The Reform Thread

[sadoldgit]

On 24/10/2025 at 18:24, John B said:

Reform swaggered into Caerphilly, ready for a coronation. An unpleasant surprise lay in store thank god

They will do well elsewhere though judging by the amount of Union and St George’s flags that have appeared on street furniture and motorway bridges recently. Both Tory candidates in adjacent constituencies were kicked out at the last election for Labour but they would go to Reform now.

Fortunately there is still plenty of time left for people to realise what a mistake that would be and for Labour to reclaim some ground. The next Budget will be another vote loser but it looks like they are finally prepared to grasp the Brexit nettle and are talking about the financial hit to our economy the leaving of the EU has cost us. This is a cost that we all have to pay sadly, not just those who voted for it. At some point it must dawn of those that we were comprehensively lied to by Farage and Johnson. If they don’t want to vote Labour there are still half decent other parties to vote for or independents. Do we (by we I mean normal, decent people not the nuckledraggers who actually think that these people care about them) really want a poor man’s Trump here doing to us what he is doing to the US?

[Gloucester Saint]

1 hour ago, Wade Garrett said:

Because between Starmer, Truss, Johnson, May, Cameron and Brown they have done a terrible job running the country.  
 

Agreed on the above, but still no excuse for people to vote for this rabble of conspiracy theories, unfounded attack on the RNLI and all round dreadful behaviour https://northeastbylines.co.uk/news/politics/chaos-engulfs-reform-uk-in-northumberland/

Same for every council they control includes the astonishing proceedings video in Kent https://theconversation.com/kent-county-council-is-reforms-shop-window-its-leaked-zoom-call-implies-chaos-and-poor-leadership-267900

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7pe443lp5o

[Wade Garrett]

6 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Agreed on the above, but still no excuse for people to vote for this rabble of conspiracy theories, unfounded attack on the RNLI and all round dreadful behaviour https://northeastbylines.co.uk/news/politics/chaos-engulfs-reform-uk-in-northumberland/

Same for every council they control includes the astonishing proceedings video in Kent https://theconversation.com/kent-county-council-is-reforms-shop-window-its-leaked-zoom-call-implies-chaos-and-poor-leadership-267900

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7pe443lp5o

I agree.  I like their policies on illegal immigration but the rest doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

That said, I can understand why people are turning to them.  

[tdmickey3]

Racist does not condemn another Racist, no real surprise

Nigel Farage has said Reform MP Sarah Pochin's remark that adverts are "full" of black and Asian people was "ugly" - but that it wasn't "racist" due to the context it was made in. The Reform leader said he would have acted had he believed the intention behind the comment was racist.

[hypochondriac]

57 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

Racist does not condemn another Racist, no real surprise

Nigel Farage has said Reform MP Sarah Pochin's remark that adverts are "full" of black and Asian people was "ugly" - but that it wasn't "racist" due to the context it was made in. The Reform leader said he would have acted had he believed the intention behind the comment was racist.

In what way is that racist? It's an odd thing to get overly upset about but it's also quite absurd that mixed race couples are in basically every advert. It does rather give the impression that advertisers are worried about portraying white families for fear of being criticised and see something wrong with being white. 

[badgerx16]

26 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

In what way is that racist? It's an odd thing to get overly upset about but it's also quite absurd that mixed race couples are in basically every advert. It does rather give the impression that advertisers are worried about portraying white families for fear of being criticised and see something wrong with being white. 

I think it is that they don't want any ethnic group to feel left out, and their then being accused of exclusion, probably influenced by the social environment of the people workimg in advertising.

I'm not sure Pochin would have got quite such a severe reaction if she hadn't said that "It drives me mad.....".

Edited Monday at 16:26 by badgerx16

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

I think it is that they don't want any ethnic group to feel left out, and their then being accused of exclusion, probably influenced by the social environment of the people workimg in advertising.

