Sorry if this a repetition, but I cannot get over what a crass decision this was..

[alpine_saint]

...not taking administration last week.

 

Our first team, with dubious ability to fight themselves out of the relegation zone already, is beginning to pick up injuries, exemplified by Gillet.

 

Our reserves are utter w**k and completely incapable of stepping up to fill the void.

 

We didnt get any loans in.

 

We are down more than a whore in a knocking shop, and next season a large section of our fans (including ST holders) are to desert the club in droves.

 

The club is going to go utterly insolvent, so we lose at least 10 points next season, so are fighting against relegation into Division 4, especially as anyone who kick trap and kick a ball will be sold.

 

What a truly ego-driven decision that was...

[Kaiser Soze]

YAWN. Get over it...

[trousers]

We're not allowed to go into voluntary administration if we're still a 'going concern'....

[alpine_saint]

I will eventually.

 

But the pertinent question is : will the club ?

[Channon's Sideburns]

...not taking administration last week.

 

Our first team, with dubious ability to fight themselves out of the relegation zone already, is beginning to pick up injuries, exemplified by Gillet.

 

Our reserves are utter w**k and completely incapable of stepping up to fill the void.

 

We didnt get any loans in.

 

We are down more than a whore in a knocking shop, and next season a large section of our fans (including ST holders) are to desert the club in droves.

 

The club is going to go utterly insolvent, so we lose at least 10 points next season, so are fighting against relegation into Division 4, especially as anyone who kick trap and kick a ball will be sold.

 

What a truly ego-driven decision that was...

 

Perhaps Rupey hasn't got his investors lined up yet..

[aintforever]

I made no sense to chuck in the towel while there was still a chance.

 

Go down and we are ****ed anyway,

[alpine_saint]

I swear on my life I havent started this thread as a troll.

 

I really think that the consequences of this decision are frightening.

[trousers]

I swear on my life I havent started this thread as a troll.

 

I really think that the consequences of this decision are frightening.

 

I'm on your side in principle, but can you imagine the uproar if Lowe had taken the VA path last week and then we proceeded to win enough games that would have kept us up and solvent?

[wild-saint]

Can someone share the link with me that details in full are exact financial position that shows we have no alternative to go into administration. or are we guessing?

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

...not taking administration last week.

 

Our first team, with dubious ability to fight themselves out of the relegation zone already, is beginning to pick up injuries, exemplified by Gillet.

 

Our reserves are utter w**k and completely incapable of stepping up to fill the void.

 

We didnt get any loans in.

 

We are down more than a whore in a knocking shop, and next season a large section of our fans (including ST holders) are to desert the club in droves.

 

The club is going to go utterly insolvent, so we lose at least 10 points next season, so are fighting against relegation into Division 4, especially as anyone who kick trap and kick a ball will be sold.

 

What a truly ego-driven decision that was...

 

I didn't realise it was the clubs decision to just 'put it' into administration. I thought it was a combination of influences. And I doubt it was ego-driven, I assume it was financially driven (Eg Lowe didn't want to lose out on his investment).

 

I take it you won't be renewing your season ticket then?

[alpine_saint]

I'm on your side in principle, but can you imagine the uproar if Lowe had taken the VA path last week and then we proceeded to win enough games that would have kept us up and solvent?

 

Not really.

 

1. Nobody has a crystal ball, but he would have dealt with the most likely scenario.

 

2. It aint going to happen anyway.

[BadgerBadger]

If there is a realistic chance of survival then we'd be made to choose admin' - maybe if we stay up we'll have another season to get some stability or if we go down then maybe someones waiting to snap up a bargain and rescue us, anyone got Ross Brawn's telephone number???

[Pancake]

Not really.

 

1. Nobody has a crystal ball, but he would have dealt with the most likely scenario.

 

2. It aint going to happen anyway.

 

Hmm.....

[londonsaint1604]

So you really believe it would have been more sensible to go into admin and guarantee relegation when we still have a very good chance of staying up?

