ladysaint Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 anyone have any idea of how many tickets sold for Saturday. All those marching will they be going to the match too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 more to the point how many of those with season tickets who are counted anyway will be going. i know my youngest son (14) will not go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Have I ever mentioned before how ridiculous it is that football clubs are able to claim non-attendees in their attendance figures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexstar Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 more to the point how many of those with season tickets who are counted anyway will be going. i know my youngest son (14) will not go I still don't understand how they are counted anyway. The turnstile clicks each time someone goes through, and there's no button to distinguish between season tickets and normal match tickets, which would be needed to come up with the attendance figure. Unless you think they just use the season ticket holders (like 10,000) and add the amount of match tickets sold, meaning if a game was sold-out they would put the attendance as 32,689? They don't so i'm pretty sure they count up the number of people in the stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 I still don't understand how they are counted anyway. The turnstile clicks each time someone goes through, and there's no button to distinguish between season tickets and normal match tickets, which would be needed to come up with the attendance figure. Unless you think they just use the season ticket holders (like 10,000) and add the amount of match tickets sold, meaning if a game was sold-out they would put the attendance as 32,689? They don't so i'm pretty sure they count up the number of people in the stadium. I heard from someone 'behind the scenes' at another football club that it's for "tax reasons"..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexstar Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 I heard from someone 'behind the scenes' at another football club that it's for "tax reasons"..... Right, but i still don't know how they come up with the figure, unless they look around and pluck something out the air? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bungle Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 I am sure they are able to calculate a "paid attendance" (for financial reasons) and also an attendance figure for number of people in the ground (for safety reasons). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Right, but i still don't know how they come up with the figure, unless they look around and pluck something out the air? Probably - everything else about the club is managed in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 The club know how many season ticket they have sold. They also know how many match day tickets they have sold. Add the two together and you get the "match day" attendance. The turnstiles do not take into account corporate or guests but I believe they are legally required for Fire Safety reasons. Anyone know for sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 The club know how many season ticket they have sold. They also know how many match day tickets they have sold. Add the two together and you get the "match day" attendance. The quotes are more apt around "attendance" though as it isn't an attendance figure. It's a "number of tickets sold" figure. And, yes, I know what they say about "small things and small minds". I'm the proud owner of both.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saints_is_the_south Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 I know of 2 ST holders not going on Sat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 The club know how many season ticket they have sold. They also know how many match day tickets they have sold. Add the two together and you get the "match day" attendance. The turnstiles do not take into account corporate or guests but I believe they are legally required for Fire Safety reasons. Anyone know for sure? I dont get how it takes them nearly the whole match to work it out? Tickets are not bought at the turnstyles are they? and the club always know the figure for season tickets so its only the match day tickets that change. does it really take nearly 90 mins for the computer to add up how mnay match day tickets have been sold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexstar Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 I dont get how it takes them nearly the whole match to work it out? Tickets are not bought at the turnstyles are they? and the club always know the figure for season tickets so its only the match day tickets that change. does it really take nearly 90 mins for the computer to add up how mnay match day tickets have been sold? But like I said this can't be right as if a game sells out they would then just put the attendance as the maximum capacity for St. Marys (32,689). But they don't, for example Southend in our play-off season, match totally sold-out including hospitality and the attendance was 32,008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 But like I said this can't be right as if a game sells out they would then just put the attendance as the maximum capacity for St. Marys (32,689). But they don't, for example Southend in our play-off season, match totally sold-out including hospitality and the attendance was 32,008. thats something to do with the seperation between fans. the only time you are likly to get a complete sell out (and even then not ever seat will be bought) would be for a testimonial involving past and present saints teams. As soon as there is oposition there will be segregation between fans. this creates a bunch of empty seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 does it really take nearly 90 mins for the computer to add up how many match day tickets have been sold? Perhaps football clubs want to make it seem like they are totting up actual attendance figures rather than quoting a ticket sales figure....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 It dosen't take 90 mins. Its just when someone is bothered to announce it. When we were nearly selling out a few years ago, it would be belted out on the tannoy at the final whistle "and thank you for your wonderful support." These days they aren't stupid enough to say " 9,800 plus those who couldn't be arsed and thank you for watching another home defeat!