There is full acknowledgement that you will never see a cast like that in Friends again. At the time you just laughed, or not, and didn’t say why isn’t there a black or gay New Yorker 

[whelk]

29 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

In what way is that racist? It's an odd thing to get overly upset about but it's also quite absurd that mixed race couples are in basically every advert. It does rather give the impression that advertisers are worried about portraying white families for fear of being criticised and see something wrong with being white. 

I agree and whilst many in this party are no doubt racist bastards, this often is the case that so much hyperbole over something that can be explained that doesn’t signify overt racism. Damages the cause when desperation to see racism everywhere. Works for the right and is in the Trump playbook as see the other side get hysterical

[Gloucester Saint]

10 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

I think it is that they don't want any ethnic group to feel left out, and their then being accused of exclusion, probably influenced by the social environment of the people workimg in advertising.

I'm not sure Pochin would have got quite such a severe reaction if she hadn't said that "It drives me mad.....".

Quite, if she’d said ‘I’d feel patronised if I were from an ethnic minority in this country by what advertisers are doing, it’s tokenistic’, I think a majority of people including me would have actually agreed with her.

Instead, she went down the ‘It Drives me Mad line’, all those black faces, poor whites etc’  following Murdoch’s channel’s caller down the racist rabbit hole. She’s had prior form for racism as well so if it she mis-spoke as a one-off.

Edited Monday at 16:34 by Gloucester Saint

[hypochondriac]

20 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

I think it is that they don't want any ethnic group to feel left out, and their then being accused of exclusion, probably influenced by the social environment of the people workimg in advertising.

I'm not sure Pochin would have got quite such a severe reaction if she hadn't said that "It drives me mad.....".

For me it's in the small things that irritate you camp. I expect it's advertisers trying to avoid a social media pile on or a pepsisowhite hashtag. But of a tactical error from reform though because you knew the government would be all over it.

[Gloucester Saint]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

For me it's in the small things that irritate you camp. I expect it's advertisers trying to avoid a social media pile on or a pepsisowhite hashtag. But of a tactical error from reform though because you knew the government would be all over it.

So they should be, Lib Dem’s were as well, and Tories if they had a vaguely competent leader and deputy (not saying Starmer and Davey are all that either, but Kemi is desperate straits for them). Long may Sarah Pochin give gifts. 

Good article here showing data that more voters believe Reform is an openly racist party  than was the case in 2024, which added to their plagiarism of MAGA’s crazy anti-abortion views is leaving them wide open for tactical voting as we’ve seen in Wales and Scotland https://www.ft.com/content/c09d5494-9c0c-480e-8f2b-73635d86e76a

They should have won Runcorn by more considering the former Labour MP actually punched a constituent on the high street!

Window of opportunity for the Tories to revive somewhat to be the primary centre right option again if they ditch Badenoch/Estate Agent Bob and elect a centre right pro-business leader free of the 2016-22 taint. 

Edited Monday at 18:48 by Gloucester Saint
Voting

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Gloucester Saint said:

So they should be, Lib Dem’s were as well, and Tories if they had a vaguely competent leader and deputy (not saying Starmer and Davey are all that either, but Kemi is desperate straits for them). Long may Sarah Pochin give gifts. 

Good article here showing data that more voters believe Reform is an openly racist party  than was the case in 2024, which added to their plagiarism of MAGA’s crazy anti-abortion views is leaving them wide open for tactical voting as we’ve seen in Wales and Scotland https://www.ft.com/content/c09d5494-9c0c-480e-8f2b-73635d86e76a

They should have won Runcorn by more considering the former Labour MP actually punched a constituent on the high street!

Window of opportunity for the Tories to revive somewhat to be the primary centre right option again if they ditch Badenoch/Estate Agent Bob and elect a centre right pro-business leader free of the 2016-22 taint. 

No one is voting for a Rory Stewart and Anna soubry approved right leaning centrist.

Edited Monday at 20:28 by hypochondriac

[Gloucester Saint]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

No one is voting for a Rory Stewart and Anna soubry approved right leaning centrist.

