Ten points ???

[SaintRichmond]

Apparently, it was on TV that a lawyer acting for the Administrators said that they did not think that we will be docked 10 points because the League cannot take them from a PLC ???

 

Whether they can or not, IMHO, such a comment should NOT have been made, as it can very soon be rammed back down the throat of who said itt

[Matthew Le God]

They can't change the rules retrospectively so it really doesn't matter if he said it or not.

[SaintRichmond]

They can't change the rules retrospectively so it really doesn't matter if he said it or not.

 

I agree... but that is why I do not understand Wotte when he says that "we learnt that we would not lose ten points" ..... or that lawyer saying what he did

 

The Fact of the matter is, until the League finish their enquiry, they will not know whether we have broken the Rules

 

If we HAVE broken them, then we get docked 10 points THIS season, which effectively means Relegation

 

IMHO, the League are just buying time, until the CCC fixtures are finished, rather than dock us 10 points NOW, thus leaving all concerned with no enthusiasm for the remaining fixtures ....... The League have NEVER said that any such points punishment would only be applied for the start of NEXT season

[derry]

He is sending a message to the league who despite what is being said, having taken legal advice, already know the result.

 

They have convened a legal enquiry to confirm what they already know, but want somebody else to break the news and not have to take the flack from all and sundry if they announce their decision.

 

I fully expect an announcement together with a lot of handwringing and statements along the lines of closing loopholes.

[Red Stripe]

Anyone who thinks we will come out of this with NO points deducted is living in cuckooland - if the FL try to shelve this one, the rest of football will hang us, and unfortunately, they will be right!

[SaintRichmond]

Anyone who thinks we will come out of this with NO points deducted is living in cuckooland - if the FL try to shelve this one, the rest of football will hang us, and unfortunately, they will be right!

 

 

I quite agree ....... Lowe has misread it completely ... what a surprise

[derry]

Anyone who thinks we will come out of this with NO points deducted is living in cuckooland - if the FL try to shelve this one, the rest of football will hang us, and unfortunately, they will be right!

 

Cuckoo, cuckoo:)

 

They are dealing with the administration of a public company and will get the pants sued off them if they get it wrong and they know it.

 

Ever since this kicked off on 1st April, they having taken legal advice and dissected their rules are looking for a way out.

 

Or probably hoping that the relationship between the plc and the club reveals some straw which they can clutch to give them an out.

[the saint in winchester]

Apparently, it was on TV that a lawyer acting for the Administrators said that they did not think that we will be docked 10 points because the League cannot take them from a PLC ???

 

Whether they can or not, IMHO, such a comment should NOT have been made, as it can very soon be rammed back down the throat of who said itt

 

I agree. Can we have the BBC change their headline from "Saints EXPECT not to be docked points" to "Saints HOPE ...."

 

It sounds arrogant and presumptuous the way it is reported.

[um pahars]

They are dealing with the administration of a public company and will get the pants sued off them if they get it wrong and they know it.

 

My only concern Derry is that the PLC that might be ready to sue them and fight them all the way, may not be around for much longer!!!!!!

 

I totally accept and agree that technically we remain within the rules and therefore should not get a points deduction, but having spoken to a few in the game (and sorry I'm not prepared to breach their confidence) they are also of a view that the League is very much like a Gentlemen's Club who can and will do whatever they want, and you will have to agree with it if you want to play in "their" League.

 

They mentioned that the payment of all footballing debts when in administration goes against the grain (which is why HMRC always vote against the latest CVA's), but the League still manage to enforce it if you want to play in "their" League then you have to accept "their" decisions.

 

I just don't see it as an open and shut case.

[NickG]

Anyone who thinks we will come out of this with NO points deducted is living in cuckooland - if the FL try to shelve this one, the rest of football will hang us, and unfortunately, they will be right!

 

I quite agree ....... Lowe has misread it completely ... what a surprise

 

if it was that clear cut it would have been done already.

