General election? June 8th?

[buctootim]

Some of us are old enough to remember that the lib dems is a rebrand, from last time the centre left a-listers bailed out of the Labour party and left it to the hard left.

 

Lib Lab Dems next

[buctootim]

I did a whole module at uni called lying with numbers.

 

You can show anything you want with any graph. Especially ones which are absolutely not showing what I'm talking about.

 

Actual physical money into the exchequer is the important thing, eh?

 

A whole module huh? You must be vastly experienced. And the answer to your question is 'no'. The important metric is corporate taxes as share of national income and as a percentage of total tax take. Otherwise it enables the disingenuous to portray the effects of inflation and an economy recovering from recession as the laffer curve effect actually being real.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

The NHS is in crisis. for real, not newspaper headlines. Its in crisis because 1. People are living longer and old people need more care 2. the population is growing 3. More diseases are treatable so sick people live longer (linked to but separate from point 1) 4. We dont train enough doctors and nurses.

 

5. We have a 1950's system that is unfit for the 21st century, but no political party have the balls to do anything about it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OldNick]

A whole module huh? You must be vastly experienced. And the answer to your question is 'no'. The important metric is corporate taxes as share of national income and as a percentage of total tax take. Otherwise it enables the disingenuous to portray the effects of inflation and an economy recovering from recession as the laffer curve effect actually being real.

yep go and up the Corporation tax, and watch the companies up and go in this global world. We need to encourage companies to come here and invest in jobs and pay some tax rather than let those people go to countries who will take them with open arms.

[buctootim]

5. We have a 1950's system that is unfit for the 21st century, but no political party have the balls to do anything about it.

 

The bottom line is people are living longer but the number of healthy years they live isnt increasing. Essentially the more successfully you treat illness the more illness you have to treat next time. I used to work for the NHS trying to find out how people want to limit services - the answer is they don't, but they don't want to pay for the consequences of that decision either. We need someone to challenge that illusion - but anyone who did would get mullered at the polls.

[OldNick]

Virtually all hospitals in deficit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35608992

 

NHS has worst winter on record, as long waits for operations soar

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/13/nhs-has-worst-winter-record-number-surgery-waiting-lists-soars/

 

Bedblocking and waiting times reach record levels: NHS endures worst-ever winter crisis with 200,000 patients forced to wait longer than four hours at A&E

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4410668/NHS-endures-worst-winter-crisis-E.html#ixzz4gIDLqatZ

 

Staffing crisis as nurses quit NHS

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/653954/Staffing-crisis-nurses-quit-NHS-health-Britain-mental-health

I want trhe NHS to thrive and it is a fantastic asset, but do you not see the scaremongering that they put to people in the past and proved not to be true.

Labour throw the NHS thing out time and again to try and deceive us.

[OldNick]

The bottom line is people are living longer but the number of healthy years they live isnt increasing. Essentially the more successfully you treat illness the more illness you have to treat next time. I used to work for the NHS trying to find out how people want to limit services - the answer is they don't, but they don't want to pay for the consequences of that decision either. We need someone to challenge that illusion - but anyone who did would get mullered at the polls.

All true.I think you put up that we had something like 20% of our working population were on sick pay/unable to work. I wonder what % the workforce in in India, China or Indonesia has? I bet because they are not pampered like us that it is a lot lower

[buctootim]

yep go and up the Corporation tax, and watch the companies up and go in this global world. We need to encourage companies to come here and invest in jobs and pay some tax rather than let those people go to countries who will take them with open arms.

 

You just end up skewing the market. How can British Costa compete on an equal playing field when they pay tax and international Starbuck dont. Why should Next pay and Amazon not?

[trousers]

5. We have a 1950's system that is unfit for the 21st century, but no political party have the balls to do anything about it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Spooky. Was just about to post the same.

 

We need a 'progressive' solution to finance the NHS. IMO the demand has got too big for a service to be fully funded out of taxation (notwithstanding that taxes are never spent efficiently by cumbersome public services).

 

IMO we need a hybrid system that is "free at the point of service" for people that can't afford otherwise, and a supplementary insurance based scheme for those than can afford it.

 

But, as LD says, this'll never happen because all parties avoid tackling the sacred cow that is the NHS. And, they are probably right as it would be a sure fire election loser given the short-sightedness​ of Joe Public.