They’re more like Liberal Democrat’s. I had Jeremy Hunt or Andy Street type figures in mind. Sunak got the job too early and at the wrong time. Good interview with the Times but behind a paywall. He clearly doesn’t want to cause Badenoch any issues but clearly irritated by some of the greasy estate agent corrupt Bob’s recent comments. If people don’t want to re-elect Labour and won’t give a Remain party enough seats, I know I can live a decent life under them. Reform are just a MAGA tribute with nationalism and white supremacism running through them. Abortion limits, key agencies ransacked, companies relying on exports going pop, social care system collapsing, skilled jobs slashed, educational standards down the toilet. Brexit gap making the economy far worse again. 

Edited Monday at 21:33 by Gloucester Saint

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

They’re more like Liberal Democrat’s. I had Jeremy Hunt or Andy Street type figures in mind. Sunak got the job too early and at the wrong time. Good interview with the Times but behind a paywall. He clearly doesn’t want to cause Badenoch any issues but clearly irritated by some of the greasy estate agent corrupt Bob’s recent comments. If people don’t want to re-elect Labour and won’t give a Remain party enough seats, I know I can live a decent life under them. Reform are just a MAGA tribute with nationalism and white supremacism running through them. Abortion limits, key agencies ransacked, companies relying on exports going pop, social care system collapsing, skilled jobs slashed, educational standards down the toilet. Brexit gap making the economy far worse again. 

Surely you agree that abortion limits should exist?

[Gloucester Saint]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Surely you agree that abortion limits should exist?

24 weeks as an upper limit although with the summer legislation, it will no longer be an enforcement matter beyond that. Not sure I agreed with that but very dangerous from Farage - up to 24 weeks is a long held consensus and he’s merely cosying up to MAGA benefactors https://news.sky.com/story/nigel-farage-says-it-is-utterly-ludicrous-to-allow-abortion-up-to-24-weeks-13375431

I’m pro choice for our women on the whole, as conservatives (small c) overall used to be in a more sensible era, and 24 weeks is a compromise. To threaten to reduce that considerably is backfiring thankfully and hopefully will continue to do so https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/reform-anti-abortion-us-movement-farage-b2832865.html

Not a coincidence either that a headbanger like Maria Caulfield defected there recently nor Mad Nads.

Edited Monday at 21:48 by Gloucester Saint

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

24 weeks as an upper limit although with the summer legislation, it will no longer be an enforcement matter beyond that. Not sure I agreed with that but very dangerous from Farage - up to 24 weeks is a long held consensus and he’s merely cosying up to MAGA benefactors https://news.sky.com/story/nigel-farage-says-it-is-utterly-ludicrous-to-allow-abortion-up-to-24-weeks-13375431

I’m pro choice for our women on the whole, as conservatives (small c) overall used to be in a more sensible era, and 24 weeks is a compromise. To threaten to reduce that considerably is backfiring thankfully and hopefully will continue to do so https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/reform-anti-abortion-us-movement-farage-b2832865.html

Not a coincidence either that a headbanger like Maria Caulfield defected there recently nor Mad Nads.

Did he threaten to reduce it considerably? It looked like he was expressing a personal view. Personally I'd also find it difficult to support 24 weeks given that someone close to me was born at that point but I understand it's a very complex issue with no correct answer. Anyway from your link above it sounds fairly conclusive to me:

"The party does not have a stance on abortion. We consider it an issue of conscience, and our members and representatives hold a diverse range of views. Reform UK has no intention of making changes to the current abortion laws."

 

[whelk]

5 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Did he threaten to reduce it considerably? It looked like he was expressing a personal view. Personally I'd also find it difficult to support 24 weeks given that someone close to me was born at that point but I understand it's a very complex issue with no correct answer. Anyway from your link above it sounds fairly conclusive to me:

"The party does not have a stance on abortion. We consider it an issue of conscience, and our members and representatives hold a diverse range of views. Reform UK has no intention of making changes to the current abortion laws."

