Footballs Financial shame

[Turkish]

Very interesting programme on right now about a group to 90s footballers who got fleeced by an investment company called Kingbridge. One of them our very own Rod Wallace

One thing I’m glad off is that it exposes HMRC for the ruthless, money grabbing bunch of wankers they are. If this was a private company there would be laws brought it to stop their bullying behaviour which has driven people to suicide 

Edited Tuesday at 21:41 by Turkish

[Andrew Watson]

The multi millionaires and billionaires could put an end to HMRC tactics by paying  their fair share of tax  [ instead of transfering it to offshore tax havens ] They are a greedy load of -------- . Timeshare drove people to suicide with their threats, a company my late mother and I visited in 2010 wanted £5000.00 to get rid of mums two timeshares,we both walked out in disgust.

[Turkish]

Maybe someone can explain this to me as I don’t get it

you earn money which you pay tax on. You then invest that money but lose it. How do you then get a massive tax bill which drives to you bankruptcy? You’ve already paid tax on the money invested and have lost it all, not made any profit from it, which whilst I don’t agree with it can understand why you might be taxed on the profit 

[Andrew Watson]

Turkish I have PM ed  you.

[Patrick Bateman]

9 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Maybe someone can explain this to me as I don’t get it

you earn money which you pay tax on. You then invest that money but lose it. How do you then get a massive tax bill which drives to you bankruptcy? You’ve already paid tax on the money invested and have lost it all, not made any profit from it, which whilst I don’t agree with it can understand why you might be taxed on the profit 

Because it appears that HMRC changed the rules on the tax exemption status of these investments and then retrospectively pursued "missing tax".  It's not the first time the rules have been changed and then HMRC have retrospectively pursued people - plenty of contractors in normal work have felt that too.

It's like driving at 70mph on a motorway, having your numberplate photo taken with the date and time, then a year later the speed limit being reduced to 50mph and them deciding that you did 70 once, so you must pay a fine.  That's how I take it anyway, I might be wrong, but I do feel sorry for them. 

[Andrew Watson]

Thanks for the reply Turkish.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Andrew Watson said:

Thanks for the reply Turkish.

You’re welcome llss

[verlaine1979]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

Maybe someone can explain this to me as I don’t get it

you earn money which you pay tax on. You then invest that money but lose it. How do you then get a massive tax bill which drives to you bankruptcy? You’ve already paid tax on the money invested and have lost it all, not made any profit from it, which whilst I don’t agree with it can understand why you might be taxed on the profit 

Isnt the point that most of these film schemes in the 90s and early 2000s engaged in dubious shenanigans with borrowed money to create large paper losses that got immediate tax relief and could be used to offset tax on any other income?

[East Kent Saint]

I think the players were conned into these very risky tax dodging investments by a firm that used football people to persuade these players into their schemes . The football people were paid to do this . The 2 men that ran the firm still claim they did nothing wrong and it was up to the players wether they took the risk ! The HMRC could see that is was a tax dodge and eventually won their case which went badly for the players not the investment firm which is annoying .

[bangkoksaint]

7 hours ago, Turkish said:

Very interesting programme on right now about a group to 90s footballers who got fleeced by an investment company called Kingbridge. One of them our very own Rod Wallace

One thing I’m glad off is that it exposes HMRC for the ruthless, money grabbing bunch of wankers they are. If this was a private company there would be laws brought it to stop their bullying behaviour which has driven people to suicide 

Yes. HMRC and Post Office Investigations are at times cut from the same cloth

[ant]

In one of the worlds I'm more familiar with (beer), shady folks posing as consultants advised breweries to claim tax relief for each new recipe, under the guise of research & development.

Once HMRC caught on, they (quite correctly) claimed that simply changing the types and amounts of hops & malt, the water profile etc. didn't constitute R&D. Eventually clawing back the dodged tax. 

By the time this happened, the 'consultants' had unsurprisingly disappeared. No consequences for them; everything landing on the breweries. I imagine this is a common hustle across all sorts of industries.

Is this not more similar to what's happened to the footballers than the speeding analogy? In that the driving at 70mph would have to have been an attempted circumvention of road laws, or exploitation of a loophole.

I.e. Kingsbridge set the players up with a loophole they shouldn't really have been using - with all of the risk on the individuals.

[SW11_Saint]

A sobering watch. Really felt for the players - most of whom are now broke (Rod Wallace is bankrupt and lost his home), have mental health issues and, for some, addiction. One unnamed player almost took his own life, and many of them considered it. 

Edited Wednesday at 06:00 by SW11_Saint

[westmidlandsaint]

Was an interesting watch indeed. Also interesting to see Romsey & Southampton North MP Caroline Noakes taking up their plight after it was highlighted by one of her constituents who has been effected by this "fraud". Wonder who the constituent was?

