1 week to go, will Kruger, Koeman n Ko stick to their word?

[OldNick]

Things change. Holding onto Schniederlin may have become almost impossible. Basically player power rules, chasing more lucre. I suggest we waste less time castigating the board and ill advised 'promises' and more on envisaging/supporting a new team and formation. And just hoping that Koeman has the draw to get the best possible squad together by Sept 1.

I dont think you can let the board get away with their misleading promises, if that does come to pass. It is obvious that i have never trusted the new board and so a little bias comes in my post. IF MS goes (or anyone else really) then Krueger has done the fans a disservice. He came out and made some massive statements and as far as iam concerned should keep to them

[Whitey Grandad]

apparently Krueger said we will be stronger at the end of the window as we were when it opened. So its 7th or better this season then. Who's going to put money on that?

 

It doesn't mean that, other teams may have got stronger too so comparisons in terms of league position are not relevant.

[aintforever]

If he goes then the only person who deserves any flack is the player himself, the board are in a difficult position and if the player is being an unsettling influence or not performing as he should selling may be the best decision.

[derry]

If he goes then the only person who deserves any flack is the player himself, the board are in a difficult position and if the player is being an unsettling influence or not performing as he should selling may be the best decision.

 

If that is the case we should unload him but only at the right price for us.

[OldNick]

If he goes then the only person who deserves any flack is the player himself, the board are in a difficult position and if the player is being an unsettling influence or not performing as he should selling may be the best decision.

yep, give the board the get out of jail card.

[OldNick]

It doesn't mean that, other teams may have got stronger too so comparisons in terms of league position are not relevant.

well i cant see how you can guage it then. If you just want to believe we are stronger then that's fine.

[Window Cleaner]

well i cant see how you can guage it then. If you just want to believe we are stronger then that's fine.

 

Well absolutely, stronger to me means obtaining more points than last season, it's the only real yardstick in football. You cannot possibily be stronger if you lose more matches.

You can only be judged in relation to your competition. As of now, for me anyway, we're way way off of last season's quality, that's why we're 5 points down from the 2 same matches as last season. Still there's plenty of room for improvement against sides like Sunderland and West Ham. If we fail to beat West Ham on Saturday then questions will be asked. If we don't get say 12 points from say the first 10 games then Koeman may well not make a long career at SFC.

Edited 26 August, 2014 by Window Cleaner

[washsaint]

OldNick - so what exactly is your great idea for:

 

1) preventing the player sales earlier this summer

2) judging whether we are stronger (squad wise) or not at the end of the window

 

You are extremely good at complaining but have not seen anything from you that is constructive of how the Board could have kept players, etc. And please don't say "pay them more": how on earth would a club our size pay wages of 100K per week?

 

Of course the Board has made mistakes this summer - no-one can deny that. But at least it feels like we will have a sustainable club moving forward.

[Greenridge]

OldNick - so what exactly is your great idea for:

 

1) preventing the player sales earlier this summer

window

 

 

Tell them they can't leave like the Club have done with MS? What's different?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Tell them they can't leave like the Club have done with MS? What's different?

 

It's still not clear what went on at the club to make half the team want to leave in the first place.

[DT]

Probably his contract. He maybe didn't have the 'promise you the earth' ones the rest we shipped out were on? Just a hunch.

[OldNick]

OldNick - so what exactly is your great idea for:

 

1) preventing the player sales earlier this summer

2) judging whether we are stronger (squad wise) or not at the end of the window

 

You are extremely good at complaining but have not seen anything from you that is constructive of how the Board could have kept players, etc. And please don't say "pay them more": how on earth would a club our size pay wages of 100K per week?

 

Of course the Board has made mistakes this summer - no-one can deny that. But at least it feels like we will have a sustainable club moving forward.

I dont know Saints wage structure. Apparently it was quoted on here that Ramirez was on 60k (IIRC)

 

As much as many dont like the my opinion on this, the way to keep a lot of the players was to keep NC who in turn would have kept MP for at least another season.

