Was Lowe a lot closer to being right than we give him credit for?

[trousers]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

Edited 1 March, 2009 by trousers

[so22saint]

I think Lowe's "roll the dice" approach to management over the last decade or so has led to a couple of gems, WGS and Dave Jones (and maybe Hoddle dalek, just for you :-)), but if you have enough managers you're bound to find you have some good ones in there.

 

Problem is, you end up with a massive squad of players that drains money.

 

Also, I think the upturn in form also coincides with more experience in the squad which is against what were were attempting at the start of the season.

 

anyway, COME ON YOU REDS

[Gingeletiss]

For what it's worth...............bullsh1t. IMHO of course. I won't list the reasons he should not be here, but they are well documented. Don't think that a couple of wins, makes up for all he is responsible for.

[Saint_clark]

Even though we've dropped the super duper youth team experiment in which we take on every other teams "promising" youngsters?

[Colinjb]

He was totally incorrect regarding a youthful approach, now we have reverted to a traditional blend of youth and experience we have shown to have a fighting chance.

 

If we go down this season there is only one person to blame.

[70's Mike]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

 

more than a million miles away imo.

the last 3 weeks have seem such a reversal in the previous policy that to claim it is a continiation of the previous one is mad.

[trousers]

Even though we've dropped the super duper youth team experiment in which we take on every other teams "promising" youngsters?

 

Perhaps he just took the concept a few steps too far? As someone pointed out on another thread, 10 out of the 11 that started yesterday were in the first squad of the season.....

[ivangolac]

He waited until February when we were 5 points adrift and rooted in the bottom two before finally admitting HIS experiment was WRONG and reverted to experienced players and 442 ....

 

so no he was not right ....

[derry]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reallity, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

 

Only JP Saeijs of the yesterday's team was not at the club at the start of the season. It was the Lowe experiment that stopped this team being picked from day one.

 

It was sheer incompetence and arrogance on Lowe's part to tell Dave Jones (Cardiff manager), before the season started, that the youngsters would carry all before them playing fantastic football.

 

Wotte has been expediant, picked the experienced quality, picked a simple compact system, and is developing the tactics as each week goes by.

 

Lowe buggered it up, Wotte at the moment is digging him out of the hole he dug, I just hope it isn't too late.

[dubai_phil]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

 

IMHO it had a fatal flaw from the start. Experience

 

You can argue that the kids COULD have done it

You can argue that the concept of integrated coaching and playing styles COULD have done it

 

 

BUT I do not believe that the kids could EVER have done it without a proper EXERIENCED coach.

 

I also think it COULD have been possible for JP to succeed with the integrated approach IF he had kept a balanced side and had an older experienced head working alongside him

 

So today we have an experienced manager and a balanced team playing a formation for the League we are in rather than becuase the kids play that way.

 

That is not related to the experiement in ANY way that I can see

[derry]

Perhaps he just took the concept a few steps too far? As someone pointed out on another thread, 10 out of the 11 that started yesterday were in the first squad of the season.....

 

Skacel, Euell, and Saganowski weren't, they were ignored along with John, Thomas, Raziak and Dyer. That was the big problem in the first place.

[Dalek2003]

I think Lowe's "roll the dice" approach to management over the last decade or so has led to a couple of gems, WGS and Dave Jones (and maybe Hoddle dalek, just for you :-)), but if you have enough managers you're bound to find you have some good ones in there.

 

Problem is, you end up with a massive squad of players that drains money.

 

Also, I think the upturn in form also coincides with more experience in the squad which is against what were were attempting at the start of the season.

 

anyway, COME ON YOU REDS

 

Thanks !

[Pilchards]

We always at this stage of the season start playing better.

 

(1) The players finally care?

(2) Playing for new contracts?

 

Maybe it's because we have the right structure at last but we will still make the same mistakes next season!

 

 

I reckon on the last 10 games of the season in the last 10 years we would be in the top 25 of the whole country.