 

Are Reform going to get your vote?

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Are Reform going to get your vote?

Not sure tbh. I think it's too far away from an election to make a definitive choice. I certainly won't be voting labour or Conservative. Like the last few elections it will be the party I dislike the least.

[sadoldgit]

This is what you are voting for if you vote Reform.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/reform-wheels-out-danny-kruger-the-brains-of-nigel-farage-s-operation/ar-AA1PmFz7?cvid=6901bf9870144b899d1787f31fee4aa0&ocid=hpmsn

[Sir Ralph]

2 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

This is what you are voting for if you vote Reform.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/reform-wheels-out-danny-kruger-the-brains-of-nigel-farage-s-operation/ar-AA1PmFz7?cvid=6901bf9870144b899d1787f31fee4aa0&ocid=hpmsn

From the Guardian so not exactly balanced

[badgerx16]

10 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

From the Guardian so not exactly balanced

True. But Kruger has said that part of his grand plan to reorganise Government is to shut down 6 agencies...........

 

which the Cabinet Office has already slated to be shut down.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

This is what you are voting for if you vote Reform.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/reform-wheels-out-danny-kruger-the-brains-of-nigel-farage-s-operation/ar-AA1PmFz7?cvid=6901bf9870144b899d1787f31fee4aa0&ocid=hpmsn

More articles from the Guardian slagging the government off?

[egg]

3 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

From the Guardian so not exactly balanced

People often criticise the source when an article is correct but differs from their views.

In what way is it wrong? 

[Sir Ralph]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

People often criticise the source when an article is correct but differs from their views.

In what way is it wrong? 

I havent read the article and dont know enough about the subject to be honest. Its a very sarcastic article which leads me to believe the author is biased on the matter. Its not very balanced. The Guardian is biased, as is the Telegraph, on such matters which is why I take what it says with a bit of a pinch of salt and wouldnt quote either when making a point.

Edited yesterday at 10:42 by Sir Ralph

[egg]

Just now, Sir Ralph said:

I havent read the article and dont know enough about the subject to be honest. The Guardian is biased, as is the Telegraph, on such matters which is why I take what it says with a bit of a pinch of salt and wouldnt quote either when making a point.

Pretty daft to knock an article that you haven't read. 

[Sir Ralph]

10 minutes ago, egg said:

Pretty daft to knock an article that you haven't read. 

I said I dont believe it has significant merit because of the source. If I quoted a Daily Mail article I suspect you wouldnt read it (and I agree with that). Having read it its very sarcastic so I believe the author is biased. Its also quite subjective. If the Telegraph wrote this I would take the same view. Its childish journalism.

The authors Wiki page is here and he sounds like a BSer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Crace_(writer)

The only discernible information about him is the following so he has an anti - Reform agenda before (I'm not necessarily a Reform supporter), which further supports my view aout the quality of the Guardian  if it lets people like this write in it: In July 2019, The Guardian retracted statements by Crace implying that right-wing political journalist Isabel Oakeshott had obtained confidential files by having sex with Nigel Farage and Arron Banks. His article included the claim that Oakeshott only got confidential emails if Farage and Banks "slips it to her". Following the threat of legal action by Oakeshott, the text was amended to: "leave it conveniently tucked under her pillow". This second revision was then removed, with the final version stating: "if he or Arron Banks leave it conveniently to one side for her". Oakeshott stated: "It gives me great pleasure to teach ⁦John Crace⁩ and The ⁦Guardian a little lesson about casually slurring women whose politics they dislike".^[8] 

Edited yesterday at 10:52 by Sir Ralph

[egg]

A friend of mine was intending to stand as a Reform candidate. He came to his senses today and resigned his membership. He's posted this:

"I have today resigned from Reform UK

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that our country is in urgent need of significant reform, I find myself unable to reconcile my personal beliefs with the direction the party has recently taken. In particular, I cannot condone the ongoing and relentless barracking of local councils, which has escalated into a level of rhetoric so intense that it has fostered an environment where individuals are genuinely fearful for their safety. Such conduct is, in my view, wholly unacceptable and detrimental to the principles of respectful political discourse.

