Gender in Sport (Split)

[AlexLaw76]

 

[trousers]

17 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

 

Difficult one.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif

"Khelif is not transgender, but has a disorder of sex development (DSD), which causes some females to have XY chromosomes and blood testosterone levels typical of a male"

[The Kraken]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Difficult one.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif

"Khelif is not transgender, but has a disorder of sex development (DSD), which causes some females to have XY chromosomes and blood testosterone levels typical of a male"

I don’t think it’s that difficult, the IOC seem to have dropped the ball in terms of setting the entry requirements. Banned by the IBA for the world championships but the IOC went for much watered down rules for entry to ensure consistency of qualification between Olympic cycles.

[saint francis]

Yeah I had great sympathy with Caster Semenya (also intersex) a few years back when she was told she had to take testosterone reducing drugs in order to compete against other women - in a sport which does everything to enforce doping rules and discourage drug use.  Should she have been competing against other women though?  No, not in my opinion due to her obviously male physique (excluding the fanny).  Same for this boxer.  

Edited August 1 by saint francis

[The Cat]

[benjii]

Isn't it just a butch bird? They've always been knocking about.

[ecuk268]

29 minutes ago, benjii said:

Isn't it just a butch bird? They've always been knocking about.

Fatima Whitbread for one.

[Colinjb]

14 hours ago, The Cat said:

I understand the point the Italian boxer was trying to make. But, Khalif is not someone obviously transgender individual invading the competition. She has a chromosomal disorder which puts her biology in question. 

Khalif is not invincible. 

The debate needs to happen, but for me the Italian comes out of this quite poorly. She did not give the fight the respect it needed and got hurt then used that injury as a major point for discussion. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Colinjb said:

I understand the point the Italian boxer was trying to make. But, Khalif is not someone obviously transgender individual invading the competition. She has a chromosomal disorder which puts her biology in question. 

Khalif is not invincible. 

The debate needs to happen, but for me the Italian comes out of this quite poorly. She did not give the fight the respect it needed and got hurt then used that injury as a major point for discussion. 

What debate needs to happen? Khalif has XY chromosones and is biologically male. It may be the case that they have believed their whole life that they are a woman but sadly for Khalif they have DSD and should not be competing against women. Unfortunately if you are one of the tiny minority of people who have this condition then you can't compete in the female category at the olympics. They have my sympathy for their unfortunate circumstance but there really isn't any debate to be had. 

[Colinjb]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What debate needs to happen? Khalif has XY chromosones and is biologically male. It may be the case that they have believed their whole life that they are a woman but sadly for Khalif they have DSD and should not be competing against women. Unfortunately if you are one of the tiny minority of people who have this condition then you can't compete in the female category at the olympics. They have my sympathy for their unfortunate circumstance but there really isn't any debate to be had. 

Her Phenotype does not match her Genotype, that is true. But, that did not give Khalif a dangerous advantage. 9 defeats in 40. She is not stupidly overpowered despite the seeming genetic advantage available. I hope to be wrong, but Carini is playing politics, poorly. 

There absolutely is a debate to be had. Biology is not as simple as just the Genotype in this case, how individuals like this are handled needs to be sensitively considered. Carini's melodrama (Which clearly had the desired effect) is too crude a way to approach this.

Edited August 2 by Colinjb

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Colinjb said:

Her Phenotype does not match her Genotype, that is true. But, that did not give Khalif a dangerous advantage. 9 defeats in 40. She is not stupidly overpowered despite the seeming genetic advantage available. I hope to be wrong, but Carini is playing politics, poorly. 

There absolutely is a debate to be had. Biology is not as simple as just the Genotype in this case, how individuals like this are handled needs to be sensitively considered. 

Of course we need to be sensitive to these individuals. It certainly isn't their fault. That's not the same thing as having a debate though. Khlaif was banned due to unacceptably high levels of testosterone because Khalif is a man. How many times they have been beaten isn't particularly relevant. A mediocre man could get frequently beaten by a world class woman but it still doesn't mean they should be competing with them. What debate are you saying needs to be had?

