing/drawing games when good chances were given away by passing out from the back / having a suicidally high line, which were missed due to poor Championship level finishing.  That, and a whole load of drawn games in that autumn period of the 25 game run where we seemed so ponderous going forward.