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRINKLY SAINT Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 There are 2 figures 1) Tickets sold, this is announced as the attendance 2) People through the turnstiles. This is declared for health and safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 I still don't understand how they are counted anyway. The turnstile clicks each time someone goes through, and there's no button to distinguish between season tickets and normal match tickets, which would be needed to come up with the attendance figure. Unless you think they just use the season ticket holders (like 10,000) and add the amount of match tickets sold, meaning if a game was sold-out they would put the attendance as 32,689? They don't so i'm pretty sure they count up the number of people in the stadium. as all games you buy a ticket through the ticket office they know how many they have sold ? no one pays at the turnstile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 There are 2 figures 1) Tickets sold, this is announced as the attendance 2) People through the turnstiles. This is declared for health and safety. Any idea where we can view these 'declared' actual attendance figures for comparison purposes with the sales figures? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 We all hand over a bit of paper at the turnstiles, both ST and individual purchases. Somebody could count those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 We all hand over a bit of paper at the turnstiles, both ST and individual purchases. Somebody could count those?The click of the turnstile does that surely (but not for the corporate area through reception) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 The click of the turnstile does that surely (but not for the corporate area through reception) That's what I mean, you can compare the ticket stubs with the amount of clicks. The clicks are quicker though. There used to be a 'scam' at some grounds where you could clip the gatekeeper a note and he'd let you climb over (allegedly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 That's what I mean, you can compare the ticket stubs with the amount of clicks. The clicks are quicker though. There used to be a 'scam' at some grounds where you could clip the gatekeeper a note and he'd let you climb over (allegedly). Under the East, late sixties, there was only one price for both kids and adults (5 bob?) and I would be encouraged by my dad to climb over the turnstile, whilst he paid the bloke 1/2 for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyinthesky Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 thats something to do with the seperation between fans. the only time you are likly to get a complete sell out (and even then not ever seat will be bought) would be for a testimonial involving past and present saints teams. As soon as there is oposition there will be segregation between fans. this creates a bunch of empty seats. Begs the question what is the record stadium attendance at St Marys? The separation factor will always be there for big games, even for the England v Macedonia game. Was the Le Tizz testimonial a sell out and excluded fan segregation? Incidentally any truth in the rumour that Rupert is due a testimonial, after all Lawrie had one. Would have to big a big segregation between Lowe Luvvies and Loathies!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Ironically, I think more fans will attend than normal as they want to protest during the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Balls Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Im a STH and I wont be going. Nor will 2 other of my STH friends... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 I'm not buying tickets for me and my son. I'll go on the march and if there's enough impetus for many staying outside the stadium during the match, I'll stand outside and listen on my radio. If enough boycott the game, Lowe and the Quisling will not last much longer, especially if we are served up yet another home defeat. Under those circumstances, I'd hope that the demonstration at the end of the game will reach fever pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 I'm not buying tickets for me and my son. I'll go on the march and if there's enough impetus for many staying outside the stadium during the match, I'll stand outside and listen on my radio. If enough boycott the game, Lowe and the Quisling will not last much longer, especially if we are served up yet another home defeat. Under those circumstances, I'd hope that the demonstration at the end of the game will reach fever pitch. Wes if many follow your example the Club will not last much longer and IMO you really are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I know you won't agree with me but if Lowe goes it will be through shareholder action as last time or the creditors get twitchy and demand payment and then we are in administration. IMO I feel Lowe has managed to get buyin from Barclays but it is tenuous and clearly Lowe is beholden to them. If Lowe was removed via a 3rd way such as fan action then there is no guarantee Barclays will have the stomach to work with another chairman without significant investment. I think we can only conclude regardless of personal opinions but Lowe going will result in administration unless its as a result of new investment. Again IMO administration for a football club today could be the end simply because its very concerning to know where an investor will come from with enough funds to pay off the creditors or put together a rescue package that would satisfy the bank in particular. Lets face it the banks appetite for risk has evaporated and I'm not certain but would we be the first club to go into administration in the post credit crunch world. If banks and major retailers can go to the wall why not football clubs. The Housing market is going through a massive revaluation and surely at some stage football will have to as well or implode as its not supportable unless you have TV money or a very strong fan base and manageable debt. I could see Barclays making an example of us and 15,000 loyal fans won't have any say in the matter. I was thinking today why we haven't received our ST renewals? May be innocent in that they haven't finalised pricing or simple administrative tasks to be done or it may be that perhaps they don't want to take fans money and the risk they become just another unfortunate bunch of creditors. I am guessing here and have no inside track to anyone at the club but it does raise a bleak question if nothing else. You may have read them already but do a search on the recent posts of Weston Saint and Clapham Saint and their fears of administration. The latter is an Administrator and wrote an exellent piece on what will happen when an administrator is appointed. Its a valuable contribution that went largely ignored but we would all do well to heed its message. In the meantime, can I genuinely and respectfully suggest that as you are a few rungs above those organising the march and somewhat more savvy of the pitfalls you get to the ground for 2pm, buy your tickets and watch the marchers arrive or whatever and then get inside and support your team. This is no longer about Lowe out/Crouch in/All out and all that ****** as far as I am concerned its about supporting your club in their greatest