 

Surely the fans would still 'desert the club in droves' anyway, probably even more would due to the appalling decision to throw in the towel and surrender with 8 games still to play. And if you think we'd be fighting relegation with the 10 point deduction then the extra 10 points would only mean we would be bottom half and still completely ****ed.

 

You talk a lot of **** but this is just ridiculous.

[oldsarum]

...not taking administration last week.

 

Our first team, with dubious ability to fight themselves out of the relegation zone already, is beginning to pick up injuries, exemplified by Gillet.

 

Our reserves are utter w**k and completely incapable of stepping up to fill the void.

 

We didnt get any loans in.

 

We are down more than a whore in a knocking shop, and next season a large section of our fans (including ST holders) are to desert the club in droves.

 

The club is going to go utterly insolvent, so we lose at least 10 points next season, so are fighting against relegation into Division 4, especially as anyone who kick trap and kick a ball will be sold.

 

What a truly ego-driven decision that was...

 

 

 

Alpine if we had gone into administration and then got relegated the 10 points would get deducted next season anyway (see attached article)

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7965152.stm

 

So there would have been no benefit going into administration last week, unless we were certain we would stay up eg Darlington.

[Block 5]

I swear on my life I havent started this thread as a troll.

 

Are you Stanley in disguise?

[londonsaint1604]

Alpine if we had gone into administration and then got relegated the 10 points would get deducted next season anyway (see attached article)

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7965152.stm

 

So there would have been no benefit going into administration last week, unless we were certain we would stay up eg Darlington.

 

Even if there was a benefit I would be ashamed to see us giving up when we still have 24 points to play for. I would rather see us go down fighting than just give up for the sake of being in a slightly better position next season when we would be in league 1 either way.

[aintforever]

Alpine if we had gone into administration and then got relegated the 10 points would get deducted next season anyway (see attached article)

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7965152.stm

 

So there would have been no benefit going into administration last week, unless we were certain we would stay up eg Darlington.

 

No you're wrong it would have happened this season, but there's always a risk of -17 next season if a CVA is not agreed.

 

In that respect I suppose a deduction of -27 is possible next season, if we go into admin and don't get a CVA.

[ooh it's a corner]

If I understand the rules correctly, then the March deadline is a bit of a non event. The rules now state that if you go into admin before the deadline you lose ten points this season. If you go in after the deadline, but before the start of next season, then the points are suspended and will either come off your total this season (if it makes a difference to promotion/relegation) or next (if it doesnt).

 

So, from Saints point of view, if you assume that administration is inevitable, (and you assume that losing ten points this season will relagate us), then this March deadline was irrelevant. Our choices were;

 

1. admin before deadline, minus ten this season, relegation, and start league one on -17

2. admin after deadline, minus ten this season, relegation, and start league one on -17

3. admin after dealine, (but not this season), potentially start the year in whichever division on -27.

 

From a financial point of view, it has to be preferable to start in the Championship on -27 rather than League One on -17,

 

So, despite Lord Lowe's obvious failings, this is a call which is correct, in my opinion.

 

Perhaps there is method in some of his madness.

[Ken Tone]

...not taking administration last week.

 

Our first team, with dubious ability to fight themselves out of the relegation zone already, is beginning to pick up injuries, exemplified by Gillet.

 

Our reserves are utter w**k and completely incapable of stepping up to fill the void.

 

We didnt get any loans in.

 

We are down more than a whore in a knocking shop, and next season a large section of our fans (including ST holders) are to desert the club in droves.

 

The club is going to go utterly insolvent, so we lose at least 10 points next season, so are fighting against relegation into Division 4, especially as anyone who kick trap and kick a ball will be sold.

 

 

What a truly ego-driven decision that was...

 

This is based on the premise that administration is inevitable eventually anyway. If we aren't quite that skint the argument falls apart.

 

I don't know how many times those of us who know a little about business have to explain to explain that administration is a very unpleasant process and not something to wish for, however much you loathe lowe and wilde.

 

And btw I don't agree that fan will desert the club next season in droves. We seem to be down to a pretty loyal hard core of 16/17k home fans. I reckon the numbers would be similar next season if we stay up -- better if we stay up and do well. And if we go into L1 numbers will fall a little but not much further ..and will recover dramatically if we have a good run even in a lower division.

