View Poll Results: SWF Exit Poll

Voters
40. You may not vote on this poll
  • Conservatives

    21 52.50%
  • Labour

    12 30.00%
  • Liberals

    6 15.00%
  • Brexit

    1 2.50%
  • SNP/Plaid

    0 0%
  • Green

    0 0%
  • Independant

    0 0%
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Thread: General Election 2019 - Post Match Reaction

  1. #2251

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    Yes. And the Tories knew that which is why they were desperate to have an election and avoid another referendum. To say this election demonstrates that the will of the people is clearly Leave simply isn't correct. The country is just as split as it was a month ago.

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    Good grief, give it up man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    I donít get your point. It was an election, not an EU ref.
    A (very slim, admittedly) majority of the electorate voted for parties backing a 2nd ref. But FPTP means we have ended up with a huge parliamentary majority for a party pushing for a hard Brexit.

    The notion that they are carrying out 'the will of the people' is false.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    Yes. And the Tories knew that which is why they were desperate to have an election and avoid another referendum. To say this election demonstrates that the will of the people is clearly Leave simply isn't correct. The country is just as split as it was a month ago.

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    You're obviously a bit tired this morning, so your grey matter isn't functioning properly. You make the very elementary mistake of assuming that if a party was either pro-leave or pro-remain, then all of its voters would be too. Just as there are Conservative voters who voted to remain in the EU, there are also Labour, Lib Dumb, Greens, SNP, Plaid voters who were for leave. Brexit Party voters are the only ones you can exclude realistically. HTH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    A (very slim, admittedly) majority of the electorate voted for parties backing a 2nd ref. But FPTP means we have ended up with a huge parliamentary majority for a party pushing for a hard Brexit.

    The notion that they are carrying out 'the will of the people' is false.
    This is my point. Johnson saying Brexit is the "unarguable decision of the British people" on the basis of winning an election isn't true.

    But Brexit will now happen. Just hope for a trade deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    If you want to describe yourself as a blinkered thicko donít let me stop you. If you canít see how divided the country is that is your problem.
    Self-deprecating irony is totally lost on you, isn't it? I'm poking fun at you for your ridiculous whining assertion that a firm mandate for pushing Brexit through is more divisive than a hung parliament renegotiating the whole withdrawal treaty with two further referendums would be, even before the original referendum decision had been honoured three and a half to four and a half years after the event

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You're obviously a bit tired this morning, so your grey matter isn't functioning properly. You make the very elementary mistake of assuming that if a party was either pro-leave or pro-remain, then all of its voters would be too. Just as there are Conservative voters who voted to remain in the EU, there are also Labour, Lib Dumb, Greens, SNP, Plaid voters who were for leave. Brexit Party voters are the only ones you can exclude realistically. HTH
    I think you're the tired and confused one. I didn't say that at all. Just that, because the Tories have won a big majority, it doesn't mean there is an equally big majority for Brexit.

    But it was a clear and successful tactic to go down the election rather than confirmatory referendum route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    I think you're the tired and confused one. I didn't say that at all. Just that, because the Tories have won a big majority, it doesn't mean there is an equally big majority for Brexit.

    But it was a clear and successful tactic to go down the election rather than confirmatory referendum route.

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    The pro brexit question keeps winning the argument when the public have a say.

    Jesus Christ.

    Anyway, it was obvious that Bojo would comfortably be PM this morning. Hung parliament my arse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    I think you're the tired and confused one. I didn't say that at all. Just that, because the Tories have won a big majority, it doesn't mean there is an equally big majority for Brexit.

    But it was a clear and successful tactic to go down the election rather than confirmatory referendum route.

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    Indeed. Les doesnít realise heís undermined his own argument and shown why only a second referendum can gauge true sentiment on Brexit. Anyway itís all moot for now. The gift that keeps on giving and there will be plenty more of that in 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    A (very slim, admittedly) majority of the electorate voted for parties backing a 2nd ref. But FPTP means we have ended up with a huge parliamentary majority for a party pushing for a hard Brexit.