I dont expect KL to spend her fortune on my entertainment, but being in the PL is supposed to be worth 100m (as per the play off final being the most valuable game in the world TM)

Therefore we could have had a sustainable club. I understand selling Shaw for 30 mil, but the others were fully on board with NC and MP, I believe that the players may have stayed as long as the club kept its ambition. RL's words were telling 'It could have been different' You could see he was less than impressed with KL choice of staff.

 

Only a few people really know the full story and so either of our positions could be correct. I am happy with my view of what has happened.

Krueger made a bold statement saying MS and JRod will not be allowed to leave. Time will tell if he is true to his word.

Obviously they will move the goalposts to suit, eg 'Cant have an unhappy player' , 'The price was too good' 'The squad will be stronger with Townsend' etc etc

I dont like the way the fans have been IMO hoodwinked, but thats life.

This is a football forum, where you can vent your frustrations,and opinions.

[Window Cleaner]

Tell them they can't leave like the Club have done with MS? What's different?

 

But then where would the money for the incoming transfers have come from ? From various speeches about core players and the like ou just have to assume that keeping those who have left wasn't top of the agenda. We can only judge the result of that decision from this year's games. For the moment the result is not probing but it's early days as of yet.

Back in May Reed and Krueger said we didn't need to sell, the fact that we then did tends to suggest that we actually wanted to do that. I feel sure that Morgan has only fallen into line because of his desire to play for France, if he was a regular international with 15 or so caps to his name already we might have seen a different face of him. He wants to be picked against Spain and Albania next week, DD doesn't select players who don't play for their clubs.

Edited 26 August, 2014 by Window Cleaner

[once_bitterne]

It's still not clear what went on at the club to make half the team want to leave in the first place.

 

The abandoning of the ambition to challenge the top 6 and the re-instatement of the old SLH ambition to finish no worse than 17th each season.

[Greenridge]

Probably his contract. He maybe didn't have the 'promise you the earth' ones the rest we shipped out were on? Just a hunch.

 

Do you think Chambers had such a contract (if there is/was such a thing/clause) when he signed it at whatever age he was (17?) and having not played a first team game? I like the idea that he (/ his agent) were so confident in his ability that they insisted on such a clause at such a tender age!

[OldNick]

But then where would the money for the incoming transfers have come from ? From various speeches about core players and the like ou just have to assume that keeping those who have left wasn't top of the agenda. WE can only judge the result of that decision from this year's games. For the moment the result is not probing but it's early days as of yet.

Back in May Reed and Krueger said we didn't need to sell, the fact that we then did tends to suggest that we actually wanted to do that. I feel sure that Morgan has only fallen into line because of his desire to play for France, if he was a regular international with 15 or so caps to his name already we might have seen a different face of him. He wants to be picked against Spain and Albania next week, DD doesn't select players who don't play for their clubs.

It was easy to decode their words as 'come and get them'

Only the uproar after Chambers was sold did they take any action to try and stop the outcry.Krueger then was wheeled out with his promises

[Greenridge]

But then where would the money for the incoming transfers have come from ?

 

If we hadn't sold them we wouldn't need money for incoming transfers.

 

Coming back to Morgan I honestly believe he was the next in line to go, it was a fait accompli until Krueger (and the Club) wised up to the increasing displeasure of the fan base to his sell-all strategy.

[Window Cleaner]

If we hadn't sold them we wouldn't need money for incoming transfers.

 

Coming back to Morgan I honestly believe he was the next in line to go, it was a fait accompli until Krueger (and the Club) wised up to the increasing displeasure of the fan base to his sell-all strategy.

 

But we did need money for transfers, for a CB,for a keeper, for a striker to replace JRod in at least the short term. In fact we probably needed to spend the 35 million £

transfer kitty that Guan informed us was in place. Right now instead of a net transfer spend of that 35 million we have a net transfer excedent of at least that. So the 35 million £ + sales was always bullsh*t, notice it's purveyor has disappeared.

