100%Red&White Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/exclusive-championship-clubs-set-to-push-for-safestanding-trials-8626274.html A real momentum growing now, been in the news for a few days and gaining more support. Go on NC offer Saints as a 'guinea pig' for the Premier League - make the Chapel safe standing, could be a 'proper' home end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corky morris Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 My lads & I really enjoyed the terrace at Brentford, Exeter etc. The sooner we bring it back the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Que the scousers linking new safe standing with the Hillsborough disaster. Last time they pretty much put it that if you are in favour of safe standing you are against their campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Middlesbrough the only club to vote against it...why do they hate atmosphere so much !? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100%Red&White Posted 22 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Que the scousers linking new safe standing with the Hillsborough disaster. Last time they pretty much put it that if you are in favour of safe standing you are against their campaign. Well if that documentary the other night only highlighted the reason Hillsborough happened was because of poor Policing/crowd control, overcrowding and fences preventing escape. I would say none of that is an issue in today's game and really impossible to happen again. Safe standing is so far removed from terracing back then that the argument against is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 That was my point. The two issues are so thinly linked, yet every time this is discussed, the topic of Hillsborough comes up. Then a parent of a victim emotionally dams the issue followed by a load of calls from scousers backing her (usually the lead woman) up and dragging the issue off topic. It's like having Turks and MLG running the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Well if that documentary the other night only highlighted the reason Hillsborough happened was because of poor Policing/crowd control, overcrowding and fences preventing escape. I would say none of that is an issue in today's game and really impossible to happen again. Safe standing is so far removed from terracing back then that the argument against is ridiculous. Correct, but the Justice campaign have been vociferous in their stance against safe standing, claiming it is disrespectful to what they are trying to achieve. I have a lot of sympathy and support for the Justice campaign but they're plain wrong on this one. However, that seems to me to be the biggest obstacle to overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
once_bitterne Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 There's more chance of Shergar coming back. I have no idea why people keep banging on about this. It will never happen. The PL don't want it, the FA don't want it, the Police don't what it and the TV companies don't wan't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 claiming it is disrespectful to what they are trying to achieve. This is exactly how I heard it. The two issues are very thinly linked if at all. It was a ticketed event with a set number of tickets issued. The results would have been very similar if everything else was the same on that day (fencing, police opening the gate etc) if there were seats in place instead of standing. Letting people stand in an allocated position, with safe, large escape routes is the answer. It doesn't matter if they stand, sit or or do handstands really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 There's more chance of Shergar coming back. I have no idea why people keep banging on about this. It will never happen. The PL don't want it, the FA don't want it, the Police don't what it and the TV companies don't wan't. Because a large number of the fans do want it and stand anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwsaint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 I was reading When Saturday Comes and it did point out that in the vast majority of stadiums, persistent standing takes place. It also pointed out that the most dangerous place to stand is when everyone is celebrating a goal since there is a lot of jumping around. Since everyone stands at this moment anyway, the problem seems to be more out of respect for Hillsborough than actually the safety side of the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisp Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 If it's such an important safety issue then why do clubs in the football league still have terraces? As mentioned already the persistent standing in seated areas is actually more dangerous than a terrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Que the scousers linking new safe standing with the Hillsborough disaster. Last time they pretty much put it that if you are in favour of safe standing you are against their campaign. I thought Liverpool fans' groups have been fairly involved in the safe standing campaign though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 There's more chance of Shergar coming back. I have no idea why people keep banging on about this. It will never happen. The PL don't want it, the FA don't want it, the Police don't what it and the TV companies don't wan't. No there isn't. It may not be likely in the next year or two, but it will come back in at some point. I bet the TV companies at least, if not other parts of the football establishment are looking over at Germany and seeing how much standing support can add to the "event/brand". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 I thought Liverpool fans' groups have been fairly involved in the safe standing campaign though? It is possible some have, however a large vocal number are against it, to quote - The Hillsborough Family Support Group remains impeccably opposed to standing, stating today that they are "totally against any form of standing whatsoever. We are absolutely against it and always will be. Our football clubs should remain all-seater stadiums." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 It is possible some have, however a large vocal number are against it, to quote - The Hillsborough Family Support Group remains impeccably opposed to standing, stating today that they are "totally against any form of standing whatsoever. We are absolutely against it and always will be. Our football clubs should remain all-seater stadiums." Pity that an understandably emotional response is allowed to cloud rational discussion on an important point for many match going football fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Pity that an understandably emotional response is allowed to cloud rational discussion on an important point for many match going football fans. It's not just emotional, it's factually incorrect. Only stadia in the top two divisions have to be all seater, in practically every other division you can watch football from a terrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Pity that an understandably emotional response is allowed to cloud rational discussion on an important point for many match going football fans. I agree. The press (talk radio/TV etc) always roll out a member of the support group who gives an emotional 'plea'/guilt trip to all those that stand at football matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bob Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the safe standing terraces still have seats, but the seats can be folded up and this then creates 2 rows of standing area with the (now folded up) seat creating a safety barrier at the correct height? How can that be worse than standing with the back of the seat in front of you at shin height? The system implemented in Germany seems much safer to me. I nearly got killed once getting crushed against a barrier in the old North Bank terrace (Arsenal), the Gooners scored and I got pushed forward onto the barrier, ended up not being able to breath with my head touching my feet (my legs were horizontal at this point)!! Luckily someone spotted this and got people to move back! I'm for safe standing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 I ended up two rows forward when Billy scored against the skates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
once_bitterne Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Because a large number of the fans do want it and stand anyway. A number of fans still smoke in the bogs at half-time, do you think that means the club will bring back smoking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 It's not just emotional, it's factually incorrect. Only stadia in the top two divisions have to be all seater, in practically every other division you can watch football from a terrace. Thought it was just the Prem? There were terraces at Posh last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the safe standing terraces still have seats, but the seats can be folded up and this then creates 2 rows of standing area with the (now folded up) seat creating a safety barrier at the There are even designs of safe standing that have only one row of standing but with the folding seat and barrier for each row. Comparing old style terracing to new safe standing is utterly pointless, the two systems are so far apart in all ways. And as has been said on here, safe standing with a barrier is actually safer than standing with a seat in front at shin level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 A number of fans still smoke in the bogs at half-time, do you think that means the club will bring back smoking? Are the numbers comparable? Also, TV companies like it because of the atmosphere, many clubs want it because of the atmosphere and the larger number of fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint86 Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Because a large number of the fans do want it and stand anyway. Percentage of the ground wise. A small minority want it. Personally, if people want it, the take all the seats out from northam area. The rest of the ground stay seated and are happy that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Percentage of the ground wise. A small minority want it. Personally, if people want it, the take all the seats out from northam area. The rest of the ground stay seated and are happy that way. I'd say at a guess 25% want it. Like you say, if those who want to stand can stand and those who want to sit can sit, it is better for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 I'd say at a guess 25% want it. Like you say, if those who want to stand can stand and those who want to sit can sit, it is better for everyone. Stop being such a dullard while The Bear is away. You some sort of MLG wannabie? Yo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpweySaint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Im all for it but not sure how practical it would be in our stadium to make such changes. If, at some point down the line, we are looking at the expansion question and safe standing has been shown to work elsewhere it'd be fantastic to incorporate it. Hopefully it would also offer some sort of reduced pricing though im sceptical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Stop being such a dullard while The Bear is away. You some sort of MLG wannabie? Yo! I will have to correct you on that without giving an opinion on my own. We are bigger than Chelsea you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Thought it was just the Prem? There were terraces at Posh last season. Prem and Champ. Clubs promoted out of L1 get special dispensation to keep any terracing for 2 yrs, which can then be extended if they can prove that plans to move to seating are in place and sufficiently advanced, hence Posh still having terracing and Cardiff keeping their terracing for so long before moving away from Ninian Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Im all for it but not sure how practical it would be in our stadium to make such changes. If, at some point down the line, we are looking at the expansion question and