hour of need and you may live to regret not being there. Protest now is futile because there is no alternative to support so fans can either choose to ignore their prejudices against the current board and go to the game and support the club. Or those wth a protest agenda and refusing to go to the game can carry on but understanding at this stage of the game they are simply accelarating our path to administration and that is a highly risky strategy and I refer everybody to Clapham Saints post (search on his username to find it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Wes if many follow your example the Club will not last much longer and IMO you really are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I know you won't agree with me but if Lowe goes it will be through shareholder action as last time or the creditors get twitchy and demand payment and then we are in administration. Then so be it. I'm not changing my mind, because as I inferred, I am a man of principle and I won't let my selfish enjoyment of a few matches get in the way of the stand that must be taken by all fans who agree that the club can never flourish and grow again while Lowe and the Quisling have anything to do with the running of it. If as you suggest the creditors get twitchy and pull the plug on them, then you can attempt to join some others who will blame the customers for the demise of the business, instead of the board who have made the product too expensive, poorer in quality and in the process have insulted the customers by not showing them the respect that they deserve. I will hope that as it becomes clearer that dwindling attendances bring us closer to the point whereby the bank are on the verge of pulling the plug on us, the message will eventually penetrate Lowe's thick cranium that if he and the Quisling and the current board stepped aside, the absent fans would rally round their replacements and help pull us away from the brink that Lowe and Wilde had brought us too. They really do need to get the message that we are intent on seeing this action through, regardless of the consequences and if they wish to save their shareholdings, then the only way that they can do that is by moving aside for others to take over. If they fail to do so, it can equally be argued that it was them who had cut off their nose to spite their face. Previously, I had likened this to a game of Russian Roulette. The chamber has spun and the gun is in Lowe's hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 My guess: Official gate: 14,781 Real gate: 10,542 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alehouseboys Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Wes if many follow your example the Club will not last much longer and IMO you really are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I know you won't agree with me but if Lowe goes it will be through shareholder action as last time or the creditors get twitchy and demand payment and then we are in administration. IMO I feel Lowe has managed to get buyin from Barclays but it is tenuous and clearly Lowe is beholden to them. If Lowe was removed via a 3rd way such as fan action then there is no guarantee Barclays will have the stomach to work with another chairman without significant investment. I think we can only conclude regardless of personal opinions but Lowe going will result in administration unless its as a result of new investment. Again IMO administration for a football club today could be the end simply because its very concerning to know where an investor will come from with enough funds to pay off the creditors or put together a rescue package that would satisfy the bank in particular. Lets face it the banks appetite for risk has evaporated and I'm not certain but would we be the first club to go into administration in the post credit crunch world. If banks and major retailers can go to the wall why not football clubs. The Housing market is going through a massive revaluation and surely at some stage football will have to as well or implode as its not supportable unless you have TV money or a very strong fan base and manageable debt. I could see Barclays making an example of us and 15,000 loyal fans won't have any say in the matter. I was thinking today why we haven't received our ST renewals? May be innocent in that they haven't finalised pricing or simple administrative tasks to be done or it may be that perhaps they don't want to take fans money and the risk they become just another unfortunate bunch of creditors. I am guessing here and have no inside track to anyone at the club but it does raise a bleak question if nothing else. You may have read them already but do a search on the recent posts of Weston Saint and Clapham Saint and their fears of administration. The latter is an Administrator and wrote an exellent piece on what will happen when an administrator is appointed. Its a valuable contribution that went largely ignored but we would all do well to heed its message. In the meantime, can I genuinely and respectfully suggest that as you are a few rungs above those organising the march and somewhat more savvy of the pitfalls you get to the ground for 2pm, buy your tickets and watch the marchers arrive or whatever and then get inside and support your team. This is no longer about Lowe out/Crouch in/All out and all that ****** as far as I am concerned its about supporting your club in their greatest hour of need and you may live to regret not being there. Protest now is futile because there is no alternative to support so fans can either choose to ignore their prejudices against the current board and go to the game and support the club. Or those wth a protest agenda and refusing to go to the game can carry on but understanding at this stage of the game they are simply accelarating our path to administration and that is a highly risky strategy and I refer everybody to Clapham Saints post (search on his username to find it). So why not the usual bolshy/insulting diatribe from nineteen/sundance/Lord... sounds like the last desperate throes from Rupey's mob to swing the 'flat-caps' round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slickmick Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Wes if many follow your example the Club will not last much longer and IMO you really are cutting off your nose to spite your face. I know you won't agree with me but if Lowe goes it will be through shareholder action as last time or the creditors get twitchy and demand payment and then we are in administration. IMO I feel Lowe has managed to get buyin from Barclays but it is tenuous and clearly Lowe is beholden to them. If Lowe was removed via a 3rd way such as fan action then there is no guarantee Barclays will have the stomach to work with another chairman without significant investment. I think we can only conclude regardless of personal opinions but Lowe going will result in administration unless its as a result of new investment. Again