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was Jan shafted???


St. Jason
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Things just don't add up, does anyone else smell a rat?

 

I just don't get it, Lowe and Wotte have very publicly stated that "he almost took the job before Burley" so why wasn't he offered it this season?

 

Why was an unknown, un-experienced manager in Jan appointed as first team coach with Wotte managing the reserves? Jan had never managed a club the size of Saints, where as Wotte's got plenty of experience, why and how could he be under jan?

 

I realise the thread is going to labeled as "conspiracy theories" but does anyone else think Jan was set up for a fall from the start, Wotte can't fail now can he. If he succeeds (i hope he does) he's a hero, if he fails it's Lowe & Jans fault. Jan has done all the dirty work, Wotte just cruises in and starts a fresh.

 

I see his first statement says he's going to looking for experienced players now, not other academy players, I thought the club were starting "a fresh new era, we're youth will promoted in a seamless transition from academy to first team". It'll be very interesting to see if Wotte plays 4-4-2 after months of being told "our boyz can only play one way".

 

Nothing adds up, not to me anyway!

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Things just don't add up, does anyone else smell a rat?

 

I just don't get it, Lowe and Wotte have very publicly stated that "he almost took the job before Burley" so why wasn't he offered it this season?

 

Why was an unknown, un-experienced manager in Jan appointed as first team coach with Wotte managing the reserves? Jan had never managed a club the size of Saints, where as Wotte's got plenty of experience, why and how could he be under jan?

 

I realise the thread is going to labeled as "conspiracy theories" but does anyone else think Jan was set up for a fall from the start, Wotte can't fail now can he. If he succeeds (i hope he does) he's a hero, if he fails it's Lowe & Jans fault. Jan has done all the dirty work, Wotte just cruises in and starts a fresh.

 

I see his first statement says he's going to looking for experienced players now, not other academy players, I thought the club were starting "a fresh new era, we're youth will promoted in a seamless transition from academy to first team". It'll be very interesting to see if Wotte plays 4-4-2 after months of being told "our boyz can only play one way".

 

Nothing adds up, not to me anyway!

 

Don't worry, you are not alone....

 

"Eets not rat, eets 'amster"

 

pooping.jpg

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JP was the front man but the whole strategy and guiding light was Wotte. He was Managing advising in a dual role with the beast and Rupert.

 

The change should have been total...Wotte can not be seperated from what has gone before. Does not make sense to me......Lowey has never made sense to be honest...

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JP was the front man but the whole strategy and guiding light was Wotte. He was Managing advising in a dual role with the beast and Rupert.

 

The change should have been total...Wotte can not be seperated from what has gone before. Does not make sense to me......Lowey has never made sense to be honest...

 

Thats my exact point mate, don't get it!

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i heard from a good source that JP was shafted,the person concerned was with JP the day before and he said that although he was upset at the crowd reactions he was determined to put things right and was looking forward to the rest of the season.

 

Exactly, if he was going to "resign" because of the crowd's reaction he'd of done it at the meeting with Lowe & Co on Tuesday. There's no way (imo) he'd come out in the press, the OS etc stating how he was "up for the fight" only to quit 3-4 days later!

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So Jan was the sacrificial anode? Curious...

 

I'm not saying he was put there to protect, I'm just questioning if he was set up to fail??

 

Answer the point Scudamore, does it make sense to you? Why appoint Jan when Lowe'd been after Wotte for 3 years?

 

Interested in your views!

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I think Jan maybe tried to resign after the doncaster game and this was initially turned down by the board. then for some reason there was a change of heart by someone- maybe with the idea that killer could officially join the coaching team as a fan appeasement move.

 

anyone that thinks jan was set up to fail is totally mad IMO, why would anyone set the club up to lose all these matches, because it's in nobodies best interests?

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I'm not saying he was put there to protect, I'm just questioning if he was set up to fail??

 

Answer the point Scudamore, does it make sense to you? Why appoint Jan when Lowe'd been after Wotte for 3 years?

 

Interested in your views!

