General Election 2015

[View From The Top]

He's not. I think he really is that indifferent/incapable of realising that there are people with such poor aptitude that they can't get anything, not even unskilled work, like project management.

 

He's a f**king idiot who is so removed from reality he might as well be Michael Gove.

[View From The Top]

Most GPs don't receive a public sector salary though; they're effectively self employed. So how would that work? Maybe we should 'privatise' MPs too...?

 

Didn't know that. Interesting.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I'm not saying work hard and life will be fair, as life isn't.

 

I'm not aware of any of those stostories, that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying they don't exist, as of course there are always outliers, but I don't think there are plentiful examples of this.

 

Agree on jail time over the banks btw.

 

Well when I worked in sainsburys there were plenty of older people who had been working on checkouts for years and years, and it's doubtful whether they were earning anything near the living wage. In all honesty they weren't particularly intelligent so that's the most they could really hope for.

 

So what did working hard do them? Should they have scanned food quicker to progress in life? All they can do is carry on in their boring jobs while claiming in work benefits and enjoy a minimal life as best they can

[Unbelievable Jeff]

He's a f**king idiot who is so removed from reality he might as well be Michael Gove.

 

Perhaps during the riots they were following the wonderful example of their teachers, and getting themselves some free grub in prison?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Well when I worked in sainsburys there were plenty of older people who had been working on checkouts for years and years, and it's doubtful whether they were earning anything near the living wage. In all honesty they weren't particularly intelligent so that's the most they could really hope for.

 

So what did working hard do them? Should they have scanned food quicker to progress in life? All they can do is carry on in their boring jobs while claiming in work benefits and enjoy a minimal life as best they can

 

These aren't really the people we're talking about, I doubt many of these rioters had jobs.

 

Living wage is something that should be paid by the way, certainly by the larger businesses.

[trousers]

[Ex Lion Tamer]

These aren't really the people we're talking about, I doubt many of these rioters had jobs.

 

Living wage is something that should be paid by the way, certainly by the larger businesses.

 

And when a life of low paid checkout drudgery is their alternative, who can blame them?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

He's not. I think he really is that indifferent/incapable of realising that there are people with such poor aptitude that they can't get anything, not even unskilled work, like project management.

 

It's not indifference or incapability of realising, it's working with what you know. You say all Tories are ****s, yet that is based on the Tories you know. Are you incapable of realising that not all of them are ****s?

[Torres]

So, if you are a committed Labour voter in a seat with a 30,000 Tory majority, does your vote count ? ( Or vice versa for balance ).

 

Yes, it counts. It might not change the result, but it counts. The idea that one individual's vote should always change a result is an absurdity.

 

Don't really know what you're saying now. The point is that democracy fails those most in need, so sometimes they have to use other means to get heard. And they are the ones that most need to be heard, because their problems are most serious, and comfortable people forget what it's like outside their cosy environs

 

Pretty sure that a middle-aged woman needing to see a cancer specialist on the NHS is quite serious.

 

Most Governments in the UK are elected with less than 50% of the electorate voting for them.

 

Exactly, contrary to Torres' post, the minority did indeed hold sway.

 

No, his point was that we shouldn't make decisions based on the majority wish, because then the minority lose out. As I said, that's absurd.

 

LOL at that.

 

You can LOL all you like, but if the estimated 1million young people who are not even registered to vote got off their arses and actually did vote, the mainstream politicians who are apparently failing them so would certainly sit up and take notice. Perhaps then we'd see more policies that appealed to the under-25s rather than so many which appear to appeal to the over 65s. If even a quarter of the 39% of eligible adults who didn't vote in the last GE did this time around, there'd be a reaction.

 

I'll make it clear that I have no numbers to back this one up, but I've a pretty strong hunch that if you surveyed a decent selection of people who smashed stuff to up "because they didn't have a voice" you'd find that a very unhealthy percentage of them didn't vote in 2010.

[pap]

Perhaps during the riots they were following the wonderful example of their teachers, and getting themselves some free grub in prison?

 

I still say VFTT wins this one.

 

Whatever he has done has been paid for. Your problems will persist.

 

These aren't really the people we're talking about, I doubt many of these rioters had jobs.

 

Living wage is something that should be paid by the way, certainly by the larger businesses.

 

I doubt you've done any reading to establish your doubt.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

And when a life of low paid checkout drudgery is their alternative, who can blame them?

 

Blame them from what, attacking people and their businesses?

[Bearsy]

Living wage is something that should be paid by the way, certainly by the larger businesses.