[Colinjb]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Of course we need to be sensitive to these individuals. It certainly isn't their fault. That's not the same thing as having a debate though. Khlaif was banned due to unacceptably high levels of testosterone because Khalif is a man. How many times they have been beaten isn't particularly relevant. A mediocre man could get frequently beaten by a world class woman but it still doesn't mean they should be competing with them. What debate are you saying needs to be had?

Khalif is not male in terms of her Phenotype. She does not have the male equipment. She is male in terms of her Genotype only. Outright saying that Khalif is a man is incorrect. 

Further to this, from those within the sport as quoted by Steve Bunce, who knows more about Boxing then either of us ever will......

Quote

What's interesting is in the build-up to the fight, some of her old opponents, good fighters, world champions and European champions, have said [Khelif] is not a cheat.

She's not a devastating puncher. That is only her fifth stoppage.

Carini - I feel for her absolutely, but you have to feel a little bit for Khelif, she's stuck in the middle of something here that's absolutely devastating

 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Of course we need to be sensitive to these individuals. It certainly isn't their fault. That's not the same thing as having a debate though. Khlaif was banned due to unacceptably high levels of testosterone because Khalif is a man. How many times they have been beaten isn't particularly relevant. A mediocre man could get frequently beaten by a world class woman but it still doesn't mean they should be competing with them. What debate are you saying needs to be had?

Is this therefore a genuine case of a "man" having a cervix ?

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Is this therefore a genuine case of a "man" having a cervix ?

If they have a cervix. Quite likely they have a micropenis too. Unfortunately a tiny minority of people have a DSD condition and they need to be sensitively handled but if they are biologically male with all the advantages that that gives them including raised testosterone levels then they can't compete with women. It's not that complicated. 

[hypochondriac]

13 minutes ago, Colinjb said:

Khalif is not male in terms of her Phenotype. She does not have the male equipment. She is male in terms of her Genotype only. Outright saying that Khalif is a man is incorrect. 

Further to this, from those within the sport as quoted by Steve Bunce, who knows more about Boxing then either of us ever will......

 

Again, being an average biologically male boxer that gets beaten by women doesn't mean that they should then be allowed to compete with biological females. I don't follow Bunce's logic. He seems to be saying that Khalif isn't a cheat because they don't punch hard. That doesn't mean they aren't gaining an unfair advantage from their male biology and high testosterone levels. 

Khalif looking like a woman -slightly anyway- doesn't make someone a woman. Certainly not for the purposes of sport anyway and particularly a dangerous sport like boxing. On a separate note- what evidence do we have here that Khalif only has female genitalia? 

Edited August 2 by hypochondriac

[Colinjb]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Again, being an average biologically male boxer that gets beaten by women doesn't mean that they should then be allowed to compete with biological females. I don't follow Bunce's logic. He seems to be saying that Khalif isn't a cheat because they don't punch hard. That doesn't mean they aren't gaining an unfair advantage from their male biology and high testosterone levels. 

Khalif looking like a woman -slightly anyway- doesn't make someone a woman. Certainly not for the purposes of sport anyway and particularly a dangerous sport like boxing. On a separate note- what evidence do we have here that Khalif only has female genitalia? 

It's not Bunce's logic. It's the logic of Khalif's female opponents. They are saying Khalif is not a cheat.

Her reputation of not being a powerful puncher is just incidental and supportive of that.

Edited August 2 by Colinjb

[hypochondriac]

16 minutes ago, Colinjb said:

It's not Bunce's logic. It's the logic of Khalif's female opponents. They are saying Khalif is not a cheat.

Her reputation of not being a powerful puncher is just incidental and supportive of that.

