Long Shot Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 After seeing him score tonight v Utd with a sublime finish it begs the question what manager decided he would not make it (assume it was a manager because you can't be too sure at St Marys) and why? One that slipped through the net, for sure, and perhaps one of the the biggest fish ever to escape that Southampton net. Others on our books that got away? Kevin Phillips, Dennis Wise, Bobby Robson (going back a bit here but he was at the Dell as a youngster, I am told) but unlike MacDonald none of them made the first team before being released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Arrogance, if I remember rightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Martini Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Hint: Its the same manager that signed him for Celtic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 maybe we should send him a bill for the lost transfer revenue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tac-tics Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Yep the same manager that signed him from Motherwell. did hear that him and I think Mark Peter's did have abit of arrogance about them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Having watched him loads of times I could see at that time why we released him - his ego was as big as the massive shorts he wore and certainly wasn't as good as he believed he was. In fact apart from Brighton away and maybe 2 decent reserve games he was too small and lightweight. Remember we were in a far higher position than we are now and were constantly buying in players from all over the globe - we had around 41 squad players for the first team. If you want a better option than him look at Brian Howerd - sometimes being released gives them the kick up the arse they need. He seems to have knuckled down and moved around a bit and finally found his level so fair play to him but at that time the decision to release him was correct IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Saint Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 After seeing him score tonight v Utd with a sublime finish it begs the question what manager decided he would not make it (assume it was a manager because you can't be too sure at St Marys) and why? One that slipped through the net, for sure, and perhaps one of the the biggest fish ever to escape that Southampton net. Others on our books that got away? Kevin Phillips, Dennis Wise, Bobby Robson (going back a bit here but he was at the Dell as a youngster, I am told) but unlike MacDonald none of them made the first team before being released. Whoever it was should be complimented on their good judgement in fact. After all he has never made it and instead is stuck in the League One standard Scottish League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocco boxo Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Overated Jock but knows where the net is! Mark Paul how did we let him slip through the net? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Shot Posted 5 November, 2008 Author Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Arrogance, if I remember rightly. Right thanks Baj, I didn't know SM had a "character" defect. Begs the question though why did Strachan let him go because of that and yet, just a few years later "risked" signing him (was there a fee?) for Celtic. Has MacDonald had a Bartonesque change of character? Or perhaps he wasn't properly managed at St Marys. One of Strachan's defects was he could not "manage" awkward characters, if I remember. I still maintain he could have done a better job of Kevin Davies (who we let go for nothing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Right thanks Baj, I didn't know SM had a "character" defect. Begs the question though why did Strachan let him go because of that and yet, just a few years later "risked" signing him (was there a fee?) for Celtic. Has MacDonald had a Bartonesque change of character? Or perhaps he wasn't properly managed at St Marys. One of Strachan's defects was he could not "manage" awkward characters, if I remember. I still maintain he could have done a better job of Kevin Davies (who we let go for nothing). Strachan signed him because the previous season he was top scorer in the SPL whilst playing for Motherwell (including scoring several goals against Celtic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Right thanks Baj, I didn't know SM had a "character" defect. Begs the question though why did Strachan let him go because of that and yet, just a few years later "risked" signing him (was there a fee?) for Celtic. Has MacDonald had a Bartonesque change of character? Or perhaps he wasn't properly managed at St Marys. One of Strachan's defects was he could not "manage" awkward characters, if I remember. I still maintain he could have done a better job of Kevin Davies (who we let go for nothing). I think the issue at the time was that where we were a fairly comfortably-in-midtable Premier League side, Strachan probably felt that he could do without his attitude when his ability didn't yet match those of the first team, particularly when a proven player arguably with at least twice his ability could be (and was) bought for £3.25m. I certainly saw nothing when he was on our books to suggest that he was as good as what we already had in the first team, nor that he had the desire to improve his game so he would be at that level. It seems he has improved a fair amount, but I still don't see many English Premier League clubs linked with him. While he's scoring loads in the SPL, it's a completely different kettle of fish to the top flight in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Shot Posted 5 November, 2008 Author Share Posted 5 November, 2008 I think the issue at the time was that where we were a fairly comfortably-in-midtable Premier League side, Strachan probably felt that he could do without his attitude when his ability didn't yet match those of the first team, particularly when a proven player arguably with at least twice his ability could be (and was) bought for £3.25m. I certainly saw nothing when he was on our books to suggest that he was as good as what we already had in the first team, nor that he had the desire to improve his game so he would be at that level. It seems he has improved a fair amount, but I still don't see many English Premier League clubs linked with him. While he's scoring loads in the SPL, it's a completely different kettle of fish to the top flight in this country. I agree with your thoughts on the SPL but they do seem to manage to compete reasonably well in Europe (I am talking Celtic not Rangers here). Still think his finish tonight was out of the top drawer, but like you say the big boys aren't sniffing - YET. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 I agree with your thoughts on the SPL but they do seem to manage to compete reasonably well in Europe (I am talking Celtic not Rangers here). Celtic do seem to have this remarkable ability to raise their game significantly on big European nights, although only at home by the look of their Champions League record (0 wins and 1 draw in 16 games )! Still think his finish tonight was out of the top drawer, but like you say the big boys aren't sniffing - YET. It's not even just the big boys... even the likes of West Brom, Fulham, Bolton, etc, who struggle to score goals at that level don't seem to have even taken a passing glance at him, which is quite surprising. He may yet make it at Premier League level, but I think the right decision was made at the time to release him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Perhaps he just likes taking risks on players, after all, he did take Telfer from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 he was total crap.. and im sure, put him in the prem now and he would be total crap again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red&white4life Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Kevin Phillips, Dennis Wise, Bobby Robson (going back a bit here but he was at the Dell as a youngster, I am told) but unlike MacDonald none of them made the first team before being released. I may be mistaken but i am sure that both Rat Boy and Wise played for our first team????? Or am i missing something? ;o) Col. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Brighton away (sept 11 I think) he was brilliant, still dont see why he was let go. What is the evidence of arrogance, this is always quoted with players and generally its wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Overated Jock but knows where the net is! Australian actually, but lets not let facts get in the way of some good old xenophobia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Brighton away (sept 11 I think) he was brilliant, still dont see why he was let go. What is the evidence of arrogance, this is always quoted with players and generally its wrong. because we had beattie and the like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwarwick Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Brighton away (sept 11 I think) he was brilliant, still dont see why he was let go. What is the evidence of arrogance, this is always quoted with players and generally its wrong. As has already been pointed out we had better strikers when we were a comfortable premiership club. We shipped him out to Huddersfield and Bournemouth on loan where he managed only two goals in 20 odd appearances. He then went to Wimbledon on a monthly contract where he only played two games before he joined Motherwell and even then he struggled to score goals, two in eighteen appearances. It was in his second season at Motherwell that he started to score goals and alerted the two big clubs in Scotland but none from the premiership. We can't keep every player from the academy and some slip through the net but the likes of Theo, Bale and lallana prove we can spot and retain potential international stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Wasnt he the player that Gordon got rid of after he "nuts"ed Strachan in a training match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 because we had beattie and the like... and the like being Brett Ormerod, in that case Scott McDonald was worth a keeping for longer. We let him go for nothing he has since scored every other game and sold on for £700,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 I don't suppose he's losing to much sleep about being released by Saints. He's since played in the UEFA Cup with Motherwell and Champions League and UEFA Cup with Celtic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Shot Posted 5 November, 2008 Author Share Posted 5 November, 2008 As has already been pointed out we had better strikers when we were a comfortable premiership club. We shipped him out to Huddersfield and Bournemouth on loan where he managed only two goals in 20 odd appearances. He then went to Wimbledon on a monthly contract where he only played two games before he joined Motherwell and even then he struggled to score goals, two in eighteen appearances. It was in his second season at Motherwell that he started to score goals and alerted the two big clubs in Scotland but none from the premiership. We can't keep every player from the academy and some slip through the net but the likes of Theo, Bale and lallana prove we can spot and retain potential international stars. Not so sure we have "retained" the teenagers, Theo and Bale and Lallana will leave in Jan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scudamore Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Still think his finish tonight was out of the top drawer, but like you say the big boys aren't sniffing - YET. And David Healey always looks good for Northern Ireland...he's still garbage at Premier League level... As already pointed out there really is no issue here. He was no better than the players we had at the time and would most likely struggle to get in our team if we were still a mid table Premier League team... But of course we're not, and that's in the past so ultimately i really couldn't care less... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 As has already been pointed out we had better strikers when we were a comfortable premiership club. We shipped him out to Huddersfield and Bournemouth on loan where he managed only two goals in 20 odd appearances. He then went to Wimbledon on a monthly contract where he only played two games before he joined Motherwell and even then he struggled to score goals, two in eighteen appearances. It was in his second season at Motherwell that he started to score goals and alerted the two big clubs in Scotland but none from the premiership. We can't keep every player from the academy and some slip through the net but the likes of Theo, Bale and lallana prove we can spot and retain potential international stars. No we cant keep every player, but it was a mistake to let him go. A team develops talent for the team or to make money out of them. We don't know if we would have made it here, but we didn't have a string of top class strikers keeping him out. He wasn't given a chance and we didn't try to maximise his worth. He was let go, for nothing and he has since scored a lot of goals. We judged him as worthless and that was a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyNorthernSaints Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 and the like being Brett Ormerod, in that case Scott McDonald was worth a keeping for longer. We let him go for nothing he has since scored every other game and sold on for £700,000. I think if you asked Beattie who was his best striking partner he'd say Brett Ornerod who did alot of the donkey work and helped make BT's reputation at Saints. Lots of players develop later at other clubs Kevin Davies being one. Who would have thought of him as a target man and brusier type centre forward when he was here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Australian actually, but lets not let facts get in the way of some good old xenophobia... True true he is Australian and was a full Auzzie international and played brilliantly in the 2000 Asia Cup Tournament prior to making his debut at Brighton in the Cup and again at Middleborough in the Premiership, a game we won 3-1 away. He was in the team thanks to Mick Wadsworth, who, by doing so, upset a few of the Prima donnas. He became Mick's protegé and after Mick left he took Scotty up north. For most of the time during Strachan's time he was injured and fell out with Strachan after he recovered and felt he should be given a chance in the first team. Strachan isn't someone who bloods youngsters too easily but feels they have to come up through the ranks and serve an apprenticeship. Another player who Strachan got shot of from Saints and is still doing a good job at Bolton was Kevin Davies. To think they left for nothing when we could do with money these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 Overated Jock but knows where the net is! Mark Paul how did we let him slip through the net? He's Australian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 I must say at the time Scotty was up against such striking giants as Rosler, Tessem, Davies, not to mention James Beattie and Marian Pahars. The fact that the club lost Wayne Bridge against Strachan's wishes at the time couldn't have left Gordon in too good and tolerant mood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 I think if you asked Beattie who was his best striking partner he'd say Brett Ornerod who did alot of the donkey work and helped make BT's reputation at Saints. Lots of players develop later at other clubs Kevin Davies being one. Who would have thought of him as a target man and brusier type centre forward when he was here? I liked Brett a lot and appreciated his work rate, but SM could have been used for more than a few games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 5 November, 2008 Share Posted 5 November, 2008 he was total crap.. and im sure, put him in the prem now and he would be total crap again That's it, In a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eelpie Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 Arrogance, if I remember rightly. Whatever next! Sack all footballers displaying arrogant attitudes. What Saints need is a team of goal-shy mediocrities. That'll show 'em, right Mr Lowe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Martini Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 Whatever next! Sack all footballers displaying arrogant attitudes. What Saints need is a team of goal-shy mediocrities. That'll show 'em, right Mr Lowe? You made a mistake there. That should read Strachan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 All managers make youth decisions, based on talent and attitude. Most will be good calls and some will be bad. The nature of an academy is that they have to be weeded out. That's why Hoddle is offering his academy places to youngsters that have been released by clubs such as Liverpool at the age of 17. WGS made his decision on Scott McDonald based on the attitude of the guy then as well as knowing what else was in the locker. If worse attitude kids like Nile Ranger (now at Newcastle) somehow turn a new leaf, will that be the fault of SFC for letting him go when he was clearly a bad news guy for other young good players with potential to be mixing with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 All managers make youth decisions, based on talent and attitude. Most will be good calls and some will be bad. The nature of an academy is that they have to be weeded out. That's why Hoddle is offering his academy places to youngsters that have been released by clubs such as Liverpool at the age of 17. WGS made his decision on Scott McDonald based on the attitude of the guy then as well as knowing what else was in the locker. If worse attitude kids like Nile Ranger (now at Newcastle) somehow turn a new leaf, will that be the fault of SFC for letting him go when he was clearly a bad news guy for other young good players with potential to be mixing with? Indeed. Sometimes an arrogant kid will undergo an attitude turn-around *because* their first club kicks them out. At the time we let MacDonald go, Strachan was very much in charge and I don't remember many people objecting, in spite of all the 20-20 hindsight now