 

K.

[Hopkins]

Its in our hands to stay up. I really dont see any logic in accepting relegation by going into administration.

 

You are dumb.

[bungle]

Maybe we haven't gone into administration because we don't need to?!

[Channon's Sideburns]

Even if there was a benefit I would be ashamed to see us giving up when we still have 24 points to play for. I would rather see us go down fighting than just give up for the sake of being in a slightly better position next season when we would be in league 1 either way.

 

I think you're watching a different team than me then...go down fighting?

 

Go down drinking more like.

[eelpie]

We're not allowed to go into voluntary administration if we're still a 'going concern'....

 

'Isn't going, going, agona' enough?

[Junior Mullet]

Alpine, look at the people who stand to lose out via administration and then consider who are running the club. Then ask yourself whether it was any surprise.

 

I have been saying for ages on here that Lowe and Wilde would not allow the club to go into administration, not for the club's sake but for their own sake. I have also said for a long time that I would like to see the club go into administration. I have been in a minority in holding these opinions because, I think, people fail to consider the business implications which is reasonable I suppose given that we are, on the whole, passionate supporters.

 

The company will only go into admin when it suits the major shareholders. Until then I fear they will continue to take the club down the leagues.

[Junior Mullet]

This is based on the premise that administration is inevitable eventually anyway. If we aren't quite that skint the argument falls apart.

 

I don't know how many times those of us who know a little about business have to explain to explain that administration is a very unpleasant process and not something to wish for, however much you loathe lowe and wilde.

 

And btw I don't agree that fan will desert the club next season in droves. We seem to be down to a pretty loyal hard core of 16/17k home fans. I reckon the numbers would be similar next season if we stay up -- better if we stay up and do well. And if we go into L1 numbers will fall a little but not much further ..and will recover dramatically if we have a good run even in a lower division.

 

K.

 

Ken, I believe that attendances next season of around 10-12k will be the norm regardless of which leaue we are in unless the main shareholders sell to someone with the means and desire to invest and unless performances become a lot more consistent and we do well in the league.

 

I know a fair few supporters like myself who are falling out of love with football in general and who will not be renewing season tickets next year. The club will also be fighting against the effects of recession in a city that has been and will continue to be fairly hard hit.

[Window Cleaner]

 

The company will only go into admin when it suits the major shareholders. Until then I fear they will continue to take the club down the leagues.

 

 

But going into administration wouldn't stop us going down any leagues.

In fact it would probably accelerate the process. We have few players who would bring in much of a fee but whatever was proposed would be accepted and they would be gone. Years of work down at the academy would be sprayed around like pig manure in February for very little income. So we'd have even worse players and no money to pay them. The punter through the gate next season because Lowe and Wilde were no longer in charge wouldn't change much. The club has been losing money for a few years now, it's not 16K League 1 crowds that would change that.Saint's core fanbase is about

15K,whilst playing the likes of Palace,Derby and QPR we get a couple of thousand away fans in.Won't get that many from Oldham and Southend.

The debts still have to be addressed in a serious manner, there is no buying the club out for 5 million and starting again you know. It needs serioyus finance and we won't attract that in League 1.

[(not THE) Kevin Moore]

firstly none of know how close we are to admin or what plans are in place should we be relegated so none of us can say whether this decision really was 'crass' (that won't stop people using hindsight in future though).

 

Secondly, if Administration was the 'panacea' or 'get out of jail free card' that people on here seem to think it is why do so many companies strive so hard to avoid it?

[Junior Mullet]

Message to Clapham Saint and any other insolvency practitioners out there:

 

If the club went into administration how easy would it be for Lowe and co to buy it in the form of a pre-pack or otherwise?

 

Would the administrator have to shop around for a buyer or effectively advertise it for sale?

 

What criteria does an administrator have to consider when selling a company like this?

 

I think the answer to these questions will go a long way to answering some of the rumours and conjecture re admin or the lack thereof, including my own.