It wasn't the logic of the latest female opponent. Anyway, I'm not sure why it matters if Khalif's opponents or a pundit considers Khalif to not be a cheat or not. If Khalif is biologically male and receives the advantages from that- which it seems that Khalif does- then they shouldn't be competing in the womans category at the Olympics. What Khalif's opponents think or if they are or are not a cheat is an irrelevance. 

Edited August 2 by hypochondriac

[Sheaf Saint]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It wasn't the logic of the latest female opponent. Anyway, I'm not sure why it matters if Khalif's opponents or a pundit considers Khalif to not be a cheat or not. If Khalif is biologically male and receives the advantages from that- which it seems that Khalif does- then they shouldn't be competing in the womans category at the Olympics. What Khalif's opponents think or if they are or are not a cheat is an irrelevance. 

You keep repeating this claim that Khalif is 'biologically male', but she* isn't. She is intersex, which means that strictly speaking she is neither male nor female. I recommend you watch this TED talk to better appreciate the medical struggles faced by intersex people (who make up 1.6% of the global population).

* - you keep referring to her as 'they', but that is not her preferred pronouns. I don't know if this is born out of genuine ignorance or if you are being deliberately obtuse, but either way it is disrespectful.

[hypochondriac]

14 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

You keep repeating this claim that Khalif is 'biologically male', but she* isn't. She is intersex, which means that strictly speaking she is neither male nor female. I recommend you watch this TED talk to better appreciate the medical struggles faced by intersex people (who make up 1.6% of the global population).

* - you keep referring to her as 'they', but that is not her preferred pronouns. I don't know if this is born out of genuine ignorance or if you are being deliberately obtuse, but either way it is disrespectful.

A person with XY chromosones is biologically male. Interesting video about Emily Quinn. Emily Quinn looks and presents as a female but has a disorder so they are still biologically male and should not be competing in the womens category at the Olympic games either. Beyond that they should be treated fairly as everyone else. Someone could present as a female but it doesn't change their biology. Quite basic stuff. I don't use preferred pronouns as they are a nonsense invention. How many sexes are there?

Edited August 2 by hypochondriac

[badgerx16]

46 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

A person with XY chromosones is biologically male. Interesting video about Emily Quinn. Emily Quinn looks and presents as a female but has a disorder so they are still biologically male and should not be competing in the womens category at the Olympic games either. Beyond that they should be treated fairly as everyone else. Someone could present as a female but it doesn't change their biology. Quite basic stuff. I don't use preferred pronouns as they are a nonsense invention. How many sexes are there?

Should she be competing as a male athlete ? Presumably, after all the medical tests it has been established that Khalif at least exhibits all the external physical attributes of a female. Would it be appropriate to force her to use male changing rooms and compete as such ? How would male competitors feel ?

Edited August 2 by badgerx16

[Sheaf Saint]

29 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I don't use preferred pronouns as they are a nonsense invention. 

This tells me all I need to know. Thanks.

[trousers]

34 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

This tells me all I need to know. Thanks.

At least you know where you are with Hypo. She always sticks by her guns

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Should she be competing as a male athlete ? Presumably, after all the medical tests it has been established that Khalif at least exhibits all the external physical attributes of a female. Would it be appropriate to force her to use male changing rooms and compete as such ? How would male competitors feel ?

Of course. If good enough Khalif should be competing with other biological men. No other biological men will be at a sporting disadvantage. Not sure why this is difficult.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

This tells me all I need to know. Thanks.

No problem. I'd prefer to deal with facts. So called preferred pronouns will often put you in a position where you have to lie by saying something that you know to be untrue. If I decided to put a dress on I shouldn't then expect everyone in society to refer to me as she and a woman just as an anorexic person shouldn't expect everyone to call them fat just because it might affirm the image they have about themselves. 

If I met someone on a personal level then out of courtesy I may refer to them as he or she depending on the situation but when dealing with important issues like sport it is important to be particularly precise and clear about definitions and muddying the waters doesn't help and ends up with biological men beating up women and calling it sport. 