 

A sacrificial anode is intended to fail...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrificial_anode

 

Thus he could as you say have been put up with the intention of failure allowing Wotte to come in and save the day. Seems 1) a little too high risk 2) a long winded way of doing things when you could just get Wotte in from day one...

 

Can't say i've ever really understood why a man who is supposed to be Director of Football is managing the reserves team however. Especially when Henderson was doing a perfectly acceptable job...

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I think Jan maybe tried to resign after the doncaster game and this was initially turned down by the board. then for some reason there was a change of heart by someone- maybe with the idea that killer could officially join the coaching team as a fan appeasement move.

 

anyone that thinks jan was set up to fail is totally mad IMO, why would anyone set the club up to lose all these matches, because it's in nobodies best interests?

 

 

The thread was opened questioning why Jan was appointed ahead of Wotte, when Lowe had publicly said he wanted him to take over 3 years ago! Doesn't make any sense, not to me anyway.

 

Also what does that do to a manager, knowing that the bloke who's sat next to your boss every game was wanted for your job?

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JP apparently had more experience of leading teams of youngsters when the club had no money I thought was the reason given.

 

But I still dont know whether he resigned or was sacked.

 

 

 

I agree with Ottery if he was sacked I would have thought Wotte would have been sacked as well.

 

It does not add up

Edited by John B
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A sacrificial anode is intended to fail...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrificial_anode

 

Thus he could as you say have been put up with the intention of failure allowing Wotte to come in and save the day. Seems 1) a little too high risk 2) a long winded way of doing things when you could just get Wotte in from day one...

 

Can't say i've ever really understood why a man who is supposed to be Director of Football is managing the reserves team however. Especially when Henderson was doing a perfectly acceptable job...

 

Don't want to get into an argument about word meanings, but a sacrifical anode is indeed put there to fail because it is protecting a more important metal, product, person!

 

Glad your confused by the set aswel, thought it was just me that was confused!

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Might the reason the more senior Dutch coach (Wotte) have been given the apparently more junior position of Reserve Team Coach have been because in Rupert's mind the Reserve Team / Academy is actually more important than Poortvleit's 1st team ?

 

As I see it Rupert Lowe's strategic survival plan for SFC was to turn the club into a 'Talent Factory' - ie we produce a uninterrupted stream of little Walcott's each year for transfer to the Premier League for a huge profit . This is more significant than the ups and downs of mere League form in our beloved Chairman's opinion (unrecognised football genius that he is :rolleyes:)

 

I hasten to add I don't believe this plan could possibly work as you just can't guarantee a star or two each year from any football academy in the real world . In truth we've just been exceptionally lucky in recent years with finding young players and it's unrealistic to expect this to continue indefinitely (& the brain behind it Georges Prost has gone anyway unfortunately) .

 

The success of the 1st team is everything in a football club , to lose sight of his basic truth shows just how deeply out of touch with the game of football the Chairman has become .

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...The success of the 1st team is everything in a football club , to lose sight of his basic truth shows just how deeply out of touch with the game of football the Chairman has become .

 

I haven't quoted all of your post. CEC, as I accept it all, apart from the bit above in bold. I don't believe RL has EVER been in touch with the football side. Managing [a football team] is a highly skilled job, and only the best need apply. Which is why there are so many bad managers around, as the skill is undervalued. Not everybody can do it, as it needs a certain combination of human skills and techniques.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that the success of the first team is everything to a football club. Everything else flows from that, and everything else is secondary. Even the dullest football fan knows this. But the man in charge of this club doesn't, and never has.

 

Is it finally dawning upon him..?

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I haven't quoted all of your post. CEC, as I accept it all, apart from the bit above in bold. I don't believe RL has EVER been in touch with the football side. Managing [a football team] is a highly skilled job, and only the best need apply. Which is why there are so many bad managers around, as the skill is undervalued. Not everybody can do it, as it needs a certain combination of human skills and techniques.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that the success of the first team is everything to a football club. Everything else flows from that, and everything else is secondary. Even the dullest football fan knows this. But the man in charge of this club doesn't, and never has.

 

Is it finally dawning upon him..?

 

I wouldn't of thought so would you mate, Rupert knows best mate, you know that!

