will lowe back his dutch dream.....

[lordswoodsaints]

....in the january transfer market?

 

if he really wants them to succeed like many have stated, he should back JP to give him the best chance possible.

 

some have stated that we are skint and we will have to sell to buy,some have speculated that surman and lallana will be the meat on offer,this is ok as long as they are replaced with at least as good if not better or we can get 3 or 4 decent players for the price of 2.

 

obviously if we are skint this isnt going to happen,but how can lowe then back his manager?........he cant,all he can offer is the pick of the academy which tbh isnt really any backing at all.

 

personally i think the 'dutch dream' has run its course,perhaps in a different time with a bit of money it could have worked out but as it stands it hasnt.

what have we got out of the experience?....nothing really apart from a couple of decent young players who have got their chance a lot sooner than they expected and the confirmation that 'you win nothing with kids'.

 

RUPERT LOWE AND MICHAEL WILDE,DIG DEEP AND BACK YOUR MEN TO SUCCEED OR ARRANGE AN ALTERNATIVE THAT WILL.

[paulwantsapint]

Lowe will do **** all to back Jan apart from use idea that words speak louder than actions( no not visa versa )

[benjii]

RUPERT LOWE AND MICHAEL WILDE,DIG DEEP

 

[SaintRobbie]

ARRANGE AN ALTERNATIVE THAT WILL.

 

The last bit of what he said.

[Saint Billy]

Here's the rub,

 

In the likelyhood that we sell Surman and Lallana, there is no guarantee that any of the funds will be used to replace these players, and if we do, in order to keep hold of some of the proceeds to aid our financial woes, only a proportion of the sell will be made available. This in affect means that what we buy in will not be as good as what we sold.

 

Outcome?

 

Even worse than we are now!

[Wade Garrett]

I'm not interested in an alternative manager. Who will pick him, the same muppets who lumbered us with what we have already got.

 

I would be happy with an alternative manager if we had alternative owners and an alternative board.

 

To think that we would plough any transfer revenue back into the market is way off the mark. Why sell in the first place if this was the case?

[sadoldgit]

Dutch dream? I thought it was a pragmatic decsion based on our financial position and the need to bring on the younger players?

[lordswoodsaints]

Here's the rub,

 

In the likelyhood that we sell Surman and Lallana, there is no guarantee that any of the funds will be used to replace these players, and if we do, in order to keep hold of some of the proceeds to aid our financial woes, only a proportion of the sell will be made available. This in affect means that what we buy in will not be as good as what we sold.

 

Outcome?

 

Even worse than we are now!

 

this is what i have been saying,either back what we have got or speculate to accumulate,obviously not to the degree that burley was allowed to speculate but at a decent,manageable level that will give us a fighting chance of staying up.

if lowe is unable to do this then he should come out and say so.he should say that 'we are going to sell players to pay the bills,there will be no money available to buy players' it might not be what we want to hear but at least we will know where we stand.

[lordswoodsaints]

I'm not interested in an alternative manager. Who will pick him, the same muppets who lumbered us with what we have already got.

 

I would be happy with an alternative manager if we had alternative owners and an alternative board.

 

To think that we would plough any transfer revenue back into the market is way off the mark. Why sell in the first place if this was the case?

 

this would be the ideal scenario but removing lowe will take too long and we havnt got that sort of time on our hands,by the time we get lowe out and replaced with an alternative we could already be relegated.we need an injection of inspiration,confidence and discipline that a new manager could bring,this might not be a long term view but it could be the impetous we need to survive.

lowe and wildes days are numbered anyway imo,give them enough rope and they will eventually hang themselves.the priority has to be to maintain our present status in the championship.

[VectisSaint]

I'm not interested in an alternative manager. Who will pick him, the same muppets who lumbered us with what we have already got.

 

I would be happy with an alternative manager if we had alternative owners and an alternative board.

 

To think that we would plough any transfer revenue back into the market is way off the mark. Why sell in the first place if this was the case?

Why, even Lowe has occassionally chosen a decent manager, though it may be more by luck than judgement. Let me list all the good ones he has selected:

Strachan, hmmm

Maybe you're right [Actually I would have had Sturrock back at this level like a shot, he is only crap in the PL]. I guess Hoddle, no lets not go there.

[Dalek2003]

The most important thing is to stave off aministration. If we go down to League 1 so be it. Administration must be avoided.

When we are in League 1 , get in Glenn Hoddle to build a team and get us up the leagues like he did at Swindon.

[Give it to Ron]

Dutch dream? I thought it was a pragmatic decsion based on our financial position and the need to bring on the younger players?

 

Only for those that are too blind and blinkered that won't or don't want to see the alternatives.

[Sundance Beast]

....in the january transfer market?

 

if he really wants them to succeed like many have stated, he should back JP to give him the best chance possible.