being shown on here. At the time the message was 'promising youngster, but with sh*t attitude, bad influence on others'. cf Dyer? Will we have the same hindsight shown if Dyer eventually makes it in the SPL or some other mickey mouse league? K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 . I still maintain he could have done a better job of Kevin Davies (who we let go for nothing). On this I agree 100% LS. It always wrankles that WGS on cup final day didnt have KDavies on the bench when it was even obvious then that the Arsenal defence was not comfortable with big forwards.He would have been perfect to be brought on to batter them in the last 15 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 No we cant keep every player, but it was a mistake to let him go. A team develops talent for the team or to make money out of them. We don't know if we would have made it here, but we didn't have a string of top class strikers keeping him out. He wasn't given a chance and we didn't try to maximise his worth. He was let go, for nothing and he has since scored a lot of goals. We judged him as worthless and that was a mistake. I totally disagree he was given the chance to show what he could do on several occasions and he was pants! I missed about 4 Reserve games in in 3 years around that time and he had probably a handful of decent games and did nothing to show that he should of been kept on. In what divisions though has he scored a lot of goals and at what standard? All clubs let players go and have had occasions where that player goes on and does things better elsewhere - in some cases it gives them a kick up the arse. As for arrogance he used to strut around and complain at others when he wasn't doing it himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 Indeed. Sometimes an arrogant kid will undergo an attitude turn-around *because* their first club kicks them out. At the time we let MacDonald go, Strachan was very much in charge and I don't remember many people objecting, in spite of all the 20-20 hindsight now being shown on here. At the time the message was 'promising youngster, but with sh*t attitude, bad influence on others'. cf Dyer? Will we have the same hindsight shown if Dyer eventually makes it in the SPL or some other mickey mouse league? K. Or indeed have an attitude change *because* we all mature. Or at least (to save Mrs F posting reasons I might be an exception) most of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsbridge Saint Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 As I recall he scored loads of goals in the Youth team and I was always surprised we let him go for nothing. So surprised in fact that when I met an ex player at a motorway service station a couple of years later I asked him why Strachan had let McDonald go. Attitude was indeed the reason. Scotty boy thought he was good enough to score goals at the top level in Europe and play International football apparently. What a tool. Hang on........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 (edited) ................. Edited 7 December, 2008 by Viking Warrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Shot Posted 6 November, 2008 Author Share Posted 6 November, 2008 On this I agree 100% LS. It always wrankles that WGS on cup final day didnt have KDavies on the bench when it was even obvious then that the Arsenal defence was not comfortable with big forwards.He would have been perfect to be brought on to batter them in the last 15 minutes. I must admit I agree. One of Strachan's biggest failings was mis-managing Davies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 I must admit I agree. One of Strachan's biggest failings was mis-managing Davies. It seemed obvious to me if Davies was handled correctly he would be a good player again, a player who could score goals like the one at Everton are not a fluke. WGS was a good manager but he did have blind spots like us all,......including me LS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 It seemed obvious to me if Davies was handled correctly he would be a good player again, a player who could score goals like the one at Everton are not a fluke. WGS was a good manager but he did have blind spots like us all,......including me LS TBF though Nick I think they were both at fault KD had lost his way here and was homesick for the North. His ankle injury seemed to slow him and he had become very lazy and the crowd were recognising this. I remember reading the Bolton site at the time and they were not too impressed with the signing of The Pieman so he has proved everyone wrong and good for him. I remember one home defeat to West Ham when he came on and the ball was less than 15 yards away and he just stood and watched to howls of derision from the fans at that time - mind you he had played a blinder in the previous game and was only sub in this game!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 I always suspected Davies was shipped out because Strachan decided him and Beattie needed splitting up to curb their late night antics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 6 November, 2008 Share Posted 6 November, 2008 I totally disagree he was given the chance to show what he could do on several occasions and he was pants! I missed about 4 Reserve games in in 3 years around that time and he had probably a handful of decent games and did nothing to show that he should of been kept on. In what divisions though has he scored a lot of goals and at what standard? All clubs let players go and have had occasions where that player goes on and does things better elsewhere - in some cases it gives them a kick up the arse. As for arrogance he used to strut around and complain at others when he wasn't doing it himself. You have superior knowledge of the reserves than me, so I concede that the club had reason to judge him as not good enough, he may well have believed he was better than the reserves and was frustrated by that. But he obviously had something and to not get a fee for him was a mistake, I thought this at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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