 

if you paid everyone living wage, then i spose all my bills and stuff would have to go up to finance it, and then the living wage wouldn't be enough to live on. Stands to reason. Viscous circle really. I think it would be better if the law made it job swap, so i.e. everyone had to spend a month as i.e. checkout worker on minimum wage, but then the next month you swap jobs with i.e. fireman on bit better wage, and the next month you are i.e. brain surgeon, and then work your way up until i.e. for the last month of the year you are Premier League footballer or i.e. Jeremy Clarkson. That would be good system + fair distribution of wealth

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I still say VFTT wins this one.

 

Whatever he has done has been paid for. Your problems will persist.

 

 

 

I doubt you've done any reading to establish your doubt.

 

No, which is why I put doubt.

 

We all have our demons Pap. It seems that mine is that I think people should work hard. It seems that yours is that this country or world will never provide the utopia you believe should be possible. You will always be disappointed.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

if you paid everyone living wage, then i spose all my bills and stuff would have to go up to finance it, and then the living wage wouldn't be enough to live on. Stands to reason. Viscous circle really. I think it would be better if the law made it job swap, so i.e. everyone had to spend a month as i.e. checkout worker on minimum wage, but then the next month you swap jobs with i.e. fireman on bit better wage, and the next month you are i.e. brain surgeon, and then work your way up until i.e. for the last month of the year you are Premier League footballer or i.e. Jeremy Clarkson. That would be good system + fair distribution of wealth

 

Effectively someone will always have to take up the slack, and thats the problem with this country, the world, life.

[pap]

No, which is why I put doubt.

 

We all have our demons Pap. It seems that mine is that I think people should work hard. It seems that yours is that this country or world will never provide the utopia you believe should be possible. You will always be disappointed.

 

Oh f**k off, UJ.

 

Your problems are that you don't think before you speak and you don't know when to shut the fúck up, leading you into your frequent conflict with other posters as they easily eviscerate your ill-considered brain farts for the benefit of a viewing audience.

 

And hard work? Oh f**k off again, UJ. You forget that I know what you do. You tell people to do stuff, you report to management that stuff has been done (or not done). You are not working down a f**king coal mine, and are lucky enough to command a contract rate in an in-demand market.

 

You don't f**king know hard work. If you did, you'd be doing something else.

[View From The Top]

Perhaps during the riots they were following the wonderful example of their teachers, and getting themselves some free grub in prison?

 

Nom nom. Yummy.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Blame them from what, attacking people and their businesses?

No for choosing to be unemployed, if indeed it is a choice. Don't forget we had unemployment of around 3m at the time of the riots, should all these people have worked harder and then jobs would magically appear?

 

Face it, the working poor of Britain got royally screwed by the bankers and the anti regulation elites, and had every right to say we're going to make you notice us.

 

Not to mention a black and Asian community that was six times more likely to be stop and searched by police than if they were white. Seeing Mark Duggan killed by police was rightly or wrongly a flashpoint which caused an eruption of anger about the way the police acts in general

[Coxford_lou]

HA! The politics thread is actually making me laugh for once... Brilliant!

[Batman]

getting a bit nawty in here

[View From The Top]

getting a bit nawty in here

 

Jeff seems to think having a pop at me for going to prison is some sort of low blow, when the reality is I don't give a sh it and haven't for years, where as he continues to prove himself an utterly clueless muppet.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Oh f**k off, UJ.

 

Your problems are that you don't think before you speak and you don't know when to shut the fúck up, leading you into your frequent conflict with other posters as they easily eviscerate your ill-considered brain farts for the benefit of a viewing audience.

 

And hard work? Oh f**k off again, UJ. You forget that I know what you do. You tell people to do stuff, you report to management that stuff has been done (or not done). You are not working down a f**king coal mine, and are lucky enough to command a contract rate in an in-demand market.

 

You don't f**king know hard work. If you did, you'd be doing something else.

 

For a start, I'm not a PM, I'm a Senior BA, so i do have to work hard. Combine that with pretty much rebuilding my house at weekends means that I generally work 6 to 7 days a week.

 

And no, I've never worked down a mine, but I have spent a year working on a building site for a year after University, being paid not a lot.

 

Seems like you didn't do enough research on this one.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Jeff seems to think having a pop at me for going to prison is some sort of low blow, when the reality is I don't give a sh it and haven't for years, where as he continues to prove himself an utterly clueless muppet.

 

[Unbelievable Jeff]

No for choosing to be unemployed, if indeed it is a choice. Don't forget we had unemployment of around 3m at the time of the riots, should all these people have worked harder and then jobs would magically appear?

 

Face it, the working poor of Britain got royally screwed by the bankers and the anti regulation elites, and had every right to say we're going to make you notice us.