    The notion that they are carrying out 'the will of the people' is false.
    That’s based on the assumption that EVERYONE who voted, did so in accordance with Brexit and nothing else. I’ll bet there were plenty of Labour votes in northern areas, from people who are predominantly leave voting. People for whom a Corbyn government and winning a second ref. Seemed like the best option.

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    I have Jewish mates who voted Remain but ended up siding with Johnson because of antisemitism in the Labour Party.

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    Just for the record my ‘will of the people’ comment was directed purely at the Lib Dem’s for denying the referendum result !
    I did not say that it applied to this election !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    That’s based on the assumption that EVERYONE who voted, did so in accordance with Brexit and nothing else. I’ll bet there were plenty of Labour votes in northern areas, from people who are predominantly leave voting. People for whom a Corbyn government and winning a second ref. Seemed like the best option.
    No doubt, but there is simply no way of knowing. There were probably a lot of people who voted remain but still went with the Tories this time round because they could never bring themselves to vote for anyone else.

    The point is that this election result doesn't prove that Brexit is still the will of the people. Only a second ref can confirm that, but it's clearly not going to happen now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    No doubt, but there is simply no way of knowing. There were probably a lot of people who voted remain but still went with the Tories this time round because they could never bring themselves to vote for anyone else.

    The point is that this election result doesn't prove that Brexit is still the will of the people. Only a second ref can confirm that, but it's clearly not going to happen now.
    We don't need it confirmed, it was decisive the first time and only those who lost want another go at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    We don't need it confirmed, it was decisive the first time and only those who lost want another go at it.
    Simply not true.

    In the last 3.5 years I've seen and spoken to plenty of people who voted leave but have now changed their minds because we were so badly informed in 2016.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    Simply not true.

    In the last 3.5 years I've seen and spoken to plenty of people who voted leave but have now changed their minds because we were so badly informed in 2016.
    Of course there are likes of Hypo who are badly informed but would still vote Leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    Simply not true.

    In the last 3.5 years I've seen and spoken to plenty of people who voted leave but have now changed their minds because we were so badly informed in 2016.
    I haven't, I think even if that is true its a very small number. I have remainder friends who think the right and democratic thing to do is to honour the result of the original referendum. One of them voted Conservative despite voting to remain because he believes that democracy is more important

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    No doubt, but there is simply no way of knowing. There were probably a lot of people who voted remain but still went with the Tories this time round because they could never bring themselves to vote for anyone else.

    The point is that this election result doesn't prove that Brexit is still the will of the people. Only a second ref can confirm that, but it's clearly not going to happen now.
    I wouldn’t doubt any of that but it isn’t what you said. You’ve lumped together completely different parties in a GE, based purely on what you regard as the default positions of each party on Brexit, and used that to criticise FPTP.

    The Tories have the second biggest vote percentage since 1979 I believe, only 1% behind Labour’s landslide in ‘97. If that doesn’t give them the right to govern I don’t know what does.

  18. #2268

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Of course there are likes of Hypo who are badly informed but would still vote Leave.
    You still don't understand. I think some of you never will.

  19. #2269

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    I wouldn’t doubt any of that but it isn’t what you said. You’ve lumped together completely different parties in a GE, based purely on what you regard as the default positions of each party on Brexit, and used that to criticise FPTP.

    The Tories have the second biggest vote percentage since 1979 I believe, only 1% behind Labour’s landslide in ‘97. If that doesn’t give them the right to govern I don’t know what does.
    They got 43% of the vote, but have ended up with 56% of the seats in parliament. This means that even accounting for a handful of rebels in the party, they can push through whatever legislation they want without needing to rely on support from other parties. The net result of this is that over 50% of the electorate effectively have no representation in parliament.

  20. #2270

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    #stillwhining

  21. #2271

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    They got 43% of the vote, but have ended up with 56% of the seats in parliament. This means that even accounting for a handful of rebels in the party, they can push through whatever legislation they want without needing to rely on support from other parties. The net result of this is that over 50% of the electorate effectively have no representation in parliament.
    In 2001 Labour got 40% of the vote and 63% of the seats. Which enabled them to take us into an illegal war.

    Everybody knows the system but only complain when itís gone against what they wanted.