[buctootim]

notwithstanding that taxes are never spent efficiently by cumbersome public services.

 

Simply not true. Compare the cost per procedure between NHS hospitals and private UK ones.

 

IMO we need a hybrid system that is "free at the point of service" for people that can't afford otherwise, and a supplementary insurance based scheme for those than can afford it.

 

Its called BUPA

Edited 6 May, 2017 by buctootim

[Nolan]

In a hospital on the edge of London. It cost £1000 to buy and mount a 17" monitor for patient information.

 

In a private hospital without the ludicrous contracts drawn up by jobsworths, this would have cost less than £200.

 

(as told to me by a level 5 nhs manager)

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[buctootim]

In a hospital on the edge of London. It cost £1000 to buy and mount a 17" monitor for patient information.

 

In a private hospital without the ludicrous contracts drawn up by jobsworths, this would have cost less than £200.

 

(as told to me by a level 5 nhs manager)

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

Might be marginally less obviously made up if there was such thing as a level 5 NHS manager

[trousers]

Simply not true. Compare the cost per procedure between NHS hospitals and private UK ones.

 

I can't argue with that as I don't have the stats. All I know is that there is a hell of a lot of inefficiency (aka money not spent efficiently) in the NHS (based on the feedback I get from my relatives that work there). Maybe private hospitals cost more (per procedure) because they are better rather than because they are more inefficient?

 

I'm just not convinced throwing endless cash at the NHS is the utopian solution some hold it up to be

[aintforever]

We need a 'progressive' solution to finance the NHS. IMO the demand has got too big for a service to be fully funded out of taxation (notwithstanding that taxes are never spent efficiently by cumbersome public services

 

I disagree, there are plenty of people who could pay more tax, the problem is people are too greedy/tight nowadays.

 

Because of low inflation and interest rates, if you are in a half decent job and own your own home these last few years of 'austerity' have been a piece of ****. Me and the mrs are not rich but we are both above average earners - we wouldn't have even noticed a few percent extra in tax. Austerity is just something I read about in the papers or see on TV.

[buctootim]

I can't argue with that as I don't have the stats. All I know is that there is a hell of a lot of inefficiency (aka money not spent efficiently) in the NHS (based on the feedback I get from my relatives that work there). Maybe private hospitals cost more (per procedure) because they are better rather than because they are more inefficient?

 

I'm just not convinced throwing endless cash at the NHS is the utopian solution some hold it up to be

 

Throwing cash at it isnt the solution. There needs to be some kind of prioritisation. You will never ever be able to do everything in an age where you can keep pretty much everybody alive if you throw enough technology at it.

 

However what reallt really irritates me is the idea that the private system is the answer and is more efficient. tbh it just shows ignorance. Sure there is waste in the NHS, there is waste in every organisation. However the cost per treatment per patient is far lower, usually about the half the cost, of private hospitals. Nicer food and a private room do not account for that difference.

 

Its ignorant views of the NHS which will destroy it. There used to be wholehearted commitment from the people who worked there because they felt appreciated as a public service. Ignorant sniping, like yours, has progressively destroyed that feeling. You will end up with a private service, like the US, which will cost you double what the NHS does, and will do far less for you. Hopefully you won't end up like my friends in their 60s who are selling their home to meet the cost of her cancer treatment, after the insurance company cancelled her cover after one round of treatment because she was too high risk.

[trousers]

I disagree, there are plenty of people who could pay more tax, the problem is people are too greedy/tight nowadays.

 

Because of low inflation and interest rates, if you are in a half decent job and own your own home these last few years of 'austerity' have been a piece of ****. Me and the mrs are not rich but we are both above average earners - we wouldn't have even noticed a few percent extra in tax. Austerity is just something I read about in the papers or see on TV.

I don't think anyone disagrees that 'healthcare' in the UK requires additional investment. It's more about 'how' that investment is sourced and utilised. I'm not qualified enough to know what the best solution is, but I can't help thinking we need a different model to the one we've largely had since the NHS's inception last century.

[Nolan]

We don't need more tax. We need limitation on the inflation of drugs prices, we need action on spurious litigation claims, we need contracts that don't make financial sense ripped up.

