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Do you think it may be man-management


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After going through a few threads I had a quick flashback to a conversation with one of my more senior bosses yesteday.

 

I have been harping on about having an appraisal as i have recently spent a short time working under another manager, senior to me by a single promotion. I got to be honest that he is called thrush for a reason, (please insert the punchline). I am master of my own destiny now, and away from him. We discussed the fact that he is trying to offload a number of individuals that are crap workers and just don't perform for him. Included in this are a couple of old hands and a new starter. I also have a new starter that has worked for him before and he has labled 'Crap'. I told my boss that I would have them as i have never had a problem with any of them and i believe, (with certain foreman of course) that I get the best out of them. My rival has labled me as being weak and too soft to give them the **** they deserve to motivate them, and that I must let them get away with murder.

 

The similie my boss gave was with the Saints team currently. He is a die hard fan of west Ham but, being the crafty old bastard that he is, he knows his staff inside and out. Anyway I digress. He pointed out that, instead of me getting defensive, he understands that we all have different management styles, some that work, some that don't.

 

Here is the crux. Rather that AP signing players that are really worth a fortune, that excell and are the best, don't you think that this is all down to his ability to not only identify where we are lacking, but individuals that will not only fit into the team, but individuals that he believes he could get the best out of? Also, building a team should also be about the team and not individuals. It should be about taking the time to integrate the people together and motivate them to success, together. Some do it by fear, some by intimidation, some by sheer bloody mindedness. If we were in the trenches, men would follow me over the top through sheer force of will and the fact that they would follow me anywhere.

 

So, Alan Pardew. When he looked at the team, the club, the crap we were in and the up hill struggle he stopped, thought, 'I know what to do and who I want'. And lets be honest. You go up to a player and say, 'Hey, do you want to play for a team that will probably get relegated, again, with no hope of going any where, and you will spend a season getting older and not progressing, but you'll get a few quid' and they say, 'Yeh, ok. I'll give it a go. But do you think we'll get relegated then.'

'No ****ing way!' Also, lets be honest. Kelvin and Adam should have buggered off somewhere else, but were confinced to stay. And somewhere in my mind there is a little South African born midfield player sat in orange, fed up with saying 'Give us a game boss', thinking to himself, 'I wish I was back there.'

And there are those that he has inherited and he has thought, 'No, not my sort of player, wrong mentality. I have been watching you and you could have done better in the past, but you didn't. You either shape up, or ship out. And don't let the door hit you on the arse when you leave.'

 

And lets not forget the man who looked at a dead duck and thought, 'Hey, that thing aint dead yet. I could give that some help, I know a man who could give that the kiss of life, because under them feathers is a race horse.' But this is about Pards.

 

So, my message is that things are going well at the moment and long may they continue. but things do go sour at times. we have a team that is performing, for both Him, Us and the club. They may not perform for someone else.

 

There you go, discuss in a cogent, well thought out manner, using rational agument and parliamentary procedure.

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Wow wanders more than an average DP post :-)

 

In essence, Football is a team game. In business, bad managers TALK about team work and hold team building events. Actually understanding how to do it and creating the team is not something that gets learnt in a book or in a field in Wales.

 

In work, new employees coming in to a job will upset a team ethic, their ego, their experience, even their levels of productivity - can be seen as a threat to the incumbents. In football with players treated as cattle by agents, team work is the last thing on most players minds.

 

So with us, yes the "Chemistry" is important, us fans have been through hell, as in reality will the players. That gave a solid base from which to build.

 

Using a forum analogy, the Stanley's have been banned (ie sent out on loan), the negatives have been won over and the optimistics have emerged from the woodwork and in reality we have become a more together "team" of fans. It shows with the attendances and the support at games. There are still some posters who don't quite get the programme but they tend to only get the occassional appearance on the bench these days.

 

Much the same has happened with the team.

