dubai_phil Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 OK so big meeting this afternoon. Thought we should keep all the predictions in one thread to avoid a serial outbreak of I told you so's across important attendance argument threads! Me - I'm going for "throw the rule book at us", realise it doesn't work but still slap us with the points deduction for trying to take the p*ss relegation and 10 points next season But they MAY leave a small but unlikely legal loophole for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 -10 after invoking the "exceptional circumstances" rule, announced 4:45. Suspended until the end of the season. Applied if we finish out of the bottom three (which would mean relegation), or if we are relegated anyway to apply from the start of the next season in Div 3. Saints/administrator to suggest we will appeal, but in all intents and purposes it will be game over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorpie the sinner Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 15 points for impudence!!!!!!!!! 5-0 defeat to follow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 15 points for impudence!!!!!!!!! 5-0 defeat to follow! My thoughts too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 -17 points to be carried over to next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintDonkey Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 -10 points this season. -15 points next season. All becomes academic as Saints are wound up. AFC Southampton (ground sharing with Eastleigh) begin life in the Wessex league with a 25 point deduction. Expect the worst and then you'll always be pleasantly surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maltasaints Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I have a feeling nothing will come out today and it will take a few more weeks too find out exactly how screwed we are. In the mean time we'll probably loose 3 of the remaining games so were buggered no matter what. I guess the only thing we can hope is not too be hit with too much of a penalty next season. More than anything i'm pooing myself more about the takeover than any of the above. coyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 No decision today - League will defer as they will wait to see what deal (if any) is made with a buyer and the impact it has on the overall finances. If it results in significant reduction of the debt they will deduct the 10. So the waiting will go on.... Or we lose the ten, lose tonight and on Friday and are relegated by Friday night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I think they will impose a 10 point penalty as stupidly Saints did not appoint a PR to get a load of favourable news stories about our heritage to deflect the issue. That might have worked, but clearly no-one is at all media savvy at the club. Instead, Lowe has won the higher ground on that front and he will definitely not be fighting our cause. Then the Football League, if they are at all just, will sanction Rupert to be put in stocks in Southampton City Centre, where all and sundry can come along and pay 10p to the club for the chance to throw custard pies at his smug little ruddy cheeked face. I'll pay £500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down and Out Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I think you are right as they will take legal advice! Fry has said he will take them to Court if they impose any points deduction, as I think it will be fought on a point of law that the Holding Company has no influence on the Football Club. It could be that the FL have in fact c#cked up on writing the rule book and failed to cover the point on Holding Companies and just refered to Football Clubs going into Administration. This could be the point that Fry has focussed on and is 'keeping his powder dry' for the moment!! Could be tender hooks going into this afternoon!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scummer Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 Can't see them making a decision today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leslie Charteris Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 Technically, SFC is not insolvent - yet! So the FL should not award a points deduction. After all, the league did nothing when Irving Scholar drove a coach and horses through the spirit of the regulations when he took over at Tottenham all those years ago. They did nothing through all the other reverse takeovers and shell company financing so if they take any action today they are being both unfair and hypocritical. It would be a different matter if they could show that there had been some financial impropriety in the affairs of SLH or SFC, but I think we'd know by now if that was the case. If SFC can continue until the end of the season without outside funding or the administrators can find a buyer for SLH then I think there is no reason, legally or morally, for a points deduction. It will be interesting to hear what the league has to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild-saint Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 surely its 10 points or nothing as the current rules state? Why would we get extra points for saying we shouldnt get points because the club is not in administration but the PLC is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_bergerac Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I am the first to have a degree of naivete. Why is there no clarity? Why is there grey areas, loopholes? I appreciate fully the distinction between the Holding Co. and Football Club and can quite understand a need to exploit the system if possible. What I don't understand is why the FL has not got clear, unamibigous rulings. I bet your there will be a decision, which will be deferred, then appealled, upheld etc.... blah blah blah.