[alpine_saint]

Alpine if we had gone into administration and then got relegated the 10 points would get deducted next season anyway (see attached article)

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7965152.stm

 

So there would have been no benefit going into administration last week, unless we were certain we would stay up eg Darlington.

 

Nope, you've got that completely wrong, I'm afraid.

[alpine_saint]

Alpine, look at the people who stand to lose out via administration and then consider who are running the club. Then ask yourself whether it was any surprise.

 

I have been saying for ages on here that Lowe and Wilde would not allow the club to go into administration, not for the club's sake but for their own sake. I have also said for a long time that I would like to see the club go into administration. I have been in a minority in holding these opinions because, I think, people fail to consider the business implications which is reasonable I suppose given that we are, on the whole, passionate supporters.

 

The company will only go into admin when it suits the major shareholders. Until then I fear they will continue to take the club down the leagues.

 

 

Surely this proves once-and-for-all the necessity of administration ?

 

Lowe wouldnt be this stubborn if he were planning a post-admin buyout.

 

Therefore, administration guarantees we are rid of Lowe.

[alpine_saint]

Some of the replies on here are hillarious.

 

They go from deluded - "we arent going down" to very deluded "relegation doesnt mean administration follows"

 

No doubt that is why a lot of them are abusive replies.

 

[Ponty]

If we don't go down, and stay up by less than 10 points, then not taking voluntary administration is genius.

[Ken Tone]

Ken, I believe that attendances next season of around 10-12k will be the norm regardless of which leaue we are in unless the main shareholders sell to someone with the means and desire to invest and unless performances become a lot more consistent and we do well in the league.

 

I know a fair few supporters like myself who are falling out of love with football in general and who will not be renewing season tickets next year. The club will also be fighting against the effects of recession in a city that has been and will continue to be fairly hard hit.

 

Well you may be right. Who knows? I empathise with the 'falling out of love with football as a whole' feeling. I've been a regular attender at matches for some 38 years (christ! ..only just worked that out!) and am now increasingly depressed about the way money drives eveything in football, the boring dominance of a few big clubs etc. I wouldn't even look at the premiership results if it weren't for hoping portsmouth might be relegated ;-) I turn over from sky sports when yet another man u game comes on, couldn't give a damn about european football, hardly care about England games any more, etc.

 

But nonetheless I know myself well enough to recognise that this feeling is not unlike the drinker with a morning hangover saying 'never again'. If (no *when* ..let's have a bit of optinmism) Saints start doing well again, I'll be just as hooked as ever before.

 

And btw I'll be renewing my season ticket next year regardless of which division we're in --which is why football gets away with being run as badly as it is. We aren't 'customers' who will go to a competitor if we are unhappy. I'm not suddenly going to start watching rugby instead!

 

K.

[londonsaint1604]

I think you're watching a different team than me then...go down fighting?

 

Go down drinking more like.

 

Ok bad choice of words. What I meant was not going into administration, and therefore being relegated, with 8 games to go when the 3 teams above us are still within reach. That would be a total capitulation and would have no real benefit so I really don't understand the thinking behind it.

[Channon's Sideburns]

If we don't go down, and stay up by less than 10 points, then not taking voluntary administration is genius.

 

Appreciated Ponty, but can you see us winning that many games by the end of the season???

 

Lowe probably doesn't care - in fact he's done a better job of devaluing his own investment that Wilde ever did.

 

What an astute businessman he is - Askham must be sooooo proud.

[Channon's Sideburns]

Ok bad choice of words. What I meant was not going into administration, and therefore being relegated, with 8 games to go when the 3 teams above us are still within reach. That would be a total capitulation and would have no real benefit so I really don't understand the thinking behind it.

 

Fully understand what you are saying - it's up to them now - as the great Ron Moody once said in Summer Holiday...

 

'ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS'

[thefuriousb]

If we don't go down, and stay up by less than 10 points, then not taking voluntary administration is genius.

 

I'm afraid you are completely wrong ;-)

 

(tut tut everybody)

[Window Cleaner]

 

Lowe wouldnt be this stubborn if he were planning a post-admin buyout.