IMO administration for a football club today could be the end simply because its very concerning to know where an investor will come from with enough funds to pay off the creditors or put together a rescue package that would satisfy the bank in particular. Lets face it the banks appetite for risk has evaporated and I'm not certain but would we be the first club to go into administration in the post credit crunch world. If banks and major retailers can go to the wall why not football clubs. The Housing market is going through a massive revaluation and surely at some stage football will have to as well or implode as its not supportable unless you have TV money or a very strong fan base and manageable debt. I could see Barclays making an example of us and 15,000 loyal fans won't have any say in the matter. I was thinking today why we haven't received our ST renewals? May be innocent in that they haven't finalised pricing or simple administrative tasks to be done or it may be that perhaps they don't want to take fans money and the risk they become just another unfortunate bunch of creditors. I am guessing here and have no inside track to anyone at the club but it does raise a bleak question if nothing else. You may have read them already but do a search on the recent posts of Weston Saint and Clapham Saint and their fears of administration. The latter is an Administrator and wrote an exellent piece on what will happen when an administrator is appointed. Its a valuable contribution that went largely ignored but we would all do well to heed its message. In the meantime, can I genuinely and respectfully suggest that as you are a few rungs above those organising the march and somewhat more savvy of the pitfalls you get to the ground for 2pm, buy your tickets and watch the marchers arrive or whatever and then get inside and support your team. This is no longer about Lowe out/Crouch in/All out and all that ****** as far as I am concerned its about supporting your club in their greatest hour of need and you may live to regret not being there. Protest now is futile because there is no alternative to support so fans can either choose to ignore their prejudices against the current board and go to the game and support the club. Or those wth a protest agenda and refusing to go to the game can carry on but understanding at this stage of the game they are simply accelarating our path to administration and that is a highly risky strategy and I refer everybody to Clapham Saints post (search on his username to find it). I remember reading Clapham Saints post and agree, we cannot wish to go down that route. A well written piece Nineteen, but I don't think it will change anyones mind. Personally I would have expected to hear a rallying cry from Crouch if we were that close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Just bought my ticket (Itchen South) and only 13K sold so far, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 So why not the usual bolshy/insulting diatribe from nineteen/sundance/Lord... sounds like the last desperate throes from Rupey's mob to swing the 'flat-caps' round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 I'm nodding you blind bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Then so be it. I'm not changing my mind, because as I inferred, I am a man of principle and I won't let my selfish enjoyment of a few matches get in the way of the stand that must be taken by all fans who agree that the club can never flourish and grow again while Lowe and the Quisling have anything to do with the running of it. If as you suggest the creditors get twitchy and pull the plug on them, then you can attempt to join some others who will blame the customers for the demise of the business, instead of the board who have made the product too expensive, poorer in quality and in the process have insulted the customers by not showing them the respect that they deserve. I will hope that as it becomes clearer that dwindling attendances bring us closer to the point whereby the bank are on the verge of pulling the plug on us, the message will eventually penetrate Lowe's thick cranium that if he and the Quisling and the current board stepped aside, the absent fans would rally round their replacements and help pull us away from the brink that Lowe and Wilde had brought us too. They really do need to get the message that we are intent on seeing this action through, regardless of the consequences and if they wish to save their shareholdings, then the only way that they can do that is by moving aside for others to take over. If they fail to do so, it can equally be argued that it was them who had cut off their nose to spite their face. Previously, I had likened this to a game of Russian Roulette. The chamber has spun and the gun is in Lowe's hands. Wes you and others who are clearly following your approach are playing a very foolish and risky game. You liken it to Russian Roulette and Lowe has the gun. Trouble is what is the greatest prize, seeing L & W lose their investments and the club going bust or you as a lifelong Saints fan witnessing your club going into Administration and run the significant risk of losing your club altogether. Seems to me you advocate long term misery over a brief moment of satisfaction and when you hold the gun its the only time it has a bullet in it. That suggests a 1 in 6 chance of the club being dismantled and closing down when you probably need 3 bullets in that chamber to reflect the true odds. Its not logical, if you want something to survive you don't contribute to/or support dwindling attendances especially as people get use to doing something else and as we have seen in the past don't come back. I'm not sure how you call paying to watch a game a selfish enjoyment that your principles won't allow when you are selfishly contributing to the removal of a lot of pleasure and a way of life to 12,000 - 15,000 loyal fans. 'The most useful thing about a principle is that it can always be sacrificed to expediency' I hope you think on Wes because you don't strike me as someone who will stand by and watch their club go too the wall in some misguided belief you are taking the moral high ground from Lowe and Wilde. The only way we are going to win this is by support through the turnstiles and keeping our enemies close until the green shots of recovery and potential investment bear fruit in 2010. Sometime as you will appreciate the best plan is to watch (&pay) and wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alehouseboys Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 ...I was thinking more... ...and the Joan Crawford sketch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1976_Child Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 To be honest I am not sure I can be arsed to go to the game tomorrow. I might just sit at home and save my money. Even though I have an ST I still end up spending about £30 minimum on a match day. I'm just getting to the