View Poll Results: Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

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    8 5.06%
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    2 1.27%
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    88 55.70%
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Thread: Brexit - Enter at Your Own Risk

  1. #16001

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    I was led to believe that the Barnier PowerPoint was a load of ****. We’re the UK, we hold all the cards, we have German carmakers and Italian Prosecco producers on our side, we’ll get a bespoke deal, we’ll get a better deal than the Canadians while giving up less. Where’s all the fighting talk gone lads?

    #climbdown

  2. #16002

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Thats why your posts are so risible. Until today you didn't even know the UK had different terms with Australia. You certainly have never read the documents. Yet you lap it up as 'good thing'. Huzzah Wes! Huzzah! You must have a nose ring, given how much you get led.
    Like when Les and fellow swivels were obsessed with Canada +++? Whatever happened to +++?

  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    What happened to Barrnier’s legendary slides that remoaners took great pleasure quoting earlier in the process.


    Illustrating points Barnier made to EU leaders to start negotiating a post-Brexit trading relationship with London, the chart showed a series of descending steps associated with different countries' levels of access to the EU single market.


    At the top was EU membership, next membership of the European Economic Area (EEA). Switzerland followed that, etc etc , down to Canada. Or as the media we’re briefed, directly quoting Barnier “a free trade pact like that with South Korea or Canada.”

    Was Barnier lying then, or now?











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    Is lying bad, now?

  4. #16004

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    What happened to Barrnier’s legendary slides that remoaners took great pleasure quoting earlier in the process.


    Illustrating points Barnier made to EU leaders to start negotiating a post-Brexit trading relationship with London, the chart showed a series of descending steps associated with different countries' levels of access to the EU single market.


    At the top was EU membership, next membership of the European Economic Area (EEA). Switzerland followed that, etc etc , down to Canada. Or as the media we’re briefed, directly quoting Barnier “a free trade pact like that with South Korea or Canada.”

    Was Barnier lying then, or now?



    Should listen to what he said rather than what is reported. He didn't say the UK couldn't have a trade agreement. He simply said the nature of the agreement wouldn't be the same as Canada or Japan because the trade is different - ie lots of perishable foods, just in time manufacturing parts and services which geographically remote countries don't have.

  5. #16005

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Should listen to what he said rather than what is reported. He didn't say the UK couldn't have a trade agreement. He simply said the nature of the agreement wouldn't be the same as Canada or Japan because the trade is different - ie lots of perishable foods, just in time manufacturing parts and services which geographically remote countries don't have.
    You forgot the EU fishing fleets plying Canadian and Japanese territorial waters.
    Last edited by badgerx16; 18-02-2020 at 07:31 PM. Reason: 3 'a's in Canada

  6. #16006

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    You forgot the EU fishing fleets plying Candian and Japanese territorial waters.
    Surely that's a factor that should help us in negotiations?

  7. Default

    “The European Union’s chief Brexit negotiator has repeatedly insisted that Britain cannot have a bespoke deal and that the future relationship must be based on a pre-existing arrangement between the bloc and a non-EU country.”

    So if it can’t be like Canada or Japan , which country is it going to be like then?




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  8. #16008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    “The European Union’s chief Brexit negotiator has repeatedly insisted that Britain cannot have a bespoke deal and that the future relationship must be based on a pre-existing arrangement between the bloc and a non-EU country.”

    So if it can’t be like Canada or Japan , which country is it going to be like then?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ade_agreements

  9. #16009

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    "you can't have a bespoke deal, you have to have a pre-existing deal but you can't have that pre-existing deal you can only have the one we choose" isn't exactly a reasonable stance in a negotiation. Either we are distinct enough from other countries that we need something bespoke or we aren't. Sounds a fair bit like cake and eating it from the EU.
    Last edited by hypochondriac; 18-02-2020 at 07:38 PM.