[Legod Third Coming]

Perhaps he just took the concept a few steps too far? As someone pointed out on another thread, 10 out of the 11 that started yesterday were in the first squad of the season.....

 

He refused to play good players and once again fell back on his old policy of quantity beats quality.

 

The guy is clueless and needs to be removed from this club.

 

Skacel, Euell and Saga have been the difference over the past few weeks.

 

What difference have Gasmi, Pulis, Peckhart, Robertson, etc made to our season??

 

This is the same old same old from Lowe who detests paying high wages for good players - yet is happy to pay bonuses to rich bankers.

 

A hypocrite of the highest order who simply does not believe in the football truism that better players cost more - just like a BMW costs more than a Citroen - for a reason!!!

[1965onwards]

Lowes youth policy was wrong from day one.

 

ONLY Man Utd and Arsenals youth teams have shown themselves capable of beating CCC teams regularly.

 

No-one in their right minds would think that our young players match up to theirs.

[derry]

He refused to play good players and once again fell back on his old policy of quantity beats quality.

 

The guy is clueless and needs to be removed from this club.

 

Skacel, Euell and Saga have been the difference over the past few weeks.

 

What difference have Gasmi, Pulis, Peckhart, Robertson, etc made to our season??

 

This is the same old same old from Lowe who detests paying high wages for good players - yet is happy to pay bonuses to rich bankers.

 

A hypocrite of the highest order who simply does not believe in the football truism that better players cost more - just like a BMW costs more than a Citroen - for a reason!!!

 

If Lowe had been such a bloody genius he would have stayed in banking. What sort of idiot is it that walks out on the biggest shareout in history.

[Daren W]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reallity, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

 

With Jan Poortvliet he was a million miles from getting it right. The fact that Wotte is getting things right actually makes it worse.

 

Wotte is, so far, miles better and Lowe definitely knows of Wottes abilities from his dealing with him in the past. There seems to be a movement on here that Lowe is the innocent party in all of this and was mislead by others to appoint Poortvielt.

 

Now he's either a man who knows talent when he sees it and is so weak willed and feeble that he's allowed to be talked out of appointing him or he not as smart as people thought and couldn't see who was the best man for the job. Either way it doesn't look good does it?

[SaintRobbie]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

 

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. GET THE FOOL OUT OF THIS CLUB FOR GOOD.

 

We are in this mess because of Lowe. HIS youth policy, HIS Mismanagement of senior players, his personal scheming, his ineptitude.

 

Lowe = fans staying away.

 

Lowe = No confidence.

 

Lowe = Cancer of SFC. He won't just go away - he'll be back to ruin it further if allowed to get away with this crap. He'll think he can do anything!

 

 

Sorry but if x2 wins against underperforming sides mean Lowe is now a genius some people need to seriously look at the bigger picture over time. Lowe = loser.

 

Lowe is now humiliated NOT to be hailed as a genius. HIS policies have failed - look at the team - this is not a Lowe team of youth - it is a stark recognition that playing kids doesnt work. We still have too many kids in this team, we are still likely to relegate.

 

Sorry, but LOWE MUST GO FOR GOOD for this Club to rebuild and go forward with confidence, regardless of any major miracles that Wotte pulls off.

[um pahars]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

 

I find it very hard to agree with anything in that statement and others have put it better on this thread, and on the madness of the Poortvliet experiment thread, as to why your OP does not resonate with me.

 

We have bombed out the manager who was used to working with youngsters and no money (how I loved that line of that infamous CV), we have thrown out the idea of going with youngsters, we have dropped the Total Football approach, etc etc etc.

 

What we have seen is a U turn of epic proportions, but then again what we are doing now is no more than the majority on here were saying months ago, and no more than what other teams have been doing for years.

 

The whole idea that we would take a different and innovative approach and be the leaders in our field was blown out of the water in a matter of months.

 

I'm really gald we recognised the failure of the experiment, but, like others, I worry we may be saddled with the fall out for some time.

[aintforever]

Yeah, freezing out Skacel and Euell and loaning out Saganowski for half a season was genius.