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Great logic. Employ them both but make the cheaper one the senior member of staff. You're really on a roll with this and the Pele thread.

 

How was Jan cheaper, WOTTE WAS STILL EMPLOYED BY THE CLUB!!!!!!

 

Maybe the manager position is a higher paid role than DOF/Academy Director (although don't we have 2 DOFs?!) and Lowe thought he could shoe horn Wotte in on a lower wage when Jan f*cked up?! (whether Jan's fault or a combination of tampering, as well as poor management? and interference!)

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Might the reason the more senior Dutch coach (Wotte) have been given the apparently more junior position of Reserve Team Coach have been because in Rupert's mind the Reserve Team / Academy is actually more important than Poortvleit's 1st team ?

 

As I see it Rupert Lowe's strategic survival plan for SFC was to turn the club into a 'Talent Factory' - ie we produce a uninterrupted stream of little Walcott's each year for transfer to the Premier League for a huge profit . This is more significant than the ups and downs of mere League form in our beloved Chairman's opinion (unrecognised football genius that he is :rolleyes:)

 

I hasten to add I don't believe this plan could possibly work as you just can't guarantee a star or two each year from any football academy in the real world . In truth we've just been exceptionally lucky in recent years with finding young players and it's unrealistic to expect this to continue indefinitely (& the brain behind it Georges Prost has gone anyway unfortunately) .

 

The success of the 1st team is everything in a football club , to lose sight of his basic truth shows just how deeply out of touch with the game of football the Chairman has become .

 

Years ago Lowe was quoted as saying we would not do a Leeds, but that he wahted us to be a Crewe. i.e. keep afloat by creating and selling youngsters.

 

He is getting us there in more ways than one. (Look where Crewe are now!)

 

And to answer the OP; I firnly believe Jan was shafted, pushed, sacked, call it what you want!

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Maybe the manager position is a higher paid role than DOF/Academy Director (although don't we have 2 DOFs?!) and Lowe thought he could shoe horn Wotte in on a lower wage when Jan f*cked up?! (whether Jan's fault or a combination of tampering, as well as poor management? and interference!)

 

Your probably right, but that wasnt Eelpie's point. He said JP was employed because he was cheaper.

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Maybe the manager position is a higher paid role than DOF/Academy Director (although don't we have 2 DOFs?!) and Lowe thought he could shoe horn Wotte in on a lower wage when Jan f*cked up?! (whether Jan's fault or a combination of tampering, as well as poor management? and interference!)

 

Makes no odds if the DoF/academy director is paid less or not if your employing both of them!

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Makes no odds if the DoF/academy director is paid less or not if your employing both of them!

 

But maybe Wotte would have commanded more than Jan in the higher paid position of manager because he had more experience than Jan (which wasn't hard!) so it kept costs ever so slightly by putting Wotte in a lesser role. It may have been peanuts but it is Rupert Lowe we're talking about. It's tough getting money out of this man at charity auctions!!

 

After all, the line Wotte peddled about "not wanting the role..." made me suspicious (but maybe that's my naturally suspicious mind!)

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But maybe Wotte would have commanded more than Jan in the higher paid position of manager because he had more experience than Jan (which wasn't hard!) so it kept costs ever so slightly by putting Wotte in a lesser role. It may have been peanuts but it is Rupert Lowe we're talking about. It's tough getting money out of this man at charity auctions!!

 

After all, the line Wotte peddled about "not wanting the role..." made me suspicious (but maybe that's my naturally suspicious mind!)

 

 

So why would Wotte take the job as assistant to someone not as good as him on less money than his market value?

 

This is just conspiracy nonsense using the oldest conspiracy theory trick in the book - wait for stuff to happen then fit the conspiracy around it going backwards.

 

Jan got the job to coach the first team, Wotte came in to oversee and assist, Jan was failing and had to go before someone from the Northam knocked him out, now Wotte has the job.

 

It's not a conspiracy. It's one rubbish manager being replaced, for the sake of continuity with another rubbish manager. Oh well.

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So why would Wotte take the job as assistant to someone not as good as him on less money than his market value?

