alpine_saint Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I have read in a couple of places that Orient had done their homework on us and knew exactly where to hit us last week, and as a result we dropped 2 points. I would like to know, from the regular watchers of APs Saints this season (as opposed to only the two early games that I saw), if there is any observable variation in play in the first half, from match-to-match, that correlates to playing different teams with different systems and approaches ? I stress the first half, since the 4-5-1 to 4-4-2 in the second half discussion has been done to death in other places. We should go into a match ready to play the right system for that team. In essence, are we doing OUR homework on the opposition and thus preparing for the match accordingly ? For me, the suspicion over the Burley and Poortvillet eras was that we adopted a system and stuck to it, whomever we were playing, and thus became very predictable and easy to play against, with little ability to adapt to circumstances. Is this true of now ? We will see a slump in form over the next few weeks as teams find us out ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustapha Fag Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 hang on, Orient scored a decent header and a flukey own goal, with two shots on target over 90 mins, we had a total of 17 shots of which 9 were on target. hardly seems that Orient knew how to play against us and run us off the park does it worrying for the sake of it im thinking, we are on a run, if we lose the next 3/4 games then find problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 From what I read, 'Orient were fortunate to be 2 up so I'm not sure that we lost 2 points as the result of being out-thought. Would be interested to see where you read that - twice. I think a team only needs to worry about adopting systems to match the opposition if it can't control the game playing its "normal" way. Hence a team may adapt formation more away from home and against the stronger teams in the division. But I would say given the quality of our squad we will go into the majority of games attempting to make the opposition change to adapt to us. I'm sure we will adopt specific defending drills from set pieces and that specific players will get special treatment. Perhaps a pacey winger might force us to be more conservative going forward. But generally I think we will find our system and stick to it. To answer your question specifically, from the games I've seen we haven't changed formation noticeably - other than the change to 4-4-2 that you mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 November, 2009 Author Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I've read in a couple of places that Orients tactic was to hit us fast with balls into the box, and that we struggled with this and that both goals came like this. Is this true, or isnt it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever a red and white Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 tbh as much as i love pardew having plan a and b, it is very predictable what we are going to do and what players are going to come on, so in that sense it is easier to prepare for. Having said that you can't have hundreds of formations and tatics becasue it won't help the team, its just a case or relying on the quality of the players to overcome the teams in front of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fareham saint phil Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 Im sure teams will do their homework against us any professional outfit would, as a successful team we have to get used to it now, same for mk dons they tried to counter our formation, style etc but were blown away second half, it makes a change for teams to be fearing us. If orient did then in truth they couldn't counter the pace in the second half. There first goal their forward seemed to want it more and the second, well 9 times out of 10 it goes somewhere else. We were much the better and stronger team and any other day, with better finishing, we would have walked the game in this game i dont think orient had any better plan just for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I have read in a couple of places that Orient had done their homework on us and knew exactly where to hit us last week, and as a result we dropped 2 points. Not sure that is true as we dominated Leyton Orient but failed to score more goals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St_Tel49 Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 tbh as much as i love pardew having plan a and b, it is very predictable what we are going to do and what players are going to come on, so in that sense it is easier to prepare for. Having said that you can't have hundreds of formations and tatics becasue it won't help the team, its just a case or relying on the quality of the players to overcome the teams in front of us There is the nub of it - tactics are far from irrelevant but they are not more important than the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I've read in a couple of places that Orients tactic was to hit us fast with balls into the box, and that we struggled with this and that both goals came like this. Is this true, or isnt it ? I don't know but that's hardly a formation versus formation issue is it? That's a tactic that any formation might adopt. I think if your original question had any merit (not your question but the things that you say you read), then they would have found a formation that allowed them to score freely against us or stifled us completely. But again from what I read we created lots of chances (they didn't stifle us) and one of their goals was scored off the thigh of our centre back under no real pressure (individual error). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davej27 Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I did not see many fast balls into the box that put us under to much pressure, we got caught cold for the first and the second was unfortunate, Its good to see we have the spirit and ability to fight back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMike Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 Orient were lucky with both goals imo. On another day we would have had 4+ if it wasnt for their keeper who was MOM in their 4-0 defeat the week before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INFLUENCED.COM Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 (edited) Im sure teams will do their homework against us any professional outfit would Agree, as no doubt we do our opposition but as said above we were not stifled more unfortunate, imo we did not have to change anything going into the game but must be able to change things if evident 'its' not working, other than bring on some fresh legs in WGS style as we fought back from 2-0, this AP seems to be doing. Edited 3 November, 2009 by INFLUENCED.COM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vince Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I've read in a couple of places that Orients tactic was to hit us fast with balls into the box, and that we struggled with this and that both goals came like this. Is this true, or isnt it ? I think the original question is fair enough - have we done our homework - as I think one of the posts apline refers too was about Orient deliberately putting the ball long into a corner then hanging it across goal due to the low sun setting behind the stand we were facing. In that case, they probably do that every home game and we probably should have been aware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 Is it really that shocking that a home team scored a good goal against us? Normally, given the chances we created, the Orient game would have been a comfortable away win. Unfortunately football doesn't always go that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I think the original question is fair enough - have we done our homework - as I think one of the posts apline refers too was about Orient deliberately putting the ball long into a corner then hanging it across goal due to the low sun setting behind the stand we were facing. In that case, they probably do that every home game and we probably should have been aware of it. 4 wins and a draw... have we done our homework?? It is one thing being aware of it and another dealing with it. We were a split second away from clearing the cross. You crazy mo fo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatlesaint Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 Opposition teams can have all the plans and tactics they like in place to "hit us where it hurts" but if the players of those teams aren't as good as ours then its not going to work too often. Its all well and good telling the centre half "Ok when we get a corner, you go up for it, out jump Lambert who will be marking you and we are one up" Teams know how Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal play, but not too many beat them. Now obviously I am not comparing us to them but most people in football seem to agree we are one of the better teams in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 worrying for the sake of it im thinking, we are on a run, if we lose the next 3/4 games then find problems I don't mind losing the first 3/4 of games any more. I know that we'll still run out winners after the full 94 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 hang on, Orient scored a decent header and a flukey own goal, with two shots on target over 90 mins, we had a total of 17 shots of which 9 were on target. hardly seems that Orient knew how to play against us and run us off the park does it worrying for the sake of it im thinking, we are on a run, if we lose the next 3 to 4 games then find problems agree, fully answers op. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slickmick Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 If they were doing their homework on us, then why did they allow Lambert 2 goals ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Will Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 (edited) What a ludicrous, attention seeking thread. 6 wins and a draw in a row, but we're predictable. Came from 2-0 down to get a well earnt draw away from home. Let's autopsy everything cuz we didn't win. Let's wonder if we are predictable like under Burley and Poortvliet. Let's question if Pardew is doing his job properly, even though it's been reported on here that during training Pardew was taking the players through how the team we were due to play would try to play against us. Rollyeye thing. I wonder if this poster will ever start a thread with any positivity! Edited 3 November, 2009 by St Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 TBH If those two crosses came in any other week I doubt either would end up in the back of the net. The header was unbelievable but 99 times out of 100, it either goes wide, into KD's arms or Trotman gets there first. The second was a flukey skip off the deck which caused it to hit Trotman's knee and fly up into the net. Again most of the time (although I won't say 99/100 this time) Trotman deals with the cross or if it does ricochet off him, from that distance, it is an easy save by KD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 November, 2009 Author Share Posted 3 November, 2009 (edited) What a ludicrous, attention seeking thread. 6 wins and a draw in a row, but we're predictable. Came from 2-0 down to get a well earnt draw away from home. Let's autopsy everything cuz we didn't win. Let's wonder if we are predictable like under Burley and Poortvliet. Let's question if Pardew is doing his job properly, even though it's been reported on here that during training Pardew was taking the players through how the team we were due to play would try to play against us. Rollyeye thing. I wonder if this poster will ever start a thread with any positivity! Oh dear. The intolerant foot-stamping is back.... I will start threads about issues I want to discuss, not your obsessional positivity-for-the-sake-of-it. How DARE I suggest Orient found a chink in our armour.... Edited 3 November, 2009 by alpine_saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonManager Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 TBH If those two crosses came in any other week I doubt either would end up in the back of the net. The header was unbelievable but 99 times out of 100, it either goes wide, into KD's arms or Trotman gets there first. The second was a flukey skip off the deck which caused it to hit Trotman's knee and fly up into the net. Again most of the time (although I won't say 99/100 this time) Trotman deals with the cross or if it does ricochet off him, from that distance, it is an easy save by KD. I'd say that if KD had been (literally) on his toes he would have comfortably saved the first one. He takes a couple of short steps and loses all spring leaving him flatfooted. As for the second he had, IMO, ample time to come out and collect the cross in front of NT. Don't get me wrong, I rate him, but I do feel he could be more commanding with crosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 Alpine -others have made very fair points about why this is a strange one to start, maybe answer those rather than the personal ones? Of course