Although I sincerely wish Reform UK every success in its future endeavours, I must express my deep concern that the recent behaviour exhibited does not serve the best interests of local communities, nor does it align with my values. This disconnect has compelled me to step away from the party, as I believe that our focus should remain on addressing the pressing local issues with integrity and civility.

I remain committed to working towards the betterment of our society, albeit through different avenues"

Hopefully more decent people will see the party for what it is. 

 

[egg]

21 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

I said I dont believe it has significant merit because of the source. If I quoted a Daily Mail article I suspect you wouldnt read it (and I agree with that). Having read it its very sarcastic so I believe the author is biased. Its also quite subjective. If the Telegraph wrote this I would take the same view. Its childish journalism.

The authors Wiki page is here and he sounds like a BSer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Crace_(writer)

The only discernible information about him is the following so he has an anti - Reform agenda before (I'm not necessarily a Reform supporter), which further supports my view aout the quality of the Guardian  if it lets people like this write in it: In July 2019, The Guardian retracted statements by Crace implying that right-wing political journalist Isabel Oakeshott had obtained confidential files by having sex with Nigel Farage and Arron Banks. His article included the claim that Oakeshott only got confidential emails if Farage and Banks "slips it to her". Following the threat of legal action by Oakeshott, the text was amended to: "leave it conveniently tucked under her pillow". This second revision was then removed, with the final version stating: "if he or Arron Banks leave it conveniently to one side for her". Oakeshott stated: "It gives me great pleasure to teach ⁦John Crace⁩ and The ⁦Guardian a little lesson about casually slurring women whose politics they dislike".^[8] 

I'll do a you and presume that's bollox and save my time. 

[Sir Ralph]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

I'll do a you and presume that's bollox and save my time. 

Its ok - I copied and pasted it for you. If you think that guy is a serious journalist then good luck to you. If you want to take your opinions from people like that then its legitimate to question your opinion on such matters as they are informed by dunces.

Edited yesterday at 11:12 by Sir Ralph

[Sir Ralph]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

A friend of mine was intending to stand as a Reform candidate. He came to his senses today and resigned his membership. He's posted this:

"I have today resigned from Reform UK

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that our country is in urgent need of significant reform, I find myself unable to reconcile my personal beliefs with the direction the party has recently taken. In particular, I cannot condone the ongoing and relentless barracking of local councils, which has escalated into a level of rhetoric so intense that it has fostered an environment where individuals are genuinely fearful for their safety. Such conduct is, in my view, wholly unacceptable and detrimental to the principles of respectful political discourse.

Although I sincerely wish Reform UK every success in its future endeavours, I must express my deep concern that the recent behaviour exhibited does not serve the best interests of local communities, nor does it align with my values. This disconnect has compelled me to step away from the party, as I believe that our focus should remain on addressing the pressing local issues with integrity and civility.

I remain committed to working towards the betterment of our society, albeit through different avenues"

Hopefully more decent people will see the party for what it is. 

 

Thats fine - I have my doubts about Reform and their ability to govern too. The question is who is a credible alternative. Labour are not.

Edited yesterday at 11:12 by Sir Ralph

[benjii]

2 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Thats fine - I have my doubts about Reform and their ability to govern too. The question is who is a credible alternative. Labour are not.

Greens?

[Farmer Saint]

6 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Thats fine - I have my doubts about Reform and their ability to govern too. The question is who is a credible alternative. Labour are not.

You think Reform, who have never governed, have a snake oil salesman as leader (and you have said multiple times you supported staying in the EU), has no-one who knows anything about governing a country apart from that chancer Kruger, and you still think they are more credible than Labour?

If you were a Remainer you would not vote for Reform. 110%.

Who do you think are credible parties for the next election? Assume the Tory's aren't in there under Badenoch as no-one thinks they're credible.