 

This is just conspiracy nonsense using the oldest conspiracy theory trick in the book - wait for stuff to happen then fit the conspiracy around it going backwards.

 

Jan got the job to coach the first team, Wotte came in to oversee and assist, Jan was failing and had to go before someone from the Northam knocked him out, now Wotte has the job.

 

It's not a conspiracy. It's one rubbish manager being replaced, for the sake of continuity with another rubbish manager. Oh well.

 

Still doesn't add up, Wotte has stated if the club had picked him 3 years ago he'd of taken the job. Lowe has gone on record saying he wanted Wotte to take the job, so why, 3 years down the line not give him the job? Why employ him as reserve manager and employ a complete no one as head coach. The money thing does not add up either, if Lowe had just appointed Jan then yes, ok, but to employ both don't do it!

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Still doesn't add up, Wotte has stated if the club had picked him 3 years ago he'd of taken the job. Lowe has gone on record saying he wanted Wotte to take the job, so why, 3 years down the line not give him the job? Why employ him as reserve manager and employ a complete no one as head coach. The money thing does not add up either, if Lowe had just appointed Jan then yes, ok, but to employ both don't do it!

wotte was due to come in with ces loc 3 years ago...so I should add up..

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Still doesn't add up, Wotte has stated if the club had picked him 3 years ago he'd of taken the job. Lowe has gone on record saying he wanted Wotte to take the job, so why, 3 years down the line not give him the job? Why employ him as reserve manager and employ a complete no one as head coach. The money thing does not add up either, if Lowe had just appointed Jan then yes, ok, but to employ both don't do it!

 

Lowe wanted Wotte because he is still committed to the SCW strategy legacy. But maybe Wotte is really a bottler who doesn't really want to be seen to be in sole charge, and was quite happy to be take his money without being in the hot seat. With Henderson and Hockaday having been doing stuff, just wotte was Wotte actually contributing? Maybe his commitment and ability is now being put under some scrutiny, not before time I would suggest. I think "someone" has told Mr Mark Time that it's time to earn his salary.

 

The whole thing is a bit wierd, and does not auger well IMO, with Wotte now talking about possible 4-2-4 and more experience being required, as if he has played absolutely no part in the "experiment" whatsoever. And if that change in direction fails, it will be "the fans asked for these changes and it didn't work". RL has his excuse again, but if results improve, Lowe takes the credit for the appointment. Not quite a no lose option for RL, but maybe as close as he can get to one at the moment.

 

With DH growing his vegetables, there clearly has been one big bust-up behind the scenes (probably about unclear roles), the truth of which has yet to emerge.

Edited by hughieslastminutegoal
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JP was the front man but the whole strategy and guiding light was Wotte. He was Managing advising in a dual role with the beast and Rupert.

 

The change should have been total...Wotte can not be seperated from what has gone before. Does not make sense to me......Lowey has never made sense to be honest...

 

 

Question ........ Six matches from now, and we are still firmly in the bottom three ........ WHAT ... sorry, WOTTE does Lowelife do then ???

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I still don't see an answer as to why Wotte went from front runner for manager to being a number 2. If Wotte had come in as a number 2 to Cruyff then I could understand it, but he came in as a number 2 to Jan.

 

I doubt Lowe is this clever, but perhaps he thought he'd bring in Jan to coach whilst he was offloading all and sundry and we would inevitably find it tough going, then when we had reached rock bottom and had to sack the manager he'd bring in Wotte as his saviour.

 

This theory falls flat on its arse as Lowe still gets the blame for bringing in the failing JP in the first place, for selling off the players, and for sacking yet another manager. Besides its in Lowes best interest for the side to do well so he is going to employ the best available manager he can afford (and we know Wotte is cheap as he came anyway) - so long as they were not brought in by previous chairman!

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I still don't see an answer as to why Wotte went from front runner for manager to being a number 2. If Wotte had come in as a number 2 to Cruyff then I could understand it, but he came in as a number 2 to Jan.