 

All that the current results are proving is that with a half decent manager this squad is easily good enough to be comfortably mid table.

 

If we go down Lowe is completely to blame, not our financial position.

[dubai_phil]

OK Trousers, I'll bite...

 

You went to the game yesterday but didn't know where to park at SMS

 

You then pop up on here asking whether Lowe may have been right all along.

 

As you are the King of our conspiracy analysts I must ask

 

1) Who has hacked into Trousers account?

2) If it's you did you get a freebie from Rupe's?

 

Or more likely you had a DIFFERENT reason for starting this post.....

 

Awaiting with interest the new conspiracy theory you probably have up your sleeve with this, as I don't believe for one minute you have lost your marbles/Guillemots

 

OK so what's up?

[alpine_saint]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

 

Yes, he bloody well was.

 

Saints Go Dutch Mk. 2 is a million miles from what Saints Go Dutch Mk. 1 was supposed to be...

[Viking Warrior]

Anyone can have a vision , even Lowe.

 

I have watched sainst a few times this season. I enjoyed the style of play Jan was encouraging, there were some sheer moments of exilirating football. but we were niave on occassions and gave away some silly goals.

 

We could easily have thumped reading 4/5 nil at the majesdki stadium and a similar score and SMS. what were were lacking in these games was the nouse to shut up shop coupled with tiring young legs. we needed older heads to gee the youngster along

 

If we had done that and closed the games , we would be in the top ten and not fighting a rear guard action.

Just suppose we had being doing well and the total football concept had worked , I pretty sure there would be a number of posters still slagging off the team because of the lowe factor.

 

Back to the question. Lowes vision. It was a brave vision and one I wanted to succeed. I think it would have succeeded eventually, but sadly we were giving to many sloppy goals away and the club had to change tact just to survive in this league. Some teams are no where as skilled as us and rely on very dour football , putting 11 players behind the ball in order to stifle good footballing sides and then get the lucky break and score against the odds.

We can try and legislate for that type of opposition but it makes for ugly and boring football.

 

As for the trousers conspiracy. I have heard that the FBI in an attempt to hack in to Jack Bauers mobile they accidentally hacked into Trouser's PC.

 

Apparently the makers of 24 have said they now have enough information from Trousers PC to do 20 more series of 24:cool:

[alpine_saint]

 

We could easily have thumped reading 4/5 nil at the majesdki stadium and a similar score and SMS. what were were lacking in these games was the nouse to shut up shop coupled with tiring young legs. we needed older heads to gee the youngster along

 

If we had done that and closed the games , we would be in the top ten and not fighting a rear guard action.

 

But we didnt...and we arent...

[Polaroid Saint]

Is it worth the reminder that Lowe wanted to appoint Wotte before Burley?

 

Or does that higlight his subsequent appointment of JP as even more incorrect and misinformed.

 

By reading between the lines - mostly from Wotte - I understand Wotte was sounded out about becoming 'manager' 'head coach' or whatever during the summer, but he himself (wotte) did not want that role.

 

So, did Lowe appoint 'next best' when he really wanted Wotte from the start?

 

Either way, it was monumental ****-up that was supported - outwardly at least - by our current manager.

 

The total football youth squad policy has been rapidly cut back and we have the right blend doing the business at last. This was not Lowe's plan at the start of this season, but maybe it was Lowe's plan a few summers back...

 

...if that's what you mean Trousers?

[trousers]

OK Trousers, I'll bite...

 

You went to the game yesterday but didn't know where to park at SMS

 

You then pop up on here asking whether Lowe may have been right all along.

 

As you are the King of our conspiracy analysts I must ask

 

1) Who has hacked into Trousers account?

2) If it's you did you get a freebie from Rupe's?

 

Or more likely you had a DIFFERENT reason for starting this post.....

 

Awaiting with interest the new conspiracy theory you probably have up your sleeve with this, as I don't believe for one minute you have lost your marbles/Guillemots

 

OK so what's up?

 

Ok, hands up....there was an element of Devil's Advocate in posing the question. (yes, for those that didn't notice, it was a question rather than a statement or opinion....)