 

Football is played by Teams, work is performed by teams, SO many egotistical types (be they Lowe or the "promoted above their competence line manager) fail to understand that creating a GREAT TEAM is very difficult - a skill that mixes understanding with experience with "feel".

 

But in business, you create a great team then they will ALWAYS outperform a bunch of "Corporate A**holes"

 

Good OP

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A team functions best if everyone in the team a) has a specific role and b) knows and understands what that role is and what is expected of them.

 

That, and bringing in some talent and experience is what Pardew has done in my opinion.

 

I have no idea what his individual man-management skills are - but now I do know all about yours. Thanks for letting me read all about you and your management skills. Are you a narcissistic personality disorder sufferer? :)

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A team functions best if everyone in the team a) has a specific role and b) knows and understands what that role is and what is expected of them.

 

That, and bringing in some talent and experience is what Pardew has done in my opinion.

 

I have no idea what his individual man-management skills are - but now I do know all about yours. Thanks for letting me read all about you and your management skills. Are you a narcissistic personality disorder sufferer? :)

 

No, I'm just not one of those 'shout and you'll get it done' types. I am well educated but realise that, because I put peoples lives at risk every day by assesing their risk and giving them a safe system of work, I don't know it all so I bow to their experience as well.

 

Besides, how do you determine my management skills by third hand ramblings of someone who sees me as a threat to him if/when I am promoted to the same level as him, as we were a year back?

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The essence of our upward progress is epitomised in the thread about the number of former captains in our team. Pardew has been astute enough to fill the team either with leaders, or those players who are able to follow leaders without question or attitude problems. This extends to the management structure he has assembled under him too, with Wilkins and Downes.

Ultimately, IMO the foremost attribute that a manager can have is the ability to command the respect of his players. This respect is earned from the players' knowledge of his record as a player and as a manager elsewhere, the way that he treats the players, as the respect must be mutual to work and the recognition that what the manager expects of the players is achievable. He must have a vision of where he wants the team to go and he must tell the players what he thinks their part in that will be. He must lead by example. For the younger players, he should be like a father figure, guiding them. Sometimes he must be firm and appear to be hard on them; at other times, an arm around the shoulder and gentle words work better.

 

As far as it is discernable, the teams spirit is good, there do not appear to be divisions in the team, the respect seems to be there, as well as the desire. So from those perspectives, Pardew does appear to be a good man-manager.

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Everyone thinks that whatever their own management style is, is the the one that works.

 

It's like the way that everyone thinks they are a good driver, when demonstrably most of us aren't. Well let's be honest; what I really mean is most of you aren't. I'm just trying to win you over by phoney empathy ... another good management tool that the OP's boss seems to have perfected ;-)

 

I've seen and experienced management by fear and by positive motivation ...'love' for short. Both work actually. 'Love' works a bit better than fear, but it's harder to achieve.

 

As to Saints, yes Pardew will have his own style which will suit some more than others. When *the* overall boss of an organisation changes, it causes changes all through that organisation. Some workers adapt .. others leave.

 

K.

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No, I'm just not one of those 'shout and you'll get it done' types. I am well educated but realise that, because I put peoples lives at risk every day by assesing their risk and giving them a safe system of work, I don't know it all so I bow to their experience as well.

 

Besides, how do you determine my management skills by third hand ramblings of someone who sees me as a threat to him if/when I am promoted to the same level as him, as we were a year back?

 

No offence. Maybe I've misinterpreted what you wrote and I hope you saw the smilie which was intended to mean that my comment was light-hearted. When I read your post I was just struck by how comfortable you were talking in glowing terms - about yourself.

 

As I said perhaps I misread it.

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OK, how about another analogy?

 

We are not a 1st Division club, we have the ability to be a Premiership club again, with all the makings still in place. If, god willing, we are able to get back there.

 

Hope that clarifies things for you.

 

 

 

God has nothing to do with football, it's a known fact.

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There you go, discuss in a cogent, well thought out manner, using rational agument and parliamentary procedure.

