England and penalties. Here we go again.

[Dark Munster]

F**king unbelievable. Just when I thought England has a manager that could take us out of the dark ages, it turns out he is in the Bobby Robson (R.I.P.)-Glenn Hoddle-Sven-Göran Eriksson school of "why bother practising penalties?"

 

 

That's right Capello, it's far too early to practise. There are a whopping 3 weeks before the tournament starts. Those idiot Germans have been practising since they were in their nappies. What good has it done them? Ok, they haven't lost a penalty shoot out since the time of the dinosaurs, and England have lost all but one in that time (the reason for getting knocked out of tournaments umpteen times).....but that's just bad luck, penalty shootouts are a lottery, right?

 

:mad:

 

 

http://tinyurl.com/2fd5r37

 

 

However, for someone as methodical as the England coach, it comes as a surprise to discover there have been no penalties practised.

At this stage, he simply does not see the point.

"It is too early to practise penalties," he reflected.

"In any case, you could prepare for penalties and practise every day in training. But in a match it is different.

"Shooting to win is not the same as shooting in training.

"In training, the keeper is not very big. When you need to score to win, the keeper is really big and the goal is very small."

[Thedelldays]

if a pro player needs practice of kicking a ball from 12 yards into the goal..then we are doomed..

 

what gets to them is the pressure..something you cant replicate

[JackFrost]

if a pro player needs practice of kicking a ball from 12 yards into the goal..then we are doomed..

 

what gets to them is the pressure..something you cant replicate

 

You don't get good at penalties by accident.

 

The Germans are good at penalties because they practise them regularly from a very young age in the youth academies, the art of blasting a football accurately into one of 4 corners of the net/most unlikely place a keeper can save it has been mastered by them. Being good at penalties on the big stage is a skill, it aint down to luck

 

If you practise something enough you will master it, and eventually you will be able to replicate it consistently 'on the big stage' even when overcome by nerves.

 

In my humble opinion the notion that "penalties can't be practised because it's a whole new ball game in the big tournament" is complete ********.

[Dark Munster]

if a pro player needs practice of kicking a ball from 12 yards into the goal..then we are doomed..

 

what gets to them is the pressure..something you cant replicate

Let's suppose England and Germany meet in the knockout stage, and it goes to penalties. And suppose someone offers you £1 million if you correctly guess the outcome.

 

Who would you choose?

 

More generally, suppose team A and team B meet in the knockout stage, and it goes to penalties. Team A has been practising penalties for 2 years, team B hasn't practised at all. And suppose someone offers you £1 million if you correctly guess the outcome.

 

Who would you choose, team A or team B?

[Dark Munster]

You don't get good at penalties by accident.

 

The Germans are good at penalties because they practise them regularly from a very young age in the youth academies, the art of blasting a football accurately into one of 4 corners of the net/most unlikely place a keeper can save it has been mastered by them. Being good at penalties on the big stage is a skill, it aint down to luck

 

If you practise something enough you will master it, and eventually you will be able to replicate it consistently 'on the big stage' even when overcome by nerves.

 

In my humble opinion the notion that "penalties can't be practised because it's a whole new ball game in the big tournament" is complete ********.

Indeed. England and Germany have proven that quite conclusively (in opposite ways).

[BLINK]

this is odd, Stuart pearce was on the bbc saying that england under 21's have practiced pens at every training session for the last 2 years, I would imagine that the seniors would do the same. Maybe its just Capello trying to fool a few people.........

[RonManager]

One more reason why Rickie Lambert should be going. All we need is a slight rule change so that he could take all our penalties.

[aintforever]

if a pro player needs practice of kicking a ball from 12 yards into the goal..then we are doomed..

 

what gets to them is the pressure..something you cant replicate

 

That's nonsense, just like a golfer practices his putting, they should practice them religiously every day until taking the perfect penalty becomes second nature meaning nerves have less effect when under pressure.

[Dark Munster]

this is odd, Stuart pearce was on the bbc saying that england under 21's have practiced pens at every training session for the last 2 years, I would imagine that the seniors would do the same. Maybe its just Capello trying to fool a few people.........

 

I was thinking (and hoping!) the same thing. Pearce has learned the lesson the hard way, and now has seen the light. On the other hand, Capello appears to be very single-minded, and may be ignoring Pearce. If so, our only hope is that Pearce could try to have some penalty practise behind Capello's back.