 

For the record, I'm in the "clean sweep" camp (aka "Lowe, Wilde and Crouch must all go" camp), but I'm simply wondering how close Lowe came to doing things right.

 

IMHO, there's a fine line between doing things wrong and right in many walks of life. What if that pilot who successfully landed his plane in water in New York had nudged his yoke a centimetre too much to the left on landing? Could have been the difference between the plane breaking up or staying intact.

 

What I'm trying to say (perhaps somewhat inartculately) is maybe, just maybe, what Lowe was TRYING to achieve was along the right lines but his execution was wrong.

 

For example, a lot of us on here during the last half of last season were saying we should promote more of the youngsters into the first team. Lowe did that, but he took it too far (or rather, from what we're led to understand, Barclays forced his hand when it came to retaining and playing more senior players...???).

 

Another example....Lowe wanted to install Wotte as head coach (three years ago) which, over the evidence of the last few games, would seem to be a shrewd move, but someone (van der Waals????) convinced him to go for the JP/MW split roles approach instead. Ok, even more balanced view alert....perhaps Lowe convinced himself this was a good move but that doesn't add up to me.

 

So, again, for what it's worth, I want to see Lowe and co out of here as quickly and quietly as the next man (or woman), but I don't think that should preclude me from having an open mind on how all this came about.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I'm all in favour of a interesting piece of revisionist history every now and then but there are limits . Let's just get this crystal clear right now - if (big 'IF') we do stay up this season it will IN SPITE OF rather than because of the abysmal decision making emanating from the Boardroom .

 

Rupert Lowe football genius ? - I think not .

[alpine_saint]

Let's just get this crystal clear right now - if (big 'IF') we do stay up this season it will IN SPITE OF rather than because of the abysmal decision making emanating from the Boardroom .

 

 

Yep.

[trousers]

Is it worth the reminder that Lowe wanted to appoint Wotte before Burley?

 

Or does that higlight his subsequent appointment of JP as even more incorrect and misinformed.

 

By reading between the lines - mostly from Wotte - I understand Wotte was sounded out about becoming 'manager' 'head coach' or whatever during the summer, but he himself (wotte) did not want that role.

 

So, did Lowe appoint 'next best' when he really wanted Wotte from the start?

 

Either way, it was monumental ****-up that was supported - outwardly at least - by our current manager.

 

The total football youth squad policy has been rapidly cut back and we have the right blend doing the business at last. This was not Lowe's plan at the start of this season, but maybe it was Lowe's plan a few summers back...

 

...if that's what you mean Trousers?

 

Yep, that's it.

 

Note to self: less waffle, more articulation Trousers.

[um pahars]

Anyone can have a vision , even Lowe.

 

I have watched sainst a few times this season. I enjoyed the style of play Jan was encouraging, there were some sheer moments of exilirating football. but we were niave on occassions and gave away some silly goals.

 

We could easily have thumped reading 4/5 nil at the majesdki stadium and a similar score and SMS. what were were lacking in these games was the nouse to shut up shop coupled with tiring young legs. we needed older heads to gee the youngster along

 

If we had done that and closed the games , we would be in the top ten and not fighting a rear guard action.

Just suppose we had being doing well and the total football concept had worked , I pretty sure there would be a number of posters still slagging off the team because of the lowe factor.

 

Sorry, but too many IF's in there for me.

 

We were second bottom, 26 points from 28 games and going backwards (1 win in last 10, won once at home etc etc etc).

 

You can gloss it up as much as you like, but to suggest we were 2nd bottom after 28 games because of the reasons above is somewhat rewriting history (I'm sure the same reasons/excuses can be said for every team in our division, but ultimately the table does not lie).

 

Those first 28 games were an unmitigated disaster.

 

The league position, points tally and the fact the manager got the boot are a testament to that, so we would do well to steer clear of trying to see it through rose tinted glasses.