 

There are lots of things that still need to be done before taxes rise.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Nolan]

Might be marginally less obviously made up if there was such thing as a level 5 NHS manager

Lol... My sister is lying to me about her job then.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[buctootim]

We don't need more tax. We need limitation on the inflation of drugs prices, we need action on spurious litigation claims, we need contracts that don't make financial sense ripped up.

 

There are lots of things that still need to be done before taxes rise.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

Ah mythical waste. Just cut the waste and everything will be free, probably enough left over to fund a tax cut even.

[buctootim]

Lol... My sister is lying to me about her job then.

 

Seems that way. Its BAND 5 and its not a managerial job.

https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/about/careers-nhs/nhs-pay-and-benefits/agenda-change-pay-rates

[aintforever]

I don't think anyone disagrees that 'healthcare' in the UK requires additional investment. It's more about 'how' that investment is sourced and utilised. I'm not qualified enough to know what the best solution is, but I can't help thinking we need a different model to the one we've largely had since the NHS's inception last century.

 

I agree the model will need to change but in the short term we could easily pay a bit more tax.

 

My little girl was ill last Monday and being a bank holiday we had to go to a drop in centre at the Royal South Hants (they've shut the one at Bitterne) and it was like something from the 3rd world. Some poor little kid must have been waiting there for two hours in agony with blood ****ing out his mouth. The poor NHS staff were working flat out like they were on a production line.

[Nolan]

Who f In cares what the accurate term is. She's a manager of admin of two large depts in a large hospital. I know this for a fact as I've stood in her f in office.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[trousers]

I agree the model will need to change but in the short term we could easily pay a bit more tax.

 

My little girl was ill last Monday and being a bank holiday we had to go to a drop in centre at the Royal South Hants (they've shut the one at Bitterne) and it was like something from the 3rd world. Some poor little kid must have been waiting there for two hours in agony with blood ****ing out his mouth. The poor NHS staff were working flat out like they were on a production line.

 

I sometimes wonder how much of that is due to local (mis)management and how much is due to lack of funding from central.

 

My local hospital (Frimley Park) is, like all hospitals, under increasing 'supply and demand' pressures but it is often held up as a beacon for other hospitals to aspire to....

 

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/frimley-health-trust-ceo-tops-12639280

 

http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2014-09-26/frimley-park-hospital-praised-as-outstanding/

 

https://www.fhft.nhs.uk/news/rated-highly-by-our-staff/

 

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/frimley-park-hospitals-new-emergency-12954450

Edited 6 May, 2017 by trousers

[Winnersaint]

Mixed fortunes for UKIP, they've lost every council seat in the local elections, will be decimated in the general election, whilst the same time gaining overall control of the Tory party.

[Jonnyboy]

Might be marginally less made up if there was such thing as a level 5 NHS manager

 

..

[sadoldgit]

Mixed fortunes for UKIP, they've lost every council seat in the local elections, will be decimated in the general election, whilst the same time gaining overall control of the Tory party.

 

Sad, but true!

[Nolan]

http://nhsjobs.com/job/UK/Gwynedd_Isle_Anglesey/Wrexham/Betsi_Cadwaladr_University_Health_Board/Medical_Directorate/Medical_Directorate-v656809?_ts=1

 

Oh look. It's a level / band 5 manager job advert. For... Oh wow.... It's the NHS.

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Jonnyboy]

http://nhsjobs.com/job/UK/Gwynedd_Isle_Anglesey/Wrexham/Betsi_Cadwaladr_University_Health_Board/Medical_Directorate/Medical_Directorate-v656809?_ts=1

 

Oh look. It's a level / band 5 manager job advert. For... Oh wow.... It's the NHS.

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

Assistant manager, downgraded to band 5 to save money. Much like PCSOs or TLAs.

[Nolan]

Pedantry.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Jonnyboy]

Ah mythical waste. Just cut the waste and everything will be free, probably enough left over to fund a tax cut even.

 

Southamptons own Professor Pritchard will confirm that the NHS is the most efficient Western health service.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10583606.amp

 

But then Nolan has had enough of experts.

Unfortunately he seems to be one of those incapable of critical thought. Once the mind is made up it can't be changed. See the years long debate with pap that the Xbox one is superior and more successful than the Playstation 4 (clearly because he'd bought one).

[Verbal]

Sad, but true!

 

Not really. The Tories are prisoners of the referendum result, not UKIP.