 

some have stated that we are skint and we will have to sell to buy,some have speculated that surman and lallana will be the meat on offer,this is ok as long as they are replaced with at least as good if not better or we can get 3 or 4 decent players for the price of 2.

 

obviously if we are skint this isnt going to happen,but how can lowe then back his manager?........he cant,all he can offer is the pick of the academy which tbh isnt really any backing at all.

 

personally i think the 'dutch dream' has run its course,perhaps in a different time with a bit of money it could have worked out but as it stands it hasnt.

what have we got out of the experience?....nothing really apart from a couple of decent young players who have got their chance a lot sooner than they expected and the confirmation that 'you win nothing with kids'.

 

RUPERT LOWE AND MICHAEL WILDE,DIG DEEP AND BACK YOUR MEN TO SUCCEED OR ARRANGE AN ALTERNATIVE THAT WILL.

 

Bottom line LS is that Lowe will be damned if he backs his manager and damned if he doesn't. If he backs him those hell bent on undermining the club will say he is too arrogant to bring a stop to a failed experiment that he initiated in good faith, to reduce costs and do something a bit different to get the best out of the club's principal resorce - the academy. If he sacks JP and replaces him with a more traditional manager and things don't chnage for the better the old manager merry go round argument will come out.

 

We don't have the revenue to make major changes and its a pity we are not like a club like Derby who despite all their failings in the past 18 months are still pulling in avg. gates of 27-28k and whose fans had a silent protest last weekend more powerful I would suggest because of their numbers as they have stayed loyal than fan's voting with their feet or threatening boycotts which unfortunatley is the way of the spoilt Saints fan. The latter action just entrenches those not to succumb to what essentially boils down to some form of moral blackmail but an action very ill-judged at best. Would you dig deep when you have idiots like Chorley showing some of his old thuggery towards you and who appears to have the support at least of the old school Saints fan who's motives for attending games in the 70's and 80' weren't the same as they are today.

 

So with no money available and no way at the moment of increasing gate revenue we only have the option of players sales to boost the squad but i would suggest the majority of that cash will need to be retained or used to reduce debt to offset a decline in ticketing revenue as a result of the general economic malaise (which does not appear to have filtered through to clubs like Norwich and Derby) and the fickle Saints fan spolit by 27 years of top flight action and still finding it difficult to adjust and buy into a rebuilding plan that will take years and not months to achieve.

 

I was away for the Plymouth game but I would agree that the defeat to Notts Forest was us hitting bottom not unike our 5-0 defeat to Hull last season. However, either side a poor run we have two excellent performances to hang our hats of hope upon. Sunday's game, clearly showed that whilst Jan can work with and develop the younger players his game plans to match our opponents is clearly lacking and I wonder if anyone is actually helping him on how to deal with the threat of the opposition. I also think because of his work with the younger players he may be slightly transfixed with what they can deliver on the training pitch over what they are likely to deliver in reality, Gobern and Smith being an obvious example. Gobern had already shown IMO, this season that he was not ready for the step up to being selected for the 1st 11 and we were lucky to get away with his selection on Sunday.

 

JP needs some help and advice and I for one don't buy into the thought that Lowe picks or even influences the team in the same way he would not expect JP or Wotte to influence or advise on how he should manage our creditors. The fact remains though that JP has made some strange even Burleyesque substitutions and starting line up selections and needs urgent help. Euell and BWP should not have been on the bench on Sunday with Smith (hopeless) and Gobern (not ready) in the starting 11. Perhaps by selecting Gobern, JP felt he was replacing one midfielder with another who can't tackle and passess 90% of all balls to his side or behind. On that point it proved that Surman is not as important to this team as we may like to think and Lallana even less so, as he is just another player with potential and we adorn him with the title of one of our best players. On the strength of his performances alone he is not.

 

I would love to see the back of Skacel and I thought Mills was actually a better LB when I have seen him play. Skacel is lazy, switches off during games and his dead ball delivery for a supposed expert is woeful. His performance against Forest i think in better times would have been his last and perhaps our only hope is to get him loaned out like last year and get some more committed experienced loanees in to bolster the team. On that point we need to loan in players from the PL or the CCC and not from the clubs in the lower leagues - Smith being a startling case in point.

 

So we keep JP and get him some better support (if he is already getting this then he needs to start listening). We sell Surman and Lallana to the highest bidder and realistically we loan out Skacel but prefer to sell. We then do all we can to retain the services of Cork, Davies and BWP and look to acquire a LB (our back 4 looked good on Sunday with the exception of the supposedly most experienced player), a strong CM with pace and ability to score from his position and another attacking option to pressurise and motivate McGoldrick who despite his goal on Sunday the jury is still very much out on the worthiness of his overall contribution.