stage where it is not fun any more, just a bloody long commute to and from Brighton to watch **** football, no goals and the outcome is almost certainly losing the game. Perhaps I'll put the £30 towards my pension instead. I just can't be bothered. I really can't. Still, when push comes to shove and the alarm clock goes off tomorrow morning I am sure I will put my red and white stripey shirt on and get on a train. I'm on autopilot on match days. I wouldn't know what else to do. Get off the train, trudge mournfully up to the Chapel Arms. Have a cold one. Chat mournfully to the others. Trudge up to the supporters bar. Spend thirty seconds chatting to the doormen about how **** it all is. Have a cold one. Talk to Ben in somber tones as he tries to get me interested in his quiz. Go into the stadium. Have a cold one. Talk mournfully to some familiar faces. Trudge up to my seat. Mournfully wait for the funeral to start. Watch us go behind just on half time. Trudge down to the bar. Have a cold one. Talk mournfully to the wall. Shuffle my way back to my seat. See us concede within the first 19 nanoseconds of the second half. Leave the stadium in a somber mood. Trudge back to the station. Sit on the train. Get home. Go to bed feeling really glad to be alive.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Can I just congratulate Sumdance Canteen on becoming a Full member and I look forward to reading many more of his lengthy and inciteful (sorry: insightful) tomes. However, I would wish to warn him of the danger that is the purile "FartPants" who stalks posters with a deliberately confrontational attitude and appears to offer no original insight and even less good humour. All IMHO of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALWAYS_SFC Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Less than it would have been before the dutch t w a t opened his mouth to have yet another pop at fans, the who can see the **** we are in and have the "cheek" to say so.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Wes you and others who are clearly following your approach are playing a very foolish and risky game. You liken it to Russian Roulette and Lowe has the gun. Trouble is what is the greatest prize, seeing L & W lose their investments and the club going bust or you as a lifelong Saints fan witnessing your club going into Administration and run the significant risk of losing your club altogether. Seems to me you advocate long term misery over a brief moment of satisfaction and when you hold the gun its the only time it has a bullet in it. That suggests a 1 in 6 chance of the club being dismantled and closing down when you probably need 3 bullets in that chamber to reflect the true odds. Its not logical, if you want something to survive you don't contribute to/or support dwindling attendances especially as people get use to doing something else and as we have seen in the past don't come back. I'm not sure how you call paying to watch a game a selfish enjoyment that your principles won't allow when you are selfishly contributing to the removal of a lot of pleasure and a way of life to 12,000 - 15,000 loyal fans. 'The most useful thing about a principle is that it can always be sacrificed to expediency' I hope you think on Wes because you don't strike me as someone who will stand by and watch their club go too the wall in some misguided belief you are taking the moral high ground from Lowe and Wilde. The only way we are going to win this is by support through the turnstiles and keeping our enemies close until the green shots of recovery and potential investment bear fruit in 2010. Sometime as you will appreciate the best plan is to watch (&pay) and wait. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this as my principles are my own and will not be pursuaded along a different course. It seems that many, many others have also decided to take similar action, hence the attendance figures at this club show the second highest % drop of any club in British football. Just stop and ask yourself for a minute why this should be. The only sensible conclusion that can be reached is that the fans don't consider that the matchday experience is worth the cost in terms of value for what they see and most blame Lowe and Wilde for that and choose not to attend further whilst they remain in control. The reasons for their disruntlement are plain; the dismissal of the popular manager we had last season, his replacement with two Dutch nonentities who don't know what they're doing, the loaning out of experienced and productive strikers and players to be replaced with last season's youth team are all factors which have alienated the support. This has all been debated to death. But the conclusions to be drawn remain the same. It is unreasonable to expect the fans to continue supporting this regime that they blame for our current demise. Why should it be the thousands of fans who have to make personal sacrifices of their hard-earned pay to watch this dross and at the same time perpetuate the regime that they despise? Why can't the situation be that the board resigns having failed dismally and accept that others can take over from them? Surely it is plain to you that under Lowe and the Quisling, the club can never be unified? I had to laugh at the sheer zaniness of this remark from you:- I'm not sure how you call paying to watch a game a selfish enjoyment that your principles won't allow when you are selfishly contributing to the removal of a lot of pleasure and a way of life to 12,000 - 15,000 loyal fans. I just buy two tickets and don't need to feel any guilt that by not attending I risk ruining the lives of 12/15,000 loyal fans. On the other hand, the resignation of just another two particular individuals could cause immense celebrations amongst that loyal fan base by tendering their resignations from the board in the cause of club unity; that is if they truly have the best interests and love of the club at heart. Blind loyalty and continued attendance regardless is what Lowe misguidedly hopes for, but the fans aren't quite as gormless as he believes. Mass boycott is the only realistically potent weapon we have in our armoury and he knows it and you also know it. Are Lowe and Wilde prepared to watch their investment go down the pan? Protection of their investment was the reason they returned. Would they be prepared to leave to protect what little of it remains? If not, then the end game is indeed administration and they lose everything. You might attempt scare tactics telling any dissenters that a boycott would finish the club for good, but frankly I don't believe it. Like many others, I have arrived at the scenario that as things stand with the club, the gamble is worth taking so long as we are rid of the charlatans, this time for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 We'll just have to agree to disagree on this as my principles are my own and will not be pursuaded along a different course. It seems