WealdSaint Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 I would imagine that if there is a significant investor willing to take Saints on they would want to know exactly where we stand with regard to points deductions. A certain points deduction would obviously reduce the chance of us finding an investor. We are the first "big" club to be in this situation since the start of the credit crunch (I think?). If we find an investor then some confidence may return to the football financial world. If we don't find an investor and go under we will be the first of many I sadly suspect. If the FA impose a points deduction maybe it will set a whole pile of dominoes falling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladysaint Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Will we know for definite about a points deduction after the FA have met to discuss it on Tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 The FA don't impose points deductions. Even in the FA's Premier League it's the Premier League which would impose the points deduction (only 9 points there, just for the record), and any deduction we might have would be from the Football League, not the FA. Other than that I don't think anyone buying Saints is exactly going in with their eyes closed, are they ? They'd have to assume worst-case scenario and anything better than that is a bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topcat Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 It will just affect the price that SFC is sold for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Surely, even if the FA decide we're to get a points deduction it'll happen next season now, as we missed the cut off date for this season last week. It's not the penalty that worries me, it's finding a buyer within 3 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Incongruous Monk Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Surely, even if the FA decide we're to get a points deduction it'll happen next season now, as we missed the cut off date for this season last week. It's not the penalty that worries me, it's finding a buyer within 3 weeks. It'll be this season if we find enough points to stay up. It only applies next season if we're relegated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 It'll be this season if we find enough points to stay up. It only applies next season if we're relegated. Ah right... So what's the point of the cut off date then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Ah right... So what's the point of the cut off date then? Mind games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Ah right... So what's the point of the cut off date then? Is it not that before the cutoff date the deduction is always applied immediately, and after it they hold off to see where you finish before deciding when it will apply ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Ah right... Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Ah right... So what's the point of the cut off date then? Thought we'd done this one to death. Before cut off date, points deduction this season regardless of where you finish. After cut off date points deduction suspended till end of season. Then if the deduction makes enough difference to get us relegated when we would otherwise stay up, it is applied immediately, causing relegation. If it makes no difference because we are relegated anyway, it is applied next season in the lower division. So if you are definitely going to be relegated you want administration before cut off date so you lose points this season when it makes no difference, rather than next. By leaving it this late, if the Football League decides it applies, we lose the chance of getting away with it, and will be hurt one way or the other. K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Yeah, I forgot that bit. I also assume we'll be safe by 11 points anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfredKo Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 The wholly owned subsidiary companies of Southampton Leisure Holdings PLC are: Southampton Football Club Ltd St. Mary's Stadium Ltd St. Mary's SPV Ltd Southampton Insurance Services Ltd Southampton Mortgage & Financial Centre Ltd Saints Supporters Club Ltd Southampton Swaylife Ltd Secure Retirement Ltd Dell Estates Ltd St Michael's Street Homes (No. 1) Ltd Stadium 2000 Ltd Felix Broadcasting Ltd South City FM Ltd Forest FM Ltd Looks like Southampton Leisure Holdings PLC is the parent company of Southampton Football Club Ltd but not the football club itself and PLC does other bit of business as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Basically, after the cut-off date the points are applied when and where it's going to hurt the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Yay, another thread covering the exactly same ground as the last 50... with the same info cut n pasted from Wikipedia too! I would lock it and re-point you all, but whats the point when you would just open another thread followed by another one and then moan that the forum is slow. Hey ho! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slickmick Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Out of interest, if someone did buy us and honoured the existing debts as they stand, would the threat of a 10 point deduction be removed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Out of interest, if someone did buy us and honoured the existing debts as they stand, would the threat of a 10 point deduction be removed ? Theres a good chance of getting away with it as thats what Derby did, in effect they didnt gain by admin. If any debt is wiped off, Im pretty sure the points penalty will apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horley CTFC Saint Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Out of interest, if someone did buy us and honoured the existing debts as they stand, would the threat of a 10 point deduction be removed ? It depends purely on the League's viewpoint on whether SLH going into administration warrants a 10 pt penalty - honouring SFCs debt is a total red herring. In a sense the damage has been done - whatever that is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slickmick Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 It depends purely on the League's viewpoint on whether SLH going into administration warrants a 10 pt penalty - honouring SFCs debt is a total red herring. In a sense the damage has been done - whatever that is! It would only be the shareholders that have taken the hit, so can't see why we would still be penalised, as long as it was done before Tuesday. As it stands, I don't think weve got a cat in hells chance of avoiding a points deduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exit2 Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 The wholly owned subsidiary companies of Southampton Leisure Holdings PLC are: Southampton Football Club Ltd St. Mary's Stadium Ltd St. Mary's SPV Ltd Southampton Insurance Services Ltd Southampton Mortgage & Financial Centre Ltd Saints Supporters Club Ltd Southampton Swaylife Ltd Secure Retirement Ltd Dell Estates Ltd St Michael's Street Homes (No. 1) Ltd Stadium 2000 Ltd Felix Broadcasting Ltd South City FM Ltd Forest FM Ltd Looks like Southampton Leisure Holdings PLC is the parent company of Southampton Football Club Ltd but not the football club itself and PLC does other bit of business as well. That list is way way out of Date most have been sold or are non trading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Why do so many people say thay have been assured by the FL that a deduction does not apply ? ( Most recently at the administrator's press conference ). The one thing that seems certain to me is that it will end up in the courts; either Luton, Barnsley, Plymouth etc complaining we didn't get a deduction, or Saints ( assuming we are still viable in some way, shape, or form ) complaining that the FL reneged on an assurance. As usual the only people gaining will be lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Why do so many people say thay have