 

Therefore, do nothing is not an option and Lowe needs to go beyond merely just supporting JP as he needs help IMO especially with team selection and that may avoid some strange subs. Lowe is definitely in a Catch 22 situation but one that has as much to do with the fans volatility towards him than any poor decision making he has made the reasons behind which none of us are really party to. JP may be a mistake but who is to say given the change in playing resources Pearson would have fared any better? JP appears to be too focused on his youth options overlooking the more experienced players and Pearson focussed on the old pros and bought more of that type in overlooking the youth option. Reality, is if we had more money neither would have been first choice and now i suspect we have less money available given forecasted revenues vs actual, so all we can do is tweak what we have and we have enough IMO to stay up which was always the goal, that and avoid administration.

 

Did Crouch and McMenemy throw any money in to support the cause? Did Crouch offer but only in the form of a loan? Hardly going out on a limb is it? This club needs to be self sufficient for its long term survival and so perhaps we all have to start to dig deep, in return for 90 mins of football and supporting your team.

[Dalek2003]

Sundance speaks a lot of sense. Stick with JP until the end of the season, if he fails try and persuade Glenn Hoddle to start the rebuild in League 1 09/10

[70's Mike]

Bottom line LS is that Lowe will be damned if he backs his manager and damned if he doesn't. If he backs him those hell bent on undermining the club will say he is too arrogant to bring a stop to a failed experiment that he initiated in good faith, to reduce costs and do something a bit different to get the best out of the club's principal resorce - the academy. If he sacks JP and replaces him with a more traditional manager and things don't chnage for the better the old manager merry go round argument will come out.

 

We don't have the revenue to make major changes and its a pity we are not like a club like Derby who despite all their failings in the past 18 months are still pulling in avg. gates of 27-28k and whose fans had a silent protest last weekend more powerful I would suggest because of their numbers as they have stayed loyal than fan's voting with their feet or threatening boycotts which unfortunatley is the way of the spoilt Saints fan. The latter action just entrenches those not to succumb to what essentially boils down to some form of moral blackmail but an action very ill-judged at best. Would you dig deep when you have idiots like Chorley showing some of his old thuggery towards you and who appears to have the support at least of the old school Saints fan who's motives for attending games in the 70's and 80' weren't the same as they are today.

 

So with no money available and no way at the moment of increasing gate revenue we only have the option of players sales to boost the squad but i would suggest the majority of that cash will need to be retained or used to reduce debt to offset a decline in ticketing revenue as a result of the general economic malaise (which does not appear to have filtered through to clubs like Norwich and Derby) and the fickle Saints fan spolit by 27 years of top flight action and still finding it difficult to adjust and buy into a rebuilding plan that will take years and not months to achieve.

 

I was away for the Plymouth game but I would agree that the defeat to Notts Forest was us hitting bottom not unike our 5-0 defeat to Hull last season. However, either side a poor run we have two excellent performances to hang our hats of hope upon. Sunday's game, clearly showed that whilst Jan can work with and develop the younger players his game plans to match our opponents is clearly lacking and I wonder if anyone is actually helping him on how to deal with the threat of the opposition. I also think because of his work with the younger players he may be slightly transfixed with what they can deliver on the training pitch over what they are likely to deliver in reality, Gobern and Smith being an obvious example. Gobern had already shown IMO, this season that he was not ready for the step up to being selected for the 1st 11 and we were lucky to get away with his selection on Sunday.

 

JP needs some help and advice and I for one don't buy into the thought that Lowe picks or even influences the team in the same way he would not expect JP or Wotte to influence or advise on how he should manage our creditors. The fact remains though that JP has made some strange even Burleyesque substitutions and starting line up selections and needs urgent help. Euell and BWP should not have been on the bench on Sunday with Smith (hopeless) and Gobern (not ready) in the starting 11. Perhaps by selecting Gobern, JP felt he was replacing one midfielder with another who can't tackle and passess 90% of all balls to his side or behind. On that point it proved that Surman is not as important to this team as we may like to think and Lallana even less so, as he is just another player with potential and we adorn him with the title of one of our best players. On the strength of his performances alone he is not.

 

I would love to see the back of Skacel and I thought Mills was actually a better LB when I have seen him play. Skacel is lazy, switches off during games and his dead ball delivery for a supposed expert is woeful. His performance against Forest i think in better times would have been his last and perhaps our only hope is to get him loaned out like last year and get some more committed experienced loanees in to bolster the team. On that point we need to loan in players from the PL or the CCC and not from the clubs in the lower leagues - Smith being a startling case in point.

 

So we keep JP and get him some better support (if he is already getting this then he needs to start listening). We sell Surman and Lallana to the highest bidder and realistically we loan out Skacel but prefer to sell. We then do all we can to retain the services of Cork, Davies and BWP and look to acquire a LB (our back 4 looked good on Sunday with the exception of the supposedly most experienced player), a strong CM with pace and ability to score from his position and another attacking option to pressurise and motivate McGoldrick who despite his goal on Sunday the jury is still very much out on the worthiness of his overall contribution.