 

Without question, or sensible opposition, she'll get her thumping majority, which will make precisely zero difference in negotiations with the EU (how this non sequitur got any traction I've no idea).

 

The really important question is what happens in the two years after the election. The EU are absolutely united, whatever the cost, in making sure she gets a bad Brexit. The problem for her is she'll own it as far as the electorate is concerned. Provided Labour has ditched the Quisling Jesus and his cult - and quickly - there will be a way back by profiting from the backlash.

[Nolan]

Not really. The Tories are prisoners of the referendum result, not UKIP.

 

Without question, or sensible opposition, she'll get her thumping majority, which will make precisely zero difference in negotiations with the EU (how this non sequitur got any traction I've no idea).

 

The really important question is what happens in the two years after the election. The EU are absolutely united, whatever the cost, in making sure she gets a bad Brexit. The problem for her is she'll own it as far as the electorate is concerned. Provided Labour has ditched the Quisling Jesus and his cult - and quickly - there will be a way back by profiting from the backlash.

But in all honesty. It's not really about the negotiations. It's about the fact that the Lords cannot vote against something that is in a manifesto. Which stops the EU and people like Blair and Campbell collaborating with remainer peers to frustrate.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Jonnyboy]

Not really. The Tories are prisoners of the referendum result, not UKIP.

 

Without question, or sensible opposition, she'll get her thumping majority, which will make precisely zero difference in negotiations with the EU (how this non sequitur got any traction I've no idea).

 

The really important question is what happens in the two years after the election. The EU are absolutely united, whatever the cost, in making sure she gets a bad Brexit. The problem for her is she'll own it as far as the electorate is concerned. Provided Labour has ditched the Quisling Jesus and his cult - and quickly - there will be a way back by profiting from the backlash.

 

Verbal, who will you be voting for this June?

[shurlock]

But in all honesty. It's not really about the negotiations. It's about the fact that the Lords cannot vote against something that is in a manifesto. Which stops the EU and people like Blair and Campbell collaborating with remainer peers to frustrate.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

More bunkum.

 

Manifesto or no manifesto, there's not a shred of evidence that the Lords were going to substantively frustrate things beyond a bit of procedural ping ponging from which they've always backed down in double quick time. To do otherwise would risk a major backlash reform and potential obsolescence.

Edited 6 May, 2017 by shurlock

[Nolan]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_Convention

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[shurlock]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_Convention

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

Am well aware of it. So what?

 

http://app.ft.com/content/a9e08918-3707-394b-9b17-df615cd8ad0b

 

Unless any Tory manifesto provides clear detail about the Brexit deal it is offering (which May refuses or is unwilling to do), there'll still be plenty of wriggle room for the Lords. It's an utter red herring.

[Nolan]

Am well aware of it. So what?

 

http://app.ft.com/content/a9e08918-3707-394b-9b17-df615cd8ad0b

 

Unless any Tory manifesto provides clear detail about the Brexit deal it is offering (which May refuses or is unwilling to do), there'll still be plenty of wriggle room for the Lords. It's an utter red herring.

Clear details of Brexit have been available since January. The lib dems and Labour like to pretend it didn't happen.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-governments-negotiating-objectives-for-exiting-the-eu-pm-speech

 

That is what will appear in the Conservative manifesto.

 

Therefore the Salisbury convention will apply

 

The Lords could frustrate any individual point of any or that is not in the manifesto

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[aintforever]

Clear details of Brexit have been available since January. The lib dems and Labour like to pretend it didn't happen.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-governments-negotiating-objectives-for-exiting-the-eu-pm-speech

 

That is what will appear in the Conservative manifesto.

 

Therefore the Salisbury convention will apply

 

The Lords could frustrate any individual point of any or that is not in the manifesto

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

Why would they do that though? We are leaving the EU regardless, any interference from the Lords will just mean we leave without a deal on WTO rules.

[shurlock]

F

Clear details of Brexit have been available since January. The lib dems and Labour like to pretend it didn't happen.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-governments-negotiating-objectives-for-exiting-the-eu-pm-speech

 

That is what will appear in the Conservative manifesto.

 

Therefore the Salisbury convention will apply

 

The Lords could frustrate any individual point of any or that is not in the manifesto

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

 

I've seen tattoos on footballers with more writing, detail and coherence than that.