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    “The European Union’s chief Brexit negotiator has repeatedly insisted that Britain cannot have a bespoke deal and that the future relationship must be based on a pre-existing arrangement between the bloc and a non-EU country.”

    So if it can’t be like Canada or Japan , which country is it going to be like then?
    Australia

  11. Default

    The Prime Minister's press office is now tweeting this wailing sh ite. I mean, really?


    In 2017 the EU showed on their own slide that a Canada type FTA was the only available relationship for the UK. Now they say it’s not on offer after all. @MichelBarnier what’s changed? https://t.co/ve8zeAqbSZ

  12. #16012

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Thats why your posts are so risible. Until today you didn't even know the UK had different terms with Australia. You certainly have never read the documents. Yet you lap it up as 'good thing'. Huzzah Wes! Huzzah! You must have a nose ring, given how much you get led.
    You're wrong. There was no reason to mention it before, was there? It has only entered the conversation recently by Boris and Frost.

    When are you going to cough up the £50 for charity because we aren't going to have a Norway style deal, Timmy? Surely you cannot believe that there is a snowball's chance in hell of it happening now? You be a good boy and pay it now, and if incredibly it does come about, I'll double it. Fair enough?

  13. #16013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You're wrong. There was no reason to mention it before, was there? It has only entered the conversation recently by Boris and Frost.

    When are you going to cough up the £50 for charity because we aren't going to have a Norway style deal, Timmy? Surely you cannot believe that there is a snowball's chance in hell of it happening now? You be a good boy and pay it now, and if incredibly it does come about, I'll double it. Fair enough?
    Plenty of twists and turns to come yet. Still sure we're going to go for WTO?
    Last edited by buctootim; 18-02-2020 at 10:25 PM.

  14. #16014

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    "you can't have a bespoke deal, you have to have a pre-existing deal but you can't have that pre-existing deal you can only have the one we choose" isn't exactly a reasonable stance in a negotiation. Either we are distinct enough from other countries that we need something bespoke or we aren't. Sounds a fair bit like cake and eating it from the EU.
    They're setting out their red lines. Just as they did shortly after May triggered Article 50. Did you think they'd cave?


    2017

  15. #16015

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    They're setting out their red lines. Just as they did shortly after May triggered Article 50. Did you think they'd cave?


    2017
    Yes I'm aware. The point is you can't call for safeguards that aren't present in other trade deals and also deny the UK a bespoke deal. If there are unique geographical and economic circumstances with the UK then there needs to be a unique deal that factors that in. Understandably the EU wants to protect themselves but for us to make some level playing field commitments we would need to get something out of it too. Why would we agree to essentially give up any competitive advantage for nothing in return when gaining that competitive advantage was one of the whole reasons for brexit? Hardly mutually satisfactory. In an ideal world, the UK would agree to some level playing field commitments- as long as they don't remove our ability to do trade deals with the rest of the world- and a generous deal on fisheries and in return the EU will agree to a bespoke deal that allows good market access to some of the sectors most important to the UK.

    The question is will the EU prefer to deny the UK that reasonable option and potentially have a country on their doorstep determined to use their newly gained powers to gain an advantage over them or would they prefer to curb the powers of the UK in return for a deal that the UK actually wants?
    Last edited by hypochondriac; 19-02-2020 at 04:44 AM.

  16. #16016

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Plenty of twists and turns to come yet. Still sure we're going to go for WTO?
    The bet wasn't about WTO though, was it? It was about you being willing to put money on us doing a Norway style deal. Are you man enough to admit that you got that wrong and be prepared to do the honourable thing and pay the £50 to benefit a charity?

  17. #16017

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    Genuine one for the Brexiters. Which piece of EU imposed labour protection legislation are you most looking forward to losing and why? Same for environmental protection for consumer question. Not wanting to pick an argument or anything, just interested as currently teaching and tutoring Global Systems and Governance at A Level Geography at present and want some ideas counter to mine that I can paraphrase to show both sides. Genuine request. Thanks

  18. Default

    We're just like Canada we are.