 

Back to the question. Lowes vision. It was a brave vision and one I wanted to succeed. I think it would have succeeded eventually, but sadly we were giving to many sloppy goals away and the club had to change tact just to survive in this league.

 

You're more than welcome to your opinion, but I never saw any evidence that it would have succeeded eventually, nothing whatsoever.

 

And what is worrying with such a viewpoint is that if it is mirrored by those in power, then there is the risk that we could be repeat these mistakes next season if we stay up.

 

I worry that Lowe will be accepting dropping the Total Football & Revolutionary Coaching Set Up due to our precarious position, but what's to say he won't be dusting it off and re-issuing Version 2 come the summer!!!!!!!!

Edited 1 March, 2009 by um pahars

[alpine_saint]

 

And what is worrying with such a viewpoint is that it is mirrored by those in power, then there is the risk that we could be repeat these mistakes next season if we stay up.

 

I worry that Lowe will be accepting dropping the Total Football & Revolutionary Coaching Set Up due to our precarious position, but what's to say he won't be dusting it off and re-issuing Version 2 come the summer!!!!!!!!

 

This worries me greatly...

[trousers]

This worries me greatly...

 

Yep, me too. That's the supplimentary question to the one I posed in the OP...i.e. "Does Wotte succeeding where Poortvliet failed mean Lowe (and Co) stay at the club longer?"

 

The words 'sword', 'double' and 'edged' spring to mind....

[Hemel Saint]

Yes, he bloody well was.

 

Saints Go Dutch Mk. 2 is a million miles from what Saints Go Dutch Mk. 1 was supposed to be...

 

 

How the effing hell do you know?????

 

8,000 plus posts, and every thread is dominated by your negative drivel and assumptions.

[alpine_saint]

How the effing hell do you know?????

 

8,000 plus posts, and every thread is dominated by your negative drivel and assumptions.

 

What a dumb-ass post.

 

Especially singling me out even though the same thing has been said by at least 10 other posters.

 

Tit.

[sidthesquid]

The whole Dutch/youth experiment was both brave and reckless and it nearly worked. Personally I really liked the idea of our young Academy boys showing the rest of the CCC donkeys what for but it was too much too soon for a lot of them.

But cast yourself back twelve months and we were in a similar situation to where we are now, but with what we perceived were a bunch of over the hill journeymen who were only here for the money and giving our young lads a go seemed a good idea. And there were 5 academy boys playing yesterday, 4 of whom barely ever got a look in under Burley, and all of whom have benefitted enormously from playing regularly in the first team. And Paterson, Gobern, White, Thompson etc will all come back better and stronger for having played in the first team.

Unfortunately it didn't QUITE work earlier on & Poortvliet seemed to lose his way with some bizarre selections and his pig-headedness over persisting with 4-5-1. Part of our revival is down to the returning senior pros, but not all of it. At the end of last season I would have been happy to see Euell, Skacel & Saga go & with their wages the needed to see them go, but fair play to them, they have knuckled down and earned the right to wear the shirt again. Saeijs is a masterstroke, but a lot of it is down to Wotte playing the right people in the right places.

I really don't think the plan was that bad, particularly in the current financial climate, and I could see us doing well next year with more academy players becoming regulars. It was just that it suffered, like all mad/brilliant plans, from a lack of balance, which I think we now have

[um pahars]

The whole Dutch/youth experiment was both brave and reckless and it nearly worked. Personally I really liked the idea of our young Academy boys showing the rest of the CCC donkeys what for but it was too much too soon for a lot of them.

But cast yourself back twelve months and we were in a similar situation to where we are now, but with what we perceived were a bunch of over the hill journeymen who were only here for the money and giving our young lads a go seemed a good idea. And there were 5 academy boys playing yesterday, 4 of whom barely ever got a look in under Burley, and all of whom have benefitted enormously from playing regularly in the first team. And Paterson, Gobern, White, Thompson etc will all come back better and stronger for having played in the first team.