[Colinjb]

17 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No problem. I'd prefer to deal with facts.

That you are calling Khalif 'Biologically Male' shows that do not.

Her Phenotype is female.

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, Colinjb said:

That you are calling Khalif 'Biologically Male' shows that do not.

Her Phenotype is female.

Someone with xy chromosomes is biologically male. It's not trying to be offensive to Khalif it's just a fact. Like I said they may present as a female but they are still biologically male. Fact. 

Edited August 2 by hypochondriac

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Someone with xy chromosomes is biologically male. It's not trying to be offensive to Khalif it's just a fact. Like I said they may present as a female but they are still biologically male. Fact. 

No. Someone with XY chromosomes AND the appropriate morphological attributes and genitalia is "biologically" male.

[Colinjb]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Someone with xy chromosomes is biologically male. It's not trying to be offensive to Khalif it's just a fact. Like I said they may present as a female but they are still biologically male. Fact. 

No. You are wrong in this case. She is physically female. To make a sweeping statement on her sex you need Geno and Phenotype to match. For her this is not the case. 

Edited August 2 by Colinjb

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Colinjb said:

No. You are wrong in this case. She is physically female. To make a sweeping statement on her sex you need Geno and Phenotype to match. For her this is not the case. 

No. Biologically you are either male or female. You may have a disorder which means you present differently as in this case but biologically they are still male. Painful for This athlete to hear no doubt but that's the case and is why there has been such outrage. 

[badgerx16]

https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/biological-sex-and-gender-united-states

"A person’s biological sex usually refers to their status as female or male depending on their chromosomes, reproductive organs, and other characteristics. Chromosomes are tightly packed DNA, or molecules that contain the genetic instructions for the development and functioning of all living things. Humans typically have forty-six chromosomes. Two of those are sex chromosomes that contain instructions for the development and functioning of characteristics related to biological sex, such as reproductive organs. There are two kinds of human sex chromosomes, X and Y. Individuals identified as males tend to have one X and one Y chromosome, while those identified as females tend to have two X chromosomes. However, other people are born with other chromosome combinations, such as XXY, that lead them to develop a mix of characteristics. People who fit that description are often referred to as intersex, a category for people whose bodies do not conform with stereotypical expectations of males or females at birth."

 

 

Edited August 2 by badgerx16

[Sheaf Saint]

13 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Someone with xy chromosomes is biologically male. It's not trying to be offensive to Khalif it's just a fact. Like I said they may present as a female but they are still biologically male. Fact. 

It's not fact. And your repeated doubling down in this only makes you look foolish.

Typically, people with XY chromosomes will be male, but in some rare cases (such as Swyer syndrome), this is not true. 

Khalif was registered as female when she was born, due to the outward presence of female organs, and was raised as a girl. As a result, she identifies as female. Therefore, your continued insistence that she is male and referring to her as 'they' is monumentally twattish.

As to whether or not she should be competing in female sports is another debate, but it is far from being as black and white as you make out.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

It's not fact. And your repeated doubling down in this only makes you look foolish.

Typically, people with XY chromosomes will be male, but in some rare cases (such as Swyer syndrome), this is not true. 

Khalif was registered as female when she was born, due to the outward presence of female organs, and was raised as a girl. As a result, she identifies as female. Therefore, your continued insistence that she is male and referring to her as 'they' is monumentally twattish.

As to whether or not she should be competing in female sports is another debate, but it is far from being as black and white as you make out.

Swyer syndrome is when a biological man has a disorder so they present as outwardly female despite being biologically male. If Khalif had this disorder then logically they would be brought up and raised as a female. They're still biologically male though and shouldn't be competing in women's sports. 

[badgerx16]

 Nature is not cut and dried when it comes to gender; turtle and alligator eggs hatch male or female young depending on the incubation temperature, some frogs, crabs, and fish can change gender depending on environmental factors.