[Nolan]

Let's see what's in the Tory manifesto. I think it's due Thursday 11th.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Lord Duckhunter]

Let's see what's in the Tory manifesto. I think it's due Thursday 11th.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

I'm hoping it'll make 2 clear commitments . One that we're coming out of both the single market & the customs union . And two, parliament will be given a vote consisting of The deal or no deal. I'm sick of remoaners banging on about her lack of mandate in these areas.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Verbal]

Verbal, who will you be voting for this June?

 

As you appear to be a fully paid up (all £3 of it) member of the cult, I'll give you the only answer you'll understand.

 

As someone who thinks Corbyn is ****, which makes me in your odd little mind a Red Tory and therefore an actual Tory, I'm voting for the abolition of the NHS, the removal of any minimum wage, the repeal of the Equality Act, the reduction to all unemployment benefits to zero, and the demolition of all council housing that's not been right-to-bought.

[Jonnyboy]

As you appear to be a fully paid up (all £3 of it) member of the cult, I'll give you the only answer you'll understand.

 

As someone who thinks Corbyn is ****, which makes me in your odd little mind a Red Tory and therefore an actual Tory, I'm voting for the abolition of the NHS, the removal of any minimum wage, the repeal of the Equality Act, the reduction to all unemployment benefits to zero, and the demolition of all council housing that's not been right-to-bought.

 

Not at all. I'm just curious and slightly amused to find, that someone with such a swivel-eyed pathological hatred of the left, will be voting for Jeremy Corbyn on election day.

[ecuk268]

I'm voting for the abolition of the NHS, the removal of any minimum wage, the repeal of the Equality Act, the reduction to all unemployment benefits to zero, and the demolition of all council housing that's not been right-to-bought.

 

Admit it, you've had a sneek preview of the Tory manifesto.

[Nolan]

Admit it, you've had a sneek preview of the Tory manifesto.

As presented by the Canary.

 

Obviously when the polls tell you that May is more trusted with the NHS than Corbyn. You have got to wonder why the same lines that have been pulled out for the last 50 years, are still being pulled out.

 

Nonsensical.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Verbal]

Great win by Macron yesterday, made even better by a Farage tantrum-sulk:

 

"Macron offers five more years of failure, more power to the EU and a continuation of open borders. If Marine sticks in there, she can win in 2022."

 

You lost Nigel, suck it up. The will of the people has spoken.

 

Nige's Brexit campaign also tweeted yesterday, claiming the French voters, in not supporting Le Pen, had capitulated, just as they had to Hitler.

 

Which is weird, because it places these British bulldogs firmly on the side of the neo-Nazis.

 

Vichy would presumably therefore have been full of little Brexiteers.

[Nolan]

But frankly it's very worrying that the far right are getting such a large percentage of the vote.

 

Luckily the Conservatives are taking over the vacant centre ground in the UK and not pandering to the Farage / Banks apologists.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[saint1977]

I sometimes wonder how much of that is due to local (mis)management and how much is due to lack of funding from central.

 

My local hospital (Frimley Park) is, like all hospitals, under increasing 'supply and demand' pressures but it is often held up as a beacon for other hospitals to aspire to....

 

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/frimley-health-trust-ceo-tops-12639280

 

http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2014-09-26/frimley-park-hospital-praised-as-outstanding/

 

https://www.fhft.nhs.uk/news/rated-highly-by-our-staff/

 

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/frimley-park-hospitals-new-emergency-12954450

 

At most hospitals you will be treated by the same doctors and specialists as your local NHS hospital at Frimley Park or the Royal Surrey.

 

Not saying at all that NHS couldn't be run better because it clearly could, the non-clinical side needs a right good sort out in a lot of trusts as it is way too senior-manager heavy (in my experience working with them) but really not sure wholesale privatisation by itself without some top-up funding is going to make a difference either.

 

To answer your question, yes some of it is central funding and some of it is people clinging to their jobs that they've had for 20+ years (and stopped making a positive impact years ago in some cases and play the political system) but because of budgetary pressure Trust Execs baulk at getting rid of them because it is very costly even at mid-level to do so. Best thing Hunt could do is set aside £2bn to have a one-off non-clinical clear out - spend to save - because the wage bills will be a bit more sustainable afterward and many Trusts' decision-making will be unblocked. I'm talking NHS senior managers here because that's where the savings are, not the people on £20-50k who actually do the work.