 

Not to mention a black and Asian community that was six times more likely to be stop and searched by police than if they were white. Seeing Mark Duggan killed by police was rightly or wrongly a flashpoint which caused an eruption of anger about the way the police acts in general

 

I'm not disagreeing with what you say, what I am saying is that attacking others in society, regardless of how ****ed off you are, should be condemned.

[Batman]

what do you actually do for work pap. Seeing as you deride another for not putting in a shift?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

what do you actually do for work pap. Seeing as you deride another for not putting in a shift?

 

He's a code monkey, back breaking work is that.

[View From The Top]

what do you actually do for work pap. Seeing as you deride another for not putting in a shift?

 

None of us put a shift in otherwise we wouldn't be on here during the day.

[pap]

For a start, I'm not a PM, I'm a Senior BA, so i do have to work hard. Combine that with pretty much rebuilding my house at weekends means that I generally work 6 to 7 days a week.

 

And no, I've never worked down a mine, but I have spent a year working on a building site for a year after University, being paid not a lot.

 

Seems like you didn't do enough research on this one.

 

Call yourself whatever you want, but your job is exactly as described. You talk to people. It isn't hard work, not even compared to the easy life I have (and I do have an easy life - I solve puzzles for cash). You will never be called on to solve or design something, and the most stressful day you'll ever have is waiting around powerlessly while you hope that skilled people, those that actually have put the hard work into a trade, save your bacon.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Call yourself whatever you want, but your job is exactly as described. You talk to people. It isn't hard work, not even compared to the easy life I have (and I do have an easy life - I solve puzzles for cash). You will never be called on to solve or design something, and the most stressful day you'll ever have is waiting around powerlessly while you hope that skilled people, those that actually have put the hard work into a trade, save your bacon.

Plus it's much easier to work hard and be motivated if you're being paid well, have a nice warm home to go to, eat well, do the odd leisure activity each week and refresh with a holiday or two each year

[Lord Duckhunter]

Well when I worked in sainsburys there were plenty of older people who had been working on checkouts for years and years, and it's doubtful whether they were earning anything near the living wage. In all honesty they weren't particularly intelligent so that's the most they could really hope for.

 

So what did working hard do them? Should they have scanned food quicker to progress in life? All they can do is carry on in their boring jobs while claiming in work benefits and enjoy a minimal life as best they can

 

Firstly if they're working hard I've no doubt Sainsburys will try and develop and promote them . It's much cheaper to promote from within than poach managers and supervisors from other retailers . Therefore the manager of your Sainsburys must be a complete and utter idiot to let hard workers " drift" and become zombie like .

 

Secondly , government policy , in particular tax credits & minimum wage is contributing to this situation by surpressing wages . Why should Sainsburys increase wages , they won't lose staff as the government tops up the working poors wages and they're not going to lose people to tesco because they've all benchmarked their wages against the minimum wage . Add to that the fact that thousands of EU citizens will sit on the checkouts for peanuts as peanuts are better than the wages they get at home, and you have a perfect storm . Sainsburys make massive profits , the wet political elite feel good about " helping " the poor and being good Europeans , no wonder the poor sod on the checkout is ****ed off .

[View From The Top]

Firstly if they're working hard I've no doubt Sainsburys will try and develop and promote them . It's much cheaper to promote from within than poach managers and supervisors from other retailers . Therefore the manager of your Sainsburys must be a complete and utter idiot to let hard workers " drift" and become zombie like .

 

Secondly , government policy , in particular tax credits & minimum wage is contributing to this situation by surpressing wages . Why should Sainsburys increase wages , they won't lose staff as the government tops up the working poors wages and they're not going to lose people to tesco because they've all benchmarked their wages against the minimum wage . Add to that the fact that thousands of EU citizens will sit on the checkouts for peanuts as peanuts are better than the wages they get at home, and you have a perfect storm . Sainsburys make massive profits , the wet political elite feel good about " helping " the poor and being good Europeans , no wonder the poor sod on the checkout is ****ed off .

 

I was agreeing with everything until your usual at immigrant rant.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Call yourself whatever you want, but your job is exactly as described. You talk to people. It isn't hard work, not even compared to the easy life I have (and I do have an easy life - I solve puzzles for cash). You will never be called on to solve or design something, and the most stressful day you'll ever have is waiting around powerlessly while you hope that skilled people, those that actually have put the hard work into a trade, save your bacon.

 

Lol, perhaps is should rephrase, I'm a Senior Business Systems Analyst, so I do design and come up with solutions.