 

I doubt Lowe is this clever, but perhaps he thought he'd bring in Jan to coach whilst he was offloading all and sundry and we would inevitably find it tough going, then when we had reached rock bottom and had to sack the manager he'd bring in Wotte as his saviour.

 

This theory falls flat on its arse as Lowe still gets the blame for bringing in the failing JP in the first place, for selling off the players, and for sacking yet another manager. Besides its in Lowes best interest for the side to do well so he is going to employ the best available manager he can afford (and we know Wotte is cheap as he came anyway) - so long as they were not brought in by previous chairman!

 

I don't think what I said above is far from the truth:

 

"But maybe Wotte is really a bottler who doesn't really want to be seen to be in sole charge, and was quite happy to be take his money without being in the hot seat."

 

I think Lowe might be beginning to see the light about him and has made him step up to the plate. VERY risky strategy tho.

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Appoint Gorrey or even The Beast, kimmey..will work eventually especially when we play, Salisbury, Eastleigh or Dorchester.

 

 

Regretably, my friend ......... not too far away from the realms of possibility ........... but, the weakness of your argument is that you are asuming that Salisbury, Eastleigh and Dorchester don'y move UP ..........

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Lowe wanted Wotte because he is still committed to the SCW strategy legacy. But maybe Wotte is really a bottler who doesn't really want to be seen to be in sole charge, and was quite happy to be take his money without being in the hot seat. With Henderson and Hockaday having been doing stuff, just wotte was Wotte actually contributing? Maybe his commitment and ability is now being put under some scrutiny, not before time I would suggest. I think "someone" has told Mr Mark Time that it's time to earn his salary.

 

The whole thing is a bit wierd, and does not auger well IMO, with Wotte now talking about possible 4-2-4 and more experience being required, as if he has played absolutely no part in the "experiment" whatsoever. And if that change in direction fails, it will be "the fans asked for these changes and it didn't work". RL has his excuse again, but if results improve, Lowe takes the credit for the appointment. Not quite a no lose option for RL, but maybe as close as he can get to one at the moment.

 

With DH growing his vegetables, there clearly has been one big bust-up behind the scenes (probably about unclear roles), the truth of which has yet to emerge.

 

Could be but isn't the RL/SCW philosophy that any decent coach with the right (i.e Dutch) credentials is OK for the first team provided the proper management structure is in place to provide a never ending stream of new young talent for selection? If so, Wotte's original position as Academy Director is crucial to the whole operation and the fact that no one has yet been appointed to replace him might mean the experiment is well and truly over.

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The success of the 1st team is everything in a football club , to lose sight of his basic truth shows just how deeply out of touch with the game of football the Chairman has become .

 

That's always been Lowe's downfall IMO. We could see that years ago in the Prem - we shuold have invested in the first team but he invested in the youth instead. His appointment of Wigley to provide continuity between youth and first team with his vision of bringing the kids through then was the start of our downfall that season and IMO the main factor amongst many that lead to our relegation.

 

History repeating itself? I wonder if Duncan would agree?

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Maybe that Wotte prefered not to fill the shoes of a popular manager and thought it better to let someone else make the initial transition from an antiquated system that is failing football clubs the world round to what will surely be the blue print for success and in the summer will with out doubt be adopted by teams from the sunday league to national teams.

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Maybe that Wotte prefered not to fill the shoes of a popular manager and thought it better to let someone else make the initial transition from an antiquated system that is failing football clubs the world round to what will surely be the blue print for success and in the summer will with out doubt be adopted by teams from the sunday league to national teams.

 

 

What system is failing football the world over??

 

Every team worth its salt have an academy, teams up and down the country are promoting the youth (when ready). Lowe billed our system as "seamless" said all the teams (academy, u-18, reserves and first team) would play together, play the same system, same tactics, same formation so we could take any member of any team and they'd fit straight in, seamless. Now we've got the ex-reserve/academy coach saying "we'll play experience" and "we'll play 4-4-2" and "Jan was to rigid", which is it? one minute we're all part of the same team, one vision etc, next minute when things aren't working its all Jan "our new man has already changed training". We've also already had 2 senior players in tonights echo saying"change was needed"

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