  19. #16019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winnersaint View Post
    Genuine one for the Brexiters. Which piece of EU imposed labour protection legislation are you most looking forward to losing and why? Same for environmental protection for consumer question. Not wanting to pick an argument or anything, just interested as currently teaching and tutoring Global Systems and Governance at A Level Geography at present and want some ideas counter to mine that I can paraphrase to show both sides. Genuine request. Thanks
    Interesting article for environmental policy... is it there to protect the environment or EU industry?

    https://www.ft.com/content/0432eb26-...4-11f260415385

  20. #16020

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    http://www.eurointelligence.com/publ...020-02-18.html

    Another interesting article regarding the current sabre-rattling between us and the EU, level playing fields, no deal etc. Why the EU need to be disabused of any feeling that we could be bluffing over our willingness to accept no deal, rather than one that surrenders to Barnier's level playing field anchored in EU law.

  21. #16021

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    We're just like Canada we are.
    Tbf though it was the EU themselves who mentioned Canada. We obviously are very different from Canada which is why we need a bespoke deal which takes that into account and a compromise needs to be struck between giving the EU some level playing field safeguards and allowing Britain the manoeuvrability to strike other trade deal and change things to give themselves some advantages. Surely that's just common sense?
    Last edited by hypochondriac; 19-02-2020 at 12:14 PM.

  22. #16022

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    Tbf though it was the EU themselves who mentioned Canada. We obviously are very different from Canada which is why we need a bespoke deal which takes that into account and a compromise needs to be struck between giving the EU some level playing field safeguards and allowing Britain the manoeuvrability to strike other trade deal and change things to give themselves some advantages. Surely that's just common sense?
    In September 2018 Boris set out the concept of a "Super Canada" deal.

  23. #16023

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    In September 2018 Boris set out the concept of a "Super Canada" deal.
    Would the word 'super' make it exactly the same as the Canada deal or something potentially different?

  24. #16024

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Bognor View Post
    Interesting article for environmental policy... is it there to protect the environment or EU industry?

    https://www.ft.com/content/0432eb26-...4-11f260415385
    Cant't read the article - but the short answer is its doing both. High wage economies cant compete on price so they compete on higher added value aided by import duties. You could have a system where by the cheapest dirtiest products are sourced from the lowest cost sweatshops you can find. But then you wipe out your domestic industries, drive down wages, drive up unemployment and end up living in something like the environmental disaster that is Chennai.
    Last edited by buctootim; 19-02-2020 at 01:23 PM.

  25. #16025

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    Would the word 'super' make it exactly the same as the Canada deal or something potentially different?
    Would make it bigger and more wide ranging. Covering things like say f'instance, alignment, agriculture, just in time, labour standards.....

  26. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    In September 2018 Boris set out the concept of a "Super Canada" deal.
    Which is 10 months after Barnier told EU leaders that Britain’s only alternative to a ‘no deal’ Brexit was a Canada-style trading arrangement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Would make it bigger and more wide ranging. Covering things like say f'instance, alignment, agriculture, just in time, labour standards.....
    So a 'bespoke' deal then?

  28. #16028

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Which is 10 months after Barnier told EU leaders that Britain’s only alternative to a ‘no deal’ Brexit was a Canada-style trading arrangement.
    Meh. He used Canada to illustrate an EU -Third country trade deal. There was never any suggestion any two deals would be the same. The EU were clear exactly what a trade deal would look like very shortly after May triggered Article 50 - one based on reciprocity.
    Last edited by buctootim; 19-02-2020 at 01:41 PM.

  29. #16029

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    So a 'bespoke' deal then?
    Yes of course. They are all bespoke to the extent that each country wants something different. That doesnt mean though that, for example, we could start reshipping cheap chlorinated antibiotic laden chicken to the EU and they would dismantle their standards for us, especially if we werent allowing in similar products from them.