 

Don't try and make yourself out to be some sort of ****ing martyr just because you effectively work on our say so. There are a lot of **** devs that make our lives hard.

 

Either way, that's not the point. The point was you getting all angry because you think I don't work hard. I have done, and I still do.

[hypochondriac]

Firstly if they're working hard I've no doubt Sainsburys will try and develop and promote them . It's much cheaper to promote from within than poach managers and supervisors from other retailers . Therefore the manager of your Sainsburys must be a complete and utter idiot to let hard workers " drift" and become zombie like .

 

Secondly , government policy , in particular tax credits & minimum wage is contributing to this situation by surpressing wages . Why should Sainsburys increase wages , they won't lose staff as the government tops up the working poors wages and they're not going to lose people to tesco because they've all benchmarked their wages against the minimum wage . Add to that the fact that thousands of EU citizens will sit on the checkouts for peanuts as peanuts are better than the wages they get at home, and you have a perfect storm . Sainsburys make massive profits , the wet political elite feel good about " helping " the poor and being good Europeans , no wonder the poor sod on the checkout is ****ed off .

 

Tbf there are about 6 or 7 people at the Shirley sainsburys who have been there at least a decade with seemingly no promotions.

[Batman]

Tbf there are about 6 or 7 people at the Shirley sainsburys who have been there at least a decade with seemingly no promotions.

 

maybe they do not want it? (maybe they do)

I worked at Tesco in Millbrook when I left school. There were staff there that were doing the same thing for some considerable time after. They were more than happy

[Bearsy]

Lol, perhaps is should rephrase, I'm a Senior Business Systems Analyst, so I do design and come up with solutions.

 

Don't try and make yourself out to be some sort of ****ing martyr just because you effectively work on our say so. There are a lot of **** devs that make our lives hard.

 

Either way, that's not the point. The point was you getting all angry because you think I don't work hard. I have done, and I still do.

 

Sounds like ur job is to be i.e. pap's boss, UJ. Can't be easy!

[Bearsy]

maybe they do not want it? (maybe they do)

I worked at Tesco in Millbrook when I left school. There were staff there that were doing the same thing for some considerable time after. They were more than happy

 

I worked at Waitrose. The Waitrose bros were loving it! They had some sort of system, at Waitrose, where all the employees are like shareholders, and you all get dividend of the profits at the end of the year, or something like that

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Sounds like ur job is to be i.e. pap's boss, UJ. Can't be easy!

 

And you know what, no ****, all devs are like him. Hard work trying to get them to do anything that the business actually wants, and not what they want/can be bothered to do.

[Coxford_lou]

If you're born/brought up on a council estate it's pretty darned hard to get out of it. Everything is conspiring against you in the same way that everything is conspiring for you if you are sent to a private school. Regardless of your abilities or talents. A lot of that is soft stuff - from understanding your own potential, to have goals and aspirations, to going to a school that can get the best out of you, to having confidence in a job interview, and not doubting yourself when the going gets tough. Some of it is more practical - not having money to take risks like more affluent classes can. Some of it is prejudice - employers only considering people from Oxbridge backgrounds. Working hard comes off the back of all of this, but on its own it's not enough.

 

Since Universities became less elitist, it has certainly open things up a bit, but only so far.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Firstly if they're working hard I've no doubt Sainsburys will try and develop and promote them . It's much cheaper to promote from within than poach managers and supervisors from other retailers . Therefore the manager of your Sainsburys must be a complete and utter idiot to let hard workers " drift" and become zombie like .

 

Secondly , government policy , in particular tax credits & minimum wage is contributing to this situation by surpressing wages . Why should Sainsburys increase wages , they won't lose staff as the government tops up the working poors wages and they're not going to lose people to tesco because they've all benchmarked their wages against the minimum wage . Add to that the fact that thousands of EU citizens will sit on the checkouts for peanuts as peanuts are better than the wages they get at home, and you have a perfect storm . Sainsburys make massive profits , the wet political elite feel good about " helping " the poor and being good Europeans , no wonder the poor sod on the checkout is ****ed off .

 

Seriously dude, the people I'm talking about are neither intelligent enough or socially skilled enough for a management role. You just don't want to believe otherwise because it doesn't fit your worldview.

 

We've talked about the minimum wage before and I showed you stats that demonstrate how it has increased wages at the bottom, but you ignored them. The way forward is to increase it further, not get rid of it and hope that wages will miraculously rise.

