Fitness in the Modern Game (Split)

[The Wyvern]

1 hour ago, Football Special said:

Tonda and the data boys don't want our players to miss minutes through injury,  they'd rather they missed minutes preventing injury 

This bizarre modern day football thing that has been made up that people call a “three game week”, like playing three games over eight days is some exceptional event to be overcome. 

[Football Special]

3 hours ago, The Wyvern said:

This bizarre modern day football thing that has been made up that people call a “three game week”, like playing three games over eight days is some exceptional event to be overcome. 

Agree it does my head in, they approach playing matches with trepidation,  oh no it's a 3 game week, how will we manage. 

Work on getting the players fitter Saints and it might not be so daunting 

[saintant]

1 minute ago, Football Special said:

Agree it does my head in, they approach playing matches with trepidation,  oh no it's a 3 game week, how will we manage. 

Work on getting the players fitter Saints and it might not be so daunting 

Same with substitutions. The medical science guys are pouring over the stats from these vests the players wear and the data extracted is used to decide when a substitution is needed. Seems like overkill to me - unless he clearly can hardly run another step why not just let the player take a breather and keep him on the pitch especially if he's someone crucial? We have brought groups of players off too early and lost momentum and thrown away points in the process too often. Not enough old school common sense being applied in my book. 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Football Special said:

Agree it does my head in, they approach playing matches with trepidation,  oh no it's a 3 game week, how will we manage. 

Work on getting the players fitter Saints and it might not be so daunting 

Get fit by playing matches. 

[die Mannyschaft]

1 hour ago, Football Special said:

Agree it does my head in, they approach playing matches with trepidation,  oh no it's a 3 game week, how will we manage. 

Work on getting the players fitter Saints and it might not be so daunting 

Over tactical and too much decision making resulting in wrong team and players selected then compounded by 5 subs

[danjosaint]

1 hour ago, Football Special said:

Agree it does my head in, they approach playing matches with trepidation,  oh no it's a 3 game week, how will we manage. 

Work on getting the players fitter Saints and it might not be so daunting 

MLG hat on, its not actually 3 games in a week

[Badger]

5 hours ago, The Wyvern said:

This bizarre modern day football thing that has been made up that people call a “three game week”, like playing three games over eight days is some exceptional event to be overcome. 

Wonder how the current generation of players and coaches would have coped in the old days with three games in four days over Easter.

Wenger, Klopp and Pep would shit themselves at that prospect.  

[Football Special]

33 minutes ago, Badger said:

Wonder how the current generation of players and coaches would have coped in the old days with three games in four days over Easter.

Wenger, Klopp and Pep would shit themselves at that prospect.  

In the 1993/94 PREMIER LEAGUE season i went to Saints v Chelsea on 27th December followed by Manchester City v Saints 28th December,  marvellous stuff 

[Badger]

1 hour ago, Football Special said:

In the 1993/94 PREMIER LEAGUE season i went to Saints v Chelsea on 27th December followed by Manchester City v Saints 28th December,  marvellous stuff 

1980:

Boxing Day - Spurs away 4-4

Dec 27th Leicester home won 3-1.

Not too much rotation. And only one substitute,so no bringing 3 of them off at 65 minutes.

Most players involved in both as I recall. Several probably got pissed when they got back from Spurs as well. 
 

Then there was 1978:

Sat - League Cup final

Monday - Arsenal FA Cup at home 1-1 

Weds/Thursday Arsenal - replay (lost)

Sat - played some other bastards I suspect but can’t look it up at the minute 

[OttawaSaint]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

1980:

Boxing Day - Spurs away 4-4

Dec 27th Leicester home won 3-1.

Not too much rotation. And only one substitute,so no bringing 3 of them off at 65 minutes.

Most players involved in both as I recall. Several probably got pissed when they got back from Spurs as well. 
 

Then there was 1978:

Sat - League Cup final

Monday - Arsenal FA Cup at home 1-1 

Weds/Thursday Arsenal - replay (lost)

Sat - played some other bastards I suspect but can’t look it up at the minute 

Just looked it up. Sat was vs Bolton away, lost 2-0.

[saintant]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

Wonder how the current generation of players and coaches would have coped in the old days with three games in four days over Easter.

Wenger, Klopp and Pep would shit themselves at that prospect.  

Yeah and on heavy pitches that sapped the stamina - not like today's immaculate carpets they play on. Game has gone soft - too much science and data now for my liking. 

[sadoldgit]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

Wonder how the current generation of players and coaches would have coped in the old days with three games in four days over Easter.

Wenger, Klopp and Pep would shit themselves at that prospect.  