 

Its not.

 

We clearly escape by the rules and precedent but the league are looking at whether we deliberately set up a scheme to avoid it.

[Pancake]

I think some people need to actually read what is being reported before jumping up and down and having hissy fits.

 

Michael Fiddy told BBC Radio Solent: "The rules are on our side. The PLC cannot have any points deducted."

[Flyer]

They can't change the rules retrospectively so it really doesn't matter if he said it or not.

 

Yes they can, they did it with Leeds as they have a provision to do what they want even if its outside the rules.

[Horley CTFC Saint]

My only concern Derry is that the PLC that might be ready to sue them and fight them all the way, may not be around for much longer!!!!!!

 

I totally accept and agree that technically we remain within the rules and therefore should not get a points deduction, but having spoken to a few in the game (and sorry I'm not prepared to breach their confidence) they are also of a view that the League is very much like a Gentlemen's Club who can and will do whatever they want, and you will have to agree with it if you want to play in "their" League.

 

They mentioned that the payment of all footballing debts when in administration goes against the grain (which is why HMRC always vote against the latest CVA's), but the League still manage to enforce it if you want to play in "their" League then you have to accept "their" decisions.

 

I just don't see it as an open and shut case.

Just to make it clear the HMRC are only interested in ensuring that their own debts are paid in full - they have no interest in what happens with the Football Creditors. The full reimbursement of Football Creditors is a totally separate issue from the HMRC debt and does not have parity with HMRC's claim as a creditor. The full indemnification of the Football Creditors is a rule of the FL

[derry]

My only concern Derry is that the PLC that might be ready to sue them and fight them all the way, may not be around for much longer!!!!!!

 

I totally accept and agree that technically we remain within the rules and therefore should not get a points deduction, but having spoken to a few in the game (and sorry I'm not prepared to breach their confidence) they are also of a view that the League is very much like a Gentlemen's Club who can and will do whatever they want, and you will have to agree with it if you want to play in "their" League.

 

They mentioned that the payment of all footballing debts when in administration goes against the grain (which is why HMRC always vote against the latest CVA's), but the League still manage to enforce it if you want to play in "their" League then you have to accept "their" decisions.

 

I just don't see it as an open and shut case.

 

As long as the club stays out of administration and they are the only body subservient to league rules, the league have a problem.

 

If the league impose a penalty on a club not in administration it will do one of two things, relegation this season or a deficit next season. Either way there would be a financial impact on the plc, the owners.

 

If the league try the interpretation gambit, thats ok, provided only the club is involved and appeals through the league's laid down procedure. In that event the wild card would be the administrator/plc/new owners who provided it was not the club, would be able to sue the league, who wouldn't wear that.

 

This enquiry is a politician, Mawhinny, looking for a way out, from a 'too difficult for me to deal with' problem. There is just no way they don't know whether their rules apply right now.

 

For what it's worth just my view.

[SaintRichmond]

I think some people need to actually read what is being reported before jumping up and down and having hissy fits.

 

OK, but IS Mr Fiddy correct ??? ..... The League WILL deduct 10 points somewhere .......... and it's normally against the Football Team ........

[Victor]

Surely if the holding company can sell the club to pay off the holding company's debts it could be argued that effectively the club IS in administration.

 

I suspect this is the point around which the legal arguement will revolve.

[maltasaints]

If we get away with it i dont give a monkeyS left bollock to what any other club/Fans think, they would'nt flinch if they were in the same situation.

F**K em all it will make beating them if we stay up and get a proper investor in even sweeter.

 

COYR

[Pancake]

OK, but IS Mr Fiddy correct ??? ..... The League WILL deduct 10 points somewhere .......... and it's normally against the Football Team ........

 

Read the quote you fullstop wielding loon. The PLC CANNOT have points deducted. The PLC is Southampton Leisure Holdings, they dont play football; Southampton Football Club do. The only "thing" that can have points deducted from it is teh Football Club. The Mr Fiddy was saying is 100% correct, it is jus the BBC has not conveyed his meaning in the written word.