that many, many others have also decided to take similar action, hence the attendance figures at this club show the second highest % drop of any club in British football. Just stop and ask yourself for a minute why this should be. The only sensible conclusion that can be reached is that the fans don't consider that the matchday experience is worth the cost in terms of value for what they see and most blame Lowe and Wilde for that and choose not to attend further whilst they remain in control. The reasons for their disruntlement are plain; the dismissal of the popular manager we had last season, his replacement with two Dutch nonentities who don't know what they're doing, the loaning out of experienced and productive strikers and players to be replaced with last season's youth team are all factors which have alienated the support. This has all been debated to death. But the conclusions to be drawn remain the same. It is unreasonable to expect the fans to continue supporting this regime that they blame for our current demise. Why should it be the thousands of fans who have to make personal sacrifices of their hard-earned pay to watch this dross and at the same time perpetuate the regime that they despise? Why can't the situation be that the board resigns having failed dismally and accept that others can take over from them? Surely it is plain to you that under Lowe and the Quisling, the club can never be unified? I had to laugh at the sheer zaniness of this remark from you:- I'm not sure how you call paying to watch a game a selfish enjoyment that your principles won't allow when you are selfishly contributing to the removal of a lot of pleasure and a way of life to 12,000 - 15,000 loyal fans. I just buy two tickets and don't need to feel any guilt that by not attending I risk ruining the lives of 12/15,000 loyal fans. On the other hand, the resignation of just another two particular individuals could cause immense celebrations amongst that loyal fan base by tendering their resignations from the board in the cause of club unity; that is if they truly have the best interests and love of the club at heart. Blind loyalty and continued attendance regardless is what Lowe misguidedly hopes for, but the fans aren't quite as gormless as he believes. Mass boycott is the only realistically potent weapon we have in our armoury and he knows it and you also know it. Are Lowe and Wilde prepared to watch their investment go down the pan? Protection of their investment was the reason they returned. Would they be prepared to leave to protect what little of it remains? If not, then the end game is indeed administration and they lose everything. You might attempt scare tactics telling any dissenters that a boycott would finish the club for good, but frankly I don't believe it. Like many others, I have arrived at the scenario that as things stand with the club, the gamble is worth taking so long as we are rid of the charlatans, this time for good. You may only buy two tickets Wes but if you don't buy them thats two tickets less and if others follow the decline in revenue snowballs to a degree that yes those who have remained loyal thoughout could have their lives changed by the collapse of their club. I don't think that is dramatic how often do we read on this forum that ' I go because what else am i going to a on a Saturday' or words to that effect. On their own two tickets won't amount to much but you remain part of a bigger problem who IMO believe that the best way to make your point is to restrict the club's revenue which contradicts the term supporter. I know you wont agree with that but I can't help but try to convince you otherwise and it's why put the principles quote up. With the greatest of respect but sod your principles which club do you support? I am not scaremongering, I have no Lowe orientated agenda, I just firmly believe the mechanics of administration in the current economic environment would be very very risky as to not worth contemplating and frankly I'm surprised you find it an acceptable risk and would genuinely like you to explain why you think administration won't see the club fold completely. or the risk is far smaller than I would lead you to believe. Finally, on the attendance issue you will find that from our start point of just under 19k for our first home game numbers have actually held up ok with an average just under 17k. Last season we started with 25k for the first home game against Palace and by the time Crouch appointed D&G numbers had declined to around the 15k mark. The real damage was done last season IMO and this season whilst we have eroded out attendance figures further the numbers aren't as bad as the previous season or those with passionate anti-Lowe stance would have us believe. I say lets keep the status quo and our enemies within until we have ridden out the recession and threat of administration but that is totally dependent on fans buying tickets on match days. If that can be acheived then when the time is right hopefully 2010 investors may view us as an attractive proposition with strong and loyal fan base upon which a business case can be backed for a takeover. I don't think that could be achieved at the moment and its why Connor Bower's march is so utterly futile and damaging only to the club and not its intended targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjinksie Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Have I ever mentioned before how ridiculous it is that football clubs are able to claim non-attendees in their attendance figures? i'm pretty sure they dont, each turnstile has a counter, like grannies use for knitting and they calculate it using those. you can see turn round in some of the turnstiles, wouldnt seem much point in lying if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 if nobody turned up for a game,not one single person,would they still say there was 9k in the stadium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 You may only buy two tickets Wes but if you don't buy them thats two tickets less and if others follow the decline in revenue snowballs to a degree that yes those who have remained loyal thoughout could have their lives changed by the collapse of their club. I don't think that is dramatic how often do we read on this forum that ' I go because what else am i going to a on a Saturday' or words to that effect. On their own two tickets won't amount to much but you remain part of a bigger problem who IMO believe that the best way to make your point is to restrict the club's revenue which contradicts the term supporter. I know you wont agree with that but I can't help but try to convince you otherwise and it's why put the principles quote up. With the greatest of respect but sod your principles which club do you support? I am not scaremongering, I have no Lowe orientated agenda, I just firmly believe the mechanics of administration in the current economic environment would be very very risky as to not worth