 

Therefore, do nothing is not an option and Lowe needs to go beyond merely just supporting JP as he needs help IMO especially with team selection and that may avoid some strange subs. Lowe is definitely in a Catch 22 situation but one that has as much to do with the fans volatility towards him than any poor decision making he has made the reasons behind which none of us are really party to. JP may be a mistake but who is to say given the change in playing resources Pearson would have fared any better? JP appears to be too focused on his youth options overlooking the more experienced players and Pearson focussed on the old pros and bought more of that type in overlooking the youth option. Reality, is if we had more money neither would have been first choice and now i suspect we have less money available given forecasted revenues vs actual, so all we can do is tweak what we have and we have enough IMO to stay up which was always the goal, that and avoid administration.

 

Did Crouch and McMenemy throw any money in to support the cause? Did Crouch offer but only in the form of a loan? Hardly going out on a limb is it? This club needs to be self sufficient for its long term survival and so perhaps we all have to start to dig deep, in return for 90 mins of football and supporting your team.

 

 

bit concerned by second to last paragraph , first sentence.

are you proposing Rupert helps with team selection and picking subs

[lordswoodsaints]

Bottom line LS is that Lowe will be damned if he backs his manager and damned if he doesn't. If he backs him those hell bent on undermining the club will say he is too arrogant to bring a stop to a failed experiment that he initiated in good faith, to reduce costs and do something a bit different to get the best out of the club's principal resorce - the academy. If he sacks JP and replaces him with a more traditional manager and things don't chnage for the better the old manager merry go round argument will come out.

 

We don't have the revenue to make major changes and its a pity we are not like a club like Derby who despite all their failings in the past 18 months are still pulling in avg. gates of 27-28k and whose fans had a silent protest last weekend more powerful I would suggest because of their numbers as they have stayed loyal than fan's voting with their feet or threatening boycotts which unfortunatley is the way of the spoilt Saints fan. The latter action just entrenches those not to succumb to what essentially boils down to some form of moral blackmail but an action very ill-judged at best. Would you dig deep when you have idiots like Chorley showing some of his old thuggery towards you and who appears to have the support at least of the old school Saints fan who's motives for attending games in the 70's and 80' weren't the same as they are today.

 

So with no money available and no way at the moment of increasing gate revenue we only have the option of players sales to boost the squad but i would suggest the majority of that cash will need to be retained or used to reduce debt to offset a decline in ticketing revenue as a result of the general economic malaise (which does not appear to have filtered through to clubs like Norwich and Derby) and the fickle Saints fan spolit by 27 years of top flight action and still finding it difficult to adjust and buy into a rebuilding plan that will take years and not months to achieve.

 

I was away for the Plymouth game but I would agree that the defeat to Notts Forest was us hitting bottom not unike our 5-0 defeat to Hull last season. However, either side a poor run we have two excellent performances to hang our hats of hope upon. Sunday's game, clearly showed that whilst Jan can work with and develop the younger players his game plans to match our opponents is clearly lacking and I wonder if anyone is actually helping him on how to deal with the threat of the opposition. I also think because of his work with the younger players he may be slightly transfixed with what they can deliver on the training pitch over what they are likely to deliver in reality, Gobern and Smith being an obvious example. Gobern had already shown IMO, this season that he was not ready for the step up to being selected for the 1st 11 and we were lucky to get away with his selection on Sunday.

 

JP needs some help and advice and I for one don't buy into the thought that Lowe picks or even influences the team in the same way he would not expect JP or Wotte to influence or advise on how he should manage our creditors. The fact remains though that JP has made some strange even Burleyesque substitutions and starting line up selections and needs urgent help. Euell and BWP should not have been on the bench on Sunday with Smith (hopeless) and Gobern (not ready) in the starting 11. Perhaps by selecting Gobern, JP felt he was replacing one midfielder with another who can't tackle and passess 90% of all balls to his side or behind. On that point it proved that Surman is not as important to this team as we may like to think and Lallana even less so, as he is just another player with potential and we adorn him with the title of one of our best players. On the strength of his performances alone he is not.

 

I would love to see the back of Skacel and I thought Mills was actually a better LB when I have seen him play. Skacel is lazy, switches off during games and his dead ball delivery for a supposed expert is woeful. His performance against Forest i think in better times would have been his last and perhaps our only hope is to get him loaned out like last year and get some more committed experienced loanees in to bolster the team. On that point we need to loan in players from the PL or the CCC and not from the clubs in the lower leagues - Smith being a startling case in point.

 

So we keep JP and get him some better support (if he is already getting this then he needs to start listening). We sell Surman and Lallana to the highest bidder and realistically we loan out Skacel but prefer to sell. We then do all we can to retain the services of Cork, Davies and BWP and look to acquire a LB (our back 4 looked good on Sunday with the exception of the supposedly most experienced player), a strong CM with pace and ability to score from his position and another attacking option to pressurise and motivate McGoldrick who despite his goal on Sunday the jury is still very much out on the worthiness of his overall contribution.