safe standing has been shown to work elsewhere it'd be fantastic to incorporate it. Hopefully it would also offer some sort of reduced pricing though im sceptical Perversely, the demand for such a thing would probably drive the prices up rather than down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100%Red&White Posted 22 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 22 May, 2013 That was my point. The two issues are so thinly linked, yet every time this is discussed, the topic of Hillsborough comes up. Then a parent of a victim emotionally dams the issue followed by a load of calls from scousers backing her (usually the lead woman) up and dragging the issue off topic. It's like having Turks and MLG running the country. Yeah Tokes, I realised that was the point you were making, I was just backing it up really. A few years back I would have said it would never have had a chance because of the emotion of Hillsborough but if anything I think the recent documentary removes an obstacle for safe standing now. The reasons against just don't stack up anymore. Safe standing with barriers in front of every space is far safer than when fans jump out of their seats when a goal is scored - or when you can't get thousands of fans to sit down in them in the first place. Short of locking everyone down like in some theme park rollercoaster, they'll never keep fans seated if they don't want to be. The tide is turning and I believe more influential people now want to see it happen, it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpweySaint Posted 22 May, 2013 Share Posted 22 May, 2013 Perversely, the demand for such a thing would probably drive the prices up rather than down. I think most things would mean prices go up, seems inevitable. Even if we went down I would not be surprised to see prices remain at the same level. Though I think significantly more seats would neccesitate, at least in the short term, a drop in prices to attract new fans. Once they're hooked up go the prices, many football fans resent absurd pricing but care about their team too much to stop turning up altogether Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100%Red&White Posted 24 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 24 May, 2013 Hopefully it would also offer some sort of reduced pricing though im sceptical Perversely, the demand for such a thing would probably drive the prices up rather than down. Of course, someone's got to pay for it, and no boubt over here it will be the fans, but in Germany they managed to build a number of big new stadiums but still kept the prices down in the safe-standing areas. I caught a bit of Danny Kelly on TalkSport yesterday evening and they were doing a whole show on German football on the back of the 2 teams coming to Wembley for the Champions League Final. They were looking at how they've managed to rebuild the national side and seen their top club sides emerge as some of the most powerful in Europe and also how the Bundesliga boasts the highest attendances and best atmospheres. They reeled off the cheapest season ticket prices at all the top clubs and it was staggering. From something like £65 to around £150 - £75 at Bayern Munich - this was because they could offer safe-standing areas, so it can be done. Incidentally, some fan contacted the show and said his Blue Square season ticket at (I think it was) Billericay cost more than a season ticket at a few of the big Bundesliga clubs. We are mugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 24 May, 2013 Share Posted 24 May, 2013 The bundesliga is run by bayern Munich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 24 May, 2013 Share Posted 24 May, 2013 Can we ask them to run the premier league as well please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpweySaint Posted 24 May, 2013 Share Posted 24 May, 2013 Of course, someone's got to pay for it, and no boubt over here it will be the fans, but in Germany they managed to build a number of big new stadiums but still kept the prices down in the safe-standing areas. I caught a bit of Danny Kelly on TalkSport yesterday evening and they were doing a whole show on German football on the back of the 2 teams coming to Wembley for the Champions League Final. They were looking at how they've managed to rebuild the national side and seen their top club sides emerge as some of the most powerful in Europe and also how the Bundesliga boasts the highest attendances and best atmospheres. They reeled off the cheapest season ticket prices at all the top clubs and it was staggering. From something like £65 to around £150 - £75 at Bayern Munich - this was because they could offer safe-standing areas, so it can be done. Incidentally, some fan contacted the show and said his Blue Square season ticket at (I think it was) Billericay cost more than a season ticket at a few of the big Bundesliga clubs. We are mugs. It as staggering the difference in price, cant even be justified by the product half the time, I hear this "Bundesliga" aint half bad y'know I'd glady pay for some extra merch and a £200 season ticket and plenty of others would if they were available, the actual sums of would it be worthwhile are what it comes down to I suppose but, should we expand, I'd like to think we'd be looking at including safe standing and hopefully the football fans groups campaigning for limited prices on tickets will gain some momentum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpweySaint Posted 24 May, 2013 Share Posted 24 May, 2013 Can we ask them to run the premier league as well please? We will trade them Stoke and half of either of the merseyside clubs, their pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 24 May, 2013 Share Posted 24 May, 2013 I don't understand Justice for the 96 on this, I thought the whole 'Hillsborough was because of standing' was all part of the cover up they've campaigned so hard against? Without trying to cause an argument about Hillsborough, to me the bottom line was fencing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100%Red&White Posted 24 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 