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    In an unexpected development I have been linguistically enriched. During an interview yesterday evening, Jess Phillips referred to ďa listicleĒ. I have never heard this word before and although I suspect I shall not use it myself, I am pleased to have stumbled across it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Itís just an observation as John Curtice and other commentators pointed out. So much for the idiosyncrasies of FPTP and an election that inevitably mixed myriad other issues because Brexiters didnít have the bottle to put the question directly back to the people. Anyway itís all moot now (as it has been since 2016). I voted tactically Les because I have no real party allegiances. Iím fine. Someone as skilled and mobile as me has always been fine pal. Iím just perplexed by the s**tshow thatís about to come, though on one level oddly upbeat as there is no more hiding place for the Brexiters to deliver. And if you (and other chumps) can read, Iíve always been more focused on the costs and trade-offs of Brexit, not the politics per se. In the end, reality always wins.
    You just can't accept that it was undemocratic to have a second/third referendum before the result of the last one had been enacted, can you? The blame for the massive Labour defeat is split between those who think Corbyn was to blame for it, or whether Labour voters in Leave voting seats felt betrayed by their remoaner MPs. You're going to come into some serious ridicule if you pursue the line that Brexiteers didn't have the bottle to put the question to the electorate. The question had been put, had been answered and had been ignored, hence the repercussions yesterday.

    As it's all moot now, kindly stop bleating about it. As you say, reality always wins. Today is the reality of the repercussions of the last three and a half years, and I'm happy for you that you are lucky enough to take an "I'm alright Jack, blow you" attitude towards it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    I think you're the tired and confused one. I didn't say that at all. Just that, because the Tories have won a big majority, it doesn't mean there is an equally big majority for Brexit.

    But it was a clear and successful tactic to go down the election rather than confirmatory referendum route.

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    You're tying yourself in knots. You did say precisely that. So you accept that despite a party adopting a particular position on Brexit, that a percentage of their voters adopt the opposite stance and therefore cannot be included in some hypothetical Party vote percentage for or against Brexit? I''ll still allow you the excuse that you might be tired.

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    Amazing listening to some of the Corbynistas explaining away this historic loss as solely down to brexit and the media. They just don't get it, they will never admit the problems with corbyn and their approach. I'm not sure how Labour is going to be able to get rid of these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    No doubt, but there is simply no way of knowing. There were probably a lot of people who voted remain but still went with the Tories this time round because they could never bring themselves to vote for anyone else.

    The point is that this election result doesn't prove that Brexit is still the will of the people. Only a second ref can confirm that, but it's clearly not going to happen now.
    A second referendum would have been dangerous for Johnson as it would have been decided on the Brexit issue alone. A major factor in the GE win was the campaign against Corbyn who didn't have the support of many in his own party and was easily portrayed as unfit.

    Excluding other parties from debates was also critical as it reinforced the idea of a binary choice.

    The Tories won on two tactics. Brexit weariness - we can make it go away, never mind the detail; and the demonisation of Corbyn - stop him at all costs, and you can only do that by voting Tory.

    It worked.

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    The choice at this election was between leaving the EU and maybe staying in, maybe leaving with a far left loony in charge, the idea that it is an accurate gauge on the public’s view of Brexit is just nonsense. There would have been plenty of remainers who voted Tory for a whole load of reasons, mainly their manic spending plans.

    Labours policy on Brexit was just a shambles, they deserved to have the arse ripped out their vote. A second refurendum makes sense but it would have had to have been Boris’ deal vs remain to have any legitimacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    *big photo*
    So what you're basically saying is you'd rather have a hung parliament at every election?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You're tying yourself in knots. You did say precisely that. So you accept that despite a party adopting a particular position on Brexit, that a percentage of their voters adopt the opposite stance and therefore cannot be included in some hypothetical Party vote percentage for or against Brexit? I''ll still allow you the excuse that you might be tired.
    Oh dear. Maths isn't your strong point, is it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    So what you're basically saying is you'd rather have a hung parliament at every election?