teams prepare but we are hardly looking like its a problem at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 November, 2009 Author Share Posted 3 November, 2009 Alpine -others have made very fair points about why this is a strange one to start, maybe answer those rather than the personal ones? Of course teams prepare but we are hardly looking like its a problem at the moment. I asked the question if there is a possible predictability about our play emerging that an opposition team could counter, thats all. The next few games will prove or disprove it. I felt it was something worth considering, and asked if anyone had noticed a first-half pattern emerging. Why oh why is that so controversial ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I'd say that if KD had been (literally) on his toes he would have comfortably saved the first one. He takes a couple of short steps and loses all spring leaving him flatfooted. As for the second he had, IMO, ample time to come out and collect the cross in front of NT. Don't get me wrong, I rate him, but I do feel he could be more commanding with crosses. I think that is one chink in our defensive armour. Last season the defence wasn't protecting him so much and he was stopping the shots which were coming in more directly rather than the oppo having to get by the defence down the wing to put in the cross to feed the attackers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 you know you are everyone favorite pantomime villain and its that time of year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I've read in a couple of places that Orients tactic was to hit us fast with balls into the box, and that we struggled with this and that both goals came like this. Is this true, or isnt it ? Speaking to a few Orient fans after the games, their main gameplan is to hit teams on the break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintDonkey Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 Orient did their homework only in the sense that they followed the tactic "pack your box with defenders and the opposition will find it tricky to score". I'm not sure how much homework that took! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 How DARE I suggest Orient found a chink in our armour.... But they didn't, which is the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 to answer your point; I don't think there is a problem. I haven't seen the away games in this run but in the MK game, for example, there was nothing in their game that looked like they were prepared/able to cope with us. Their fans report, which someone put on here, described them as rabbits in the headlights at the start. We were totally on top, very one-sided for the first 1/4 of the game. This isn't a sudden change of form that people are going to catch onto - we have been playing very well for weeks now. The Bristol game was a very good performance and our style was apparent. At the moment can't see this is an issue at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Will Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 (edited) Because it's the way you do it. You're trying to find faults in the management, you're accusing Pardew of not doing his job properly. All because we got a draw. If we had won against Orient, you wouldn't have started this thread. Have you never heard the expression, "you can't win them all"? You can say what you like about me, but I'm not the only person who thinks you're being ridiculous with this thread. That is clear from the responses so far. You could have started a thread about how well we did to get back from 2 goals down. You could have started a thread about how well Lambert is doing. But you didn't. Why do you refuse to discuss the good things that are going on at our club? FWIW, this thread would have been criticised if it'd been written by anyone. But it's no surprise you wrote it Alpine. Edited 3 November, 2009 by St Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 Our chink, dare I say, is the RB position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I asked the question if there is a possible predictability about our play emerging that an opposition team could counter, thats all. The next few games will prove or disprove it. I felt it was something worth considering, and asked if anyone had noticed a first-half pattern emerging. Why oh why is that so controversial ??? Not controversial, just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 Our chink, dare I say, is the RB position. Now you mention it, didn't their second come about from the a corner on our left wing where both James AND Antonio came across? I remember saying when it was taken that it was a f*cking stupid thing to do, because there was nobody across on the right hand side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I asked the question if there is a possible predictability about our play emerging that an opposition team could counter, thats all. The next few games will prove or disprove it. I felt it was something worth considering, and asked if anyone had noticed a first-half pattern emerging. Why oh why is that so controversial ??? I wouldn't say that's particularly controversial at all. With the players we have at our disposal, I would probably suggest that we should be looking to impose our own game on the opposition rather than tailor our tactics to spoil theirs, but obviously with a Plan B if things don't go well for the first hour or so. It's a bit of an odd situation because we've actually played pretty well in the last two games but have found ourselves behind at that stage in both games (slightly concerning that opposing teams seem to be scoring with their only attempts on goal - we've only kept two clean sheets in the league this season) so there would still be an argument to keep things as they were, but the more direct approach with two up top just puts that added bit of pressure on the opposition. I'm not convinced we'd be able to keep that sort of tempo going for a whole game though, which is probably why Pardew is still persisting with the 4-5-1/4-3-3 with Connolly and Antonio coming on with fresh legs when the opposition are getting tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 November, 2009 Author Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I wouldn't say that's particularly controversial at all. With the players we have at our disposal, I would probably suggest that we should be looking to impose our own game on the opposition rather than tailor our tactics to spoil theirs, but obviously with a Plan B if things don't go well for the first hour or so. It's a bit of an odd situation because we've actually played pretty well in the last two games but have found ourselves behind at that stage in both games (slightly concerning that opposing teams seem to be scoring with their only attempts on goal - we've only kept two clean sheets in the league this season) so there would still be an argument to keep things as they were, but the more direct approach with two up top just puts that added bit of pressure on the opposition. I'm not convinced we'd be able to keep that sort of tempo going for a whole game though, which is probably why Pardew is still persisting with the 4-5-1/4-3-3 with Connolly and Antonio coming on with fresh legs when the opposition are getting tired. The problem I have with that is that Orient got all their men behind the ball when we changed formation with the subs in the second half, except for the odd attempt to hit us on the break, and came within a couple of minutes of it working.