[Dark Munster]

That's nonsense, just like a golfer practices his putting, they should practice them religiously every day until taking the perfect penalty becomes second nature meaning nerves have less effect when under pressure.

Robson, Hoddle, Eriksson and Capello all disagree. Which means England have had a succession of stupid managers. The only England manager in recent times who seemed to have partially prepared for taking penalties was Venables (and I hate saying that, because he was the biggest twat of the lot, otherwise). He actually won one shootout (against Spain), and matched Germany in a shootout on the first 5. Unfortunately he didn't consider the possibility of needing more than 5 players to take penalties.

[saint_stevo]

Surely they have to be practised. Have to be. Sod the 'cant duplicate the pressure' balls, if your prepared fully and confident, then you will be less pressured as you know you can do it!

 

A bit like doing a mock exam, gets you used to the type of situation and the way it pans out, but obviously not the same as on the day.

 

Can do no harm at all to practise, and the WHOLE team should be doing it, not just the 5 that are willing to put themselves forward

[AndyNorthernSaints]

They should have a penalty shoot out against Mexico tonight to practice in front of a big crowd.

[aintforever]

They should have a penalty shoot out against Mexico tonight to practice in front of a big crowd.

 

I disagree, that was one of Woodward's ideas, sound in theory but all you are doing is giving every opposition World Cup keeper a chance to study the technique of our best penalty takers.

 

I would follow Mat Le Tiss's (who also used to practice alot) example and create pressure by paying the keepers for every save they make in training.

[The9]

I disagree, that was one of Woodward's ideas, sound in theory but all you are doing is giving every opposition World Cup keeper a chance to study the technique of our best penalty takers.

 

Well that's simple enough, stage the shootout and tell the takers all to miss.

 

Seriously, do you think there won't already be hours of footage of known penalty takers out there ? It's not 1978. The unknown penalty takers will take care of themselves... Batty, Southgate, Waddle...

[aintforever]

Well that's simple enough, stage the shootout and tell the takers all to miss.

 

Seriously, do you think there won't already be hours of footage of known penalty takers out there ? It's not 1978. The unknown penalty takers will take care of themselves... Batty, Southgate, Waddle...

 

Maybe, I still think it would help the opposition keeper if they see how players like Ferdinand, Walcott etc take their kicks, not all the England players take penalties for their clubs.

 

Also if England do a mock shoot out against Mexico tonight and completely **** it up it's just going to add to the doubts/pressure.

[saint_stevo]

People with the initials DB tend to miss important penalties.....

 

David Batty, David Beckham (erhm blazed over v ? in normal time and blamed the spot....) Di Biagi

[AndyNorthernSaints]

I disagree, that was one of Woodward's ideas, sound in theory but all you are doing is giving every opposition World Cup keeper a chance to study the technique of our best penalty takers.

 

I would follow Mat Le Tiss's (who also used to practice alot) example and create pressure by paying the keepers for every save they make in training.

 

Apparently Leon Best was brilliant at penalties in training for Saints prior to the semi final play off defeat against Derby but when it came to the real thing he hit his pen wide.

[JackFrost]

I remember at the last world cup it was said the Germans have hours and hours of footage of all the likely penalty takers in the world cup, which Kahn and Lehmann were given to study.

[Soggy Bottom]

I remember at the last world cup it was said the Germans have hours and hours of footage of all the likely penalty takers in the world cup, which Kahn and Lehmann were given to study.

 

 

England keepers had the same, I remember an interview with James.

[aintforever]

I remember at the last world cup it was said the Germans have hours and hours of footage of all the likely penalty takers in the world cup, which Kahn and Lehmann were given to study.

 

So goalkeepers studying technique does make a difference. Some players blast it, other wait for the keeper to move etc. That's why having a mock shoot out against Mexico is a dumb idea.

[Dark Munster]

Apparently Leon Best was brilliant at penalties in training for Saints prior to the semi final play off defeat against Derby but when it came to the real thing he hit his pen wide.

 

Practise doesn't guarantee success, but it improves the odds.

[Dark Munster]

I disagree, that was one of Woodward's ideas, sound in theory but all you are doing is giving every opposition World Cup keeper a chance to study the technique of our best penalty takers.

 

I would follow Mat Le Tiss's (who also used to practice alot) example and create pressure by paying the keepers for every save they make in training.

 

Why can't England managers understand this? One of the best penalty takers of all time, but he still felt it important to practise.

 

A lot.