[OldNick]

But we did need money for transfers, for a CB,for a keeper, for a striker to replace JRod in at least the short term. In fact we probably needed to spend the 35 million £

transfer kitty that Guan informed us was in place. Right now instead of a net transfer spend of that 35 million we have a net transfer excedent of at least that. So the 35 million £ + sales was always bullsh*t, notice it's purveyor has disappeared.

but wasnt 35m promised as a warchest and then there was the Shaw money?

[Greenridge]

But we did need money for transfers, for a CB,for a keeper, for a striker to replace JRod in at least the short term. In fact we probably needed to spend the 35 million £

transfer kitty that Guan informed us was in place. Right now instezad of a net transfer spend of that 35 million we have a net transfer excedent of at least that. So the 35 million £ + sales was always bullsh*t, notice it's purveyor has disappeared.

 

I agree we needed another CB but by selling our best we then needed two. We could have gone for an up and coming younger keeper (at low transfer £) which would have given us cover. Again, bringing in Forster has left us no better off in the short term and indeed £10m and a keeper down (Boruc awol). JRod I agree although he will be back in less than two months it would seem. So, all in all, looking at your examples it's not really worked out has it.

[Window Cleaner]

but wasnt 35m promised as a warchest and then there was the Shaw money?

 

Well yes, it was "promised" before any sales were reality. It was supposed to be available for team strengthening this summer and did not depend on sales. WE could have strengthened the side with just that money but it didn't happen. All we've spent is the eventual result of the transfers of Lallana and Shaw, preseume the rest is a kitty for the future but I think we can wave goodbye to the famous 35 million £ "warchest". It never existed, it never will.

[OldNick]

Well yes, it was "promised" before any sales were reality. It was supposed to be available for team strengthening this summer and did not depend on sales. WE could have strengthened the side with just that money but it didn't happen. All we've spent is the eventual result of the transfers of Lallana and Shaw, preseume the rest is a kitty for the future but I think we can wave goodbye tothe famous 35 million £ "warchest". It never existed, it never will.

Yep, all a mirage.

Im sour about it as the club really was something to be proud of,and we got fairly universal praise for what we were doing. A joy to watch and there was a feeling of something special. Now it seems to me that it is only about survival and bringing a few players through to earn money from.

[Window Cleaner]

I agree we needed another CB but by selling our best we then needed two. We could have gone for an up and coming younger keeper (at low transfer £) which would have given us cover. Again, bringing in Forster has left us no better off in the short term and indeed £10m and a keeper down (Boruc awol). JRod I agree although he will be back in less than two months it would seem. So, all in all, looking at your examples it's not really worked out has it.

 

I don't quite get your point here, what I'm trying to say is that we didn't need the money but we obviously did. We were supposed to have a war chest which didn't obviously exist. If we had not sold the crown jewels I doubt that we would have bought anyone, exactly as we did not last January. I'm saying that we were led on, perhaps the ITK in question really knew nothing at all.

[Whitey Grandad]

Well absolutely, stronger to me means obtaining more points than last season, it's the only real yardstick in football. You cannot possibily be stronger if you lose more matches.

You can only be judged in relation to your competition. As of now, for me anyway, we're way way off of last season's quality, that's why we're 5 points down from the 2 same matches as last season. Still there's plenty of room for improvement against sides like Sunderland and West Ham. If we fail to beat West Ham on Saturday then questions will be asked. If we don't get say 12 points from say the first 10 games then Koeman may well not make a long career at SFC.

 

They're not the same two matches are they, nothing like it, no comparison apart from the names of the teams involved. The dates and circumstances are completely different.

[Block34]

but wasnt 35m promised as a warchest and then there was the Shaw money?

 

Nope, I don't think any amount was 'officially' stated other than to say monies received would be added to already available funds.

 

Many then presumed we would be spending all of the money 'unofficially' banded about ie the alleged £35m chest + presumed £95m transfers in this window.

[Whitey Grandad]

The abandoning of the ambition to challenge the top 6 and the re-instatement of the old SLH ambition to finish no worse than 17th each season.