 

 

 

Oh yes he would, he's a very very stubborn man.Plus he doesn't decide all by himself you know.In fact being seen to battle against admin at all costs would be a + for him in any buy out attempt should administration be finally inevitable.

I think He, Wilde and Cowan are probably putting in a wee bit of money from their own sources even now.They want to stay up and get next season's pactole,it was the winning post from the moment they took over again.

Whether we'll stay up is 50/50 but until it becomes 20/80 we'll not go into administration and perhaps not even then. Depends what they've got lined up as sure fire player sales for the close season.There may be documents of intent for the sale of the few remaining values that we have to keep the bank silent if not happy.

[Clapham Saint]

Message to Clapham Saint and any other insolvency practitioners out there:

 

If the club went into administration how easy would it be for Lowe and co to buy it in the form of a pre-pack or otherwise?

 

Would the administrator have to shop around for a buyer or effectively advertise it for sale?

 

What criteria does an administrator have to consider when selling a company like this?

 

I think the answer to these questions will go a long way to answering some of the rumours and conjecture re admin or the lack thereof, including my own.

 

There is a long answer to this which involves refernces to the Insolvency Act and SIPs (Statement of Insovency Practice).

 

The short answer is that the Administrator will sell the club to whoever can come up with the most cash up front. (£5m (say) now is bettrer than £5.5m spread over the next 3 years) for example).

 

That may be Wilde and Lowe or it could be a consortium headed by Clapham Saint and Junior Mullet.

 

In reality Lowe and Wilde will have a small advantage becuase although the Administrator will not discuss any other bidders with them they will be ITK about any other interested parties which were touch over the last couple of years whilst they were Directors and will also be aware of any figures which have previously been discussed (if there have been any).

 

Joe Bloggs investor on the other hand won't have had access to this information.

[Channon's Sideburns]

Oh yes he would, he's a very very stubborn man.Plus he doesn't decide all by himself you know.In fact being seen to battle against admin at all costs would be a + for him in any buy out attempt should administration be finally inevitable.

I think He, Wilde and Cowan are probably putting in a wee bit of money from their own sources even now.They want to stay up and get next season's pactole,it was the winning post from the moment they took over again.

Whether we'll stay up is 50/50 but until it becomes 20/80 we'll not go into administration and perhaps not even then. Depends what they've got lined up as sure fire player sales for the close season.There may be documents of intent for the sale of the few remaining values that we have to keep the bank silent if not happy.

 

Nice to know there are people on here like you keeping your eyes open WC..

 

Lowe and Wilde coming back was all about who was in control WHEN we went into Admin, not to avoid it.

 

When the PR Spin is reviewed at the end of the season, everything mentioned will be designed to curry favour with the Administrators appointed by whom?....you've guessed it.

 

Put it this way, Rupey wants to hold the joystick..and will suddenly and miraculously find investment when it is right FOR HIM, not for the club.

 

It's probably already in the can, and they are waiting for the right moment...just after the match which determines our season I reckon.

 

Ken Bates, Jeff Mostyn, they did the same - Mostyn appointed Krasner, 'sold' afterwards to another group, and hey-ho...look Mostyn's never gone away from AFCB.

 

Ego driven the lot of them.

[trousers]

 

1. admin before deadline, minus ten this season, relegation, and start league one on -17

2. admin after deadline, minus ten this season, relegation, and start league one on -17

 

My understanding was that option (1) would result in less points deduction NEXT season than option (2)....?

[Ken Tone]

Message to Clapham Saint and any other insolvency practitioners out there:

 

If the club went into administration how easy would it be for Lowe and co to buy it in the form of a pre-pack or otherwise?

 

Would the administrator have to shop around for a buyer or effectively advertise it for sale?

 

What criteria does an administrator have to consider when selling a company like this?

 

I think the answer to these questions will go a long way to answering some of the rumours and conjecture re admin or the lack thereof, including my own.

 

Am not an insolvency practioner, but we've been through this before.

