dubai_phil Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 A worrying thought occurred to me over the weekend. We don't really know what the hold ups have been about or why, but one fact that is pretty clear is that the Football Club Ltd needs to have a solution very quickly in our "pre-packed" admin or it too will have an issue. I guess that if we do not pay the wages on time, then under FL rules, the PFA can step in but the FC Ltd would also need to be put into Admin. Others may know more as to whether this makes a takeover cheaper in terms of what the creditors get, but suddenly a look at this season's table shows that in order to simply STAY in League 1 we would need to come somthing like 7th with around 75 points, to get into the playoffs we would need 5 points MORE than Leicester achieved this season Somehow, somewhere, somebody is playing with the survival of the club, without a deal pre FC Ltd admin, will the fans really want to spend a guaranteed 2 years in L1? Is it really worth saving a million pounds or so on the buy price? Who on earth could be so arrogant as to think we could still get promoted next season with minus 25 points....? Oh crap, there is only one isn't there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rover Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 And I bet he spells arrogant with one r. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 we could get into the playoffs on -25 i reckon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 I'd take minus 25 over not existing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 The longer this p*ssing contest goes on between Pinnacle and Begbies Taylor, the greater the risk that -10 becomes -25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 18 May, 2009 Author Share Posted 18 May, 2009 we could get into the playoffs on -25 i reckon... hmmm On this season's table, if we hadn't have done we'd be in League 2 If somebody who delayed the rescue had a big enough budget then maybe but if it is somebody who'd been haggling with Fry over a few hundred k? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 They would only dock extra points if we failed to agree a CVA with the creditors - the only reason other clubs have been failing to do so is because of their liabilities to HMRC (or, more precisely, the percentage of their total debt owed to HMRC), who have a policy of rejecting them due to the bizarre and somewhat illogical "footballing creditors" rule the Football League has. The fact that people are talking about a deal worth less than £10m suggests that our creditors are quite willing to negotiate (quite why Barclays pulled the plug in this case is even more strange and suspicious), so a CVA shouldn't be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red and White Army Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Somehow, somewhere, somebody is playing with the survival of the club, without a deal pre FC Ltd admin, will the fans really want to spend a guaranteed 2 years in L1? Is it really worth saving a million pounds or so on the buy price? Phil - are you involved - tangentially or otherwise - in any bids? I think there should be full disclosure of anyone with any interest (other than our shared interest as fans!) spinning this kind of thing on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 18 May, 2009 Author Share Posted 18 May, 2009 The longer this p*ssing contest goes on between Pinnacle and Begbies Taylor, the greater the risk that -10 becomes -25 IF that is the case then yes I would be worried IF it isn't the case and it is something else, then I'd be VERY worried Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 A worrying thought occurred to me over the weekend. We don't really know what the hold ups have been about or why, but one fact that is pretty clear is that the Football Club Ltd needs to have a solution very quickly in our "pre-packed" admin or it too will have an issue. I guess that if we do not pay the wages on time, then under FL rules, the PFA can step in but the FC Ltd would also need to be put into Admin. Others may know more as to whether this makes a takeover cheaper in terms of what the creditors get, but suddenly a look at this season's table shows that in order to simply STAY in League 1 we would need to come somthing like 7th with around 75 points, to get into the playoffs we would need 5 points MORE than Leicester achieved this season Somehow, somewhere, somebody is playing with the survival of the club, without a deal pre FC Ltd admin, will the fans really want to spend a guaranteed 2 years in L1? Is it really worth saving a million pounds or so on the buy price? Who on earth could be so arrogant as to think we could still get promoted next season with minus 25 points....? Oh crap, there is only one isn't there Well Phil, Don't you have anything more cheerful to write about on a Monday morning ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 IF that is the case then yes I would be worried IF it isn't the case and it is something else, then I'd be VERY worried You sound worried Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 The longer this p*ssing contest goes on between Pinnacle and Begbies Taylor, the greater the risk that -10 becomes -25 What are you basing that on ? The risk is that the takeover doesn't come in time to save the club but it shouldn't affect an additional points deduction either way unless the FC is suddenly required to agree a CVA - despite