 

Anyone who ever believed that we could do this is under a serious misapprehension.

[OldNick]

Nope, I don't think any amount was 'officially' stated other than to say monies received would be added to already available funds.

 

Many then presumed we would be spending all of the money 'unofficially' banded about ie the alleged £35m chest + presumed £95m transfers in this window.

I think something was said about funds to spend when MP was leaving

[Window Cleaner]

I think something was said about funds to spend when MP was leaving

 

Indeed we had a bloke on this forum purporting to leak stuff directly from the club saying that 35 million £ was available for this summer's window before any player sales. Most then regarded him as the oracle of ITKing. Take it up with him.

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?50568-Latest-information/page6#.U_yX3Pl_vWk

Edited 26 August, 2014 by Window Cleaner

[Greenridge]

I don't quite get your point here, what I'm trying to say is that we didn't need the money but we obviously did. We were supposed to have a war chest which didn't obviously exist. If we had not sold the crown jewels I doubt that we would have bought anyone, exactly as we did not last January. I'm saying that we were led on, perhaps the ITK in question really knew nothing at all.

 

OK so I think we're on the same page.

 

This post is the most interesting for me that has not been answered (adequately)

 

It's still not clear what went on at the club to make half the team want to leave in the first place.

 

I know that folks (MLG for example) have told us it's 'blatantly obvious' and quoted top four clubs were too attractive (which was extended to 'biggest clubs in the world' when Man U came in for Shaw) and CL football (which was extended to 'European' football when MS and JRod were linked to Spurs) but all at once? A little too convenient? Lambert in his recent interview that was posted on here alluded to problems (see LFP's post above). Was that isolated to just MoPo leaving or inclusive of the Cortese situation or or?

 

I haven't yet bought in to the Redslo FFP view that he so strongly puts across yet which the Club have never made mention of and get's little credit in the press for being the reason. If it was they could have appeased the fan base by saying so. OK, maybe not at the time as it may have impacted transfer fees received (for which the Club should get huge plaudits for the incredible returns) but maybe after the window has closed they'll be able to be more open about it.

[Gemmel]

OK so I think we're on the same page.

 

This post is the most interesting for me that has not been answered (adequately)

 

 

 

I know that folks (MLG for example) have told us it's 'blatantly obvious' and quoted top four clubs were too attractive (which was extended to 'biggest clubs in the world' when Man U came in for Shaw) and CL football (which was extended to 'European' football when MS and JRod were linked to Spurs) but all at once? A little too convenient? Lambert in his recent interview that was posted on here alluded to problems (see LFP's post above). Was that isolated to just MoPo leaving or inclusive of the Cortese situation or or?

 

I haven't yet bought in to the Redslo FFP view that he so strongly puts across yet which the Club have never made mention of and get's little credit in the press for being the reason. If it was they could have appeased the fan base by saying so. OK, maybe not at the time as it may have impacted transfer fees received (for which the Club should get huge plaudits for the incredible returns) but maybe after the window has closed they'll be able to be more open about it.

 

I think it was a culmination of things, that provided excuses, but ultimately, it isn't too much more complicated than, bigger clubs and more importantly bigger wages + in some cases some very attractive signing on fees.

 

For all those that dismiss this and searching for something more sinister, there would be less than 1% of posters on here that wouldn't move jobs if they were suddenly offered twice or three times their wages and the opportunity of working for a more glamorous company.

 

In some ways, losing Cortese, then Poch, coupled with the "Big" clubs" interest, it was almost inevitable and whilst we can bang our chests and claim "They were under contract", the reality is, that it doesn't really work like that. Whilst the board could have undoubtedly managed things a little better, they do get credit for the fees the commanded.

[Window Cleaner]

. Whilst the board could have undoubtedly managed things a little better, they do get credit for the fees the commanded.

 

If of course the fees obtained eventually benefit the club. For the time being the most part of them has been spent on players who are of a lower standard than those sold.

Forster perhaps being the exception so far. As for the rest time will tell.