    The whole point is to create ca level playing field. You run a pub / restaurant I think. Your place only survives because your local competitors also have to pay at least minimum wage, have premises inspected for hygiene, pay business rates etc. You wouldnt accept it if the pub next door suddenly stopped doing that, undercutting you.
    Last edited by buctootim; 19-02-2020 at 01:42 PM.

  30. #16030

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    The bet wasn't about WTO though, was it? It was about you being willing to put money on us doing a Norway style deal. Are you man enough to admit that you got that wrong and be prepared to do the honourable thing and pay the £50 to benefit a charity?
    Haha, you get more desperate by the day Wes. I'll pay when the Fat Lady sings and deal is signed and ratified.

  31. #16031

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Haha, you get more desperate by the day Wes. I'll pay when the Fat Lady sings and deal is signed and ratified.
    Naturally you will attempt to put off admitting that you got the outcome badly wrong for as long as possible. You obviously miss the irony accusing me of desperation, when I expect that there is nobody else on here who believes for one second that we will end up with the Norway option. Yet you are prepared to hold out a forlorn hope that it might just still happen, so your credibility as a forecaster is therefore shot to pieces.

  32. #16032

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Naturally you will attempt to put off admitting that you got the outcome badly wrong for as long as possible. You obviously miss the irony accusing me of desperation, when I expect that there is nobody else on here who believes for one second that we will end up with the Norway option. Yet you are prepared to hold out a forlorn hope that it might just still happen, so your credibility as a forecaster is therefore shot to pieces.
    You're desperate because you keep on urging the bookies to pay up because your bet is ahead at half time. I agree Norway looks less likely than two years ago. But then so does WTO. Johnson has successfully boxed himself in. The last Parliament voted a number of times against no deal. It remains to be seen whether this Parliament will do the same

  33. #16033

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    It was about you being willing to put money on us doing a Norway style deal. Are you man enough to admit that you got that wrong

    Blimey. In Les's eyes you have to be a man to admit to having made a wrong prediction. What a strange world he inhabits when only if you are "man enough" do you admit to having made a wrong prediction.

    I suppose though that explains why Les regularly disappears from this forum after he has taken yet another pasting from the likes of Shurlock.

  34. #16034

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    The whole point is to create ca level playing field. You run a pub / restaurant I think. Your place only survives because your local competitors also have to pay at least minimum wage, have premises inspected for hygiene, pay business rates etc. You wouldnt accept it if the pub next door suddenly stopped doing that, undercutting you.
    That is incredibly blinkered way of looking at things. You are assuming that a business only survives because through regulation, they are forced to follow the same rules as others.

    The fact is, if one pub is better than the other pub, by offering customers what they want (whether that be a better product, better service, better atmosphere or better prices), that pub will prosper despite the regulations, not because of them.

    It’s the same reason why the iPhone, owned by a US company and manufactured by the Chinese is the bestselling handset in Europe, despite there being no trade deals with either the US or the Chinese.

    Give customers what they desire and the regulators can go **** themselves

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    Thanks for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Bognor View Post
    That is incredibly blinkered way of looking at things. You are assuming that a business only survives because through regulation, they are forced to follow the same rules as others.

    The fact is, if one pub is better than the other pub, by offering customers what they want (whether that be a better product, better service, better atmosphere or better prices), that pub will prosper despite the regulations, not because of them.

    It’s the same reason why the iPhone, owned by a US company and manufactured by the Chinese is the bestselling handset in Europe, despite there being no trade deals with either the US or the Chinese.

    Give customers what they desire and the regulators can go **** themselves
    Even as a paraphrased vox pop quote I might be in trouble if I used that last bit in my lesson on free trade!

  37. #16037

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Bognor View Post
    That is incredibly blinkered way of looking at things. You are assuming that a business only survives because through regulation, they are forced to follow the same rules as others.

    The fact is, if one pub is better than the other pub, by offering customers what they want (whether that be a better product, better service, better atmosphere or better prices), that pub will prosper despite the regulations, not because of them.