[Turkish]

43 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

A sobering watch. Really felt for the players - most of whom are now broke (Rod Wallace is bankrupt and lost his home), have mental health issues and, for some, addiction. One unnamed player almost took his own life, and many of them considered it. 

The reason he didn't was particularly sobering. He thought if he killed himself it would rid his wife and family of the debt, but it wouldnt have, the debt would have transferred to his wife. They said this was the only reason he didnt.

[egg]

I haven't watched it yet, but have read about it. 

For me this highlights a few issues. 

I've worked with top flight players, and have met with them and their agents. These guys put a ridiculous amount of trust and faith in their agents, and any other outside advisors, most all but working on a "just tell me what to do and I'll do it" basis. Sadly, there's a lot of naivety, generally. 

There's also a bit of a herd mentality, and if one player who is seen as savvy does something that sounds like a good idea, others follow. 

If anyone, or firm, gets a decent name in the game, the good word spreads and they'll clean up. I've even known it with the brokers that source high end cars for players, get one player at a club and sort them out, you'll get the rest, then when that lad moves and has an influence in the changing room, then you get players from his next club. 

Putting aside the rights and wrongs of tax avoidance schemes ( but, 1. if you play with fire you get burnt, 2. if it sounds too good to be true, it is), I can imagine these guys were told this was the best thing to do, saw other people doing it, and followed the herd. 

At the end of the day, the lives of people who've followed advice from people who owed them a duty of care have been massively affected. 

Very sad carry on. 

 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, egg said:

I haven't watched it yet, but have read about it. 

For me this highlights a few issues. 

I've worked with top flight players, and have met with them and their agents. These guys put a ridiculous amount of trust and faith in their agents, and any other outside advisors, most all but working on a "just tell me what to do and I'll do it" basis. Sadly, there's a lot of naivety, generally. 

There's also a bit of a herd mentality, and if one player who is seen as savvy does something that sounds like a good idea, others follow. 

If anyone, or firm, gets a decent name in the game, the good word spreads and they'll clean up. I've even known it with the brokers that source high end cars for players, get one player at a club and sort them out, you'll get the rest, then when that lad moves and has an influence in the changing room, then you get players from his next club. 

Putting aside the rights and wrongs of tax avoidance schemes ( but, 1. if you play with fire you get burnt, 2. if it sounds too good to be true, it is), I can imagine these guys were told this was the best thing to do, saw other people doing it, and followed the herd. 

At the end of the day, the lives of people who've followed advice from people who owed them a duty of care have been massively affected. 

Very sad carry on. 

 

This is exactly what happened. I wont ruin it for you as very interesting and sad program but they got a few respected names on board and suddenly they were all at it with the "just tell me what to do and i'll do it" attitude like you say. The guys running the company befriended them, there were pictures of them with players at their weddings and so they put all their trust in them. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, bangkoksaint said:

Yes. HMRC and Post Office Investigations are at times cut from the same cloth

The 2 situations are not remotely comparable. 

 

[Farmer Saint]

9 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Because it appears that HMRC changed the rules on the tax exemption status of these investments and then retrospectively pursued "missing tax".  It's not the first time the rules have been changed and then HMRC have retrospectively pursued people - plenty of contractors in normal work have felt that too.

It's like driving at 70mph on a motorway, having your numberplate photo taken with the date and time, then a year later the speed limit being reduced to 50mph and them deciding that you did 70 once, so you must pay a fine.  That's how I take it anyway, I might be wrong, but I do feel sorry for them. 

Not quite, it's like driving along a motorway with no speed signs, and your passenger saying you can drive at 100mph, and then being retrospectively fined for going over 70mph.

It's all a type of tax avoidance.

Edited Wednesday at 07:29 by Farmer Saint

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Not quite, it's like driving along a motorway with no speed signs, and your passenger saying you can drive at 100mph, and then being retrospectively fined for going over 70mph.

It's all a type of tax avoidance.

Tax avoidance is of course legal. 

[Farmer Saint]

4 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Tax avoidance is of course legal. 

Yes, but can also be recovered by HMRC.

[Saint86]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Tax avoidance is of course legal. 

As our dear deputy prime minister is ofc counting on to keep her job 😄

[OldNick]

3 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Tax avoidance is of course legal. 

Avoidance sounds like cheating 

[OldNick]

16 hours ago, Turkish said:

Very interesting programme on right now about a group to 90s footballers who got fleeced by an investment company called Kingbridge. One of them our very own Rod Wallace

One thing I’m glad off is that it exposes HMRC for the ruthless, money grabbing bunch of wankers they are. If this was a private company there would be laws brought it to stop their bullying behaviour which has driven people to suicide 

Where can we watch this Turks?