24 May, 2013 I don't understand Justice for the 96 on this, I thought the whole 'Hillsborough was because of standing' was all part of the cover up they've campaigned so hard against? Without trying to cause an argument about Hillsborough, to me the bottom line was fencing? I would have thought most now accept that terracing certainly wasn't to blame and for many it never was the reason for the disaster. Liverpool are entitled to never wanting to see standing areas return to Anfield, that was a terrible tragedy to hit the people of that city but that shouldn't stop anyone else making their own decision about it. They'll probably only ever be offered seats when visiting away grounds. Safe standing is a safer option to what we get in today's stadiums of standing in seated areas, there's no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alehouseboys Posted 25 May, 2013 Share Posted 25 May, 2013 Now I have the utmost respect for those that have campaigned tirelessly on behalf of the 96 Hillsborough victims, it's easy to understand their stance against seeing terraces return, but I think they're just sticking their fingers in their ears and going "blah-blah-blah" when they say it should never happen and it's not safe. I guess none of these actually go to football these days because I can't remember seeing Liverpool fans sitting in the away section at SMS, or at any other away game actually, and most of the Kop is always standing at Anfield. How can they seriously go on about never seeing standing at football again and yet tolerate the far more dangerous situations they get at their games these days. There would be a rail in front of every spectator with safe standing, it couldn't be safer. Interesting to see Lee Hoos, now at Burnley, is another added to the list as backing the idea. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/01/football-fans-stand-politicians-sit-hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 25 May, 2013 Share Posted 25 May, 2013 If it's such an important safety isefore this tragesue then why do clubs in the football league still have terraces? As mentioned already the persistent standing in seated areas is actually more dangerous than a terrace. I agree. I am sure standing is safe if it is controlled in a proper manner. Hillsborough was awful, but before this tragedy we had decades of the terraces and few major incidents. Does standing not still exist in many other European countries ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alehouseboys Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 This is an interesting read... http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/news/borussiadortmundhostsafestandinggroup Safe standing for 24,454 in the Südtribüne 'Yellow Wall' south end of the 80,552 capacity Westfalenstadion in Dortmund and there's never been a problem. Surely we could handle 6,000 in the Northam, couldn't we? Impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwsaint Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 I agree. I am sure standing is safe if it is controlled in a proper manner. Hillsborough was awful, but before this tragedy we had decades of the terraces and few major incidents. Does standing not still exist in many other European countries ? From a safety aspect, which is better, to have a knee high restraint made of PVC or a waist high support made of steel. I'm all for making football safer for supporters so parents feel they can bring their children and older people are well catered for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 This is a classic example of the top brass not listening, last time I checked 72% of fans wanted this, why not give it to the fans? Just like the European vote this, or it seems it, a denial of what the people want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 This is an interesting read... http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/news/borussiadortmundhostsafestandinggroup Safe standing for 24,454 in the Südtribüne 'Yellow Wall' south end of the 80,552 capacity Westfalenstadion in Dortmund and there's never been a problem. Surely we could handle 6,000 in the Northam, couldn't we? Impressive. Its more than that to me, its a show of how things can and should be done in this Country, our League is desperate of something new, the Premiership is boring now, sure the Kiwi's or Thai's maybe buying into it for tv viewing but what about the people over here in a sterile boring football ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djharvey Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Think the PL need to move swiftly with the return of terracing, the bundesliga is becoming ever more popular and it's easy to see why. Good football, large/modern stadia, big crowds, great atmospheres. All this in a safe environment that includes terracing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1976.4.38 Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Think the PL need to move swiftly with the return of terracing, the bundesliga is becoming ever more popular and it's easy to see why. Good football, large/modern stadia, big crowds, great atmospheres. All this in a safe environment that includes terracing. this is england,we talk about something for about 30years till anything is done unless your in an away end the general atmosphere from home support,take spurs and sunderland as two examples is dreadful,to say the premiershipis the best in the world is wrong in so many ways terracing is needed before the atmosphere dies altogether with jobsworth stewards trying to make us sit all game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 I believe I did a thread on this 6 months ago and got hammered for dare speaking out against the premiership, God its ****e and boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 I believe I did a thread on this 6 months ago and got hammered for dare speaking out against the premiership, God its ****e and boring. Will you sign my autograph book please, Baz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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