The games are a lot more demanding physically now. The players run further for longer. Full backs didn’t venture past the half way line and wingers didn’t track back. There was no press. Players had time for a breather. Games didn’t last much more than 90 minutes.  The pitches were cabbage patches but the ball didn’t travel so quickly. You could waste time by passing the ball back to the goalkeeper numerous times. There is a reason that squads are bigger and more subs are allowed now and that is because the game is physically tougher.

Edited 19 hours ago by sadoldgit

[Oh no Mick Mills]

1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

The games are a lot more demanding physically now. The players run further for longer. Full backs didn’t venture past the half way line and wingers didn’t track back. There was no press. Players had time for a breather. Games didn’t last much more than 90 minutes.  The pitches were cabbage patches but the ball didn’t travel so quickly. You could waste time by passing the ball back to the goalkeeper numerous times. There is a reason that squads are bigger and more subs are allowed now and that is because the game is more demanding.

Thanks, saved me posting the same thing....in the good old days blah blah blah. 

[Badger]

2 minutes ago, Oh no Mick Mills said:

Thanks, saved me posting the same thing....in the good old days blah blah blah. 

Some fair points SOG raises re level of fitness and player’s roles. Disagree about full backs though, David Peach and Ivan Golac were often playing advanced positions. Wingers, yes,  could be  lazy fuckers.

I know which era was generally more entertaining and exciting to watch though even if it is seen through sepia tinted specs with a dose of nostalgia thrown in. 

[Lighthouse]

The game hasn't gone soft, it's quite clearly the exact opposite. People love to complain about sports science, data analysis and the obsession with athleticism and physical conditioning. In reality, that's the difference between the Rickie Lambert who played for Bristol Rovers and the Lambert who played for England. The best First Division teams of the seventies and eighties would be comfortably beaten by a decent Championship team from 2026.

[Sheaf Saint]

14 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

The game hasn't gone soft, it's quite clearly the exact opposite. People love to complain about sports science, data analysis and the obsession with athleticism and physical conditioning. In reality, that's the difference between the Rickie Lambert who played for Bristol Rovers and the Lambert who played for England. The best First Division teams of the seventies and eighties would be comfortably beaten by a decent Championship team from 2026.

Indeed. It's treated as an elite sport these days, so the fitness levels required to be competitive are way beyond what was needed in days gone by, and the recovery time needed after the extra exertion of a match negates the possibility of playing on consecutive days.

I remember listening to an after dinner speech from Alan Ball about 20 years ago, and he recounted how he and the boys were out on the piss in Camden on the eve of the 1966 WC final. Seems ridiculous in this age, but it was just normal to them in that era.

[sadoldgit]

53 minutes ago, Badger said:

Some fair points SOG raises re level of fitness and player’s roles. Disagree about full backs though, David Peach and Ivan Golac were often playing advanced positions. Wingers, yes,  could be  lazy fuckers.

I know which era was generally more entertaining and exciting to watch though even if it is seen through sepia tinted specs with a dose of nostalgia thrown in. 

True about the full backs. I think Ramsey was one of the first managers to bring in overlapping full backs during the WC in 1966.

[Tamesaint]

54 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

The game hasn't gone soft, it's quite clearly the exact opposite. People love to complain about sports science, data analysis and the obsession with athleticism and physical conditioning. In reality, that's the difference between the Rickie Lambert who played for Bristol Rovers and the Lambert who played for England. The best First Division teams of the seventies and eighties would be comfortably beaten by a decent Championship team from 2026.

Of course they would lose. They would all be in their 70s now. 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

The game hasn't gone soft, it's quite clearly the exact opposite. People love to complain about sports science, data analysis and the obsession with athleticism and physical conditioning. In reality, that's the difference between the Rickie Lambert who played for Bristol Rovers and the Lambert who played for England. The best First Division teams of the seventies and eighties would be comfortably beaten by a decent Championship team from 2026.

Yeah yeah and Anthony Joshua would knock out Ali in first round for sure

[vectraman]

40 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Indeed. It's treated as an elite sport these days, so the fitness levels required to be competitive are way beyond what was needed in days gone by, and the recovery time needed after the extra exertion of a match negates the possibility of playing on consecutive days.

I remember listening to an after dinner speech from Alan Ball about 20 years ago, and he recounted how he and the boys were out on the piss in Camden on the eve of the 1966 WC final. Seems ridiculous in this age, but it was just normal to them in that era.

Fitness maybe.
Skill no way.

Keegan, Le tis, etc would still be elite regardless.
fitness is now a pre-requisite. 
Skill you can’t buy. 
For Joe average players yeah ok. 
Talent?

Skill every day over fitness  

I’m in my 50’s sadly, so can remember quality over wanky old fitness  

If you’re good enough, you’re good enough.

 

[SNSUN]

10 minutes ago, vectraman said:

Fitness maybe.
Skill no way.