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintDonkey Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 Our chink, dare I say, is the RB position. Funny that Orient's goal came from a cross from our left Their second was from our right but it just a fluke - the cross wasn't going anywhere dangerous before Trotman got a foot on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Will Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 The problem I have with that is that Orient got all their men behind the ball when we changed formation with the subs in the second half, except for the odd attempt to hit us on the break, and came within a couple of minutes of it working.... And we came within 1 unlucky own goal from winning the game!!! Glass half empty or what! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 November, 2009 Author Share Posted 3 November, 2009 And we came within 1 unlucky own goal from winning the game!!! Glass half empty or what! I really cannot be bothered with this b*llsh*t, St. Will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 The problem I have with that is that Orient got all their men behind the ball when we changed formation with the subs in the second half, except for the odd attempt to hit us on the break, and came within a couple of minutes of it working.... Are you suggesting that getting men behind the ball is a tactic that they DON'T regularly use when they go a couple of goals up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 we are not the best team in the world. but we are probably in the top 3 teams at least in this division. we are playing attractive attacking football we are scoring lots of goals we are on an unbeaten run we have a manager who talks sense we never hear from the owner we are debt free we are getting bigger crowds than premiership clubs ENJOY IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 The problem I have with that is that Orient got all their men behind the ball when we changed formation with the subs in the second half, except for the odd attempt to hit us on the break, and came within a couple of minutes of it working.... It'll happen occasionally, we're not going to be able to win every single game. Obviously being out of the UK, you probably can't get the extended BBC highlights for the game but I strongly recommend you trying to get hold of them for Saturday's game if you can, if only to see Lallana's two misses - the first one, he was practically level with the keeper but still put it into his arms Make no mistake, we absolutely battered them for 88 of the 90 minutes on Saturday and on another day with a combination of a bit of luck and a bit more composure in front of goal, we'd have scored 5 or 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonManager Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 And we came within 1 unlucky own goal from winning the game!!! Glass half empty or what! If Connolly had arrived a split second earlier to get the rebound off the keeper in the last 10 seconds, we would have won 3-2. I had a great view of that and the toe of his boot was sooooo close to the ball before the keeper/defender claimed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 (and as I explained in earlier post with MK example - teams are not coping with us or better prepared) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 November, 2009 Author Share Posted 3 November, 2009 Are you suggesting that getting men behind the ball is a tactic that they DON'T regularly use when they go a couple of goals up? No, I am saying we almost ran out of time breaking them down, whatever our perceived quality is. I am saying that they almost got their game plan perfect, and I am hoping none of our upcoming opposition take a leaf out of their book. I sense you are mocking me. Whatever.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 other may follow this "cross ball into defenders knee and over keeper" game plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 November, 2009 Author Share Posted 3 November, 2009 other may follow this "cross ball into defenders knee and over keeper" game plan. FFS, dont you get it ? We've had trouble dealing with crosses FOREVER. This complete intolerance on here towards posts that are anything but gushing "positivity" is pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Will Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 I really cannot be bothered with this b*llsh*t, St. Will. Can't be bothered with thinking rationally...yeah I can see that. We scored 2 goals, one of their goals was an own goal. So we scored more than they did. It was clear from the stats we had enough chances to win 3 games. So your point is, simply, ridiculous! There is nothing to suggest we have become predictable, except for the scoreline. You cannot win them all! Why can't you accept you haven't made a good point instead of thinking we're out to get you?! I'm criticising your post, not you. Don't take things so personally and accept when you're wrong, which you very much are, for even suggesting we might be predictable. YOU.....ARE.....WRONG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 3 November, 2009 Share Posted 3 November, 2009 FFS, dont you get it ? We've had trouble dealing with crosses FOREVER. This complete intolerance on here towards posts that are anything but gushing "positivity" is pathetic. not since we signed Trottman and Jaidi. If teams preparation is thinking crosses is our weakness they aren't preparing well! If they we beating us for speed down the middle maybe. Alps - there is nothing for you to base this concern on, accept the reassurance from everyone who has posted on this thread and relax! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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