Saint Martini Posted 27 April, 2009 Share Posted 27 April, 2009 Norwich went down with us and Charlton followed the season after, our problems are well documented and we can easily find about a million reasons for our demise but I do find it rather striking that two other clubs that were in the PL not too long ago are also going down. Is there a similarity between the clubs that caused this or is it just a coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Majestic Channon Posted 27 April, 2009 Share Posted 27 April, 2009 Norwich went down with us and Charlton followed the season after, our problems are well documented and we can easily find about a million reasons for our demise but I do find it rather striking that two other clubs that were in the PL not too long ago are also going down. Is there a similarity between the clubs that caused this or is it just a coincidence? Yeah, we are all ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFC Forever Posted 27 April, 2009 Share Posted 27 April, 2009 Charlton always have a problem getting fans into the ground. Norwich have a good groundswell of regular support. We have not had as many thru the gates as hoped. I would guess that the main similarity is the need to sell after failing to go straight back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 27 April, 2009 Share Posted 27 April, 2009 Norwich went down with us and Charlton followed the season after, our problems are well documented and we can easily find about a million reasons for our demise but I do find it rather striking that two other clubs that were in the PL not too long ago are also going down. Is there a similarity between the clubs that caused this or is it just a coincidence? I do think there are a number of similarities, with many clubs being neagtively affected by the impact of relegation with regards the morale of the team and the Club itself. Some manage to shake it off and bounce back, whilst for others it lingers around. On top of that there is probably some fall out from having to restructure the finances as the numbers are so different (although Norwich were not an established Premiership side). But I also don't think we should allow the failings of other clubs to paper over the cracks of our own deficiencies and to hide our own poor decisions as "one of those things that could happen to any club"!!! Whilst i agree no one has the divine right not to be relegated, you certainly increase your chances by continually making the poor decisions our "leaders" have made in recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint In Exile Posted 27 April, 2009 Share Posted 27 April, 2009 Norwich aren't actually down yet!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Majestic Channon Posted 27 April, 2009 Share Posted 27 April, 2009 Norwich aren't actually down yet!!! they will be on saturday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Majestic Channon Posted 27 April, 2009 Share Posted 27 April, 2009 they will be on saturday sunday too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint In Exile Posted 27 April, 2009 Share Posted 27 April, 2009 they will be on saturday Here's hoping... Although I think their game against Charlton is slightly easier than Barnsley's against Plymouth!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 27 April, 2009 Share Posted 27 April, 2009 they will be on saturday I doubt it. Nobody in CCC are playing till Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 (edited) Norwich went down with us and Charlton followed the season after, our problems are well documented and we can easily find about a million reasons for our demise but I do find it rather striking that two other clubs that were in the PL not too long ago are also going down. Is there a similarity between the clubs that caused this or is it just a coincidence? all appointed neophyte managers at some time during the season. That is a primordial error. Should have started with Wotte instead of Jan.Has Rupert ever explained that?. As for Gunn and Parkinson (?) well what were they thinking. Everyone knows that it doesn't work so why the f*ck do it.Same as Shearer, Newcastle were awful last night, no cohesion and why he played that lump of wobbling jelly Viduka beats me, the guy looks about 50 and moves as if he's 60. Edited 28 April, 2009 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 (edited) all appointed neophyte managers at some time during the season. That is a primordial error. Should have started with Wotte instead of Jan.Has Rupert ever explained that?. As for Gunn and Parkinson (?) well what were they thinking. Everyone knows that it doesn't work so why the f*ck do it.Same as Shearer, Newcastle were awful last night, no cohesion and why he played that lump of wobbling jelly Viduka beats me, the guy looks about 50 and moves as if he's 60. Phil Parkinson is an interesting choice for a "well what were they thinking" remark. Wasn't so long ago he lead a team to promotion from League One, and a manager that has just done that is currently being touted about on here as the best thing since sliced bread toasted. So Phil Parkinson has achieved just as much as Pearson and I doubt a Pearson appointment anywhere would be seen as a "well what where they thinking" moment. There's very few people on here that think Pearson would be anything other than a success in any club anywhere. Well, that was Phil Parkinson a couple of years ago. As for Bryan Gunn, I agree with you, but you can't move for people on here screaming for the appointment of Chris Marsden or Francis Benali. No-one ever learns. I think all the three of us shows that relegation from the prem is a bugger to get over sometimes, as SWFC, Forest, Leeds and Leicester have also shown. I think we could do with Leeds winning the play offs BTW, get them out of the way for next season. Edited 28 April, 2009 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintjersey Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 League One is going to very hard to get promoted from next season with us, Charlton, Norwich and possibly Leeds all in the same League. So would prefer Norwich to stay up and Leeds to go up this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 Phil Parkinson is an interesting choice for a "well what were they thinking" remark. I believe the Peter Principle applies to football as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