 

Whilst Jeremy Hunt is at it, please abolish the CCGs! It's an experiment has doesn't work and hasn't worked, just look at the last set of audits.

[buctootim]

At most hospitals you will be treated by the same doctors and specialists as your local NHS hospital at Frimley Park or the Royal Surrey.

 

Not saying at all that NHS couldn't be run better because it clearly could, the non-clinical side needs a right good sort out in a lot of trusts as it is way too senior-manager heavy (in my experience working with them) but really not sure wholesale privatisation by itself without some top-up funding is going to make a difference either.

 

To answer your question, yes some of it is central funding and some of it is people clinging to their jobs that they've had for 20+ years (and stopped making a positive impact years ago in some cases and play the political system) but because of budgetary pressure Trust Execs baulk at getting rid of them because it is very costly even at mid-level to do so. Best thing Hunt could do is set aside £2bn to have a one-off non-clinical clear out - spend to save - because the wage bills will be a bit more sustainable afterward and many Trusts' decision-making will be unblocked. I'm talking NHS senior managers here because that's where the savings are, not the people on £20-50k who actually do the work.

 

Whilst Jeremy Hunt is at it, please abolish the CCGs! It's an experiment has doesn't work and hasn't worked, just look at the last set of audits.

 

Most managerial posts only exist because of the internal market introduced by the Tories which has done nothing other than add a new level of complexity and expense.

 

In any event it casts the private sector in a very poor light. Why is it that, in the internal market trumpeted by the Tories, budget holders have the power to use any hospital but NHS hospitals still account for 98% of procedures? Is it because 1. the NHS are grossly inefficient or 2. Because they are amongst the lowest cost in the Western world, around half of what a private UK hospital charges?

 

Average cost for private hospital hip replacement is £11,000, about the same for knee replacements. The NHS is typically half of this.

http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/conditions-and-treatments/hip-replacement-total/costs/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2016/feb/08/how-much-have-i-cost-the-nhs

 

 

An interesting (anecdotal) comparison of US and UK emergency room (A&E) waiting times. The UK performs better, despite the US being a private service and consuming more than twice the share of GDP http://uk.businessinsider.com/comparison-uk-nhs-v-us-private-heathcare-2015-1

Edited 8 May, 2017 by buctootim

[Verbal]

An interesting (anecdotal) comparison of US and UK emergency room (A&E) waiting times. The UK performs better, despite the US being a private service and consuming more than twice the share of GDP http://uk.businessinsider.com/comparison-uk-nhs-v-us-private-heathcare-2015-1

 

Agree, an interesting story. A better comparison might be the NHS with the bits of the US health system that are public. I spent a couple of days in the ER in LA County Hospital a few years ago. Some of the people I saw in the waiting room on day one were still there on day two. The quality of care itself was top class - the senior trauma surgeon there is an acknowledged world leading researcher in treating multiple and extreme injuries. But the sheer sense of despair among uninsured people seeking help was overwhelming. And all in a hospital waiting room which included a feature you won't find in your typical A&E - a set of cells for treating a steady stream prisoners injured in the local jail.

 

A&E in NHS by comparison is quick, efficient, and friendly, even when it's dealing with the Saturday night intake.

 

But all this raises a problem politically. Every election, the arguments about the NHS are wound up to fever pitch. It is supposedly crumbling, duplicitous (when pursuing closures) and increasingly privatised (Labour), or it is in need of endless amounts of reform, making doctors more 'responsive' to their customers (Tories). All of which corrodes morale in a service that depends more than anything on the idea that medical care is a public good and that treating patients is a calling.

 

Both sides are wrong. Labour is wrong, because the NHS has always, from its birth, been a compromise, allowing private care to operate within hospitals (without it, the NHS would never have got off the ground, because of a long stand-off between the '45 Labour government and the BMA). And the Tories are wrong, because endless managerialist reforms have already damaged the very thing the NHS exists to do.

 

So the irony is that the NHS is both a sacred cow and a political football. And the consequence is that we can't have a reasoned, informed, reflective national discussion about what we want the NHS to be. We're trapped between the false nostalgia of the Labour party and the managerialist obsessions of the Tories

 

Yet that discussion urgently needs to take place - without the tribal rancour of the main political parties vying to the ones with whom the NHS is supposedly - and really not - 'safe'.