[shurlock]

I think it was a culmination of things, that provided excuses, but ultimately, it isn't too much more complicated than, bigger clubs and more importantly bigger wages + in some cases some very attractive signing on fees.

 

For all those that dismiss this and searching for something more sinister, there would be less than 1% of posters on here that wouldn't move jobs if they were suddenly offered twice or three times their wages and the opportunity of working for a more glamorous company.

 

In some ways, losing Cortese, then Poch, coupled with the "Big" clubs" interest, it was almost inevitable and whilst we can bang our chests and claim "They were under contract", the reality is, that it doesn't really work like that. Whilst the board could have undoubtedly managed things a little better, they do get credit for the fees the commanded.

 

Another classic mongboardism. The contractual relationship clubs and players enter into is fundamentally different from that which you or I have with our employers. When was the last time you were given a 4-5 year contract?

[Gemmel]

Another classic mongboardism. The contractual relationship clubs and players enter into is fundamentally different from that which you or I have with our employers. When was the last time you were given a 4-5 year contract?

 

I'm not sure what your point is? Of course normal employees have different contracts to footballers, but the premise is still the same. Move company for more money.

If you want to get anal - An IT contractor takes a two year contract. half way through, you get offered a different contract for a longer period of time on three times as much money..... But shurlock, I am sure you have to much integrity and would say no.

[Window Cleaner]

I'm not sure what your point is? Of course normal employees have different contracts to footballers, but the premise is still the same. Move company for more money.

If you want to get anal - An IT contractor takes a two year contract. half way through, you get offered a different contract for a longer period of time on three times as much money..... But shurlock, I am sure you have to much integrity and would say no.

 

In fact most fixed term contracts can only be broken by mutual agreement, you can quit but in that case your employer can seek compensation. Getting out of a fixed term contract is never a one way street unless it's for misconduct on your part or some defaillance on theirs.

[shurlock]

In fact most fixed term contracts can only be broken by mutual agreement, you can quit but in that case your employer can seek compensation. Getting out of a fixed term contract is never a one way street unless it's for misconduct on your part or some defaillance on theirs.

 

Many people have standard notice clauses in their employment contracts.

Edited 26 August, 2014 by shurlock

[shurlock]

I'm not sure what your point is? Of course normal employees have different contracts to footballers, but the premise is still the same. Move company for more money.

If you want to get anal - An IT contractor takes a two year contract. half way through, you get offered a different contract for a longer period of time on three times as much money..... But shurlock, I am sure you have to much integrity and would say no.

 

Point is that the relationship is fundamentally different -knowing that I can be let go relatively easily induces a different mindset and level of commitment towards my employer and alternative opportunities. If an employer offered the same protections that a football club offers players, would I act differently if something better came along? Who knows. Possibly but there's plenty of evidence that people reciprocate in those circumstances rather than pursuing straightforward self-interest.

[Roo1976]

None of this would ever have happened if Cortese was still here. We'd probably be six points clear at the top of the league too.

 

what you mean wed have 12 already?

[Gemmel]

In fact most fixed term contracts can only be broken by mutual agreement, you can quit but in that case your employer can seek compensation. .

 

Exactly! Much like errmmmmmmmm a transfer fee??

[Gemmel]

. Possibly but there's plenty of evidence that people reciprocate in those circumstances rather than pursuing straightforward self-interest.

 

Not in football there isn't - In fact it is completely the opposite.

[John B]

I dont think you can let the board get away with their misleading promises, if that does come to pass. It is obvious that i have never trusted the new board and so a little bias comes in my post. IF MS goes (or anyone else really) then Krueger has done the fans a disservice. He came out and made some massive statements and as far as iam concerned should keep to them

 

Stop ****ing whingeing and just support the team

[derry]

Maybe we should be putting restrictive clauses in that restrict playing for EPL competitors for two years. Companies do this with key personnel who are in possession of technology/information.

[aintforever]

I dont know Saints wage structure. Apparently it was quoted on here that Ramirez was on 60k (IIRC)

 

As much as many dont like the my opinion on this, the way to keep a lot of the players was to keep NC who in turn would have kept MP for at least another season.