[LordHester]

15 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Where can we watch this Turks?

On iPlayer here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m002d2kp/footballs-financial-shame-the-story-of-the-v11

[Yorkshire Saint]

Interesting watch - dangerous precedents.

[SaintsLoyal]

This is merely one of many cases involving footballers and tax avoidance and they reap what they sow.

The same goes for all ther other shysters, that get involved in tax avoidance schemes.

 

Edited Wednesday at 18:17 by SaintsLoyal

[Oldandtired]

11 hours ago, Turkish said:

This is exactly what happened. I wont ruin it for you as very interesting and sad program but they got a few respected names on board and suddenly they were all at it with the "just tell me what to do and i'll do it" attitude like you say. The guys running the company befriended them, there were pictures of them with players at their weddings and so they put all their trust in them. 

Would it not also be fair to say that a percentage of footballers aren’t the sharpest tools in the box, have a lot of money at a ridiculously young age and so are easy prey for whatever predators are hanging around them

[Toadhall Saint]

They (the V11) are victims of the crime of fraud. The outcome of that fraud means they are liable in some cases for millions in unpaid tax. It’s like someone beating the crap out of someone and then the victim gets a bill to pay the criminals court costs after the criminal has walked away Scot free - not sure that is justice in my mind. The fact that they are or were high profile footballers has got nothing to do with it other than helping to high light this type of injustice. 

[Badger]

3 hours ago, Oldandtired said:

Would it not also be fair to say that a percentage of footballers aren’t the sharpest tools in the box, have a lot of money at a ridiculously young age and so are easy prey for whatever predators are hanging around them

Shame they don’t employ agents to help guide them. But of course they do already.

Although no one would expect agents to be tax experts to guide their clients, you’d hope at the very least they’d point their client in the direction of legitimate tax advisers rather than those operating questionable (shams) schemes. 

[VectisSaint]

4 hours ago, SaintsLoyal said:

This is merely one of many cases involving footballers and tax avoidance and they reap what they sow.

The same goes for all ther other shysters, that get involved in tax avoidance schemes.

 

Bear in mind that most of this happened 20-30 years ago, to players who were wealthy, yes, but not the super-wealthy players of today. They were the victims of fraud. The players were not on the face of it doing anything wrong, but they were badly advised, mostly by the people who were setting up the shady schemes. One of the problems is that they relied on the judgement of their football managers. Howard Wilkinson in particular does not come out of it very well. It is quite sad to see some of these guys really now on their uppers when they should have been made for life. I suppose it hits home hardest knowing one of them is one of our former favourites. There are clearly several/many other players involved who presumably do not want to be publicly recognised. 

[Whitey Grandad]

8 hours ago, OldNick said:

Avoidance sounds like cheating 

If it's lawful how can it be cheating?

[Osvaldorama]

On 02/09/2025 at 22:53, Andrew Watson said:

The multi millionaires and billionaires could put an end to HMRC tactics by paying  their fair share of tax  [ instead of transfering it to offshore tax havens ] They are a greedy load of -------- . Timeshare drove people to suicide with their threats, a company my late mother and I visited in 2010 wanted £5000.00 to get rid of mums two timeshares,we both walked out in disgust.

The problem isn’t the millionaires and billionaires who create jobs and wealth and grow the economy. 
 

The problem is the government wasting our money and the countless scroungers. 
 

Tax is theft - even the current government think so (at least when it’s their money. They are more than happy to steal everyone else’s though.)

Edited yesterday at 06:33 by Osvaldorama

[egg]

16 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

The problem isn’t the millionaires and billionaires who create jobs and wealth and grow the economy. 
 

The problem is the government wasting our money and the countless scroungers. 
 

Tax is theft - even the current government think so (at least when it’s their money. They are more than happy to steal everyone else’s though.)

I can't agree with any of that, and it's irrelevant to the issue of these footballers. 

Tax isn't theft. It's necessary. Some people seek to avoid paying it, and others seek to evade it. The latter is closer to theft than tax itself. 

How the government spend the money is a separate issue.

 

[Osvaldorama]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

I can't agree with any of that, and it's irrelevant to the issue of these footballers. 

Tax isn't theft. It's necessary. Some people seek to avoid paying it, and others seek to evade it. The latter is closer to theft than tax itself. 

How the government spend the money is a separate issue.

 

Wrong. The government steals from the productive, and distributes it to the unproductive, in a completely unsustainable way. 
 

When income tax was first introduced it was 3%

And it was temporary

Now it’s up to 45%, & permanent

Plus VAT, corp tax, NI, CGT, stamp duty, council tax…

It’s all a scam

[egg]

Ok mate. If you believe tax is theft and a scam, the discussion is pointless. I spose the government should just spend away, with minimal tax, and the world would be lovely. Bizarre. 

