norwaysaint Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 There's been lots of talk about Forren not being good enough or just not being ready yet, but more interesting to me is what MP's reasons are for sticking with Hooiveld over everyone else. From what I've seen, even when we're playing well, he's the one who sticks out as not really fitting in with our style. He always seems to be a bit of a championship level clogger. There's nothing wrong with having a big lump in defence, but it just goes against the rest of our style. I thought Fonte had been pretty good this season, but now Hooiveld is clearly preferred. As an experienced centre back, MP must either be seeing something in him, or he might just be the type who thinks a team should have one hard bloke in defence to scare opposition strikers a bit more. Can any of you experts explain it to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 There's been lots of talk about Forren not being good enough or just not being ready yet, but more interesting to me is what MP's reasons are for sticking with Hooiveld over everyone else. From what I've seen, even when we're playing well, he's the one who sticks out as not really fitting in with our style. He always seems to be a bit of a championship level clogger. There's nothing wrong with having a big lump in defence, but it just goes against the rest of our style. I thought Fonte had been pretty good this season, but now Hooiveld is clearly preferred. As an experienced centre back, MP must either be seeing something in him, or he might just be the type who thinks a team should have one hard bloke in defence to scare opposition strikers a bit more. Can any of you experts explain it to me? It's not about "scaring" oppossition strikers, but having a defender that is excellent in the air to deal with those teams that pose such a threat - Hooiveld has been pretty good at that. His distribution is better than many seem to make out, so not really a "clogger" either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 A bit of a clogger shall we say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 There's been lots of talk about Forren not being good enough or just not being ready yet, but more interesting to me is what MP's reasons are for sticking with Hooiveld over everyone else. From what I've seen, even when we're playing well, he's the one who sticks out as not really fitting in with our style. He always seems to be a bit of a championship level clogger. There's nothing wrong with having a big lump in defence, but it just goes against the rest of our style. I thought Fonte had been pretty good this season, but now Hooiveld is clearly preferred. As an experienced centre back, MP must either be seeing something in him, or he might just be the type who thinks a team should have one hard bloke in defence to scare opposition strikers a bit more. Can any of you experts explain it to me? Jos has had some good games against certain sides, certain types of player. What he can't handle is fast skilful lumps. In the air it's passable but on the deck if Fox doesn't cover correctly Jos isn't good enough to bail him out. Sometimes Morgan has gone to that side to sort them out, that works occasionally if the opposition don't have too much in midfield but on Saturday i don't think Morgan was even 100 % fit, didn't Poch change the sides over Cork left, Morgan right ? and Corky didn't have the best of games and was getting into some scrapes . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 For me Jos is the very definition of a 'clogger' - best moment was when Suarez ran through, the ref though LS had tripped Jos but actually he just fell over his own feet. Fonte scares me at this level, he doesn't use his brain enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingwing Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 Form. He's had a fair few ok games and rule one of football management is you don't change a winning team. Shame that applies to just meeting expectations for the previous two games before making mistakes that the rest of the team can't make up for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saints-cris Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 Jos has been pretty good, bar a couple of games. One was on Saturday, but there arent many people who could handle Lukaku, hes just too big and strong. Hes good in the air, and provides a good balance with Yoshi too. They've been doing well, why change it. MP would be a pretty good judge as a defender as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 30 April, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2013 Thanks for the responses. It's not a reaction thread after the loss by the way, I missed the last game because of my kid's birthday and I was away when we played Swansea, so most of the times I've seen him, we've been good (and Shaw has played), but he's stuck out like a sore thumb as not really being on the same page as the others. I don't think he's bad, just slightly incongruous with the team. Nice to have a wider view from people who get to the games though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 Got to be with this high press, it pushes teams to play the long ball. Our best player in the air is probably Jos - however that doesn't say a lot about the others! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbob40 Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 Got to be with this high press, it pushes teams to play the long ball. Our best player in the air is probably Jos - however that doesn't say a lot about the others! Exactly that..