LGBT+ Discussion

[swannymere]

I'm not sure that there's a concensus that it it socailly unacceptable or that its clear that it is wrong. I'm sure what i assume are men discussing it on a forum helps either way?

[hypochondriac]

13 minutes ago, swannymere said:

I'm not sure that there's a concensus that it it socailly unacceptable or that its clear that it is wrong. I'm sure what i assume are men discussing it on a forum helps either way?

I don't see why it's not possible for us to discuss it. As I said, many men have close female relatives or daughters so it's relevant to them as well. It's also possible to represent the views of those women in the discussion which I think both sides have done. 

I think the recent high court rulings have made it clear what the rules are regarding single sex spaces so even though I think there very much is a majority opinion on the matter, the courts have told us what should be happening anyway.

Edited Thursday at 15:25 by hypochondriac

[Sir Ralph]

59 minutes ago, swannymere said:

I'm not sure that there's a concensus that it it socailly unacceptable or that its clear that it is wrong. I'm sure what i assume are men discussing it on a forum helps either way?

Well I’m a trans women so my view does hold weight and only biological men should use women’s toilets 😆

[pingpong]

If you follow the logic of all this, without genital checks, toilets will be policed by how masculine or feminine you are.  Butch women will have to use the gents, and effeminate men will have to use the ladies. We will all end up mixed together anyway.

The ehrc solution to this acknowledged issue is that it will be asymmetrical, meaning that butch women (or trans men) will simply not be allowed to use single sex spaces, and will only be able to use specially provided gender neutral facilities, which most places won't provide, so they'll just have to cope.  

Trans women who pass will still use the ladies, but would be eligible to use the gents too, which I guess is nice for them.

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, pingpong said:

If you follow the logic of all this, without genital checks, toilets will be policed by how masculine or feminine you are.  Butch women will have to use the gents, and effeminate men will have to use the ladies. We will all end up mixed together anyway.

The ehrc solution to this acknowledged issue is that it will be asymmetrical, meaning that butch women (or trans men) will simply not be allowed to use single sex spaces, and will only be able to use specially provided gender neutral facilities, which most places won't provide, so they'll just have to cope.  

Trans women who pass will still use the ladies, but would be eligible to use the gents too, which I guess is nice for them.

I don't know which 'logic' you're following but this all seems like a deliberate attempt to confuse what is a fairly straight forward system, which has worked perfectly well around the world for centuries and doesn't need changing. If you have male reproductive organs, used the mens changing/toilet facilities, if you have female organs, use the ladies.

There's no other system that can or will work. You can't make laws based on subjective ideas of how people feel or how 'butch' they look.

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

I don't know which 'logic' you're following but this all seems like a deliberate attempt to confuse what is a fairly straight forward system, which has worked perfectly well around the world for centuries and doesn't need changing. If you have male reproductive organs, used the mens changing/toilet facilities, if you have female organs, use the ladies.

There's no other system that can or will work. You can't make laws based on subjective ideas of how people feel or how 'butch' they look.

Exactly. Some perverted man may still try to break the rules and encroach on women's spaces but I am confident that less will do so when the law is explicit that they are not welcome and should not be entering women's spaces.

[pingpong]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I don't know which 'logic' you're following but this all seems like a deliberate attempt to confuse what is a fairly straight forward system, which has worked perfectly well around the world for centuries and doesn't need changing. If you have male reproductive organs, used the mens changing/toilet facilities, if you have female organs, use the ladies.

There's no other system that can or will work. You can't make laws based on subjective ideas of how people feel or how 'butch' they look.

We're agreeing, the old system we've had for decades is fine, and supreme court and ehrc shouldn't be making laws and guidance based on  appearance.

But that's where we are at the moment, unfortunately.

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, pingpong said:

We're agreeing, the old system we've had for decades is fine, and supreme court and ehrc shouldn't be making laws and guidance based on  appearance.

But that's where we are at the moment, unfortunately.

Great we agree. No biological men in the women's loos.

[Turkish]

14 hours ago, swannymere said:

I'm not sure that there's a concensus that it it socailly unacceptable or that its clear that it is wrong. I'm sure what i assume are men discussing it on a forum helps either way?

How dare you assume our gender!

[pingpong]

7 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Great we agree. No biological men in the women's loos.

I'm not sure it's great, as the upcoming system seems like it will be looks based.

[hypochondriac]

21 minutes ago, pingpong said:

I'm not sure it's great, as the upcoming system seems like it will be looks based.

There's been no proposal that I have seen to physically police loos. The principal is no biological men in women's spaces.

[badgerx16]

41 minutes ago, pingpong said:

I'm not sure it's great, as the upcoming system seems like it will be looks based.

Look between the legs ?

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Look between the legs ?

The crocodile Dundee test?

[pingpong]

22 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

There's been no proposal that I have seen to physically police loos. The principal is no biological men in women's spaces.

Policing is another matter entirely. We all think it is unlikely we will have genital inspections. It's likely this just results in people using the law as an excuse to bully people out of toilets who they don't like the look of.

The initial ehrc guidance, which is our only current clue to the direction the full guidance will take, talked about biological women "being excluded from women-only facilities where reasonable objection is taken to their presence based on their appearance or attributes."

It's based on the concept that everyone "can tell", which is a bit like the toupee fallacy.

[Weston Super Saint]

29 minutes ago, pingpong said:

Policing is another matter entirely. We all think it is unlikely we will have genital inspections. It's likely this just results in people using the law as an excuse to bully people out of toilets who they don't like the look of.

Jesus wept.

Men in mens bogs, women in womens bogs.  Not fucking hard is it?

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, pingpong said:

Policing is another matter entirely. We all think it is unlikely we will have genital inspections. It's likely this just results in people using the law as an excuse to bully people out of toilets who they don't like the look of.

The initial ehrc guidance, which is our only current clue to the direction the full guidance will take, talked about biological women "being excluded from women-only facilities where reasonable objection is taken to their presence based on their appearance or attributes."

It's based on the concept that everyone "can tell", which is a bit like the toupee fallacy.

If there's no men in the women's loos then there's less likely to be an issue. I don't think people should be confronting people if it isn't obvious what sex they are (although sometimes it is very obvious) but if you hadn't had men trespassing into spaces they shouldn't be then this would have never been an issue.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Jesus wept.

Men in mens bogs, women in womens bogs.  Not fucking hard is it?

Although, if it's hard, then that's a bit of a giveaway should the first sentence be ignored.

[Weston Super Saint]

3 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Although, if it's hard, then that's a bit of a giveaway should the first sentence be ignored.

Could happen to men in mens bogs as well....  

[Holmes_and_Watson]

6 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Could happen to men in mens bogs as well....  

Same time at the station later? 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Same time at the station later? 

Absolutely.

[whelk]

I shouldn’t encourage Hypo but how dare these nurses not wanting to get changed with this bloke. Bigots!

https://news.sky.com/story/nurse-feared-being-labelled-a-bigot-in-transgender-case-employment-tribunal-hears-13458796

[The Kraken]

So many things in that story are absolutely mental 😆

[hypochondriac]

4 hours ago, whelk said:

I shouldn’t encourage Hypo but how dare these nurses not wanting to get changed with this bloke. Bigots!

https://news.sky.com/story/nurse-feared-being-labelled-a-bigot-in-transgender-case-employment-tribunal-hears-13458796

I'd be interested to hear the arguments for the people who support this sort of degeneracy.