contemplating and frankly I'm surprised you find it an acceptable risk and would genuinely like you to explain why you think administration won't see the club fold completely. or the risk is far smaller than I would lead you to believe. Finally, on the attendance issue you will find that from our start point of just under 19k for our first home game numbers have actually held up ok with an average just under 17k. Last season we started with 25k for the first home game against Palace and by the time Crouch appointed D&G numbers had declined to around the 15k mark. The real damage was done last season IMO and this season whilst we have eroded out attendance figures further the numbers aren't as bad as the previous season or those with passionate anti-Lowe stance would have us believe. I say lets keep the status quo and our enemies within until we have ridden out the recession and threat of administration but that is totally dependent on fans buying tickets on match days. If that can be acheived then when the time is right hopefully 2010 investors may view us as an attractive proposition with strong and loyal fan base upon which a business case can be backed for a takeover. I don't think that could be achieved at the moment and its why Connor Bower's march is so utterly futile and damaging only to the club and not its intended targets. As I said, nothing that you say can change my mind. If Lowe and the Quisling continue in charge and we flounder on the rocks, then so be it. They charted this course and they will be the ones in the dock facing the court marshall for professional incompetance, not the passengers. I agree with your opinion that Connor Bower's march is futile from the point of view that Lowe and Wilde will ignore it. If there were as many people as attended the march who also then boycotted the match, then Lowe and Wilde would be gone before next week, especially if those boycotters signed a declaration stating that they would normally have attended the match but would not do so again until Lowe and Wilde were gone. And if there was a "board in waiting" that had the broad support of the majority of the fans who would then pledge their return and support to the new board, then Barclays would move behind that new board rather than prop up the failed regime that had alienated such a large percentage of the paying customers of the PLC with their bizarre gamble on the failed Dutch experiment. It is also debateable as to whether we would be a better prospect for investors to take us over while Lowe and Wilde are here, or whether they might prefer to get us on the cheap after administration when Lowe and Wilde's shareholdings are gone, along with those of Askham, Richards, Crouch, Corbett, etc. With a well orchestrated campaign and really solid support, this could all be achieved before the stage was reached that administration became unavoidable. However, unless we see a radical improvement in our results, administration would almost certainly follow relegation anyway and it is by no means certain as yet whether the board would go down that route by mid-March in order to avoid the -10 point penalty next season in the third division. Do you know for a fact that they are not considering that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junction 9 Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 i'm pretty sure they dont, each turnstile has a counter, like grannies use for knitting and they calculate it using those. you can see turn round in some of the turnstiles, wouldnt seem much point in lying if you ask me. It was agreed by most that the Sheff utd attendance was at least 3-4000 lower than the one they printed. makes me wonder if the emergency services do know how many people are actually in the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 IMO I feel Lowe has managed to get buyin from Barclays but it is tenuous and clearly Lowe is beholden to them. If Lowe was removed via a 3rd way such as fan action then there is no guarantee Barclays will have the stomach to work with another chairman without significant investment. I think we can only conclude regardless of personal opinions but Lowe going will result in administration unless its as a result of new investment. And if that is your opinion, then I have to say it doesn't stand up to much scrutiny!!! Whilst there is no doubt that Lowe (and whoever is in charge) is beholden to the bank, there is nothing to suggest that Barclays would not work with another CEO/Chairman without significant investment. Indeed, we have had two changes of CEO's/Chairman in the past year, both without significant investment, and Barclays have been more than happy to work with both Crouch and Lowe. Therefore your last claim that Lowe going would automatically result in administration had no basis in fact and it is a rather ludicrous opinion as well. Protest now is futile because there is no alternative to support so fans can either choose to ignore their prejudices against the current board and go to the game and support the club. But you have missed out a much larger number of fans who have deserted the Club through nothing more than either being disaffected, disenfranchised, fed up, felling that they're not getting value for money etc etc etc, who won't be returning unless there is a marked change in what they see on the pitch. No amount of procrastinating on here, in the Echo or on the OS will bring them back, and they are a much bigger force with regards numbers and their effect on the club's finances. Those who are protesting are a part the rump that is left. The overwhelming majority of them will still go to matches (I know I will), but the fact that even their presence may not be enough to keep our head above water brings us back to all those who no longer go. And rather than moan at the rump who still go (even if they have a good moan and protest), your time would be wiser spent working out why those who no longer come along have taken that decision, and how they can be won back. I'm not sure how you call paying to watch a game a selfish enjoyment that your principles won't allow when you are selfishly contributing to the removal of a lot of pleasure and a way of life to 12,000 - 15,000 loyal fans. And as I and many others have said before, rather than trying to win round and change the minds of thousands of disaffected and disenfranchised fans, wouldn't it be easier for just for one or two individuals to stop behaving in a selfish manner? You can continue to blame the supporters (whether they still go or not) for the demise of this Club, but that would be missing the point. The real fact is that supporters attendance patterns, their perceptions and their reactions, are purely the direct result of the appalling way this Club has been run in recent years. This appalling leadership by a number of individuals and groups has crystallised to where we are now with into one of the most wanting regimes we have ever witnessed, both in terms of