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 In my opinion it is quite simple. Yoshida is better on the right side and is therefore in competition with Fonte. For me Yoshida's all round game is better so gets the nod. Hooiveld is our best CB in the air and covers well doing that. He is not a good Premiership player but adequate to allow us the right balance. It appears Forren, according to someone who was as staplewood this week, needs to build up his muscle bulk and when signed the club indicated he was one for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 We've played some pretty direct sides of late -Wham, Norwich, Reading, Newcastle etc, so his aerial ability has come in handy. He's deserved his place in the starting line-up. I also think Cork's brilliant form has papered over the cracks in the defense. Take him out and you get a more accurate picture of our CB's ability. Hooiveld cannot deal with players running at him, even Jason bloody Scotland - IMO his forced or unintended substitution against Liverpool was one of the biggest blessings in disguise, one of the main reasons we won the game. The third goal on Saturday epitomised everything: the way Long ran past him was frightening and would not have been out of place in a video game. Even without Saturday's horror show, I would have been in two minds about starting him against a pacey Spurs side. His distribution is not as bad as people say. Bit of a hoofer (like many CBs) but can also hit an exquisite diagonal ball. Lastly, he comes across as bit of a bottler who cracks under pressure. Mistakes pile up with hm, each getting worse than the last and he can be quite quick to start pointing the finger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 Long's goal was pretty similar of how Lukaku got away from him with ease in the first half, but Boruc saved us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 Long's goal was pretty similar of how Lukaku got away from him with ease in the first half, but Boruc saved us. [longs goal] was down to Yoshida diving in and getting made to look a total mug by Lukaku. Fonte used to do that a lot in League 1 but got away with it. Who'd be a centre back these days? Are there 5 world class ones in the whole league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 [longs goal] was down to Yoshida diving in and getting made to look a total mug by Lukaku. Fonte used to do that a lot in League 1 but got away with it. Who'd be a centre back these days? Are there 5 world class ones in the whole league? Vidic is on his day...thats probably it in this league though. It's a lot more difficult being a CB these days though, mainly because everyone plays with full backs who like to push on, leaving the CB's exposed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbojones10 Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 hes left footed, MP clearly likes the left sided CB to be left footed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOSaint Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 Left footed and the only CB we have that can really win the ball in the air consistently. I would hope we any CB we bring in has a similar physical element to their game, while being better than Jos in other areas too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 [longs goal] was down to Yoshida diving in and getting made to look a total mug by Lukaku. Fonte used to do that a lot in League 1 but got away with it. Who'd be a centre back these days? Are there 5 world class ones in the whole league? Very good point. On Saturday the full backs were too bloody close to the strikers. There are days you have to accept the forward is too quick for you to beat head on, so you drop back and at least give yourself half a chance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieDog Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 Hooiveld's worst games also seem to coincide with Fox being in the team. I don't think that's a coincidence. He's not a bad player but obviously having to keep one eye on what Fox is doing, and getting absolutely no support from him when we are under the cosh highlights the weaknesses that Hooiveld has. Or maybe it's just that his better games have been with Shaw in the side as he can concentrate solely on doing his own job. Either way, I think it's pretty safe to say he won't be a first choice CB next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 Hooiveld's worst games also seem to coincide with Fox being in the team. I don't think that's a coincidence. He's not a bad player but obviously having to keep one eye on what Fox is doing, and getting absolutely no support from him when we are under the cosh highlights the weaknesses that Hooiveld has. Or maybe it's just that his better games have been with Shaw in the side as he can concentrate solely on doing his own job. Either way, I think it's pretty safe to say he won't be a first choice CB next season. If he is, its fair to say that the summer will have been an umitigated catastrophe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 hes left footed, MP clearly likes the left sided CB to be left footed. It was Adkins that was obsessed by that, for most clubs it doesn't matter. Rio Ferdinand and Vidic are both right footed, they've done alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmacian_saint Posted 30 April, 2013 Share Posted 30 April, 2013 And so the Hooiveld brigade have started another brainwashing campaign. The only reason he is playing is because MP wants a left-footed CB and a right-footed CB on the team. Given Forren is having a long integrative period, he is the only one available. That's why he is playing. No more, no less. If we had another left-footed CB or even if Fonte hadn't got injured so early in January he would've been shipped out. And again, pin balling balls back to midfield with your head is not being good in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joensuu Posted 1 May, 2013 Share Posted 1 May, 2013 If he is, its fair to say that the summer will have been an umitigated catastrophe. Think this is a bit OTT, 'catastrophe", no, disappointing yes. Talk like this will only serve to cause Alpine to panic when Jos hasn't been replaced by mid June. Sent from my Lumia 800 using Board Express Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 1 May, 2013 Share Posted 1 May, 2013 Fonte was uncomfortable on the left whenever he played there. That means that Yoshida keeps out Fonte and if Hooiveld is injured Yoshida switches to the left to allow Fonte on the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 1 May, 2013 Share Posted 1 May, 2013 Yoshi was playing on the left until Hooiveld came in when Fonte got injured. He's 2 footed anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 1 May, 2013 Share Posted 1 May, 2013 I wouldn't undervalue his love of the long ball - when we've been under the kosh and other players look like they're about to pass us into trouble it's normally him who bails us out. There's been a couple of occasions this season where a spell of pressure for the opposition has been calmed by a Hooiveld hoof which Lambert's taken down well. I think he's been okay for us this season. He was very unlucky early on with the own goals and fouls, and that drop in confidence did affect his performance but he's done fine since winning his place back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 2 May, 2013 Share Posted 2 May, 2013 . Ouch !.....I don't consider myself an expert in anything, but I think the simple answer to that question is that Jos is the only player (in his position) to show any grit and determination. He's no Michael Svensson, but doesn't flinch from tackles, but seldom gets the best of all his opponents. His yellow card count this season is modest compared with some, and his unfortunate tally of O.G.'s hasn't endeared him to some fans, (though TBF...a couple were unavoidable and not his fault directly). I sincerely hope we can get a better class defender in the summer, but I do feel that Jos' has done his best ...though perhaps it hasn't always been " good enough " on the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 2 May, 2013 Share Posted 2 May, 2013 It was Adkins that was obsessed by that, for most clubs it doesn't matter. Rio Ferdinand and Vidic are both right footed, they've done alright. of course you're right there Turkish, but don't get people thinking that you are comparing our CB's with those two............