 

Parliamentary procedure? What, put in expenses and then defend the divisive claims with a 15 minute monologue, justifying the fraudulent claims with an inane, sycophantic verbosity?!

 

Sorry - couldn't resist! I'm with you, different management achieve different result. Some management are great business heads with no people skills and zero motivational influence, others aren't so concise and shrewd with business decisions but have tremendous people skills, displaying leadership and good results through motivated team players/employees. Overall, you need a healthy balance. Good business sense and competency in the said field with astute decision making and a well chosen management team. Combine that with well selected employees (i.e. squad) and a motivational leader (Pardew) and you've a winning team...no pun intended!

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God has nothing to do with football, it's a known fact.

 

Interesting.

 

Without the belief system based on the Abrahamic version of God, then no-one would have the belief that His son was put on Earth in the form of Jesus. Now, if you take away Jesus, you lose Christianity. Without Christianity you lose the fact that some Holy persons are canonised as Saints.

 

Bang goes our nickname for a start!

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The essence of our upward progress is epitomised in the thread about the number of former captains in our team. Pardew has been astute enough to fill the team either with leaders, or those players who are able to follow leaders without question or attitude problems. This extends to the management structure he has assembled under him too, with Wilkins and Downes.

Ultimately, IMO the foremost attribute that a manager can have is the ability to command the respect of his players. This respect is earned from the players' knowledge of his record as a player and as a manager elsewhere, the way that he treats the players, as the respect must be mutual to work and the recognition that what the manager expects of the players is achievable. He must have a vision of where he wants the team to go and he must tell the players what he thinks their part in that will be. He must lead by example. For the younger players, he should be like a father figure, guiding them. Sometimes he must be firm and appear to be hard on them; at other times, an arm around the shoulder and gentle words work better.

 

As far as it is discernable, the teams spirit is good, there do not appear to be divisions in the team, the respect seems to be there, as well as the desire. So from those perspectives, Pardew does appear to be a good man-manager.

 

Well said and something I'd bleated on about for ages but each of our previous managers have failed to address. Redknapp tried to bring in leaders (and spoke about it) like Quashie amongst others but this momentum was short lived by his departure. Claus being our captain for so long spoke volumes - good player for us but not the best captain imho.

 

For too long we have lacked leadership on and off the pitch. Pardew needs to be commended for coming in and instantly addressing this, along with many more in-ground traits (defending set pieces, lack of pace, aerial weakness, losing mentality, strange mindset of squad players, lack of self-discipline, etc.) within the club that have gone ignored and hampered our development for many years.

 

It fills me with confidence to have a manager that has seen and addressed problems within the club that many fans have noticed (and all the things we are not aware of behind the scenes, of which I am sure there are PLENTY) for quite some time. Onwards and upwards.

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Interesting.

 

Without the belief system based on the Abrahamic version of God, then no-one would have the belief that His son was put on Earth in the form of Jesus. Now, if you take away Jesus, you lose Christianity. Without Christianity you lose the fact that some Holy persons are canonised as Saints.

 

Bang goes our nickname for a start!

 

 

Well ,I don't go in for any of it.I don't do funerals,weddings(other than civil),christenings or any other organised necromancy.Everybody understands and is OK with it. Still I support the Saints all the same, but just the footballing version ;)

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No, I'm just not one of those 'shout and you'll get it done' types. I am well educated but realise that, because I put peoples lives at risk every day by assesing their risk and giving them a safe system of work, I don't know it all so I bow to their experience as well.

 

Besides, how do you determine my management skills by third hand ramblings of someone who sees me as a threat to him if/when I am promoted to the same level as him, as we were a year back?

 

But not in how to write clearly and succinctly.

 

I suggest you listen to your boss, who sounds as if he was trying to tell you that both approaches can be useful at different times. There is no single right or wrong way all the time. It doesn't sound as if you were listening. Take head out of ar*e for a minute - you'll hear better.