 

July-1990: vs. West Germany, World Cup, Semi-Final

June-1996: vs. Germany, Euro 96, Semi-Final

Jun-1998: vs. Argentina, World Cup, First Knock-Out Round

Jun-2004: vs. Portugal, Euro 2004, Quarter-Final

Jul-2006: vs. Portugal, World Cup, Quarter Final

 

If it happens again this summer (especially against the Germans), I hope no-one is underneath my window when it happens, because a TV may come flying out of the window at that moment.

[SNSUN]

Short of slowing down time so Calamity James or whoever happens to be between the sticks has time to work out where the ball's going, penalties will always be a lottery no matter how much they practise.

[saints-cris]

It's ok, scientists have found a way.

 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/weird/article2337174.ece[url=http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/weird/article2337174.ece][/url]

[Dark Munster]

Short of slowing down time so Calamity James or whoever happens to be between the sticks has time to work out where the ball's going, penalties will always be a lottery no matter how much they practise.

A lottery that the Germans (who practise a lot) always win, and England (who don't practise as much) almost always loses.

 

Yep, nothing to do with practise.

 

Damn those lucky Germans!

[Johnny Shearer]

Short of slowing down time so Calamity James or whoever happens to be between the sticks has time to work out where the ball's going, penalties will always be a lottery no matter how much they practise.

 

I don't know how people can say penalties will be always be a lottery. If you practice smashing the ball into the top right/left corner for an hour, day on day. Surely you'd know come the day what you are gonna do and where you'll place it with the right technique into the top corner with little or remote chance of the keeper saving it surely?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Presumably those who don't think England should practice would also tell Tiger Woods not to bother practicing holing out from 5 feet?

 

Sticking with golf, Gary Player: "the more I practice the luckier I get"

[knellster]

It would be interesting to know whether Capello bothers practising corners or free kicks for the same reason. If we're a goal down in injury time and get a free kick on the edge of the box there's almost as much pressure on the player taking it as there would be in a penalty shoot out. Becks clearly thought that practising them was worthwhile and we saw the results against Greece at OT.

 

Sadly, of far more interest to me in this thread has been the almost constant correct use of "practise" rather than "practice". I know it's sad that I should be so bothered about it but thanks to all the posters for making a sad old grammar anorak happy.

[JustMike]

you could practice penalties until you are blue in the face but come the real occasion its all about pressure and how you deal with it

[SNSUN]

I don't know how people can say penalties will be always be a lottery. If you practice smashing the ball into the top right/left corner for an hour, day on day. Surely you'd know come the day what you are gonna do and where you'll place it with the right technique into the top corner with little or remote chance of the keeper saving it surely?

 

Still, nothing can help an act of God. Both Terry and Beckham have slipped when taking important pressure penalties, no amount of practise can account for that. I suppose practising would help with their confidence, but you never know what's going to happen. I hope we're now good enough to avoid penalty shoot outs once and for all.

[thesaint sfc]

I'm sure a bit of practise helps. A bit like colouring in really. I've practised, and now I very rarely go over the lines.

[SNSUN]

I'm sure a bit of practise helps. A bit like colouring in really. I've practised, and now I very rarely go over the lines.

 

I went over the Lines once. I was told never to return to the Memorial Stadium.

[Johnny Shearer]

Still, nothing can help an act of God. Both Terry and Beckham have slipped when taking important pressure penalties, no amount of practise can account for that. I suppose practising would help with their confidence, but you never know what's going to happen. I hope we're now good enough to avoid penalty shoot outs once and for all.

 

Yes falling over isn't down to not practising but one of those things. Also if you happen to blast into the top right corner and the keep saves, then yes its down to the keeper pulling off a great save.

 

However how do explain scruffed shots, shots which go over or wide of the post? Obviously those people didnt practise their shooting.

[Johnny Shearer]

you could practice penalties until you are blue in the face but come the real occasion its all about pressure and how you deal with it

 

I'm sure Johnny Wilkinson doesn't bother practising conversion kicks as he knows he can handle the pressure on him converting the kick................

 

Pressure is just one element of taking the penalty.

[Dark Munster]

you could practice penalties until you are blue in the face but come the real occasion its all about pressure and how you deal with it

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/worldcup2010/article-1279183/WORLD-CUP-2010-Gary-Lineker-insists-Englands-players-start-practicing-penalties-ahead-finals.html

 

I don't necessarily think we've prepared well enough in the past but I think Capello might be different,' said former England captain Lineker. 'You have to practice, absolutely you do.