 

Therefore, do nothing is not an option and Lowe needs to go beyond merely just supporting JP as he needs help IMO especially with team selection and that may avoid some strange subs. Lowe is definitely in a Catch 22 situation but one that has as much to do with the fans volatility towards him than any poor decision making he has made the reasons behind which none of us are really party to. JP may be a mistake but who is to say given the change in playing resources Pearson would have fared any better? JP appears to be too focused on his youth options overlooking the more experienced players and Pearson focussed on the old pros and bought more of that type in overlooking the youth option. Reality, is if we had more money neither would have been first choice and now i suspect we have less money available given forecasted revenues vs actual, so all we can do is tweak what we have and we have enough IMO to stay up which was always the goal, that and avoid administration.

 

Did Crouch and McMenemy throw any money in to support the cause? Did Crouch offer but only in the form of a loan? Hardly going out on a limb is it? This club needs to be self sufficient for its long term survival and so perhaps we all have to start to dig deep, in return for 90 mins of football and supporting your team.

 

 

good post SB and i think lowe will have to do something,just sitting back and doing nothing will end in tears.either he has to back JP and give him as much help as needed or admit defeat and start again.

[Sundance Beast]

bit concerned by second to last paragraph , first sentence.

are you proposing Rupert helps with team selection and picking subs

 

Not at all Mike - see para 5 first sentence.

 

JP I believe is a good coach and simply his experience of coming through the Dutch process which is arguably the benchmark for the ROW in terms of nuturing player talent adds kudos to his experience. Clearly, what JP is lacking is not so much his understanding of the English game (afterall we all play to the same rules alledgedly) but an understanding of our opponents and I think we have lost as many points through the manager's naiveity as we have through the player's inexperience.

 

There must be an experienced person within the club who knows the CCC well and can advise JP accordingly. This is a role for a football person with current experience who can work as an an advisor to JP but not above him. The likes of Lowe, McMenemy and any other Saints pundit need not apply.

 

Would it be to radical or foolhardy to suggest we pay someone like Iain Dowie a small consultancy fee to provide JP a report on our opponents for each game until the end of the season and suggestions on how we may best select from our playing resources to address obvious threats/weaknesses of our opponents. If we can all get through to the end of the season with our CCC status intact and with the current management structure then we can push on next year all the better for the experience but JP does need some experienced and current advice IMO in the short term.

[Give it to Ron]

But SB wasnt that why they bought Gorre in as he had experience of the English league?

 

I think the short term idea is worth a go as JP is way out of his depth - but what a waste of money as what is Wotte doing for his money ?

[70's Mike]

Not at all Mike - see para 5 first sentence.

 

JP I believe is a good coach and simply his experience of coming through the Dutch process which is arguably the benchmark for the ROW in terms of nuturing player talent adds kudos to his experience. Clearly, what JP is lacking is not so much his understanding of the English game (afterall we all play to the same rules alledgedly) but an understanding of our opponents and I think we have lost as many points through the manager's naiveity as we have through the player's inexperience.

 

There must be an experienced person within the club who knows the CCC well and can advise JP accordingly. This is a role for a football person with current experience who can work as an an advisor to JP but not above him. The likes of Lowe, McMenemy and any other Saints pundit need not apply.

 

Would it be to radical or foolhardy to suggest we pay someone like Iain Dowie a small consultancy fee to provide JP a report on our opponents for each game until the end of the season and suggestions on how we may best select from our playing resources to address obvious threats/weaknesses of our opponents. If we can all get through to the end of the season with our CCC status intact and with the current management structure then we can push on next year all the better for the experience but JP does need some experienced and current advice IMO in the short term.

 

 

OK

Why not employ Benali on match days ?

 

I do not feel there is anyone left at SMS with CCC experience.

[lordswoodsaints]

OK

Why not employ Benali on match days ?

 

I do not feel there is anyone left at SMS with CCC experience.

 

why not hoddle?,it seems he is busy doing his own thing at the moment but i sure he would be available on a part time basis.lowe and hoddle obviously get on and hoddle isnt shy working with the youngsters ,also hoddle likes the european way and i think he would be the ideal person to offer his experience to JP.

[SaintRobbie]

Bottom line LS is that Lowe will be damned if he backs his manager and damned if he doesn't.

 

That Sundance is the reason Mrs Lowe was right to recommend he didnt return in the first place.

 

That Sundance is the reason Lowe should leave the Club for good.

 

He offers nothing other than division, ineptitude, failure and relegation. A hated man, causing more damage by his very presence than any good he may be doing behind the scenes.

[um pahars]

suggestions on how we may best select from our playing resources to address obvious threats/weaknesses of our opponents.