[Torres]

OK, but IS Mr Fiddy correct ??? ..... The League WILL deduct 10 points somewhere .......... and it's normally against the Football Team ........

 

Michael Fiddy told BBC Radio Solent: "The rules are on our side. The PLC cannot have any points deducted."

 

He's still right and your opening point is still wrong.

[Frank's cousin]

Also, look at teh artiocal by Martin Samual the other day - the most telling is this - from teh Football leagues perspective - they want to deduct us points, and if they understood tehir own rules correctly and they were applicable it would have happened on Tuesady evening - the fact they have this thing going on is a desperate attemopt to try and circumvent their own rules loop hole - they may decide to do it, but watch the club take it to court - which could take some time and thats teh last thing the FL want - these things dragging over from season to season....

[Torres]

they may decide to do it' date=' but watch the club take it to court - which could take some time and thats teh last thing the FL want - these things dragging over from season to season....[/quote']

 

It's also, possibly, the last thing we could afford to do.

[Frank's cousin]

It's also, possibly, the last thing we could afford to do.

 

Nah just get one of thiose no win no fee shysters! ;-)

[CB Fry]

Saint Richmond in utterly clueless post shocker.

[um pahars]

Just to make it clear the HMRC are only interested in ensuring that their own debts are paid in full - they have no interest in what happens with the Football Creditors. The full reimbursement of Football Creditors is a totally separate issue from the HMRC debt and does not have parity with HMRC's claim as a creditor. The full indemnification of the Football Creditors is a rule of the FL

 

But it is my understanding that due to this "League" rule whereby all footballing debts have priority status and have to be settled, it effectively puts these creditors at the head of the queue, which is what HMRC object to (as they recently lost their equivalent priority status) and hence why they always currently vote against CVA's.

 

So my point is that the League can make up their own rules, and enforce what they like, how they want and when they want (within reason of course) and if you want to play ball you have to accept them.

Edited 9 April, 2009 by um pahars

[Torres]

Nah just get one of thiose no win no fee shysters! ;-)

 

Have you had an accident with your parent company entering administration that wasn't your fault?

 

Have your football league docked you points because of it?

 

Did you know that you could be eligible for compensation but didn't think you could afford it?

 

Well, you can! Just call Claims Direct for a no win, no fee quote!

[Window Cleaner]

But it is my understanding that due to this "League" rule whereby all footballing debts have to be settled, it effectively puts these creditors at the head of the queue, which is what HMRC object to and hence why they always currently vote against CVA's

 

But the FC aren't in administration thus don't have to comply with league rules to come out of it cos they aren't in it.

Football league rules have, allegedly, nothing to do with the PLC's administration. The admins will try to sell the club to someone,in theory that should be the end of it. The new owners would then carry on as if nothing had happened. All this is so hypothetical it's untrue.

[um pahars]

But the FC aren't in administration thus don't have to comply with league rules to come out of it cos they aren't in it.

Football league rules have, allegedly, nothing to do with the PLC's administration. The admins will try to sell the club to someone,in theory that should be the end of it. The new owners would then carry on as if nothing had happened. All this is so hypothetical it's untrue.

 

100% agree, but my concern is that the League will see right through this ruse (with the support of the other 71 clubs), and implement some other punitive measure and basically say to the Football Club, this is the deal, if you want to play in our League you have to accept this ruling.

[Window Cleaner]

100% agree, but my concern is that the League will see right through this ruse (with the support of the other 71 clubs), and implement some other punitive measure and basically say to the Football Club, this is the deal, if you want to play in our League you have to accept this ruling.

 

 

 

Well of course, however the stance being taken seems to be that FL rules are in no way applicable, which we know won't be the case.