failure on the pitch and failure in the boardroom. Rather than continually blaming supporters and suggest they need to change their logical and resultant reactions, you would be much better off seeking to change the habits, actions and results of those in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLOTH EARS Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 IF the club were to die then Lowe, Wilde & Askham etc would need to change identities and emigrate to Greenland because there is no doubt in my mind that there would be thousands of people filled with a hatred far more severe than it is at this moment in time. It's Lowe, Wilde and that gutless bunch of wimpy shareholders who would be held responsible for the demise of the club in a vast majority of Saints fans eyes. As relegation and administration nears the anger will intensify MARK MY WORDS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 And if that is your opinion, then I have to say it doesn't stand up to much scrutiny!!! Whilst there is no doubt that Lowe (and whoever is in charge) is beholden to the bank, there is nothing to suggest that Barclays would not work with another CEO/Chairman without significant investment. Indeed, we have had two changes of CEO's/Chairman in the past year, both without significant investment, and Barclays have been more than happy to work with both Crouch and Lowe. Therefore your last claim that Lowe going would automatically result in administration had no basis in fact and it is a rather ludicrous opinion as well. But you have missed out a much larger number of fans who have deserted the Club through nothing more than either being disaffected, disenfranchised, fed up, felling that they're not getting value for money etc etc etc, who won't be returning unless there is a marked change in what they see on the pitch. No amount of procrastinating on here, in the Echo or on the OS will bring them back, and they are a much bigger force with regards numbers and their effect on the club's finances. Those who are protesting are a part the rump that is left. The overwhelming majority of them will still go to matches (I know I will), but the fact that even their presence may not be enough to keep our head above water brings us back to all those who no longer go. And rather than moan at the rump who still go (even if they have a good moan and protest), your time would be wiser spent working out why those who no longer come along have taken that decision, and how they can be won back. And as I and many others have said before, rather than trying to win round and change the minds of thousands of disaffected and disenfranchised fans, wouldn't it be easier for just for one or two individuals to stop behaving in a selfish manner? You can continue to blame the supporters (whether they still go or not) for the demise of this Club, but that would be missing the point. The real fact is that supporters attendance patterns, their perceptions and their reactions, are purely the direct result of the appalling way this Club has been run in recent years. This appalling leadership by a number of individuals and groups has crystallised to where we are now with into one of the most wanting regimes we have ever witnessed, both in terms of failure on the pitch and failure in the boardroom. Rather than continually blaming supporters and suggest they need to change their logical and resultant reactions, you would be much better off seeking to change the habits, actions and results of those in charge. Um interesting reply and food for thought. I agree I have no evidence to support my claim that Barclays will only work with Lowe and another change will invoke administration. Like wise you have no facts to support they will work with Crouch again. We live in unprecedented times and when Crouch took the reigns in Dec 2007 no one had heard of the credit crunch least of all the banks and 120% LTVs were still widely available, etc. So to compare the past with today is like comparing apples with oranges. My hunch, opinion gut feel was that when Lowe took control in May in an altogether bleaker world for the banks and the general economy it felt to me that we had entered last chance saloon. Screw it up this time with regard to the finances and there is no way back. I don't share your optimism but i don't think your suggestion is ludicrous either and I'm surprised you find my analysis without any foundation. Most of our fans deserted the club last season dropping off significantly from the first 25k. The decline under Lowe has continued but at a slower pace I think simply because we are finding the number of true hard core fans of around 12 - 14k. Everyone involved with the club at a senior level is equally culpable but removing them now will actually solve nothing and will risk the future existence of the club IMO. I don't have the answers but a march to encourage supporters to come back to the club in its hour of need will be more productive than a march for Lowe out but could be equally embarrassing for him as we our saying come back fans they've screwed us big time and we are going down without you. Much more positive action, saves the club, embarrasses Lowe by highlighting his failures and gives a positive message to future investors. The bitter pill means that Lowe isn't removed immediately but the tide may have turned and with patience and an upturn in the economy we may look a lot more attractive than we do today as an investment vehicle or just a good club for a wealthy person to want to get involved with. With the fanbase coming to SMS even relegation wouldn't mean administration. Something has to give Lowe and Wilde are unlikely to, so here is a chnace for the fans to take some moral high ground and turning a negative protest into a positive one will make Lowe a little more uncomfortable. Its a bit like the story we were told as kids about the weather elements trying to force the old man's coat off his back. It couldn't be done as he just pulled it tighter against the cold, wind and rain and general meteorological abuse but in the he chose to remove it of his own accord once the sun came out. We need those 10,000 missing sons (sic) back in the stadium. I'm sorry I haven't done your post justice but I'm on my way out for the evening and already late. Be interested in what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 I agree with your opinion that Connor Bower's march is futile from the point of view that Lowe and Wilde will ignore it. Wes, I've alwys thought your posts to be well reasoned and thought out. My take on this little plum I've taken the liberty of pulling........is that 'yes' they will ignore it, but the purpose it to rid the club of Lowe, and whilst they may ignore it, I'm equally sure there are others with power, who will not. So IMHO, they can ignore away, for they're not really the aiming point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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