 

But one of my problems with Jan is his inability (or refusal) to try and play any other way either for part of a match, or from the off. A few weeks back he suggested that the players cannot play another way, which is rather crass and quite frankly rather stubborn and certainly not flexible.

 

For this to work, Jan would have to accept that some times there are different ways in which we may have to play, otherwise whoever comes in to work/help him would be just wasting their breath.

 

Jan has to wake up and realise that playing the same formation/strategy week in, week out is not working.

 

It's a bit like the first steps to recovery for an addict, in that one of the biggest steps is actually admit you have an addiction and things aren't rosey.

 

Our first problem we have to overcome is the fact that the current manager and chairman don't believe we have a problem, that the football is wonderful and things will be alright in the end. That mentality has to change PDQ if we are to recover.

[SaintRobbie]

But one of my problems with Jan is his inability (or refusal) to try and play any other way either for part of a match, or from the off. A few weeks back he suggested that the players cannot play another way, which is rather crass and quite frankly rather stubborn and certainly not flexible.

 

For this to work, Jan would have to accept that some times there are different ways in which we may have to play, otherwise whoever comes in to work/help him would be just wasting their breath.

 

Jan has to wake up and realise that playing the same formation/strategy week in, week out is not working.

 

It's a bit like the first steps to recovery for an addict, in that one of the biggest steps is actually admit you have an addiction and things aren't rosey.

 

Our first problem we have to overcome is the fact that the current manager and chairman don't believe we have a problem, that the football is wonderful and things will be alright in the end. That mentality has to change PDQ if we are to recover.

 

Agree completely. Interestingly though, I dont think Lowe has been in this position before and not sacked the manager. He is now in uncharted Lowe territory, despite the fact that - for once - just about everyone else realises JP is out of his comfort zone and failing.

 

Interesting.

[Sundance Beast]

But one of my problems with Jan is his inability (or refusal) to try and play any other way either for part of a match, or from the off. A few weeks back he suggested that the players cannot play another way, which is rather crass and quite frankly rather stubborn and certainly not flexible.

 

For this to work, Jan would have to accept that some times there are different ways in which we may have to play, otherwise whoever comes in to work/help him would be just wasting their breath.

 

Jan has to wake up and realise that playing the same formation/strategy week in, week out is not working.

 

It's a bit like the first steps to recovery for an addict, in that one of the biggest steps is actually admit you have an addiction and things aren't rosey.

 

Our first problem we have to overcome is the fact that the current manager and chairman don't believe we have a problem, that the football is wonderful and things will be alright in the end. That mentality has to change PDQ if we are to recover.

 

I agree with you UP except your inference it's a mentality issue. JP does not strike me as either stubborn or crasse but his language shortcomings do not do him any favours and whilst his approach to team selection can be baffling I have no doubt he is a good coach. It wasn't so long ago we were criticising Burley for being neither. JP is clearly working hard although his inexperience of our opponents and the need to change approach for some games is beginning to show through - at times quite badly.

 

Lowe is many things but he is isn't thick and will like the rest of us be well aware of an impending crisis if nothing is done. The last thing I want him to do is knee jerk and start making wholesale changes when they aren't necessarily needed and I don't agree that Lowe or JP are unaware we have a problem and I don't doubt discussions are going ahead to agree the best way to approach the rest of the season.

 

Things do need to change PDQ, but that change can be quite subtle and its the approach not the mentality as I'm convinced the mentality exists that both want the best for the club as they have a professional stake in the club being a success and of course a financial one for Lowe.

 

Give It To Ron raises a good question with regard to Gorre. I don't know the reasoning behind his appointment but if its along the lines I am suggesting that an Iain Dowie type could perform then you would have to say he has failed in his mandate and be dealt with accordingly. We don't need employees we just need to pay a fee to a freelance professional.

 

Benali 'on the bench' would not fit the criteria (JP just as well stand on the touchline with a pit bull) and we ideally need JP to be advised by an ex-player/manager with very recent experience and still actively involved in the game that their knowledge is current and relevent. Dowie as a consultant until the end of the season fits the bill perfectly.

[Whitey Grandad]

Lowe is many things but he is isn't thick and will like the rest of us be well aware of an impending crisis if nothing is done. The last thing I want him to do is knee jerk and start making wholesale changes when they aren't necessarily needed and I don't agree that Lowe or JP are unaware we have a problem and I don't doubt discussions are going ahead to agree the best way to approach the rest of the season.

I think it's past that, it's already pended.

[badgerx16]

It might just be the time of year, but I actually agree with a lot of what SB says on this thread.

My 'twist' on this is that JP, if we accept his qualities as a coach for young players, still urgently needs some help from somebody experienced in the English game, maybe Dowie is a good call on this - we have got to the point where 'pretty' has to go out the window, effective is far more imperative.