    A Parliament that actually represents the vote share does make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You just can't accept that it was undemocratic to have a second/third referendum before the result of the last one had been enacted, can you? The blame for the massive Labour defeat is split between those who think Corbyn was to blame for it, or whether Labour voters in Leave voting seats felt betrayed by their remoaner MPs. You're going to come into some serious ridicule if you pursue the line that Brexiteers didn't have the bottle to put the question to the electorate. The question had been put, had been answered and had been ignored, hence the repercussions yesterday.

    As it's all moot now, kindly stop bleating about it. As you say, reality always wins. Today is the reality of the repercussions of the last three and a half years, and I'm happy for you that you are lucky enough to take an "I'm alright Jack, blow you" attitude towards it.
    Iíve repeatedly said Iím deeply ambivalent about a second referendum per the likes of Rory Stewart. Iím simply pointing out that the sweeping inferences drawn from the GE result about support for Brexit are hogwash and thereís only one way to test that support. Alas you agree with me, so we can park that one.

    I think youíve confused even yourself with your last sentence. Self-interest isnít why I think Brexit, as itís been sold, is a ridiculous idea. If you think that, youíve obviously not read or understood any of my posts over the past three years despite your manic desire to respond to them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    So what you're basically saying is you'd rather have a hung parliament at every election?
    I certainly would. It's the only way to stop wild swings between extreme policies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    Yes that looks rather too simplistic.

    Whatever a UK PR system would be it definitely would not be as basic as all votes for the whole nation divided into exactly proportional seats.

    Areas still need MPs that represent their opinions and MPs would need a connection to a constituency to reflect the differences in areas.

    So would be a combination of constituency seats and regional top-ups to make it more proportional.

    Anyway, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    It's a stupid argument to make. If we had proportional representation the votes would have been completely different

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    A Parliament that actually represents the vote share does make sense.
    Do you believe having a permanent coalition government would be a good way to run the country?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    Yes that looks rather too simplistic.

    Whatever a UK PR system would be it definitely would not be as basic as all votes for the whole nation divided into exactly proportional seats.

    Areas still need MPs that represent their opinions and MPs would need a connection to a constituency to reflect the differences in areas.

    So would be a combination of constituency seats and regional top-ups to make it more proportional.

    Anyway, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.
    There is no reason why MPs couldn’t be allocated constituencies that best reflect the vote. Surely it has to be better than this red v blue nonsense going on for eternity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    So what you're basically saying is you'd rather have a hung parliament at every election?
    He's also taking the figures from an election where PR is NOT an option and rather simplisticly applying the results. He's seemingly forgotten about the 'tactical' votes during this election and the effect they have had on the results. Results that are not going to be achieved if PR is used as the voting system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Do you believe having a permanent coalition government would be a good way to run the country?
    Yes. All governments are coalitions anyway because Peter Bone and Justine Greening are poles apart as are Denis Skinner and David Miliband but they all served as part of parties with working majorities.

    Lots of countries have rolling coalitions and quite frankly it could work perfectly well.

    And say qhat you like about the Conservative/Lib Dem coalition but it was very disciplined - more than Major, Brown or Camerons majorities anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Do you believe having a permanent coalition government would be a good way to run the country?
    Absolutely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    There is no reason why MPs couldnít be allocated constituencies that best reflect the vote. Surely it has to be better than this red v blue nonsense going on for eternity.
    What I've described is a combination of voting for a representation by an individual identifiable MP for geographic areas plus a top up list to better reflect proportionality, again by area.

    I haven't made it up, it's how Germany and Scotland do it and used elsewhere but I can't be bothered to look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    There is no reason why MPs couldn’t be allocated constituencies that best reflect the vote. Surely it has to be better than this red v blue nonsense going on for eternity.

    Because they wouldn't reflect the vote. Put everyone in their strongholds with the biggest margin, okay fine. Then what? Using this election as an example, tell me where you'd put the 64 extra Liberal MPs who nobody wanted?

    You could only put them in the marginals. Imagine Meon Valley being told "sorry, we've used up the quota of Tories, we need to 'allocate' you a Labour MP." You would have a very polite, middle class riot. Every election would end up with liberal MPs pigeonholed into constituencies where the vote might be Con - 23,000, Lab - 21,000, Lib - 6,000. It'd be an absolute farce.