[aintforever]

I agree... but that is why I do not understand Wotte when he says that "we learnt that we would not lose ten points" ..... or that lawyer saying what he did

 

The Fact of the matter is, until the League finish their enquiry, they will not know whether we have broken the Rules

 

If we HAVE broken them, then we get docked 10 points THIS season, which effectively means Relegation

 

IMHO, the League are just buying time, until the CCC fixtures are finished, rather than dock us 10 points NOW, thus leaving all concerned with no enthusiasm for the remaining fixtures ....... The League have NEVER said that any such points punishment would only be applied for the start of NEXT season

 

If the points are deducted it WILL be next season, if we finish in the bottom 3.

 

Our only way to get a deduction this season is by finishing out of the bottom 3 - then it will be applied on the last day and thus relegate us.

 

This is all Lowe's fault for missing the deadline by 6 days.

[Frank's cousin]

Have you had an accident with your parent company entering administration that wasn't your fault?

 

Have your football league docked you points because of it?

 

Did you know that you could be eligible for compensation but didn't think you could afford it?

 

Well, you can! Just call Claims Direct for a no win, no fee quote!

 

LOL ;-) I sure love the Gallows humour for football fans ...

[Window Cleaner]

 

This is all Lowe's fault for missing the deadline by 6 days.

 

 

Because some legal eagle told him that we could circumnavigate the 10 point deduction anyway.

Why they couldn't just sell the FC to someone for a nominal fee the day before the PLC went into administration beats me.

[SaintRobbie]

Apparently, it was on TV that a lawyer acting for the Administrators said that they did not think that we will be docked 10 points because the League cannot take them from a PLC ???

 

Whether they can or not, IMHO, such a comment should NOT have been made, as it can very soon be rammed back down the throat of who said itt

 

It should be said IMHO. Shows that we are determined to not roll over and accept it. If theres a loophole and we're playing by the rules theres no reason we should be docked points and I hope the administrators threaten legal action against the FA if we are.

 

Could make alot of difference and shows we're determined not to roll over on this. Well done the administrators.

[rallyboy]

if they try and force through a dodgy case they risk serious legal action so the league will have to be 100% confident to proceed.

 

And surely they have no power to do a forensic investigation into the SLH accounts?

(Which as we all know is a completely different company to SFC...)

 

Let's just get a new owner in quick and pretend nothing has happened.

[Guided Missile]

On the point of SLH suing anyone, for anything, I think it may be worth pointing out that this will never, ever happen. There is a very good reason for this. The main one is that the legal body responsible for the actions of the plc is no longer the board, but the Administrator. When I say the Administrator, I mean Mark Fry, personally. Not Begbie Traynor, not a Director of SLH, but him as an individual, qualified administrator. He is not legally allowed to risk any assets of the Company that may not be then available to the creditors. If he fails in that duty, he will be personally liable.

 

I can safely say that Mark Fry will be trawling for all the cash he can raise and will not do ANYTHING that involves any degree of risk. The last thing on earth he will do is sue the Football League, so forget that for a game of soldiers and assume that 10 points will be deducted at some point in the future, particularly if we are out of the bottom three come the end of the season.

 

Now, Delia Smith, she will be in a position to sue the Football League....

[SaintRobbie]

On the point of SLH suing anyone, for anything, I think it may be worth pointing out that this will never, ever happen. There is a very good reason for this. The main one is that the legal body responsible for the actions of the plc is no longer the board, but the Administrator. When I say the Administrator, I mean Mark Fry, personally. Not Begbie Traynor, not a Director of SLH, but him as an individual, qualified administrator. He is not legally allowed to risk any assets of the Company that may not be then available to the creditors. If he fails in that duty, he will be personally liable.

 

I can safely say that Mark Fry will be trawling for all the cash he can raise and will not do ANYTHING that involves any degree of risk. The last thing on earth he will do is sue the Football League, so forget that for a game of soldiers and assume that 10 points will be deducted at some point in the future, particularly if we are out of the bottom three come the end of the season.