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmacian_saint Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 The level of delusion and head-burying attitude in this topic is too high for any rational debate to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 The reason as far as I can tell is as follows... With our high pressing game a lot of teams short passes get picked up by us as we try to dominate teams. Due to this the opposition teams try more long balls, meaning we need a CB that can win those. That is why in my opinion he is playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 The reason as far as I can tell is as follows... With our high pressing game a lot of teams short passes get picked up by us as we try to dominate teams. Due to this the opposition teams try more long balls, meaning we need a CB that can win those. That is why in my opinion he is playing. What I said in #9 then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 What I said in #9 then! Sorry mate, couldn't be @rsed to wade through all the guff above, but yes you're right (imho). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Will be interesting to see how many errors Jos makes tomorrow that result in a direct goalscoring chance for Spurs. I reckon 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 (edited) Will be interesting to see how many errors Jos makes tomorrow that result in a direct goalscoring chance for Spurs. I reckon 3. If Shaw is playing the risks will be greatly reduced. If Corky stays on, they'll be reduced even further. Last week was a bit of a confluence of circumstances. Jos is too exposed with Fox on his side. Edited 3 May, 2013 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Think this is a bit OTT, 'catastrophe", no, disappointing yes. Talk like this will only serve to cause Alpine to panic when Jos hasn't been replaced by mid June. Sent from my Lumia 800 using Board Express Alpine will most likely panic unless we replace the whole team by June, no attnetion should be paid to it. There has to more to it than the left footed thing, all 3 of our centre-backs plus Fox are now the weakest areas of the team. Yoshida is the most consistent and theres obviously not a lot of difference between Fonte and Hooiveld. I think Jos got in the team whils it has been doing ok and because of this he hasn't lost his place. After the defeat last week we might see some changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 If Shaw is playing the risks will be greatly reduced. If Corky stays on, they'll be reduced even further. Last week was a bit of a confluence of circumstances. Jos is too exposed with Fox on his side. Indeed. A centre half has to put a lot of legwork in when a full-back's not got back and that doesn't play to Hooiveld's strengths at all. I suspect the reason he's been in under MP is because the opposition players don't have much time to play the ball through midfield - we've certainly been dealing with a lot more aerial balls and that's what Hooiveld can deal with better than Fonte. I think everyone (including the manager) agrees that Hooiveld needs replacing for next season but he really hasn't been that bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 (edited) Will be interesting to see how many errors Jos makes tomorrow that result in a direct goalscoring chance for Spurs. I reckon 3. If you wish hard enough maybe it will come true? If Yoshida makes more tomorrow will you cut Jos some slack? Edited 3 May, 2013 by Chez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Hardly any good CB partnerships are about having a left footer and right footer, but many do have a preferred position regardless, right CB or left CB. Makes sense, given that being reliant on a left-footer reduces the likelihood of finding one by a factor of about 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Long's goal was pretty similar of how Lukaku got away from him with ease in the first half, but Boruc saved us. You can't blame centre backs for conceding goals when there's no pressure on the opposing midfield so they can pick a pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Saint Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 I don't think his distribution is often as bad as made out. He's often the 'out ball' for Boruc, and, against Chelsea for example, I think he pinged it around well. He looked off the pace against West Brom, but so did everyone else, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red&white56 Posted 5 May, 2013 Share Posted 5 May, 2013 Will be interesting to see how many errors Jos makes tomorrow that result in a direct goalscoring chance for Spurs. I reckon 3. Thinking back over yesterday I don't think he made any mistakes that led to a goalscoring chance for Spurs - does his rating improve now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmacian_saint Posted 5 May, 2013 Share Posted 5 May, 2013 Thinking back over yesterday I don't think he made any mistakes that led to a goalscoring chance for Spurs - does his rating improve now? Well there was that ridiculous jump to reach a ball that flew past him that could've let Defoe in hadn't our friend the ref spotted a nonexistent infringement. Had he decided to take two steps back he would've had no problem, but his franticness spoke louder. Having said that, it certainly wasn't a poor game overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 5 May, 2013 Share Posted 5 May, 2013 Having said that, it certainly wasn't a poor game overall. hope Jos is not reading this, his head will be massive after receiving that sort if gushing praise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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