been assured by the FL that a deduction does not apply ? ( Most recently at the administrator's press conference ). The one thing that seems certain to me is that it will end up in the courts; either Luton, Barnsley, Plymouth etc complaining we didn't get a deduction, or Saints ( assuming we are still viable in some way, shape, or form ) complaining that the FL reneged on an assurance. As usual the only people gaining will be lawyers. I think the same and I think it will be easy for the FL to side with the majority so that mean Saints will be penalised. If it goes to court, they are only up against 1 team, if no penalty is applied. They could be up against 5-10 teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Division South Days Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Im sure the FL will take legal advice and if they are told their own rules prevent them from docking points they surely would not do it. Similarly other clubs would be told the same and although not happy court action would be a waste of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martel Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 The FA don't impose points deductions. Even in the FA's Premier League it's the Premier League which would impose the points deduction (only 9 points there, just for the record), and any deduction we might have would be from the Football League, not the FA. Other than that I don't think anyone buying Saints is exactly going in with their eyes closed, are they ? They'd have to assume worst-case scenario and anything better than that is a bonus. I never understood the logic of a points deduction if a club goes belly up, the best analogy I can give is, that it is a bit like kicking a man when he is down, it all succeeds in doing is making a bad situation even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 I never understood the logic of a points deduction if a club goes belly up, the best analogy I can give is, that it is a bit like kicking a man when he is down, it all succeeds in doing is making a bad situation even worse. The points deduction is easy to understand. You have gained an advantage (well not so much in our case) by spending money you don't have and can't pay back. It's the same in all walks of life.You spend more than you have, you get punished eventually. Ordinary people do time or get their possessions seized,football clubs lose points which is supposed to deter others from doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 The points deduction is easy to understand. You have gained an advantage (well not so much in our case) by spending money you don't have and can't pay back. It's the same in all walks of life.You spend more than you have, you get punished eventually. Ordinary people do time or get their possessions seized,football clubs lose points which is supposed to deter others from doing it. But really it should be looked at with each individual case. The vast majority of our debt is due to the stadium which we got when in the prem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiltshiresaint Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 The points deduction is easy to understand. You have gained an advantage (well not so much in our case) by spending money you don't have and can't pay back. It's the same in all walks of life.You spend more than you have, you get punished eventually. Ordinary people do time or get their possessions seized,football clubs lose points which is supposed to deter others from doing it. I agree, but the Football League have already set the precedent by NOT deducting points from Derby County when their holding company went into administration. Correct me if I'm wrong, but on the basis that the rules have not been changed between then and now, the League are in no real position to deduct points, as the legal precedent has been set (as it happens, that's the least of my worries at this point in time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 The league may well wait until they see whether the club is bought and the debts settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 I think you can guarantee that there will be a points deduction, otherwise every club in the country will set up a holding company for next season. What I don't get is why did Lowe put us into admin just a few days after the deadline for taking the points hit this season - was it just out of spite? Whatever the reason it could have really screwed us up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eelpie Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Surely, even if the FA decide we're to get a points deduction it'll happen next season now, as we missed the cut off date for this season last week. It's not the penalty that worries me, it's finding a buyer within 3 weeks. I submitted this on another thread, but think it's place is here: 'From replies to the Standard's article: "Last week's deadline doesn't affect the fact of the 10-point penalty for entering administration, only its timing. Assuming that the argument that it's not the football club that is in administration, but its holding company, fails, the difference is that if administration had been entered before last Thursday, the 10-point deduction would have been immediate; having waited until after that date, the deduction is deferred until the end of the season, and if Saints are in the bottom 3 and relegated anyway, the deduction is imposed next season; if Saints manage to avoid the bottom 3, the deduction is imposed this season (which would probably put us back in the bottom 3 and still relegated)." Is that correct? ' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 I submitted this on another thread, but think it's place is here: 'From replies to the Standard's article: "Last week's deadline doesn't affect the fact of the 10-point penalty for entering administration, only its timing. Assuming that the argument that it's not the football club that is in administration, but its holding company, fails, the difference is that if administration had been entered before last Thursday, the 10-point deduction would have been immediate; having waited until after that date, the deduction is deferred until the end of the season, and if Saints are in the bottom 3 and relegated anyway, the deduction is imposed next season; if Saints manage to avoid the bottom 3, the deduction is imposed this season (which would probably put us back in the bottom 3 and still relegated)." Is that correct? ' Yes basically because Lowe put us into admin this week and not last we will probably start next season bottom of League 1 on -10. Or we pull off the great escape, only to be relegated by the Football League as they dock 10 points on the last day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Division South Days Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Probably wishful thinking but if administration has been probable for some weeks would not the club would have discussed the situation re points reduction with the FL? If they had and been assured there would not be a reduction in our case it would leave the FL in a very difficult position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Surely, even if the FA decide we're to get a points deduction it'll happen next season now, as we missed the cut off date for this season last week. It's not the penalty that worries me, it's finding a buyer within 3 weeks. Spot on! Regardless of points or league we need a buyer - optimism will follow regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 3 April, 2009 Share Posted 3 April, 2009 Two things from me. Firstly, whilst it is within the letter of the law, I just fear that the League will say it is not within the spirit of the law and will then invoke some other "catch all" clause and still deduct us points. Fingers crossed they don't invoke this other. Secondly, can someone point to anywhere that shows Derby did actually do this. I can't believe they didn't, but have yet to find it anywhere on the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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