 

Now, Delia Smith, she will be in a position to sue the Football League....

 

GM - Fry isnt going to sue the League unless he's on a cert to win. All he has to do is threaten to, if the FA dont have a leg to stand on. If he accepts it and rolls over we lose 10 points. If he is being robust (and it looks like he is) then we stand a chance.

[Guided Missile]

GM - Fry isnt going to sue the League unless he's on a cert to win. All he has to do is threaten to, if the FA dont have a leg to stand on. If he accepts it and rolls over we lose 10 points. If he is being robust (and it looks like he is) then we stand a chance.

Robbie, he won't sue them even if he is on a "cert" to win. He can't use SLH's assets for that. They are for the creditors, end of...

[ludgershallsaint]

What is this forensic investigation going to uncover?

 

We all know that there is no way anybody with a ounce of intelligence is going to accept that SLH is/was a separate company with a raft of diverse interests of which just one is football.

 

The FL have launched this investigation in the hope, more than expectation that they can find something/anything that they can make the 10 point deduction stick on. They're worried, very worried. Recent history shows they are very quick to deduct points and if you spoke to Mr Mawhinney off the record right now he'd tell you that SFC should, morally, be deducted 10 points; I have to admit if it was any other club I'd be inclined to agree with him.

 

It is their **** up, they should have their rules in order.

[Window Cleaner]

Robbie, he won't sue them even if he is on a "cert" to win. He can't use SLH's assets for that. They are for the creditors, end of...

 

Who's paying Michael Fiddy?? (DLA Piper) is it SFC Ltd, the Administrators,

or some other party. Probably doesn't come cheaply either.

[Guided Missile]

Who's paying Michael Fiddy?? (DLA Piper) is it SFC Ltd, the Administrators,

or some other party. Probably doesn't come cheaply either.

There is only one body that is paying the bills and that is the Administrator, signing cheques from the value of assets he is selling or income he is banking. The first to get their money will be his company, Begbie Traynor and any party assisting him in raising cash from these two activities.

Take it from me, he will be sucking the blood out of SLH plc until there is no more and the dead body will be liquidated by, suprise, suprise, a liquidator. That will be fun, as the directors have to attend a meeting of the creditors, after this unhappy event.

 

Of course, selling the business as a going concern would be his first hope, but I think Bob Hope ranks a bit higher as a live option....

[SLATEY]

sorry if i have missed anything in all the admin posts but if the football club is not in administration where are its bills and wages going to be paid from this month if it is proved to be self sufficent for fl rules ?

[Window Cleaner]

There is only one body that is paying the bills and that is the Administrator, signing cheques from the value of assets he is selling or income he is banking. The first to get their money will be his company, Begbie Traynor and any party assisting him in raising cash from these two activities.

Take it from me, he will be sucking the blood out of SLH plc until there is no more and the dead body will be liquidated by, suprise, suprise, a liquidator. That will be fun, as the directors have to attend a meeting of the creditors, after this unhappy event.

 

Of course, selling the business as a going concern would be his first hope, but I think Bob Hope ranks a bit higher as a live option....

 

 

Right, another curved ball that's difficult to understand in the general context of the affair. Are SFC Ltd paying their own bills as you would expect of an independent company not in administration or is the administrator paying them? Surely the whole crux of the "no points deduction" would be defeated if the administrator was acting for SFC Ltd.

[rallyboy]

thanks for that clarification Mr Missile, looks like we are running out of legs to stand on.

My main concern on the ten points was the loosely worded piece from the league threatening penalties to clubs reducing debt through admin.

Any new owners will be telling Norwich Union where to stick their huge expectations and we will walk right into that category.

 

I thought we were going to get dodgy justice from badly written rules but it looks like they may well have us banged to rights.

(which we all knew!)

 

So bearing in mind that we are on the verge of folding and just may be able to resurface in Lg One with minus ten pts in August, is anyone still banging on about whether we are playing 4-4-2 and all the other irrelevant on the field matters?!