As for Rupert, if he won't go of his own accord, and we cannot get rid of him ( without illegal violence ), then the least he can do is take a far less prominent and vociferous role on match days - and for heaven's sake stay off the touchline. ( Though I am not sure his ego will allow it ).

[View From The Top]

Dutch dream? I thought it was a pragmatic decsion based on our financial position and the need to bring on the younger players?

 

Has Rupert removed his c*ck from your @rse yet?

[um pahars]

I agree with you UP except your inference it's a mentality issue. JP does not strike me as either stubborn or crasse but his language shortcomings do not do him any favours and whilst his approach to team selection can be baffling I have no doubt he is a good coach.

 

I also don' think it's a mentality issue, I just don't think he has the range of attributes to be successful in this division.

 

I fail to understand his rationale of persevering with a system that is not working and his inability to either want, or be able, to change the formation we play.

 

His comments that the players can play no other way is a real concern for me as I fail to see how it can be justified in any shape or form.

 

He may well be a good coach, but this season we were crying out for a good manager!!!!!

 

Lowe is many things but he is isn't thick and will like the rest of us be well aware of an impending crisis if nothing is done. The last thing I want him to do is knee jerk and start making wholesale changes when they aren't necessarily needed and I don't agree that Lowe or JP are unaware we have a problem and I don't doubt discussions are going ahead to agree the best way to approach the rest of the season.

 

I'm not so sure!!!!!

 

His comments in the Annual Report, the repeats at the AGM and his conversations with a number of people are extremely worrying.

 

Whilst it could be dismissed as putting a brave face on it and talking us up, I do have very grave concerns that Lowe actually believes that we are playing well, and all that is required to make this work is some more time!!!!!

 

As has been the problem for some time with this Club, I fear ego's are in play here and rather than accept things need to change (which would be a tacit acceptance of failure) I fear that those in power will blunder on in the vain hope that somehow this will come off.

 

Even if I accept your argument that Lowe will be thinking about making changes, then although I accept he is not an idiot, I have my doubts that he will be able to make the right decision to get us out of this hole.

 

After all, it was his selection of Poortvliet and his championing of this "Revolutionary Coaching Set Up" that has helped to create the mess we now find ourselves in!

[eurosaint]

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/articles/article.php?page_id=11152

 

There is a quote in this article from JP which says :

"As far as I know, we want to keep Jack"

Is this a Freudian slip or does he really not know ?????

[Give it to Ron]

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/articles/article.php?page_id=11152

 

There is a quote in this article from JP which says :

"As far as I know, we want to keep Jack"

Is this a Freudian slip or does he really not know ?????

 

In the after match interview the other day he was asked the question.

The answer was along the lines of we want to keep him but I have no idea what is happening....

[benjii]

Not at all Mike - see para 5 first sentence.

 

JP I believe is a good coach and simply his experience of coming through the Dutch process which is arguably the benchmark for the ROW in terms of nuturing player talent adds kudos to his experience. Clearly, what JP is lacking is not so much his understanding of the English game (afterall we all play to the same rules alledgedly) but an understanding of our opponents and I think we have lost as many points through the manager's naiveity as we have through the player's inexperience.

 

There must be an experienced person within the club who knows the CCC well and can advise JP accordingly. This is a role for a football person with current experience who can work as an an advisor to JP but not above him. The likes of Lowe, McMenemy and any other Saints pundit need not apply.

 

Would it be to radical or foolhardy to suggest we pay someone like Iain Dowie a small consultancy fee to provide JP a report on our opponents for each game until the end of the season and suggestions on how we may best select from our playing resources to address obvious threats/weaknesses of our opponents. If we can all get through to the end of the season with our CCC status intact and with the current management structure then we can push on next year all the better for the experience but JP does need some experienced and current advice IMO in the short term.

 

I've never quite understood this line of thinking.

 

They've won the world cup a grand total of zero times. Th entire argument seems to be based around Ajax having once won the European Cup with a young team.

 

IMO the best way of nurturing young players is to force them to live in favelas and play football with rotting rat corpses.

[Norm]

why not hoddle?,it seems he is busy doing his own thing at the moment but i sure he would be available on a part time basis.lowe and hoddle obviously get on and hoddle isnt shy working with the youngsters ,also hoddle likes the european way and i think he would be the ideal person to offer his experience to JP.

 

 

Nice idea but would you leave sunny Costa De Luz and come back here on a part time basis. No, he is unlikely to.

 

I think Rup' is in a no win situation, as posted earlier. Dammed if he does, dammed if he doesn't. I have no idea of the 'rights' or 'wrongs' re the board etc, but this situation is the worst in my long memory.

[West End Saint]

The only change we will see is players that are worth some money being sold and we will sink or swim with Jan the man and who ever we cant sell no way will Wupert admit he got it wrong with the management and the whole point of having them was so we can use the kids we have already got we MAY get 1 or 2 loans in to replace those that have gone back and we will probably get Saga and Nathan back will it be enough to keep us up ? if we had beat Forest I would said yes but now I think we will go down

[lordswoodsaints]

I've never quite understood this line of thinking.