Unfortunately it didn't QUITE work earlier on & Poortvliet seemed to lose his way with some bizarre selections and his pig-headedness over persisting with 4-5-1. Part of our revival is down to the returning senior pros, but not all of it. At the end of last season I would have been happy to see Euell, Skacel & Saga go & with their wages the needed to see them go, but fair play to them, they have knuckled down and earned the right to wear the shirt again. Saeijs is a masterstroke, but a lot of it is down to Wotte playing the right people in the right places.

I really don't think the plan was that bad, particularly in the current financial climate, and I could see us doing well next year with more academy players becoming regulars. It was just that it suffered, like all mad/brilliant plans, from a lack of balance, which I think we now have

 

I'm sorry, but it didn't "nearly work", it was an unmitigated disaster that left us second bottom with less points than games, etc etc etc.

 

Sorry, if it's broing, but we need to accept that those first 28 games were an absolute shambles, and if they weren't then we wouldn't have booted out the manager and undertaken a massive U turn.

 

We were heading into Divsion 3 and administration and in my book, that's not "nearly working".

 

We need to stop looking back in some romantic way that we almost pulled it off, because that was not the case at all (IMHO of course).

[Hemel Saint]

What a dumb-ass post.

 

Especially singling me out even though the same thing has been said by at least 10 other posters.

 

Tit.

 

 

Because I log onto this site to read peoples opinions, and all I get is your name in every thread with the same, repetitive drivel.

I singled out your name, because yours was all over this thread as well.

 

I wont respond because thats my 3 posts.

Ta Ta

 

Love from a "Tit"

[Nineteen Canteen]

more than a million miles away imo.

the last 3 weeks have seem such a reversal in the previous policy that to claim it is a continiation of the previous one is mad.

 

Is it not mad to suggest that it is not a continuation of the same policy as Wotte was brought in at the same time as JP and has been working with the players in the reserves and the academy so was acutely aware of the club's resources when he was asked to do the first team job.

 

Whose to say that bringing Wotte with JP was not an insurance policy if the gamble didn't pay off. People keep saying don't judge Wotte off the back of 2 wins and that is correct, judge him off the back of 6 games in charge where the team has shown far greater battling qualities and not allowing the opposition any time on the ball in addition to our own more direct style of play.

 

Broadly the policy is the same, maximum return for minimum cost the only difference is the changes in coaching style and the positive impact it has had on the the youth, James, McGoldrick, Gillet especially plus we can presumably pay Saga his wages having farmed him out of the first half of the season and the stewards alledgedly continue to be paid on what essentially amounts to a weekly contract.

 

Well done by Trousers for trying to invite some balance but as a result I'm afraid a pointless thread as we are still in the bottom 3 and 4 points from safety and many will remind us of that fact because negativity is what gets us through our day.

[St Paul]

The person I feel sorry for is Jan. Totally out of his depth, however he was only doing Lowe's bidding. He's become a patsy for the failed "total football" idea,but all he was doing was implenting Lowe's policy.Had he been allowed to play Saga, Euall, Rudi and Perry in the same team, I'm sure his results would have been a bit better.

 

Time and time again supporters were calling for, more senior players, a more direct approach and one of Saga, John or Rasiak back off loan.

 

All Lowe has given us is what everybody wanted from day 1. A Manager who knows what he's doing , being allowed to manage the best way to get results, with all players at the Club at his disposal. Was Jan given that ?

[VectisSaint]

We're all very quick to criticise Lowe on here (and justifyably so in many cases) but IF Wotte and the team he is now building proves to be a winning formular then, in reality, Lowe wasn't a million miles away from getting things right, was he?

Quite clearly no. Lowe has and had no idea what he was doing. The plan he put in place has failed spectacularly, and now there is a new plan in place, not entirely clear where that came from, but probably not from Lowe - its interesting that he has hardly uttered a word since JP went (which is a good thing, since when he does make utterances they are invariably full of crap). In fact very little has been said since Mr Nice But Dim finally packed his bags.