 

In short the administrator's first priority is to see that the club's creditors get as much of their money back as possible. He or she runs the club for the time being as cheaply as possible, with that in mind, whilst looking for a buyer.... any buyer. Second priority is to keep the club running as a long term entity, but really only as a way of ensuring the creditors (which may include unpaid employees) get paid.

 

Sentiment, history, tradition, all count for nothing. IMO administrator would sell off training ground, and even stadium if there is a buyer (admittedly unlikely), cancel as many players contracts as possible, selling off any that will raise a fee. Run with smallest squad possible....quality irrelevant. Results irrelevant. Stop any non-essential expenditure such as reserve/youth team/academy.

 

The possibility of Lowe buying back the club is hard to quantify. How much money has he elsewhere? Would he want to? I don't know. No one on here is likely to be sufficiently ITK to answer those questions I'd have thought. All we can say is that it is a finite possibility. The administrator will take whatever offer seems best for the creditors .. not best for the long term future, let alone the fans.

 

If no buyer is found in a reasonable time and debts remain with no prospect of improvement, he would eventually close the club down and sell off all assets. End of Saints.

 

K.

[Channon's Sideburns]

My understanding was that option (1) would result in less points deduction NEXT season than option (2)....?

 

Or Option 2 could leave us on -27 next season (10 for admin after deadline, other 17 for CVA non-agreement with IR).

 

We can't win games in this league with this squad, what the hell are we gonna do with half this team in L1???????????????

[Channon's Sideburns]

 

Sentiment, history, tradition, all count for nothing. IMO administrator would sell off training ground, and even stadium if there is a buyer (admittedly unlikely), cancel as many players contracts as possible, selling off any that will raise a fee. Run with smallest squad possible....quality irrelevant. Results irrelevant. Stop any non-essential expenditure such as reserve/youth team/academy.

 

K.

 

Bit of Deja Vu with that paragraph - sums up Rupey from this season quite succinctly.

[trousers]

Or Option 2 could leave us on -27 next season (10 for admin after deadline, other 17 for CVA non-agreement with IR).

 

We can't win games in this league with this squad, what the hell are we gonna do with half this team in L1???????????????

 

[Window Cleaner]

 

Not as flash as the one Jacqui Smith bought at Habitat for £550 though.

Maybe our local MP could just buy us and claim it on expenses.

[St Paul]

A couple of points I'd like to make.

 

SLH will only go into admin when is suits the major shareholders with the balance of power to do so. It is a business to Lowe and the timing of admin will be a business decision, not a football one.

 

The -10 points is written into the rules, however any deduction for coming out of admin without a cva is not. Luton and Bournemouth got a bigger duduction because they'd been in admin before( Luton also got an FA one). Chances are we'd be given -15, as the precident was set by Leeds, and that's what they got. Also if we dont owe the revenue, maybe we will be able to come out of admin with a CVA. It is only the revenue opposing fotball CVA's.Norwich Union and Barclays may be happy with X amount in the £, whereas the Revenue are opossing every football one out of principle.

[Window Cleaner]

A couple of points I'd like to make.

 

SLH will only go into admin when is suits the major shareholders with the balance of power to do so. It is a business to Lowe and the timing of admin will be a business decision, not a football one.

 

The -10 points is written into the rules, however any deduction for coming out of admin without a cva is not. Luton and Bournemouth got a bigger duduction because they'd been in admin before( Luton also got an FA one). Chances are we'd be given -15, as the precident was set by Leeds, and that's what they got. Also if we dont owe the revenue, maybe we will be able to come out of admin with a CVA. It is only the revenue opposing fotball CVA's.Norwich Union and Barclays may be happy with X amount in the £, whereas the Revenue are opossing every football one out of principle.

 

 

The -15 at Leeds was for some sort of dodgy dealing or other. It was not

specifically linked to the administration itself but to something untoward

during (or on exiting) administration.If you manage admnistration according to everybody's rules about it there are no automatic points penalties other than 10 points (whenever) for going into admin in the first place,unless of course you're a recividist..

[Oz]

yet another chance missed by lowe