once_bitterne Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 Norwich went down with us and Charlton followed the season after, our problems are well documented and we can easily find about a million reasons for our demise but I do find it rather striking that two other clubs that were in the PL not too long ago are also going down. Is there a similarity between the clubs that caused this or is it just a coincidence? Yes, of course it's all linked. It is an absurd situation where any club that is relegated faces loses the majority of its income in that while the Sky money in the Prem is huge you get but a few hundred grand in the CCC. For an established Prem, non yo-yo, club like Saints or Charlton it is even worse as they have been used to the Sky money for years. We cannot keep having the situation where by a club getting relegated (which happens to three Prem club every year...) means that the club are facing almost certain financial ruin. This is why a Prem 2 needs to be brought in asap for the good of all English football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 I believe the Peter Principle applies to football as well. Indeed, you don't need too tell me. Darren Ferguson and Nigel Pearson have stock going through the roof but it is just as likely that this is the most they ever achieve in their career. Curbishley and Allardyce for England anyone? Keane and Hughes fighting it out for the United job? Paul Ince for every single job going? Not so long ago, in fact most of those were this time last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 Phil Parkinson is an interesting choice for a "well what were they thinking" remark. Wasn't so long ago he lead a team to promotion from League One, and a manager that has just done that is currently being touted about on here as the best thing since sliced bread toasted. So Phil Parkinson has achieved just as much as Pearson and I doubt a Pearson appointment anywhere would be seen as a "well what where they thinking" moment. There's very few people on here that think Pearson would be anything other than a success in any club anywhere. Well, that was Phil Parkinson a couple of years ago. As for Bryan Gunn, I agree with you, but you can't move for people on here screaming for the appointment of Chris Marsden or Francis Benali. No-one ever learns. I think all the three of us shows that relegation from the prem is a bugger to get over sometimes, as SWFC, Forest, Leeds and Leicester have also shown. I think we could do with Leeds winning the play offs BTW, get them out of the way for next season. I'd agree with that, Parkinson built a side at Colchester that not only went up but had a good push for the CCC play offs under Geriant Williams the following season. He had a shocking start at Hull and ironically was sacked after we walloped them at the KC. Charlton's board are more happy to invest to keep them afloat than the idiots we've only just got rid of so if they stay out of administration and use the Shelvey money wisely they should do well next year. Some of my best friends are Norwich fans and a couple of others are West Ham and Roeder is a bad word to say. PR with fans would appear not to be his strong point from the alleged stories I have been told. Sad, as Norwich have a good, loyal fanbase although Delia has retained a lot more credit with Canaries fans as the club would not be afloat without her or other local businesses that have put money in over the years to keep them going. Gunn, nice man but again the number 2/in-culture mistake. Want Leeds to go up as well and would have preferred Blackpool and Barnsley or Plymouth for company going down with us to keep the competition more modest for L1 promotion. However, Home Park is never easy to go to so have told Norwich friends to stay away from razors until Sunday evening at least! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostBoys Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 I suspect that all three are bust or close to it as well. I think that in the Premiership you incur an operating cost level including stadia costs but excluding player costs that is difficult to materially lower. Comsequently you save costs by chopping your best players and damage your playing prospects but you still have unsustainable other costs. This applies even if you have more robust and intelligent management than SFC have demonstrated in the last 5 years and no basis for flaky experiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughieslastminutegoal Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 This is why a Prem 2 needs to be brought in asap for the good of all English football. I can't see how that helps - you are just making 18 teams "officially" the new 2nd tier. Most of the money will still be focussed on tier 1 - and if it isn't then sure as eggs is eggs tier 1 will break away, rename itself the Supa Dupa Prem and negotiate separately with Sky. We are on an inexorable slide to a tiny home top division who's teams have bags of time for more and more euro matches in a euro league, and stuff anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 Indeed, you