 

I will throw you a bone though and say that I've changed my view on immigration, having read some things I do think freedom of movement is suppressing wages:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/24/open-borders-fair-wages-left-mass-immigration-britain-economy

 

Tax credits are tricky because they did have an important effect on child poverty under labour, but in the long run they probably do disincentivise employers to pay decent wages

[Batman]

surely, quoting from the Guardian hardly makes anything 'fact'....like quoting from the Mail

[Ex Lion Tamer]

maybe they do not want it? (maybe they do)

I worked at Tesco in Millbrook when I left school. There were staff there that were doing the same thing for some considerable time after. They were more than happy

 

Why abolish slavery, they like it, out there singing songs in the fields!

[Unbelievable Jeff]

If you're born/brought up on a council estate it's pretty darned hard to get out of it. Everything is conspiring against you in the same way that everything is conspiring for you if you are sent to a private school. Regardless of your abilities or talents. A lot of that is soft stuff - from understanding your own potential, to have goals and aspirations, to going to a school that can get the best out of you, to having confidence in a job interview, and not doubting yourself when the going gets tough. Some of it is more practical - not having money to take risks like more affluent classes can. Some of it is prejudice - employers only considering people from Oxbridge backgrounds. Working hard comes off the back of all of this, but on its own it's not enough.

 

Since Universities became less elitist, it has certainly open things up a bit, but only so far.

 

Lou, my Dad had an incredibly poor upbringing in Lewisham in a council flat, and my Mum in a council house in Worksop. The reason I am like what I am is because they told me never to accept excuses for someone not getting themselves out of poverty. So i don't.

[Batman]

Why abolish slavery, they like it, out there singing songs in the fields!

 

good point, well made lol

Edited 10 April, 2015 by Batman

[Bearsy]

And you know what, no ****, all devs are like him. Hard work trying to get them to do anything that the business actually wants, and not what they want/can be bothered to do.

 

it must be v.boring for i.e. pap to be sitting at desk typing 0s and 1s all day. V.monotonous. If all ur doing is typing 0-1-0-1-1-1-0-1-1-0-0-0-1 all day to a plan designed by i.e. UJ, it's only matter of time before you go bit mental and start throwing in the odd 2 or whatever. We must make Allowances

[Bearsy]

If you're born/brought up on a council estate it's pretty darned hard to get out of it.

 

Agree, even if you don't pay ur rent + spend all ur rent money on i.e. fags + lottery tickets, it is still v.difficult to actually get evicted from a council house.

[pap]

Lol, perhaps is should rephrase, I'm a Senior Business Systems Analyst, so I do design and come up with solutions.

 

Don't try and make yourself out to be some sort of ****ing martyr just because you effectively work on our say so. There are a lot of **** devs that make our lives hard.

 

Either way, that's not the point. The point was you getting all angry because you think I don't work hard. I have done, and I still do.

 

You wouldn't eat without the likes of me, parasite.

 

People who stick with hard work, that is

[saint si]

And you know what, no ****, all devs are like him. Hard work trying to get them to do anything that the business actually wants, and not what they want/can be bothered to do.

 

If you can't get what you want from the devs, then you should smash their stuff up.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Lou, my Dad had an incredibly poor upbringing in Lewisham in a council flat, and my Mum in a council house in Worksop. The reason I am like what I am is because they told me never to accept excuses for someone not getting themselves out of poverty. So i don't.

But you were lucky you had parents who instilled a work ethic in you.

 

Some of the current problems in the UK black community stem from the fact that the Windrush immigrants were predominantly young men who left home young, didn't have adequate guidance about how to live their lives and therefore didn't pass it on to their kids

[buctootim]

If you're born/brought up on a council estate it's pretty darned hard to get out of it. Everything is conspiring against you in the same way that everything is conspiring for you if you are sent to a private school. Regardless of your abilities or talents. A lot of that is soft stuff - from understanding your own potential, to have goals and aspirations, to going to a school that can get the best out of you, to having confidence in a job interview, and not doubting yourself when the going gets tough. Some of it is more practical - not having money to take risks like more affluent classes can. Some of it is prejudice - employers only considering people from Oxbridge backgrounds. Working hard comes off the back of all of this, but on its own it's not enough.

 

Since Universities became less elitist, it has certainly open things up a bit, but only so far.

 

Absolutely this. Children form their measure of their potential and expectations of what is possible against those around them. Success in life has far far more to do with whether your peers are old Etonians or part time workers on minimum wage than how bright, driven and hard working you are.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

surely, quoting from the Guardian hardly makes anything 'fact'....like quoting from the Mail

Is that to me? I just said it helped persuade me. The article is actually critical of the Guardian's reporting on immigration, something I don't think the Mail would allow about itself

[SuperMikey]

This thread is a bit like that part Apocalypse Now after Morpheus gets shot on the boat and everyone's bickering with each other.