    It’s the same reason why the iPhone, owned by a US company and manufactured by the Chinese is the bestselling handset in Europe, despite there being no trade deals with either the US or the Chinese.

    Give customers what they desire and the regulators can go **** themselves
    Take a class in 101 economics and educate yourself on market failures such as externalities.

  38. #16038

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    You're desperate because you keep on urging the bookies to pay up because your bet is ahead at half time. I agree Norway looks less likely than two years ago. But then so does WTO. Johnson has successfully boxed himself in. The last Parliament voted a number of times against no deal. It remains to be seen whether this Parliament will do the same
    We've moved on rather a lot in the past few months, in case you hadn't noticed. The House has now been cleansed of the idiots who would deliberately stymie our negotiating position by telling the other party that no matter what happened, we would not leave unless we had negotiated a deal. At the same time, gone are large numbers of those who would have been content with continuing to pay into the EU coffers, accept free movement of people, and the jurisdiction of EU law over our own, all required by the Norway option. Go ahead and believe that it might still come about, but you look like a complete fool for doing so. Anybody else on here who thinks that we might yet go for the Norway option? Tamesaint? Gavyn?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    We've moved on rather a lot in the past few months, in case you hadn't noticed. The House has now been cleansed of the idiots who would deliberately stymie our negotiating position by telling the other party that no matter what happened, we would not leave unless we had negotiated a deal. At the same time, gone are large numbers of those who would have been content with continuing to pay into the EU coffers, accept free movement of people, and the jurisdiction of EU law over our own, all required by the Norway option. Go ahead and believe that it might still come about, but you look like a complete fool for doing so. Anybody else on here who thinks that we might yet go for the Norway option? Tamesaint? Gavyn?
    So you’ve moved on from having your cake and eating it - preserving a similar trading relationship with the EU without being part of it and the obligations of membership? What happened Les? The German carmakers got lost on their way to Merkel’s office?
    Last edited by shurlock; 19-02-2020 at 04:26 PM.

  40. #16040

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    So you’ve moved on from having your cake and eating it - preserving a similar trading relationship with the EU without being part of it and the obligations of membership? What happened Les? The German carmakers got lost on their way to Merkel’s office?
    Les is not "man enough" to admit that he was wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    So you’ve moved on from having your cake and eating it - preserving a similar trading relationship with the EU without being part of it and the obligations of membership? What happened Les? The German carmakers got lost on their way to Merkel’s office?
    You must be thinking of somebody else, Gavyn. I've always been for leaving the EU since Maastricht, as I've said many times before. I've always wanted to leave the SM and the CU, so that we could take back control of our borders, our money, our laws and our trade, to put it into the well employed nutshell phrase. The situation regarding the German Car makers and other goods manufactured by them, the French agricultural products they sell to our consumers, ditto the main exports to us from other EU countries, they will naturally wish to continue selling to us. Up until recently, the EU member states, in particular the Germans, have maintained a solidarity of purpose, giving the impression that the unity of their Union is more important than the prosperity of individual industries. That facade is beginning to show cracks as it becomes clear that Boris and Frost aren't as hopeless in negotiations as May and Robbins, and there is no longer a fifth column available to abet them in the HoC any more, but instead a massive mandate to get Brexit done.

    I linked to an interesting article earlier that discussed these cracks. It said:-

    The German media, for example, have been and continue to be complacent about Brexit. For three years, they were in denial that Brexit would happen. They focused their reporting efforts on the second referendum campaign. The tenet of the current batch of reports is that the UK's negotiating position is irresponsible, against the interests of the EU, and therefore unrealistic.

    We are not sure what will happen to the cohesion of the EU's position when people suddenly realise that the UK might leave on WTO terms. The UK is the single largest source of Germany's export surpluses.