 

The team is beyond help, let's save the club.

[sotonist]

Robbie, he won't sue them even if he is on a "cert" to win. He can't use SLH's assets for that. They are for the creditors, end of...

 

surely he doesn't have to. if a buyer can be found for sfc ltd then sfc limited could sue. if all the slh debts can be settled by the administrator then SLH could maybe get in on the action.

 

obviously no action can take place while both companies are still in the hands of the administrator, but it would still be hanging over the football league unless they forced the club out of existence.

[Guided Missile]

Right, another curved ball that's difficult to understand in the general context of the affair. Are SFC Ltd paying their own bills as you would expect of an independent company not in administration or is the administrator paying them? Surely the whole crux of the "no points deduction" would be defeated if the administrator was acting for SFC Ltd.

SFC Limited are in no position to act independently of SLH plc, thus the Administrator, when it comes to paying any bills. The only bills the Administrator will approve payment of are those that are necessary in the generation of income, via existing operations or disposal of assets, that will enable the creditors to be satisfied....

[Frank's cousin]

Surely though GM say SFC is sold lock stock by the administrator to9 individual A. Now as I understand it if SFC Ltd still owes someone aftrer such a deal, but fails to agree CVAs with all its own creditors, the FL can still impoose a points deduction. However if after SFC is old the club is debt free or has agreed CVAs with any remaining SFC creditors (naturally none at the moment ;-)) then if the FL imposed a points reduction we could then sue? not sure, but confused ;-)

[ottery st mary]

I have learnt nil about football on this forum therefore I still know nothing about football.

Thanks to some of my fellow posters, I now know a lot more about finance, Lawyers and accountants and especially administration.

 

I find it totally fascinating and apart from the worry of possible dodgy outcome for Saints I have found it different gravy from the normal silly arguments(i don't think I have been part of any of those before you start)

 

In all seriousness, thank you chaps...keep up the good work......Investment, who needs investment....Let us concentrate on educating ottery.

 

Now if someone could help me with my English/grammar etc I could move up to grade 8 at school.

[saintsdan]

Cuckoo, cuckoo:)

 

They are dealing with the administration of a public company and will get the pants sued off them if they get it wrong and they know it.

 

Ever since this kicked off on 1st April, they having taken legal advice and dissected their rules are looking for a way out.

 

Or probably hoping that the relationship between the plc and the club reveals some straw which they can clutch to give them an out.

 

Hmm, Leeds were a club with a PLC as parent company when they went into admiunistration. Didn't stop the league from deducting them points in addition to the normal penalty. I wouldn't be quite so confident.

[SaintRichmond]

Read the quote you fullstop wielding loon. The PLC CANNOT have points deducted. The PLC is Southampton Leisure Holdings, they dont play football; Southampton Football Club do. The only "thing" that can have points deducted from it is teh Football Club. The Mr Fiddy was saying is 100% correct, it is jus the BBC has not conveyed his meaning in the written word.

 

 

Hello panache ..... loon here ....

 

I am fully aware that the PLC is not the Football Team, and I am also aware that Mr Fiddy was fully aware of that fact too

 

His utterance was, to say the least, flippant

 

Contrary to Mr Fiddy's spiel, IMHO, the Football Team will be deducted 10 points, by the League

 

The League have only delayed the announcement to allow the remaining CCC fixtures to be played out "correctly" .... ie, no real motivation if you know you are already relegated eh ??

[SaintRichmond]

Saint Richmond in utterly clueless post shocker.

 

 

Yup ...... surprised me as well ....... Que Sera Sera ......

[SaintRichmond]

Hmm, Leeds were a club with a PLC as parent company when they went into admiunistration. Didn't stop the league from deducting them points in addition to the normal penalty. I wouldn't be quite so confident.

 

 

 

Careful .... CB Fry and Pancake will ridicule you for such info