Keegan, Le tis, etc would still be elite regardless.
fitness is now a pre-requisite. 
Skill you can’t buy. 
For Joe average players yeah ok. 
Talent?

Skill every day over fitness  

I’m in my 50’s sadly, so can remember quality over wanky old fitness  

If you’re good enough, you’re good enough.

 

I remember us being linked with Lee Trundle in the 00s. Talented as anything but fat so never made it at the top level. I believe he muscled up after retirement and became a boxer.

[Lord Duckhunter]

44 minutes ago, SNSUN said:

I remember us being linked with Lee Trundle in the 00s. Talented as anything but fat so never made it at the top level. I believe he muscled up after retirement and became a boxer.

Took the best ever penalty in a non league game…

 

 

[Whitey Grandad]

8 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

True about the full backs. I think Ramsey was one of the first managers to bring in overlapping full backs during the WC in 1966.

"Wingless Wonders"

[Turkish]

Makes me laugh when people say professional footballers aren't fit. I remember Billy Sharp, the fat lad from Sheffield as he was called, playing a full championship game on the saturday, travelling down, (i think he was on loan at Forest at the time) then running the Great South Run the next day in just over an hour. Whilst that's not elite level it's still a very good time for someone who isnt a runner.

Aside from the fitness point everything these days is about marginal gains. Most players would play 3 days a week if they could, but if a player is even 2-3% off due to fatigue, slight injury or a mild illness then they probably wont play, because at the levels we're talking about it does make a difference.

It's very easy to sit there saying "get them fitter" but it's more complex than that. Fitness in elite sport is a very detailed and interesting topic, i've been looking into a lot of the last few years for a couple of reasons and some of it can even goes as far back as how they trained as a child, it's been proven that a kid as young as 12/13 has a far higher strength and fitness ceiling if they did multi sports and strength and conditioning at that age than one that just played one sport and got into S&C later. 

[West end Saints]

19 hours ago, Badger said:

Wonder how the current generation of players and coaches would have coped in the old days with three games in four days over Easter.

Wenger, Klopp and Pep would shit themselves at that prospect.  

Players today are much much fitter.

And therefore playing against players much fitter and faster.

If opponents have fit, fast players, and also rotate their squad and we don't we will be at a fitness disadvantage.

It's not saying no players can play three games a week, it's is that they won't be performing at their max and more likely to have injuries.

There are loads less injuries than years ago.

 

Edit

1970s average 8km run mostly low intensity

2000s 10km

2020s 13km mainly sprints 

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by West end Saints

[Lighthouse]

14 hours ago, vectraman said:

Fitness maybe.
Skill no way.

Keegan, Le tis, etc would still be elite regardless.
fitness is now a pre-requisite. 
Skill you can’t buy. 
For Joe average players yeah ok. 
Talent?

Skill every day over fitness  

I’m in my 50’s sadly, so can remember quality over wanky old fitness  

If you’re good enough, you’re good enough.

You say that like nobody has talent any more. These days you need both and to be good enough, you have to be fit enough. Tiss and Keegan, as they were in their prime, wouldn't get a sniff in today's game. They'd have to get up to modern fitness standards to stand a chance. 

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You say that like nobody has talent any more. These days you need both and to be good enough, you have to be fit enough. Tiss and Keegan, as they were in their prime, wouldn't get a sniff in today's game. They'd have to get up to modern fitness standards to stand a chance. 

keegan was always fit, work rate was one his main attributes, Le Tiss was fitter when he was younger and fairly quick, it was when he got to his mid late 20s he put on a bit of timber. If Le Tiss would have got a look in in todays data driven, stats based game is another point, because based on that he'd probably look like a national league player, same with a lot of the flair players from the past.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Jumpers for goalposts, players played 6 times a week in my day, then trained on their day off. Just because players can play 3 times a week, doesn’t mean they should. It’s the same attitude as “my granddad smoked 20 a day and lived till he was 87”. Sports science has changed, & supporters mentality should as well. 
 

Elite athletes could play 3 times a week, but it’s been proved they shouldn’t. Whilst you can’t stop midweek games, you can monitor fitness levels and rest players when they’re at risk of injury. All employers owe their employees a duty of care, regardless whether it’s millionaire footballers or Doris the tea lady pushing her trolley round the CPS filing room at coffee break. Any manager who ignored the medical team wouldn’t last very long.  Gone are the days when Shankley and the like  would ignore injured players and gone are the days when players did what they were told even if it meant putting their health at risk. Medical teams can now overrule managers over concussion injuries (no more, tell him he’s Pele moments), they’ve hung up their magic sponges and their influence will grow and grow. When you add in agents needing players to stay fit & the moneyball  model most teams engage in now, we will see more and more of it. The days of clubs flogging players to death, then fucking them off to limp through the rest of their lives are  thankfully over.