    Also:-

    The EU is, of course, the stronger partner in the relationship but, if the talks break down and there is no deal, the EU will have no means under WTO rules to stop the import of UK goods. For so long as the UK is not bluffing, the UK is logically in a stronger negotiating position because it can unilaterally achieve its primary goal of regulatory independence, while the EU cannot achieve its opposing goal without the UK's consent. The EU can, of course, withhold a trade agreement. But, given the EU's trade surplus, such a decision would produce a net financial flow from the EU to the UK in terms of collected tariffs. We saw an estimate from the UK parliament of the order of some £6bn a year. Have EU negotiators even considered this asymmetry?
    The number of other snippets reporting cracks in the EU's unity, whether it be MEPs' dissent towards the EU's stance against us, other member states growing increasingly unhappy about their own membership, concerns about how they will manage their budget without our contributions, these things are increasing to be reported on a daily basis as time grows shorter to the end of the year. The EU think that we will blink first before then. Time for Boris to tell them that we aren't coming to the table for talks until they stop making these stupid demands of theirs.

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    Who knew we had 8.5 million people who will now apply for jobs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamesaint View Post
    Les is not "man enough" to admit that he was wrong.
    You appear to have missed me asking for your opinion on whether you thought it likely whether we would be leaving the EU as part of a Norway style deal. What do you reckon? I expect that you voted to remain in the referendum, didn't vote Conservative in the recent election, may have even thought that the ERM was a good idea all those years ago. If so, there isn't much you have got right, is there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You must be thinking of somebody else, Gavyn. I've always been for leaving the EU since Maastricht, as I've said many times before. I've always wanted to leave the SM and the CU, so that we could take back control of our borders, our money, our laws and our trade, to put it into the well employed nutshell phrase. The situation regarding the German Car makers and other goods manufactured by them, the French agricultural products they sell to our consumers, ditto the main exports to us from other EU countries, they will naturally wish to continue selling to us. Up until recently, the EU member states, in particular the Germans, have maintained a solidarity of purpose, giving the impression that the unity of their Union is more important than the prosperity of individual industries. That facade is beginning to show cracks as it becomes clear that Boris and Frost aren't as hopeless in negotiations as May and Robbins, and there is no longer a fifth column available to abet them in the HoC any more, but instead a massive mandate to get Brexit done.

    I linked to an interesting article earlier that discussed these cracks. It said:-



    The number of other snippets reporting cracks in the EU's unity, whether it be MEPs' dissent towards the EU's stance against us, other member states growing increasingly unhappy about their own membership, concerns about how they will manage their budget without our contributions, these things are increasing to be reported on a daily basis as time grows shorter to the end of the year. The EU think that we will blink first before then. Time for Boris to tell them that we aren't coming to the table for talks until they stop making these stupid demands of theirs.
    Deliberately sidestepping the point I see. But hey climbdowns are painful things.

  45. #16045

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamesaint View Post
    Les is not "man enough" to admit that he was wrong.
    He’s an absolute mess. But who knows - now that we’re threatening to go WTO (and really we mean it), I’m sure the EU will cave and give UK the frictionless trade and the cake that the Brexiters promised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Meh. He used Canada to illustrate an EU -Third country trade deal. There was never any suggestion any two deals would be the same. The EU were clear exactly what a trade deal would look like very shortly after May triggered Article 50 - one based on reciprocity.
    He specifically said a trade deal wouldn’t be bespoke, and it would be based on an existing deal. In light of that, it baffles me that anyone can state “there was never any suggestion that any two deals would be the same”. You’re just clutching at straws. Saying no two deals will be the same and but you can’t have a bespoke deal is contradictory. There are only 2 options, a deal similar to an existing one or a bespoke one.

    Clearly what’s happened is they wanted to pressure May by threatening something she wouldn’t ever agree to, Canada, but are now ****ting themselves when Boris says “yes please”.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    He specifically said a trade deal wouldn’t be bespoke, and it would be based on an existing deal. In light of that, it baffles me that anyone can state “there was never any suggestion that any two deals would be the same”. You’re just clutching at straws. Saying no two deals will be the same and but you can’t have a bespoke deal is contradictory. There are only 2 options, a deal similar to an existing one or a bespoke one.