  43. #2293

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You just can't accept that it was undemocratic to have a second/third referendum before the result of the last one had been enacted, can you? The blame for the massive Labour defeat is split between those who think Corbyn was to blame for it, or whether Labour voters in Leave voting seats felt betrayed by their remoaner MPs. You're going to come into some serious ridicule if you pursue the line that Brexiteers didn't have the bottle to put the question to the electorate. The question had been put, had been answered and had been ignored, hence the repercussions yesterday.

    As it's all moot now, kindly stop bleating about it. As you say, reality always wins. Today is the reality of the repercussions of the last three and a half years, and I'm happy for you that you are lucky enough to take an "I'm alright Jack, blow you" attitude towards it.
    I was a remoaner but had accepted the result, watching Alistair Campbell today on ITV where he still couldn't bring himself to accept that the message has been lost. It was pathetic how these people believe they know best and that the 'poor' are not bright enough to make their own minds up and people like him have to decide for them. Hence these strong Labour seats have revolted against these people

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    They got 43% of the vote, but have ended up with 56% of the seats in parliament. This means that even accounting for a handful of rebels in the party, they can push through whatever legislation they want without needing to rely on support from other parties. The net result of this is that over 50% of the electorate effectively have no representation in parliament.
    Real bad news for the SNP then (whoopee!) as they got 45% of the vote and 80% of the seats !
    Wee Jimmy Krankie is very adept at using percentages when it suits but when you bear down on actual numbers the message falls apart !
    2.2 mil voted to stay in the UK in 2014, 1.6mil voted to stay in the EU IN 2016, not that you’d ever know it when you hear the rhetoric of the SNP !

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    Quote Originally Posted by whelk View Post
    Labour fella on BBC banging on about them having the greatest ever manifesto. Yeah thatís what it was
    to be fair it was....for Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurosaint View Post
    30% of the electorate, not of votes cast.

    And 3 million fewer votes for the Conservatives than voted for Brexit in the referendum.

  47. #2297

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    Quote Originally Posted by whelk View Post
    Unemployment isnít funny Wes
    I dont think they will have to go to the job centre.I think there is some kind of safety net for these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post

    It's interesting to look at and reminds me of the situation here.

    There's more to it than this as well. Once you have this situation, where no vote is wasted, then all of those hundreds of thousands who voted Tory or labour because "there's no point voting any other way" will no longer have that fact inhibiting them voting for what they really believe in. So votes for the Green party, the libdems, Brexit (or whatever fills that void), socialist or nationalist parties become much more legitimate and they can grow to become major parties in a way that they cannot at the moment, because they are "wasted votes".

    Our biggest parties here are currently Conservative, Labour (the biggest, but not in power), the far right, nationalist party, the greens and the liberals.

    I can't see any circumstances where the major parties would allow a change to PR though, so it's fairly pointless to consider.

  49. #2299

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    You get what you vote for. Theresa May herself said not that long ago that the Tories were in danger of turning into the Nasty Party and that is exactly what has happened. By draining the swamp as Duckie keeps saying, all of the reasonable stuff has gone and we are now left with a few fat toads. You only have to look at the reaction by the rabid right on here to see why a Tory landslide was feared.
    Come on SOG not everyone is like that. The fact is Labour backed the wrong horse and was prepared to lurch so far left it was always going to be difficult to get them in. Even though they tried bribing all and sundry a large slice were not foolish enough to believe it. It was a crushing defeat and proves that our society doesn't really fancy a Marxist who sidled up to enemies of our nation. He got what he deserved and I myself hope that Boris goes through with what he said in his speech this morning

  50. #2300

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    I admire your optimism Nick but I don’t share it. Johnson has removed many moderates and his front bench is very poor, as is he. His strength is as a front man and it is a worry as to who will be pulling the strings.

    As for Corbyn, whatever you think of him, Labour’s plans were far better for most of us than Tories thin manifesto. Working in coalition with the LibDems they could have made a decent fist of repairing the damage done to the country in the last decade.

    I feel most disappointed for my 3 children though. They are all in their early 20’s and were desperate to see a change of Government and more hope for the future. All we can hope for now is that both Labour and the LibDems sort themselves out and form a decent opposition so that we have something to look forward to in 5 years time.

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