not being in Admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 What are you basing that on ? The risk is that the takeover doesn't come in time to save the club but it shouldn't affect an additional points deduction either way unless the FC is suddenly required to agree a CVA - despite not being in Admin. If a buyer isnt found, one of two things is going to happen to SFC. It will be liquidated by Fry, in which case, it could be -25000 points and it wouldnt make a difference It will go into admin itself as it runs out of money, a CVA will be needed, in which case it will be -25 points or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildgoose Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Hang on a minute......Somebody help me here please! If the holding company and the club have already been deemed to be one and the same by the FL then they can't hit us with more points for the club going into admin, as in their estimation it has already happened! Surely we can only be hit with more penalty points if the CVA doesn't happen properly...... ......or am I missing something here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Hang on a minute......Somebody help me here please! If the holding company and the club have already been deemed to be one and the same by the FL then they can't hit us with more points for the club going into admin, as in their estimation it has already happened! Surely we can only be hit with more penalty points if the CVA doesn't happen properly...... ......or am I missing something here? Are you seriosuly asking for someone to predict what the FL might rule? Might as well toss a coin! No, in all seriousness I think you are correct. If the football club goes into admin it would be completely illogical to impose another penalty as that is precisely what the 10 point deduction has already been applied for. As to the CVA - there won't be one for the PLC, it is going to be wound up. The stock exchange announcement last week made that pretty clear. If the club goes into admin, the usual FL rules would apply I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 18 May, 2009 Author Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Phil - are you involved - tangentially or otherwise - in any bids? I think there should be full disclosure of anyone with any interest (other than our shared interest as fans!) spinning this kind of thing on here. I am not involved in any bids, I have signed nothing with anyone on anything. As previously stated I know MJ & SG and with others had beers from here with them after the forum match and we talked, as we have done as fans and businessmen for a couple of years now. Also, co-incidentally I know friends who know Fry from their work environment Have I given MJ & SG some advice? Yes, was it critical to the bid? No What I have done is to try and help VERY basically on a couple of areas that I have some knowledge which is media & marketing, and "due or business processes" and which can be basically summed up as STFU, and of course the simple concept that Fry will have to follow a process and it will be frustrating - if you understand that then you will be able to make progress, if you try and treat it like some form of deal doing then you wil get nowhere. I don't think STFU is any great secret, most on here would agree! And on the other point, Clapham Saint and others were saying much the same thing on here in the early days I can pick up pieces like others, but cannot pick up micro details. Some of what I hear in general terms scares me, but as I don't know whether that is emotive or factual means I like others try and be discrete, as if I cannot tell if it is fact or fiction why expect anyone else. There is a very good "Fiction" book that could be written about this whole process and I hope that FF can one day get people together to put together ALL the pieces I hear speculation and sometimes I try and drop a hint. I haven't posted anything as a FACT (unlike many). ALL I worry about is that SOMEONE gets us out of this goddamned mess, which I do believe is very close to what MLT also said So there, that is simply a rehas of what I have said over the past weeks and years. Of course as I've been around for ages it gets forgotten. Perhaps others of the newer arrivals could be open. FF has stated that he spoke to Leon, some stated that they speak to players or staff but I don't recall many others who post "updates" This thread was something that started to worry me last week when the Friday didn't happen. Now as for spin? No I see this as a very valid nightmare SHOULD nothing get resolved in time to pay the wages, don't think it is picking any sides, neither of the supposed bidders nor the supposed "Foreign Interest" seem to be able to get over the finishing line. Shouldn't we ALL be worried a little? Isn't that why we all press F5 every 10 minutes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 The complexity is that despite the FL seeing us a a single entity, from a liquidation perspective, we will be seperate - eg if SLH goes into liquidation as I understand it, FRy will then sell assets singly with SFC still having value as holding player contracts? The issue for Fry at the moment is he is trying to get a deal that is best for Creditors, now this may mean them taking 30p in the pound OR a fdeal that sees a greater return but on renotiating teh terms of loans etc - its tehse complexities that hold things up as well as teh proof of funding etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 This is from the Football Leagues statement when imposing the ten point penalty: "...In light of all this advice, the Board concluded that an administrator had been appointed in respect of the Club or part of its undertaking or assets. Accordingly, it was left with no alternative other than to invoke its 'Sporting Sanctions' regulations and apply a 10 point penalty to the Club. The other provisions of The League's insolvency policy also become effective." So I think they can do what they want and we're likely to be totally screwed with other penalties coming our way if debts are not paid in full! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 If a buyer isnt found, one of two things is going to happen to SFC. It will be liquidated by Fry, in which case, it could be -25000 points and it wouldnt make a difference It will go into admin itself as it runs out of money, a CVA will be needed, in which case it will be -25 points or worse. Fry's Q&A says if admin fails "it is likely that the FC will enter insolvency": http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/articles/article.php?page_id=11582 Likely, though admittedly not definite... but it is by definition UNlikely that the FC isn't bought and isn't closed down, which is the most likely circumstance in which a CVA is needed. More to the point, if we get to the state where it's no club at all or some kind of rubbish desperate last minute takeover chaos, leading to a failed CVA, return of the golden share, another -15 and limping through League One, I think most people would take the latter and be glad of it by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 personnally I would refrain from trying to gert posters not to post or make them feel unable to post little scraps they get.I read with interest all of phils posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 18 May, 2009 Author Share Posted 18 May, 2009 personnally I would refrain from trying to gert posters not to post or make them feel unable to post little scraps they get.I read with interest all of phils posts The question doesn't bother me, and if it was asked in a genuine manner by someone fairly new that's fine, and I think I answered it. We all read this forum so we can get some news, but we also learnt a lot about etiquette in the PA days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildgoose Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Are you seriosuly asking for someone to predict what the FL might rule? Might as well toss a coin! No, in all seriousness I think you are correct. If the football club goes into admin it would be completely illogical to impose another penalty as that is precisely what the 10 point deduction has already been applied for. As to the CVA - there won't be one for the PLC, it is going to be wound up. The stock exchange announcement last week made that pretty clear. If the club goes into admin, the usual FL rules would apply I suppose. Thanks :-) That helps. As for predicting anything, who knows what the FL will do from day to day, the way they act it seems they have it in for any club who is struggling and just help to put the final nails in the coffin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheff Saint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Would it be in our interests to go bust if we had to start next season with minus 25? Assume someone friendly buys the ground and we can start in the conference, would that be better? Ultimately we'll be in League 2 come 10/11 if we start next year on -25. Good chance of that if we went bust as well... Just a thought. Personally i'd prefer us to be in League one, there is something more admirable about that. I just wonder if this is influencing the talks? Probably not but in the absence of any other news, just my mind working over time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 Would it be in our interests to go bust if we had to start next season with minus 25? Assume someone friendly buys the ground and we can start in the conference, would that be better? Ultimately we'll be in League 2 come 10/11 if we start next year on -25. Good chance of that if we went bust as well... Just a thought. Personally i'd prefer us to be in League one, there is something more admirable about that. I just wonder if this is influencing the talks? Probably not but in the absence of any other news, just my mind working over time! Speaking as a Newport County (1912-1989) fan who is yet to see the reformed club come within one division of where the club was in its final full season, no, it would not. Also, I'd be interested to see the response of the rest of the non-League community if we completely bypassed their pyramid, "big crowds" or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horley CTFC Saint Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 What happened about appealing the 10 point penalty was that just bravado or has it been done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 What happened about appealing the 10 point penalty was that just bravado or has it been done? I suspect we're struggling to pay the legal fees right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 18 May, 2009 Share Posted 18 May, 2009 The club will be wound up if it isn't bought out. It's not an issue about points, it is survive or disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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