    Clearly what’s happened is they wanted to pressure May by threatening something she wouldn’t ever agree to, Canada, but are now ****ting themselves when Boris says “yes please”.


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    I think you're right there.

  48. #16048

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    He specifically said a trade deal wouldn’t be bespoke, and it would be based on an existing deal. In light of that, it baffles me that anyone can state “there was never any suggestion that any two deals would be the same”. You’re just clutching at straws. Saying no two deals will be the same and but you can’t have a bespoke deal is contradictory. There are only 2 options, a deal similar to an existing one or a bespoke one.

    Clearly what’s happened is they wanted to pressure May by threatening something she wouldn’t ever agree to, Canada, but are now ****ting themselves when Boris says “yes please”.


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    Thicker by the day.

    By bespoke, Barnier simply meant that the UK wouldn’t be able to cherrypick the best bits of EU and that the more redlines the UK insisted on, the less market access that it would enjoy. That’s all the PowerPoint ever meant - that the UK’s redlines, as envisioned by the Lancaster House speech, pushed it towards a basic FTA - examples including (but not limited to) Canada and South Korea. Basic FTAs that focus on tariff and quota elimination will have certain shared features but that doesn’t mean that each one will literally be the same (a MLG-type nonsequitur).

    Of course, at the time, you completely rubbished Barnier’s ppt and the suggestion that there was a trade-off between market access and sovereignty. After all, the UK’s alleged upper hand meant it could have its proverbial cake and eat it - that fighting talk looks idiotic, embarrassing and delusional by the day as now recognised by members of the government. Don’t say we didn’t warn you.

    Let’s be clear, from 2017 onwards, Barnier made it clear that the size and proximity of the UK meant it would not be treated like Canada. That’s been repeated at various stages, including the Political Declaration last October which the government signed up to -along with various level playing field conditions.

    The PD is not legally binding (unlike the NI Protocol which incidentally has some nasty little surprises on state aid not just for NI but the entire UK that may come back to haunt you https://www.ft.com/content/c606c934-...0-43d18ec715f5). Still it has more authority than the disingenuous whining from No. 10 which you’ve bought quicker than a Laura Kuennsberg fake news tweet

    See Peter Foster of the Daily Telegraph who has tweeted on the subject and demolished your little case.

    Let’s also be clear that the UK isn’t even asking for a Canada FTA. It wants market access that is much more extensive, including tariff-free, quota-free trade on all products — even for sensitive parts of the agriculture sector such as beef and dairy. By definition the EU will demand more concessions for that additional access.

    Regarding your final point, all Johnson has done by pretending the political declaration doesn’t exist and downplaying the commitments in the NI protocol (no checks in the Irish Sea) is signal to the EU that the UK cannot be trusted, leading it to believe it needs to take a more hardline position (I expect it to soften, though not massively). Along with the refusal to extend the transition under any circumstance, the UK has reduced its room for manœuvre and made a suboptimal outcome for all more (the EU included) likely even before negotiations have started.

    Ultimately it’s all moot. It’s a negotiation and each side can demand what it likes as it perceives its own interests. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen little fella.
    Last edited by shurlock; 19-02-2020 at 09:56 PM.

  49. #16049

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You appear to have missed me asking for your opinion on whether you thought it likely whether we would be leaving the EU as part of a Norway style deal. What do you reckon? I expect that you voted to remain in the referendum, didn't vote Conservative in the recent election, may have even thought that the ERM was a good idea all those years ago. If so, there isn't much you have got right, is there?
    No. I don't think that we will leave the EU with a Norway style deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamesaint View Post
    No. I don't think that we will leave the EU with a Norway style deal.
    That's very sensible. How about Gavyn? What do you reckon, Norway style deal a possibility? Any takers apart from Timmy?

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