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After going through a few threads I had a quick flashback to a conversation with one of my more senior bosses yesteday.

 

I have been harping on about having an appraisal as i have recently spent a short time working under another manager, senior to me by a single promotion. I got to be honest that he is called thrush for a reason, (please insert the punchline). I am master of my own destiny now, and away from him. We discussed the fact that he is trying to offload a number of individuals that are crap workers and just don't perform for him. Included in this are a couple of old hands and a new starter. I also have a new starter that has worked for him before and he has labled 'Crap'. I told my boss that I would have them as i have never had a problem with any of them and i believe, (with certain foreman of course) that I get the best out of them. My rival has labled me as being weak and too soft to give them the **** they deserve to motivate them, and that I must let them get away with murder.

 

The similie my boss gave was with the Saints team currently. He is a die hard fan of west Ham but, being the crafty old bastard that he is, he knows his staff inside and out. Anyway I digress. He pointed out that, instead of me getting defensive, he understands that we all have different management styles, some that work, some that don't.

 

Here is the crux. Rather that AP signing players that are really worth a fortune, that excell and are the best, don't you think that this is all down to his ability to not only identify where we are lacking, but individuals that will not only fit into the team, but individuals that he believes he could get the best out of? Also, building a team should also be about the team and not individuals. It should be about taking the time to integrate the people together and motivate them to success, together. Some do it by fear, some by intimidation, some by sheer bloody mindedness. If we were in the trenches, men would follow me over the top through sheer force of will and the fact that they would follow me anywhere.

 

So, Alan Pardew. When he looked at the team, the club, the crap we were in and the up hill struggle he stopped, thought, 'I know what to do and who I want'. And lets be honest. You go up to a player and say, 'Hey, do you want to play for a team that will probably get relegated, again, with no hope of going any where, and you will spend a season getting older and not progressing, but you'll get a few quid' and they say, 'Yeh, ok. I'll give it a go. But do you think we'll get relegated then.'

'No ****ing way!' Also, lets be honest. Kelvin and Adam should have buggered off somewhere else, but were confinced to stay. And somewhere in my mind there is a little South African born midfield player sat in orange, fed up with saying 'Give us a game boss', thinking to himself, 'I wish I was back there.'

And there are those that he has inherited and he has thought, 'No, not my sort of player, wrong mentality. I have been watching you and you could have done better in the past, but you didn't. You either shape up, or ship out. And don't let the door hit you on the arse when you leave.'

 

And lets not forget the man who looked at a dead duck and thought, 'Hey, that thing aint dead yet. I could give that some help, I know a man who could give that the kiss of life, because under them feathers is a race horse.' But this is about Pards.

 

So, my message is that things are going well at the moment and long may they continue. but things do go sour at times. we have a team that is performing, for both Him, Us and the club. They may not perform for someone else.

 

There you go, discuss in a cogent, well thought out manner, using rational agument and parliamentary procedure.

 

Not sure if it's entirely about 'man management' but judging by the above it's certainly not about coherent thought and persuasive arguement. Rarely have I seen such mangled syntax.

 

TBF I did LOL at the dead duck/feathers/race horse analogy.

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Not sure if it's entirely about 'man management' but judging by the above it's certainly not about coherent thought and persuasive arguement. Rarely have I seen such mangled syntax.

 

TBF I did LOL at the dead duck/feathers/race horse analogy.

 

I only got as far as 'I got to be honest" and wandered off into wondering what exactly he got to be honest.

 

I got a bar of chocolate for being honest once,for admitting to smoking in the woods if I remember rightly.

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Agree with Wes's comment about leaders on the pitch, the parallel with business remains, a poor leader surrounds himself with weak personalities to avoid anyone "standing up to them". Some of this is attributed to fear of being found to be inadequate in your work (and elsewhere probably).

 

Can we really be surprised that a "Dictatorial egotist" builds an organisation (or Saints) with no leaders...