Edited yesterday at 17:54 by Farmer Saint

[aintforever]

Whoever governs is still going to have the same issues, we all knew we were going to have to pay for the Pandemic and suffer from the effects of Brexit. Labour haven’t had a great start but I would still trust over the Tories or Reform.

[sadoldgit]

7 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Thats fine - I have my doubts about Reform and their ability to govern too. The question is who is a credible alternative. Labour are not.

To state the obvious, as Labour is currently in power it cannot be a credible alternative to itself. Also stating the obvious, they have only been in government for just over a year and have another four years to go. As much as they haven’t set the world alight so far, to right them off so early is patently ridiculous, especially given the state that the Tories left the country in after 14 years of misrule. Starmer himself has said it will take two terms - ten years - to repair the damage done.

As for Reform, let me give you a couple of quotes from the past from people who know something about totalitarianism /populism. 

This from Hannah Arendt from her 1951 book The Origins of Totalitarianism, “The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction no longer exists.”

And this from a certain Leon Trotsky, “When the political curve goes down, stupidity dominates social thinking. Once the forces of reaction predominate, so reason gives way to insults and prejudice.”

We are seeing this happen in real time in the US under Trump and it is happening here, according to the polls, with more and more people giving their support to Reform (you can add the current Tory Party to that as Badenoch and the likes of Jenrick and Lam fall under the same category).

At the moment only Labour, the LibDems and the Greens along with some independents are not on this particularly slippery slope. 
 

[Sir Ralph]

23 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

To state the obvious, as Labour is currently in power it cannot be a credible alternative to itself. Also stating the obvious, they have only been in government for just over a year and have another four years to go. As much as they haven’t set the world alight so far, to right them off so early is patently ridiculous, especially given the state that the Tories left the country in after 14 years of misrule. Starmer himself has said it will take two terms - ten years - to repair the damage done.

As for Reform, let me give you a couple of quotes from the past from people who know something about totalitarianism /populism. 

This from Hannah Arendt from her 1951 book The Origins of Totalitarianism, “The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction no longer exists.”

And this from a certain Leon Trotsky, “When the political curve goes down, stupidity dominates social thinking. Once the forces of reaction predominate, so reason gives way to insults and prejudice.”

We are seeing this happen in real time in the US under Trump and it is happening here, according to the polls, with more and more people giving their support to Reform (you can add the current Tory Party to that as Badenoch and the likes of Jenrick and Lam fall under the same category).

At the moment only Labour, the LibDems and the Greens along with some independents are not on this particularly slippery slope. 
 

I appreciate this is a considered response but I can quote people who might suggest the current government falls within some unsavoury categories.

Your conclusion seems to suggest that anyone to the right falls within this category but parties to the left dont, which I cant agree with. So far we can only go on Labour's record to date and even you are saying they havent been great - I think they have been pony, so record to date is all we can go on. The Greens have mad policies that would be destructive economically and for our reducing status in the world (I might as well vote for the Monster Raving Looney party). The Lib Dems have limited experience in Government and I'm not sure how they are any more credible than Reform in terms of experience.

The fact is the three you have mentioned are shite, as are the rest of the parties. They all have shortcomings and its essentially voting for the least shite one which aligns with your values. 

Edited yesterday at 19:30 by Sir Ralph

[Sir Ralph]

5 hours ago, benjii said:

Greens?

The worst option of all the parties. Absolutely mental. Polanski is an 'eco-populist' and whilst he might think his policies are cool, the capitalist market that the western world works within will not. The markets will freak out if he gets in and that is bad news for all of us and our national debt. If he ever got in, I think very, very quickly, without him even doing anything, people will realise it was a bad move.

There is a reason why its mainly kids with a lack of life experience that are supporting them (mainly supported by under 24's). On the face of it, their policies are lovely and I can see why people might thinks its a great idea to vote for them but we live in the real world. The saying is 'if it seems too good to be true, it probably is' applies to them.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/798031/can-you-really-think-your-boobs-bigger/

Edited yesterday at 19:41 by Sir Ralph

[sadoldgit]

14 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

I appreciate this is a considered response but I can quote people who might suggest the current government falls within some unsavoury categories.