 

'This argument that it's different when it really matters, well, of course it's different, but if you've hit hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of penalties, at least you've got an idea of what to do rather than go: "Oh, I've never hit a penalty before, this will be interesting".

 

 

'Really intelligent football people come up with this argument that it's different when the pressure's on. Well, yeah, but...

 

 

'It's like saying a golfer never practices a six-foot putt. Yes, it's different when it's for the Open Championship but it doesn't half help if you've actually hit a few. I just don't get the argument. There is no argument. It just doesn't make sense.

 

 

'You have to practice even more so when you're out at a World Cup because you know the chances are you'll have to take a penalty. You might be called upon, even if you're one of those who wouldn't normally take a penalty in any circumstances.

 

 

'If it's nine-all, you'll have to take one. You've got to hit loads, not just say let's all have one. I used to hit about 30 penalties every day.'

[Dark Munster]

Still, nothing can help an act of God. Both Terry and Beckham have slipped when taking important pressure penalties, no amount of practise can account for that. I suppose practising would help with their confidence, but you never know what's going to happen. I hope we're now good enough to avoid penalty shoot outs once and for all.

 

Since 1990 the following have needed penalties at some stage to win the World Cup:

 

1990 West Germany

1994 Brazil

1998 France

2006 Italy

 

The only exception was Brazil in 2002 who didn't need penalties at any stage.

 

So the odds are, no matter how good a team is, they will probably need to win at least one penalty shootout to win the WC.

 

So that's England f**ked then. :mad:

[Dark Munster]

"Le Tissier is used to England managers overlooking him after Capello ignored his plea to coach the players on how to take penalties ahead of the World Cup."

 

[revolution saint]

To add another thing into the mix Johann Cruyff used to say that it was the fittest players that were generally successful. If you've played the full 120 minutes then it stands to reason that you'll be extremely fatigued and more prone to mistakes. I think it makes sense to practise penalties but I also want the manager to be firm in choosing who will take them and in what order. None of this last minute "who looks up for it rubbish". The players should know well before the shootout or the match if they'll be needed and that might focus them in training.

 

You could also have some fun and create a good team atmosphere by having a penalty shootout at the end of every training session. There's lots we could do but to neglect it is stupid - it's the primary reason we've gone out of recent tournaments.

[Kingsbridge Saint]

you could practice penalties until you are blue in the face but come the real occasion its all about pressure and how you deal with it

 

Agreed. But why can't people grasp that practising improves the odds?

[benjii]

Short of slowing down time so Calamity James or whoever happens to be between the sticks has time to work out where the ball's going, penalties will always be a lottery no matter how much they practise.

 

Utter, utter nonsense I'm afraid.

 

If you strike a penalty firmly towards the top half of the goal in either final quarter of the goal there is no way the keeper will save it from twelve yards.

 

Top internationals should be able to do this time after time. Obviously the pressure can get to you but that is not "lottery". It is so lazy to speak of the "lottery" of penalty shout-outs. You can improve your chances. It is not a lottery.

[benjii]

To add another thing into the mix Johann Cruyff used to say that it was the fittest players that were generally successful. If you've played the full 120 minutes then it stands to reason that you'll be extremely fatigued and more prone to mistakes. I think it makes sense to practise penalties but I also want the manager to be firm in choosing who will take them and in what order. None of this last minute "who looks up for it rubbish". The players should know well before the shootout or the match if they'll be needed and that might focus them in training.

 

You could also have some fun and create a good team atmosphere by having a penalty shootout at the end of every training session. There's lots we could do but to neglect it is stupid - it's the primary reason we've gone out of recent tournaments.

 

I agree to a certain extent. You should certainly have a plan beforehand.

 

However, I would not want to stop the manager from exercising discretion in the heat of the moment if needs be. Sometimes you can see in a player's eye that they are ****ting themselves and more likely to miss.

[revolution saint]

I agree to a certain extent. You should certainly have a plan beforehand.

 

However, I would not want to stop the manager from exercising discretion in the heat of the moment if needs be. Sometimes you can see in a player's eye that they are ****ting themselves and more likely to miss.

 

I agree. The plan doesn't need to be set in stone and should be open to change.

 

On a personal note I'd also want players like self styled "Guvnor" Paul Ince named and shamed for not having the bottle for stepping up. Actually, I have a bit of respect for players who realise they can't do it when it matters - I just don't like Ince.