 

Also one other often forgotten point. Bad managers talk about leadership, or about being a leader. Bulls**t, a TRUE Leader doesn't Lead, he creates "Followership", he (or she of course) inspires trust and focused independence in those around them to get up and keep going on their own motivation, not because they are playing the party game of follow the leader.

 

Now, let's go back to why Claus was Captain or why someone could imagine Gray or Wigley would inspire "Followership"

 

This is THE single biggest and most positive change, having people in charge who understand people instead of showing them they are always right.

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Agree with Wes's comment about leaders on the pitch, the parallel with business remains, a poor leader surrounds himself with weak personalities to avoid anyone "standing up to them". Some of this is attributed to fear of being found to be inadequate in your work (and elsewhere probably).

 

Can we really be surprised that a "Dictatorial egotist" builds an organisation (or Saints) with no leaders...

 

Also one other often forgotten point. Bad managers talk about leadership, or about being a leader. Bulls**t, a TRUE Leader doesn't Lead, he creates "Followership", he (or she of course) inspires trust and focused independence in those around them to get up and keep going on their own motivation, not because they are playing the party game of follow the leader.

 

Now, let's go back to why Claus was Captain or why someone could imagine Gray or Wigley would inspire "Followership"

 

This is THE single biggest and most positive change, having people in charge who understand people instead of showing them they are always right.

 

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/oct/21/gareth-southgate-middlesbrough-sacked-fans

 

Decent piece in the Grauniad yesterday saying much the same about Gareth Southgate, (sorry can't do posh links)

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A lot to do with morale as well. just the lifting of the burden of the dire financial situation will have had an impact, together with teh optimism that MLs purchase will have had. There was still the psychologcal barrier of the -10 points combined with a lack of a proper pre-seaseon that for me meant stuttering results at teh start of teh season - 10 games in and things got better and we have teh makings of a good L1 side. The big test will come Saturday when we will see how we can kep our heads and shape againts a well drilled MK Dons.

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It starts with respect and that is earnt. The players know who Pardew is and where he's come from...he had earnt respect in the industry before he came to Saints. He had not come from the backroom (e.g. Wigley etc), so did not have that cross to bear.

 

The next thing is that AP has switched the side around such that there is a bias of HIS players in the team - it is the classic managerial ploy to bring in your own players because these guys will not be tainted with old principles, especially if those old ways failed. If the new guys are for you, the best of what's left of the old guys will also be on your side.

 

Lastly, it is essential that the Manager has the support of his superior. If there is a hint of being undermined, then the whole respect system comes tumbling down. I feel certain that AP has the full support of Nicola and Markus. Everything in the manner in which the club is now run tells me the managerial set-up is far, far more healthy than in the previous regime.

 

(PS: Good OP - good discussion - lol at the cross-over attempt to religion again!).

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/oct/21/gareth-southgate-middlesbrough-sacked-fans

 

Decent piece in the Grauniad yesterday saying much the same about Gareth Southgate, (sorry can't do posh links)

 

Wow, there we go then, case proven :o

 

I would also be willing to bet a pint that Southgate doesn't understand what he did wrong. (We know Lowe didn't when he insisted on staying on in admin to help!)

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Wow, there we go then, case proven :o

 

I would also be willing to bet a pint that Southgate doesn't understand what he did wrong. (We know Lowe didn't when he insisted on staying on in admin to help!)

 

I would totally disagree. GS will be thinking 'How on earth did I last that long?' - If the chairman hadn't been his buddy he'd have gone ages ago.

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Wow, there we go then, case proven :o

 

I would also be willing to bet a pint that Southgate doesn't understand what he did wrong. (We know Lowe didn't when he insisted on staying on in admin to help!)