don't need too tell me. Darren Ferguson and Nigel Pearson have stock going through the roof but it is just as likely that this is the most they ever achieve in their career. Curbishley and Allardyce for England anyone? Keane and Hughes fighting it out for the United job? Paul Ince for every single job going? Not so long ago, in fact most of those were this time last year. To be fair Ferguson has been serving his apprenticeship which many managers fail to do. If Saints were given a choice of two managers next season to get us out and the two candidates were Ferguson or Pearson, my guess is that Pearson will be by far the most popular choice and yet Ferguson's credentials and experience should make him the logical choice. Fan's generally make bad managerial decisions. Curbishly was accused by the Charlton fans of being boring and safe with no ambition! Oakley's comment that Pearson turned the team around is countered by his other comment that Leicester were financially able to keep their team together. Suggests to me Pearson is a Parkinson in waiting and Ferguson like Nigel Clough will in time become great Premiership managers. Football is in danger of imploding and for all the Premiership's dominance it would be less attractive if it widened the gap further between it and the FL and surely that gap is widening all the time. Teams who get promoted have very liitle chance to compete and break into the top 10 and if they don't drop out in their first season will be odds on to do so in their 2nd. I agree with Once Bitterene that the time is right for a Premier League 2nd division. 2 leagues of 20 and 2 Football leagues of 24 clubs and pushing 4 clubs into the conference leagues as some of the clubs in League 2 cannot sustain professional status. The PL and Sky though need to recognise the support role played by the FL and without them trying to feed in new blood and having teams with the money to be able to do that the PL will lose some of its allure. Afterall, who wants to watch an effectively closed shop with little or no element of risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 There are no doubt connections but might be worth highlighting one of the major differences.... Norwich have a higher 'core' fan base than SFC (aka less 'plastic' fans) and yet they're as woeful on the field as we are. Which perhaps brings into question the argument over the season that the dwindling attendance levels have had an effect on team performance. Having a strong 20-25k core fan base didn't do Norwich much good.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 There are no doubt connections but might be worth highlighting one of the major differences.... Norwich have a higher 'core' fan base than SFC (aka less 'plastic' fans) and yet they're as woeful on the field as we are. Which perhaps brings into question the argument over the season that the dwindling attendance levels have had an effect on team performance. Having a strong 20-25k core fan base didn't do Norwich much good.... Probably listened to a fans call to reduce ticket pricing to a tenner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat from Poole Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 Phil Parkinson is an interesting choice for a "well what were they thinking" remark. Wasn't so long ago he lead a team to promotion from League One, and a manager that has just done that is currently being touted about on here as the best thing since sliced bread toasted. So Phil Parkinson has achieved just as much as Pearson and I doubt a Pearson appointment anywhere would be seen as a "well what where they thinking" moment. There's very few people on here that think Pearson would be anything other than a success in any club anywhere. Well, that was Phil Parkinson a couple of years ago. As for Bryan Gunn, I agree with you, but you can't move for people on here screaming for the appointment of Chris Marsden or Francis Benali. No-one ever learns. I think all the three of us shows that relegation from the prem is a bugger to get over sometimes, as SWFC, Forest, Leeds and Leicester have also shown. I think we could do with Leeds winning the play offs BTW, get them out of the way for next season. Chris Marsden? Hadn't thought of him. Sounds a plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgey Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 Players is the answer. When you go down you lose your premiership quality players but retain the players who took you down. They are generally on 2-3 yr contracts and you cannot get rid of them as they are poor players on high money, but you then fall into the trap of buying new (generally average) players due to fans/board demand to get back in the Prem without getting rid of the dead wood. Then you are competing with lean, motivated outfits moving up the leagues and start your perennial slide. Consider this -I'm informed we have 32 players and a wage bill of £180k a week (£9.4m a year). Anyone think we have got value for money there ??? - thats probably double wages of a number of teams finishing above us. Charlton and Norwich are similar (although slightly less wasteful) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 Yes, of course it's all linked. It is an absurd situation where any club that is relegated faces loses the majority of its income in that while the Sky money in the Prem is huge you get but a few hundred grand in the CCC. For an established Prem, non yo-yo, club like Saints or Charlton it is even worse as they have been used to the Sky money for years. We cannot keep having the situation where by a club getting relegated (which happens to three Prem club every year...) means that the club are facing almost certain financial ruin. This is why a Prem 2 needs to be brought in asap for the good of all