Your conclusion seems to suggest that anyone to the right falls within this category but parties to the left dont, which I cant agree with. So far we can only go on Labour's record to date and even you are saying they havent been great - I think they have been pony, so record to date is all we can go on. The Greens have mad policies that would be destructive economically and for our reducing status in the world (I might as well vote for the Monster Raving Looney party). The Lib Dems have limited experience in Government and I'm not sure how they are any more credible than Reform in terms of experience.

The fact is the three you have mentioned are shite, as are the rest of the parties. They all have shortcomings and its essentially voting for the least shite one which aligns with your values. 

I quoted Trotsky, I don’t think that he could be referred to a being on the right! I would apply the same criticism to Labour if they were behaving in the same manner as Reform or Badenoch’s Tories.

Here is another couple of quotes for you to think about.

”The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy.”  Elon Musk

”The death of human empathy is one of the earliest and most telling signs of a culture about to fall into barbarism.”  Hannah Arendt.

There are a few people on here who would agree with Musk, especially those who put laughing emojis on posts about dead women and children.

Unless you agree with Musk I would argue that, whatever you think of Labour, they are still a far better option than either Reform or the current Tory Party. I notice that you don’t mention the LibDems as an option. Why is that? Not Musky enough for you maybe?

What really saddens me is the number of people saying that they are fed up with the main parties and want to give Farage a chance, as if he hadn’t done enough damage to this country already with his Brexit campaign! They see what is happening in the US and fancy some of that over here, God help us.

If you still aren’t convinced that the worst of all options is a vote for Reform, take a look at the mess they are making of running the Kent County Council. 

If you think that Labour are “pony” you really have no idea how bad things could get under other parties.
 

Edited 12 hours ago by sadoldgit

[Sir Ralph]

56 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I quoted Trotsky, I don’t think that he could be referred to a being on the right! I would apply the same criticism to Labour if they were behaving in the same manner as Reform or Badenoch’s Tories.

Here is another couple of quotes for you to think about.

”The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy.”  Elon Musk

”The death of human empathy is one of the earliest and most telling signs of a culture about to fall into barbarism.”  Hannah Arendt.

There are a few people on here who would agree with Musk, especially those who put laughing emojis on posts about dead women and children.

Unless you agree with Musk I would argue that, whatever you think of Labour, they are still a far better option than either Reform or the current Tory Party. I notice that you don’t mention the LibDems as an option. Why is that? Not Musky enough for you maybe?

What really saddens me is the number of people saying that they are fed up with the main parties and want to give Farage a chance, as if he hadn’t done enough damage to this country already with his Brexit campaign! They see what is happening in the US and fancy some of that over here, God help us.

If you still aren’t convinced that the worst of all options is a vote for Reform, take a look at the mess they are making of running the Kent County Council. 

If you think that Labour are “pony” you really have no idea how bad things could get under other parties.
 

I think your posts makes some reasonable points.

However I think that being overly empathetic is why we have some of the issues we have now. Empathy is a good thing in principle (obviously) but blind empathy is naive. The reason why we have illegal immigration issues, a bloated welfare state and social issues linked to the prevalence of trans matters and other Woke promotion (BLM etc) is because of an over sensitivity and being overly empathetic to people who promote hard agendas around these issues and benefit from them. What we should have is a more balanced view which is empathetic yet takes a real world view to the potential implications of excessive adherence to these philosophies without challenging them and the negative social impact that they can have. That is one of the key reasons why people are kicking back and are minded to vote for Reform because there is a cultural disconnect between voters and the main parties in respect to a lot of these issues. I’m pretty certain that if the Woke agenda hadn’t gathered so much attention and support among some on the left (including the media) Farage would not be performing half as well as he is doing.

Edited 11 hours ago by Sir Ralph