 

I think to try and turn it round now and try to make Lowe look successful out of this is scraping the barrel. Lowe's plans failed, miserably, luckily events have conspired to give us a fighting chance to recover from the utter madness. Lowe seems to have "disappeared" with his tail stuck firmly between his legs, thank MLT

[sidthesquid]

I'm sorry, but it didn't "nearly work", it was an unmitigated disaster that left us second bottom with less points than games, etc etc etc.

 

Sorry, if it's broing, but we need to accept that those first 28 games were an absolute shambles, and if they weren't then we wouldn't have booted out the manager and undertaken a massive U turn.

 

We were heading into Divsion 3 and administration and in my book, that's not "nearly working".

 

We need to stop looking back in some romantic way that we almost pulled it off, because that was not the case at all (IMHO of course).

 

It wasn't all an unmitigated disaster - the last month or so of his regime - from Forest at home - was, but up to then it still looked like it might just work. I agree JP looked like he'd lost the plot, but it is a very fine line betwen success & disaster in football and we were just the wrong side of it. Think back to last season - we had the most experienced team ever, probably, (I remember several games where are average age was about 30) & they were still dross. I agree we went too far the other way at times this season, but try to remember the historical & financial context, too

[dubai_phil]

Ah ha so I did catch you Trousers. Good thread though for a change as it has got people discussing things with some sense for a change.

 

IMHO a wise person is one who watches and learns, either from the experience or the mistakes of others. An old boss once said he'd fire people if they never made a mistake as quickly as he'd fire people who always made mistakes.

 

On this issue there is no doubt it was one mistake in a whole long line of them.... by someone who NEVER seems to learn or seek to learn...

 

But although I posted before the season began that it was a concept with too many risks. I still think as others have said that it COULD have worked. (Which is NOT to say I thought it WOULD work).

 

Taking the LESSON from this, IF we survive to next season we now have a clear way to move forwards.

 

Keep a spine of experience and bring the youngsters in gradually, as they learn and develop they will become good players, can ANYONE see how (for example) Lancashire could have been expected to play 40+ games a season against experienced old pros.

 

Last season we had 11 "experienced pros" and to be honest that strategy was as WRONG as this seasons has been. We lacked the balance last year - the youthful enthusiasm and fresh legs vs the bored old pros. All we have ever wanted is a balance between the two.

 

By default we may have got it.

 

BUT for Lowe, sorry you may keep us running with the bank a bit longer than anyone else could have but that would make you fit AT THE MOST to be finance director NOT chairman.

[Nineteen Canteen]

I'm sorry, but it didn't "nearly work", it was an unmitigated disaster that left us second bottom with less points than games, etc etc etc.

 

Sorry, if it's broing, but we need to accept that those first 28 games were an absolute shambles, and if they weren't then we wouldn't have booted out the manager and undertaken a massive U turn.

 

We were heading into Divsion 3 and administration and in my book, that's not "nearly working".

 

We need to stop looking back in some romantic way that we almost pulled it off, because that was not the case at all (IMHO of course).

 

Hardly a 'massive u turn' promoting from within. In fact its probably that Lowe has orchestrated a reversal of fortune from within existing resources that grates with you the most.

 

We could still be heading for administration but that was the case before a competitive ball was kicked this season and the negativity that seeps form every pore of people like yourself have really helped the cause and now you seem disappointed your prophecies of relegation may not come true.

 

At least you acknowledge we were heading to Division 3 and I'm sure admitting that must cause you a lot of pain. I wouldn't write off administration just yet, that depends if some of the fans can change their attitude in line with the squad's.

[Toomer]

March will be an interesting month.

[um pahars]

It wasn't all an unmitigated disaster - the last month or so of his regime - from Forest at home - was, but up to then it still looked like it might just work. I agree JP looked like he'd lost the plot, but it is a very fine line betwen success & disaster in football and we were just the wrong side of it. Think back to last season - we had the most experienced team ever, probably, (I remember several games where are average age was about 30) & they were still dross. I agree we went too far the other way at times this season, but try to remember the historical & financial context, too

 

I'm sorry, but IMHO we had a little spike when we had back to back wins against Doncaster and Norwich, and a glimmer of hope after Reading and Derby, but the vast majority of that 28 game period was very, very poor and we would do well to remember that in order not to repeat the same sorry mistakes.