 

Southgate and Lowe shouldn't really be compared on the same page. Whilst Lowe was an exceptionally toxic personality, who couldn't tolerate any other leadership but his own, and loved sycophancy (Andrew Cowan) Southgate merely lacks charisma/personality. A football manager these days is the clubs face to the supporters. He must come over as a leader and not merely a manager. Southgate may well have listed, sorted and controlled things from his office as a manager, but he couldn't make the public believe that he lead anything, and certainly not them into a brighter and more exciting future.

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No offence. Maybe I've misinterpreted what you wrote and I hope you saw the smilie which was intended to mean that my comment was light-hearted. When I read your post I was just struck by how comfortable you were talking in glowing terms - about yourself.

 

As I said perhaps I misread it.

 

 

Thanks for that. No this was the comment from the Boss who is trying to keep me on side at the moment because he ****ed up sticking me with the other feller and I wasn't a happy bunny.

 

But pay of no mind.

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After going through a few threads I had a quick flashback to a conversation with one of my more senior bosses yesteday.

 

I have been harping on about having an appraisal as i have recently spent a short time working under another manager, senior to me by a single promotion. I got to be honest that he is called thrush for a reason, (please insert the punchline). I am master of my own destiny now, and away from him. We discussed the fact that he is trying to offload a number of individuals that are crap workers and just don't perform for him. Included in this are a couple of old hands and a new starter. I also have a new starter that has worked for him before and he has labled 'Crap'. I told my boss that I would have them as i have never had a problem with any of them and i believe, (with certain foreman of course) that I get the best out of them. My rival has labled me as being weak and too soft to give them the **** they deserve to motivate them, and that I must let them get away with murder.

 

The similie my boss gave was with the Saints team currently. He is a die hard fan of west Ham but, being the crafty old bastard that he is, he knows his staff inside and out. Anyway I digress. He pointed out that, instead of me getting defensive, he understands that we all have different management styles, some that work, some that don't.

 

Here is the crux. Rather that AP signing players that are really worth a fortune, that excell and are the best, don't you think that this is all down to his ability to not only identify where we are lacking, but individuals that will not only fit into the team, but individuals that he believes he could get the best out of? Also, building a team should also be about the team and not individuals. It should be about taking the time to integrate the people together and motivate them to success, together. Some do it by fear, some by intimidation, some by sheer bloody mindedness. If we were in the trenches, men would follow me over the top through sheer force of will and the fact that they would follow me anywhere.

 

So, Alan Pardew. When he looked at the team, the club, the crap we were in and the up hill struggle he stopped, thought, 'I know what to do and who I want'. And lets be honest. You go up to a player and say, 'Hey, do you want to play for a team that will probably get relegated, again, with no hope of going any where, and you will spend a season getting older and not progressing, but you'll get a few quid' and they say, 'Yeh, ok. I'll give it a go. But do you think we'll get relegated then.'

'No ****ing way!' Also, lets be honest. Kelvin and Adam should have buggered off somewhere else, but were confinced to stay. And somewhere in my mind there is a little South African born midfield player sat in orange, fed up with saying 'Give us a game boss', thinking to himself, 'I wish I was back there.'

And there are those that he has inherited and he has thought, 'No, not my sort of player, wrong mentality. I have been watching you and you could have done better in the past, but you didn't. You either shape up, or ship out. And don't let the door hit you on the arse when you leave.'

 

And lets not forget the man who looked at a dead duck and thought, 'Hey, that thing aint dead yet. I could give that some help, I know a man who could give that the kiss of life, because under them feathers is a race horse.' But this is about Pards.

 

So, my message is that things are going well at the moment and long may they continue. but things do go sour at times. we have a team that is performing, for both Him, Us and the club. They may not perform for someone else.

 

There you go, discuss in a cogent, well thought out manner, using rational agument and parliamentary procedure.

 

Would have been nice if you had started in this way !

In essence, I think you are saying that a good football manager should have top leadership skills, irrespective of his own personal management style ! You consider that Pardew has this attribute !

If I understand you correctly, then I agree ! :)

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