I dont expect KL to spend her fortune on my entertainment, but being in the PL is supposed to be worth 100m (as per the play off final being the most valuable game in the world TM)

Therefore we could have had a sustainable club. I understand selling Shaw for 30 mil, but the others were fully on board with NC and MP, I believe that the players may have stayed as long as the club kept its ambition. RL's words were telling 'It could have been different' You could see he was less than impressed with KL choice of staff.

 

Only a few people really know the full story and so either of our positions could be correct. I am happy with my view of what has happened.

Krueger made a bold statement saying MS and JRod will not be allowed to leave. Time will tell if he is true to his word.

Obviously they will move the goalposts to suit, eg 'Cant have an unhappy player' , 'The price was too good' 'The squad will be stronger with Townsend' etc etc

I dont like the way the fans have been IMO hoodwinked, but thats life.

This is a football forum, where you can vent your frustrations,and opinions.

 

NC wanted to leave, what could the club do to stop him, tie him to his chair?

 

If the owners don't want to spend what he wanted to spend that is up to them, it's pointless moaning about it.

[St Chalet]

Maybe we should be putting restrictive clauses in that restrict playing for EPL competitors for two years. Companies do this with key personnel who are in possession of technology/information.

 

Most companies can't sell their staff to their competitors tbf.

[OldNick]

Stop ****ing whingeing and just support the team

i do , but I question the board who use our loyalty to abuse us

[CB Fry]

i do , but I question the board who use our loyalty to abuse us

Jesus H Christ you type some rubbish.

[OldNick]

Jesus H Christ you type some rubbish.

what was it you put that time? 'How dare you rubbish my right for an opinion.' It was something pathetic and weak like that lol

[CB Fry]

what was it you put that time? 'How dare you rubbish my right for an opinion.' It was something pathetic and weak like that lol

It wasn't pathetic or weak whatsoever. It was, if anything, an aggressive put down of someone who ranks alongside you as one of this forums biggest fu cking idiots.

 

"Waaah Ralph Krueger abused me". Fu ck me.

[OldNick]

It wasn't pathetic or weak whatsoever. It was, if anything, an aggressive put down of someone who ranks alongside you as one of this forums biggest fu cking idiots.

 

"Waaah Ralph Krueger abused me". Fu ck me.

Lol, it really doesn't take much for you to go off on one does it ?

As for your aggressive put down,it was like Mary Poppins trying to put down Lennox Lewis.

I can't be bothered to look back for the post but boy it was pathetic. I'm sure somebody will unearth the gem.

So in future before you tell people how much rubbish they put up on here,perhaps a quIck look in the mirror wouLd be the best advice.

 

As I posted earlier, I have no problem with anyone on here, it a forum get over it

[CB Fry]

Lol, it really doesn't take much for you to go off on one does it ?

As for your aggressive put down,it was like Mary Poppins trying to put down Lennox Lewis.

I can't be bothered to look back for the post but boy it was pathetic. I'm sure somebody will unearth the gem.

So in future before you tell people how much rubbish they put up on here,perhaps a quIck look in the mirror wouLd be the best advice.

 

As I posted earlier, I have no problem with anyone on here, it a forum get over it

 

Just keep imagining that post in your head, sweetheart.

 

Meanwhile today, on this very thread, a few posts up you accuse the board of SFC of "abusing" you.

 

Well done.

[Saint IQ]

Do you think Chambers had such a contract (if there is/was such a thing/clause) when he signed it at whatever age he was (17?) and having not played a first team game? I like the idea that he (/ his agent) were so confident in his ability that they insisted on such a clause at such a tender age!

 

He could well have, you never know. It was less than 13 months ago he signed that 4 year deal with us when he was 18. Now he is at Arsenal! Wouldn't in my wildest dreams of thought he'd be there after 1 season when he signed that deal. http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/article/chambers-commits-to-saints-958138.aspx

Edited 27 August, 2014 by Saint IQ