[Osvaldorama]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Ok mate. If you believe tax is theft and a scam, the discussion is pointless. I spose the government should just spend away, with minimal tax, and the world would be lovely. Bizarre. 

Plenty of well performing countries have way lower taxes than the UK. 

 

The idea that we can’t reduce taxes by a large amount and still have a better performing country is a nonsense. The government wastes billions and billions. 

Government spending is out of control, and they blame wealthy people instead of fixing it. 

[egg]

Just now, Osvaldorama said:

Plenty of well performing countries have way lower taxes than the UK. 

 

The idea that we can’t reduce taxes by a large amount and still have a better performing country is a nonsense. The government wastes billions and billions. 

Government spending is out of control, and they blame wealthy people instead of fixing it. 

You weren't calling for lower taxes, you said it's theft and a scam. Completely different. 

Anyways, this is a thread about a specific issue, not your opinion about the merits of paying tax. 

[Osvaldorama]

13 minutes ago, egg said:

You weren't calling for lower taxes, you said it's theft and a scam. Completely different. 

Anyways, this is a thread about a specific issue, not your opinion about the merits of paying tax. 

It is a scam, currently. 

Even the government that creates the rules seem to think that it’s not worth paying. And she hasn’t resigned either so clearly she’s endorsing her previous behaviour. 
 

Socialism in a nutshell: take from thee but not from me 

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, egg said:

I can't agree with any of that, and it's irrelevant to the issue of these footballers. 

Tax isn't theft. It's necessary. Some people seek to avoid paying it, and others seek to evade it. The latter is closer to theft than tax itself. 

How the government spend the money is a separate issue.

 

You can't steal your own money.

Government taxation is legalised daylight robbery. 

[egg]

14 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

You can't steal your own money.

Government taxation is legalised daylight robbery. 

Mate, please take any "tax ain't fair" complaint to the lounge or the ballot box. The issue re these footballers goes way beyond the merits or otherwise of paying tax. 

[OldNick]

12 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

Bear in mind that most of this happened 20-30 years ago, to players who were wealthy, yes, but not the super-wealthy players of today. They were the victims of fraud. The players were not on the face of it doing anything wrong, but they were badly advised, mostly by the people who were setting up the shady schemes. One of the problems is that they relied on the judgement of their football managers. Howard Wilkinson in particular does not come out of it very well. It is quite sad to see some of these guys really now on their uppers when they should have been made for life. I suppose it hits home hardest knowing one of them is one of our former favourites. There are clearly several/many other players involved who presumably do not want to be publicly recognised. 

I heard  snippet from Simon Jordan that when he was chairman of Palace the players trusted their agents to give them good advice as they were not clued up. He said the agents took a back hander from the car dealers when they got them cars and wouldsit in a meeting with the player about wages and then talk to him on the side saying if yougive me 50k then he woud advise the player to take a wage (lower than he could get)

Agents are slimeballs

[East Kent Saint]

4 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

Wrong. The government steals from the productive, and distributes it to the unproductive, in a completely unsustainable way. 
 

When income tax was first introduced it was 3%

And it was temporary

Now it’s up to 45%, & permanent

Plus VAT, corp tax, NI, CGT, stamp duty, council tax…

It’s all a scam

How you doing in your tent in the woods ?

[Whitey Grandad]

19 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

How you doing in your tent in the woods ?

He's waiting for a boat across to Dover.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Mate, please take any "tax ain't fair" complaint to the lounge or the ballot box. The issue re these footballers goes way beyond the merits or otherwise of paying tax. 

It's all a question of degree. Make all tax 5% and nobody would bother trying to avoid it. At 80% nobody wants to pay it.

[Osvaldorama]

1 hour ago, East Kent Saint said:

How you doing in your tent in the woods ?

I’d be doing a lot better without those incompetent, corrupt wankers stealing all of my money:

 

[tdmickey3]

8 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

I’d be doing a lot better without those incompetent, corrupt wankers stealing all of my money:

 

Childish

[Toadhall Saint]

Just now, tdmickey3 said:

Childish

And nothing to do with what this is about but hey axes to grind and all that.

[tdmickey3]

Just now, Toadhall Saint said:

And nothing to do with what this is about but hey axes to grind and all that.

Yep, all a bit sad

[East Kent Saint]

1 hour ago, Osvaldorama said:

I’d be doing a lot better without those incompetent, corrupt wankers stealing all of my money:

 

 

[East Kent Saint]

Just now, East Kent Saint said:

 

Yes good to see total misinformation is the new standard for "free speech"

Amusing to see Farage called out in the USA as well 😄