 

They've won the world cup a grand total of zero times. Th entire argument seems to be based around Ajax having once won the European Cup with a young team.

 

IMO the best way of nurturing young players is to force them to live in favelas and play football with rotting rat corpses.

 

a mate of mine was part of the team set up for the development of youth players for the whole of england,his job was to study the way that the european countries set out their youth policies and then basically copy what he had studied and used it in england.this was all fa approved and funded and he was sent many times to holland to study the youth teams of ajax and all of the other major teams in holland,spending weeks at a time watching every aspect of their development,his conclusions were that the dutch teams were at least 15 years ahead of us when developing young players.

this all happened in the mid to late 90's at about the same time owen was breaking into the england team,he predicted that owen would not play for england past 30 and that he would be constantly plagued with injury because he was thrust into the big time too soon,basically doing too much too soon at an early age.turns out he was right and i suspect the same will happen to rooney.

 

so i suppose the lesson is,the youngsters need more time to develop,thrusting them into the limelight too soon will just ruin them.

 

what lowe is doing at saints is in no way related to anything the dutch do,for a start they give their youth players many years to develop at their own pace......something which isnt happening here.

[70's Mike]

a mate of mine was part of the team set up for the development of youth players for the whole of england,his job was to study the way that the european countries set out their youth policies and then basically copy what he had studied and used it in england.this was all fa approved and funded and he was sent many times to holland to study the youth teams of ajax and all of the other major teams in holland,spending weeks at a time watching every aspect of their development,his conclusions were that the dutch teams were at least 15 years ahead of us when developing young players.

this all happened in the mid to late 90's at about the same time owen was breaking into the england team,he predicted that owen would not play for england past 30 and that he would be constantly plagued with injury because he was thrust into the big time too soon,basically doing too much too soon at an early age.turns out he was right and i suspect the same will happen to rooney.

 

so i suppose the lesson is,the youngsters need more time to develop,thrusting them into the limelight too soon will just ruin them.

 

what lowe is doing at saints is in no way related to anything the dutch do,for a start they give their youth players many years to develop at their own pace......something which isnt happening here.

 

and all dutch teams play in the same style and way, so rarely have to meet muscle bound defenders or deal with crosses

[Tamesaint]

We don't have the revenue to make major changes and its a pity we are not like a club like Derby who despite all their failings in the past 18 months are still pulling in avg. gates of 27-28k ......

 

Did Crouch and McMenemy throw any money in to support the cause? Did Crouch offer but only in the form of a loan? Hardly going out on a limb is it? This club needs to be self sufficient for its long term survival and so perhaps we all have to start to dig deep, in return for 90 mins of football and supporting your team.

 

 

Your style may have changed Sundance and your posts now make several interesting points. You however do continue to make one or two howlers which need to be corrected.

 

1. You continue to slag off the fans for not attending matches in their droves. You have been banging on this drum for several months now. Your post above for example compares us with Derby (a team just relegated from the Premiership who sold season tickets by the dozen at the start of the season on the promise of a quick return). However we had the fourth highest CCC attendance over the last set of matches played on Sunday / Monday. The previous set of home matches saw us register the highest attendance in the CCC that weekend.

 

Of course we would like the attendance to be higher. Of course we want more fans but I do not think that our attendances are doing that badly considering the dross that has been served up this season. We got a higher gate on Sunday than a team like Cardiff - who are riding high in the league and are full of JCL's following their Cup Final appearance in May. We have the worst home record in the top 3 English divisions and were on a run of 4 consecutive defeats yet we still got a higher attendance than Cardiff!!

 

Please think a little more before going down the "its the fickle fans who are ruining this club" route.

 

 

2. Crouch may have "only" offered a loan but why didn't Lowe match his offer? Why didn't Wilde , the main shareholder, come up with a similar sum? Crouch is a minority shareholder who is now not even sitting on the board. Are you seriously suggesting that you would expect a minority shareholder to pump extra cash into a business when the Board directors and the majority shareholders refuse to do so? Are you seriously suggesting that you would expect a minority shareholder to pump extra cash into a business when the current Board steer a course which he rejects?

 

Crouch is a more successful businessman than Lowe (whoops thats another one of my businesses gone belly up) and Wilde (Merlion may be technically insolvent but if I shut my eyes it may go away) put together. Successful businessmen do not give money to people who then do not give them any say in how it is spent.

 

 

One other point Sundance. Why don't you pay that fiver and join this forim as a full member? You would not try to cram so much into your posts and that way you would not be limited to just 3 posts a day . It would be easier to read what you want to say!! :-) :-)

Edited 30 December, 2008 by Tamesaint