 

What we do not know in this case is how Khalif presents morphologically, but it can be assumed that she appears to all intents and purposes to be female. There are other biological signals, such as menstruation, that would add weight to an argument, but that is unlikely to ever become public.

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

 Nature is not cut and dried when it comes to gender; turtle and alligator eggs hatch male or female young depending on the incubation temperature, some frogs, crabs, and fish can change gender depending on environmental factors.

 

What we do not know in this case is how Khalif presents morphologically, but it can be assumed that she appears to all intents and purposes to be female. There are other biological signals, such as menstruation, that would add weight to an argument, but that is unlikely to ever become public.

Who mentioned gender? Also human beings are not turtles or frogs. 

Edited August 2 by hypochondriac

[Sheaf Saint]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Swyer syndrome is when a biological man has a disorder so they present as outwardly female despite being biologically male. 

Wrong again.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/

"Girls with Swyer syndrome have an XY chromosomal makeup (as boys normally do) instead of an XX chromosomal makeup (as girls normally do). Despite having the XY chromosomal makeup, girls with Swyer syndrome look female and have functional female genitalia and structures including a vagina, uterus and fallopian tubes."

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Also human beings are not turtles or frogs. 

No ? Fuck ! And there's me with a biology degree.

Edited August 2 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

13 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Wrong again.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/

"Girls with Swyer syndrome have an XY chromosomal makeup (as boys normally do) instead of an XX chromosomal makeup (as girls normally do). Despite having the XY chromosomal makeup, girls with Swyer syndrome look female and have functional female genitalia and structures including a vagina, uterus and fallopian tubes."

Yes. They look female but are biologically male. Sorry it upsets you. 

[hypochondriac]

17 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Wrong again.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/

"Girls with Swyer syndrome have an XY chromosomal makeup (as boys normally do) instead of an XX chromosomal makeup (as girls normally do). Despite having the XY chromosomal makeup, girls with Swyer syndrome look female and have functional female genitalia and structures including a vagina, uterus and fallopian tubes."

What is a woman? 

[aintforever]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Yes. They look female but are biologically male. Sorry it upsets you. 

"Girls with Swyer syndrome"

[Sheaf Saint]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Yes. They look female but are biologically male. Sorry it upsets you. 

It doesn't upset me. You're just wrong, and evidently completely unwilling to acknowledge that.

[badgerx16]

This is all getting a bit Professor Higgins;

 

[hypochondriac]

12 minutes ago, aintforever said:

"Girls with Swyer syndrome"

Yes. A biological male who describes themselves and is described by others as a girl because outwardly they present as one. 

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

It doesn't upset me. You're just wrong, and evidently completely unwilling to acknowledge that.

What is a woman? 

[aintforever]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Yes. A biological male who describes themselves and is described by others as a girl because outwardly they present as one. 

So what you are saying then is that it is wrong to say only women have a cervix?

Edited August 2 by aintforever

[Colinjb]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

So what you are saying then is that it is not correct to say only women have a cervix?

Or even grow children in their fully functioning Uterus it would seem.

[Colinjb]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

No. Biologically you are either male or female. 

False, it's why this is such a good debate.

You are demonstrably wrong to make such a sweeping statement. 

Edited August 2 by Colinjb

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, Colinjb said:

False, it's why this is such a good debate.

You are demonstrably wrong to make such a sweeping statement. 

Assume you'll be advocating for an X on passports. Clown world. 

[Colinjb]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Assume you'll be advocating for an X on passports. Clown world. 

Resorting to such things like this such be beneath you. But, if you wish to firebomb your position go badly. Carry on.

What was the old adage about arguing with an idiot.......?

Edited August 2 by Colinjb

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Colinjb said:

Resorting to such things like this such be beneath you. But, if you wish to firebomb your position go badly. Carry on.

What is a woman? 

[Colinjb]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

What is a woman? 

Not as simple as an XY chromosome.