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 Can't see them making a decision today. +1 Since when has a sporting authority made a clear and decisive decision to nip uncertainty in the bud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Bates Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 No deductions, possible draw tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Mullet Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 We will get away without getting a points deduction and the FL will vow to fill the loophole to stop similar cases happening in the future. Wishful thinking but I would like to think they would not be so arbitrary as to make the rules up after the event. It would go against basic principles of justice. Decision by 3.00pm. Watford 2 - 1 Saints. Flippin Darius Henderson will see to that if he plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Mullet Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 Technically, SFC is not insolvent - yet! So the FL should not award a points deduction. After all, the league did nothing when Irving Scholar drove a coach and horses through the spirit of the regulations when he took over at Tottenham all those years ago. They did nothing through all the other reverse takeovers and shell company financing so if they take any action today they are being both unfair and hypocritical. It would be a different matter if they could show that there had been some financial impropriety in the affairs of SLH or SFC, but I think we'd know by now if that was the case. If SFC can continue until the end of the season without outside funding or the administrators can find a buyer for SLH then I think there is no reason, legally or morally, for a points deduction. It will be interesting to hear what the league has to say. I think the rules are based on going into administration rather than on insolvency. By the way we are insolvent on the basis that as soon as Barclays called time we were no longer able to repay our debts as they fell due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BotleySaint Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 No decision - 2-1 win tonight Miraculously beat Wolves Another 3 pts against Palace Eventually get deducted 10 points and relegated anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leslie Charteris Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I think the rules are based on going into administration rather than on insolvency. By the way we are insolvent on the basis that as soon as Barclays called time we were no longer able to repay our debts as they fell due. It's all so complicated... (sigh). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevvy Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 No decision. 1 nil to Saints Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLove Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 Surley through the Football has already set a presedence by allowing Derby off the hook a few seasons ago who did exactly the same as us. Derby's holding company went into admin and then someone bought them and the football league did not hand out a points deduction to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 7 April, 2009 Author Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I find it unlikely that Sheffield United's Darius Henderson will score against us tonight. RUBBISH This is the SAINTS we are talking about We are BOUND to find some weird way to get screwed even more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyb1 Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I find it unlikely that Sheffield United's Darius Henderson will score against us tonight. If there was a way, saints would accomodate it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint_mears Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 Considering the holding company has been in operation since 1997 i fail to see what all the fuss is about. SFC has hardly recently set up the parent company to 'bend' the rules. In recent years SLH PLC has also been in charge of a radio station and small insurance company. Many Clubs are owned by holding companies and the football league failed to make any changes in 2003 when derby county admin. A disgrace and appeal if deducted points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slickmick Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 Surley through the Football has already set a presedence by allowing Derby off the hook a few seasons ago who did exactly the same as us. Derby's holding company went into admin and then someone bought them and the football league did not hand out a points deduction to them. They should give us an ultimatum, that if by the end of the season we haven't found a buyer that will honour our debts in much the same way as Derby did, then we will be deducted points. Doing it this way would be the fairest for everyone involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 No decision - 2-1 win tonight Miraculously beat Wolves Another 3 pts against Palace Eventually get deducted 10 points and relegated anyway. Still better than losing, getting relegated, and then starting next season on -10. K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topcat Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 (edited) We will get 10 points off this season applied if we stay up, that relegates us so we start in L1 at 0 points. Otherwise deferred to next season so we start at -10 in L1. Rationale = 1. The majority of SLH business was related to the football club. The FL decide they have to hold the principle and avoid legal action from other Clubs. They may defer it IF someone picks up all the SLH debts before the season ends (dream on). 2. We missed the end of March deadline of going into admin and taking the 10 point hit this season. (Fools) Edited 7 April, 2009 by Topcat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stardustonmyfeet Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I think we may get away with no points reductions, but the team will crumble once they learn they still have something to play for and will lose 3-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoneuelllfanclub Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 The reason for docking points is to stop clubs going into administration to gain advantage i.e having debts written off and starting a fresh. However if the "new buyer" takes on the "football club" debt i.e SMS then why should we be docked points? Not all of SLH was the football club albeit the main asset there were other small assets. I think the FL may well use Saints as an example to others to not go down this route therefore dock us some points. A court case will cost Saints thousands of pouinds so the FL may think that Saints wont appeal in any case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbul Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I dont think a decision will be made by the FL today. IF we manage to blag not getting a points deduction the FL will close this loophole and we will get bad mouthed by all the other clubs that have been hit by deductions when they've gone into admin. "It's huge s*** sandwich and we've all got to take a bite." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravesend Saint Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 If a new buyer does take on the whole of the debt then there is rumour that Aviva re willing to take a huge knockdown - that amounts to using admin to significantly reduce the debt and will most likely be frowned upon. Yesm the PLC has been in existence for a long time but the way that it has been sacrificed for the FC is what will irk the league. Also, when you consider that the same directors were on the board of both companies they could well view that the two are essentially the same organisation and all footballing decisions are coming from the PLC. "...they would not be so arbitrary as to make the rules up after the event..." Well, they did after the Leeds thing AND docked them extra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saints67 Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I reckon the FL will state that they are not docking any points at the moment but will monitor the situation daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimbornesaint Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 We will get 10 points off this season applied if we stay up, that relegates us so we start in L1 at 0 points. Otherwise deferred to next season so we start at -10 in L1. Rationale = 1. The majority of SLH business was related to the football club. The FL decide they have to hold the principle and avoid legal action from other Clubs. They may defer it IF someone picks up all the SLH debts before the season ends (dream on). 2. We missed the end of March deadline of going into admin and taking the 10 point hit this season. (Fools) The majority of SLH business until recently was SFC, but they sold off the radio station and the insurance business to cut costs, so it could be argued that SLH was a portfolio of other businesses and not just SFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I reckon we get off and the FL award us an extra 5 points as thanks for pointing out the anbiguities in their rules. :-) We then procedd to get relegated as we earn no points on the field in our last 6 games :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WealdSaint Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 Football League will wait and see. If we get a serious buyer who can afford good lawyers result no points deduction. If we can't afford good lawyers then they will throw the book at us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stirchleysaint Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 Can we be clear about why the rule exists? It exists for when a holding company gets into trouble for non-football reasons (say it owns an Icelandic bank as an example). As long as the football club is being run appropriately then despite the problems caused by non-football businesses, no points deductions will occur. Our problem is that the holding company has failed due to problems of income generation from the football club - FFS Mr Fry stated as much at the recent press conference. For all the handwaving, we are in breach of the rules governing football league clubs. Therefore the sanction will be applied by the Football League and we'll be two defeats from effective relegation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 7 April, 2009 Author Share Posted 7 April, 2009 If a new buyer does take on the whole of the debt then there is rumour that Aviva re willing to take a huge knockdown - that amounts to using admin to significantly reduce the debt and will most likely be frowned upon. Yesm the PLC has been in existence for a long time but the way that it has been sacrificed for the FC is what will irk the league. Also, when you consider that the same directors were on the board of both companies they could well view that the two are essentially the same organisation and all footballing decisions are coming from the PLC. "...they would not be so arbitrary as to make the rules up after the event..." Well, they did after the Leeds thing AND docked them extra. My feelings also, the only way to appeal that decision would be IF Aviva had made any form of offer to settle the debt at a reduced rate BEFORE the admin was announced and that could be proven at the appeal Which means (yawn) months of wrangling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanimal Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 No decision; No points tonight; Still dont know; we will not be let off our collective suffering that quick FFS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintleigh Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 The decision is no decision - a forensic enquiry onto our accounting. In other words they hope we get relegated and then they have a nothing decision to make! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintleigh Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 Sorry - that wasn't my sweepstake entry but breaking news on SSN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintDonkey Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/4273401.Saints_made_to_sweat_by_the_Football_League/ No news is bad news? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbyboy Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 I thought we might get a bonus of ten points. Ah well. 3-0 win tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 7 April, 2009 Author Share Posted 7 April, 2009 Congratulations to our happy band of OFFICIAL ITK'ers Yes, you correctly forecasted a No Decision! They are maltasaint, John D, Scummer, Weald Saint, Botley Saint, Sevvy, Redbul, fanimal and of course those masters of all knowledge - Trousers & Master Bates. Your prize of 10 million pounds in cash with which to purchase the club can be collected by 5pm this afternoon from Mr A. S. E'tripper, care of the airport arrivals hall at Lagos International Airport. Please email him your bank details prior to departure and please note the cash can only be collected in person by showing a valid passport with your user name attached. In the event of non-collection, your names will automatically be entered into a lottery to be added to the Mr B. Riefcase's consortium and you will be asked to sign an NDA immediately Well done we will now stalk you to see what else you know! Oh and a hard luck nearly to down & out who nearly sort of said it as did a couple of others I fell asleep while reading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 7 April, 2009 Share Posted 7 April, 2009 An all too obvious outcome. Still, the winnings will come in handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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