 

I am acutely awarte of the historical and financial context in which this season is being played out, but that does not excuse the sheer number of poor decisions that have been made throughout this season.

[docker-p]

 

Broadly the policy is the same, maximum return for minimum cost the only difference is the changes in coaching style and the positive impact it has had on the the youth, James, McGoldrick, Gillet especially plus we can presumably pay Saga his wages having farmed him out of the first half of the season and the stewards alledgedly continue to be paid on what essentially amounts to a weekly contract.

 

Well done by Trousers for trying to invite some balance but as a result I'm afraid a pointless thread as we are still in the bottom 3 and 4 points from safety and many will remind us of that fact because negativity is what gets us through our day.

Broadly the policy is exactly the opposite. Lowe didn't want to use the older, experienced (and expensive) players. But once he was persuaded he was wrong and they were brought back into the fold, hey presto, we start getting results. Lowe is a busted flush and the sooner we rid ourselves of his dark presence, the sooner we can sleep at night safe in the knowledge we won't have to suffer another of his hair brained get rich quick schemes.

[dubai_phil]

March will be an interesting month.

 

Interesting will be a hell of an improvement on depressing as Jan & early Feb had been!

[docker-p]

H I wouldn't write off administration just yet, that depends if some of the fans can change their attitude in line with the squad's.

 

Ha ha ha, I wonderd how long it would take you to trot out your "its all the fans fault'" line.

 

You're priceless.:smt082:rolleyes:

[um pahars]

Ah ha so I did catch you Trousers. Good thread though for a change as it has got people discussing things with some sense for a change.

 

IMHO a wise person is one who watches and learns, either from the experience or the mistakes of others. An old boss once said he'd fire people if they never made a mistake as quickly as he'd fire people who always made mistakes.

 

On this issue there is no doubt it was one mistake in a whole long line of them.... by someone who NEVER seems to learn or seek to learn...

 

But although I posted before the season began that it was a concept with too many risks. I still think as others have said that it COULD have worked. (Which is NOT to say I thought it WOULD work).

 

Taking the LESSON from this, IF we survive to next season we now have a clear way to move forwards.

 

Keep a spine of experience and bring the youngsters in gradually, as they learn and develop they will become good players, can ANYONE see how (for example) Lancashire could have been expected to play 40+ games a season against experienced old pros.

 

Last season we had 11 "experienced pros" and to be honest that strategy was as WRONG as this seasons has been. We lacked the balance last year - the youthful enthusiasm and fresh legs vs the bored old pros. All we have ever wanted is a balance between the two.

 

By default we may have got it.

 

BUT for Lowe, sorry you may keep us running with the bank a bit longer than anyone else could have but that would make you fit AT THE MOST to be finance director NOT chairman.

 

Very sensible and balanced post.

 

I don't think anyone had any problems bringing youngsters through, but like you I thought it was madness to be relying on the likes of McGoldrick, Lancashire etc etc etc for the whole 46 games in a team where they would be surrounded by youngsters.

 

Throw in some experienced players, and as you say in key positions, then augment that woth youngsters. James looks a different player now he is the only youngster in a back 5. Even McGoldrick looks more sprightly now he doesn;t have the pressure of having to socre.

 

You're right in that we got to where we are now by default and hopefully the current set up will pull us out the relegation zone, but like you I think we need to address how we ended up in this mess come the summer.

 

One worry is your point about the inability to learn from mistakes, because my worry (which has been heightened by those on here trying to suggest the experiment almost came off) is that come the summer a certain individual will be smarting from getting it wrong and perhaps determined to try it again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[docker-p]

Yesterday, 10 of the 11 starters were here when Lowes dark menace returned. He dictates the older, experienced players should not be used and go out on loan. We go to our lowest point for 50 years. The policy is revoked we start getting results. What part of that experiment is anything other than a complete unmitigated failure?????