English football. Wait a minute.... the Premier League was set up as the FA's response to the top teams threatening a European Super League and the FA caved into their unequal monetary demands. This perpetuated a gulf between the haves and have nots, and you're saying the BEST way to deal with this is just to include another group of people so the gap in income is moved down towards teams with even less prospect of improving incomes compared to the "inclusive" clubs, and the main benefit is that more teams are directly affected by the greed rather than just unfortunate victims of it ? I'd say the processional Premier and the crises caused by relegation is all the reason we need to move to a system of club financial equality for the greater good, where all teams share the income evenly - not unlike the Football League used to be when the blazers were still in charge - incompetent but at least attempting to be fair with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 To be fair Ferguson has been serving his apprenticeship which many managers fail to do. If Saints were given a choice of two managers next season to get us out and the two candidates were Ferguson or Pearson, my guess is that Pearson will be by far the most popular choice and yet Ferguson's credentials and experience should make him the logical choice. Fan's generally make bad managerial decisions. Curbishly was accused by the Charlton fans of being boring and safe with no ambition! Not sure what you are getting at here, but I wasn't having a go at Pearson, or Ferguson, just the "Peter Principle" as Window Cleaner nicely put it further up the thread: managers that are successful right now have percieved glittering careers ahead of them, as Phil Parkinson and Alan Curbishley (and Alan Pardew, Iain Dowie etc etc) once had. What we don't (and they don't) know is the level at which they peak. Its not a slight on Pearson or Ferguson to say they might never do any better. It's just what can happen. This time last year Paul Ince was on a one man mission to managerial greatness. Now, he isn't. He might be back or he might never ever beat what he achieved in L2. And anyway Ferguson hasn't "served his apprenticeship" any more than Pearson has, as Ferguson has been a manager for a whole season and a half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidthesquid Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 Yes, of course it's all linked. It is an absurd situation where any club that is relegated faces loses the majority of its income in that while the Sky money in the Prem is huge you get but a few hundred grand in the CCC. For an established Prem, non yo-yo, club like Saints or Charlton it is even worse as they have been used to the Sky money for years. We cannot keep having the situation where by a club getting relegated (which happens to three Prem club every year...) means that the club are facing almost certain financial ruin. This is why a Prem 2 needs to be brought in asap for the good of all English football. Prem 2 is nothing to do with the good of football, everything to do with the historical feud between the FA and the Football League - I mighty bore you with the details, going back over a hundred years sometime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 (edited) Prem 2 is nothing to do with the good of football, everything to do with the historical feud between the FA and the Football League - I mighty bore you with the details, going back over a hundred years sometime Sorry sid, not sure you know the details yourself - the Premier League is nothing to do with the FA and hasn't been since the 90s - the "FA Premier League" fig leaf was ditched long ago too. Whatever the reasoning for PL2 (in a nutshell its the Boltons of this world petrified of relegation and trying to pull the drawbridge up) its nothing to do with a "feud between the FA and the Football League". Mainly because those two parties have nothing to do with PL2. Edited 28 April, 2009 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1ex2001 Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 And anyway Ferguson hasn't "served his apprenticeship" any more than Pearson has, as Ferguson has been a manager for a whole season and a half. and he's had a shed load of cash by that divisions standards but he won't let that get in the way of a good story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW5 SAINT Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 Yes, of course it's all linked. It is an absurd situation where any club that is relegated faces loses the majority of its income in that while the Sky money in the Prem is huge you get but a few hundred grand in the CCC. For an established Prem, non yo-yo, club like Saints or Charlton it is even worse as they have been used to the Sky money for years. We cannot keep having the situation where by a club getting relegated (which happens to three Prem club every year...) means that the club are facing almost certain financial ruin. This is why a Prem 2 needs to be brought in asap for the good of all English football. what!! - the problem will only then surface at one level further down. Prem 2 is the most self centred suggestion to come out of that self centred elite for many years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpofshipperley Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 Phil Parkinson is an interesting choice for a "well what were they thinking" remark. Wasn't so long ago he lead a team to promotion from League One, and a manager that has just done that is currently being touted about on here as the best thing since sliced bread toasted. So Phil Parkinson has achieved just as much as Pearson and I doubt a Pearson appointment anywhere would be seen as a "well what where they thinking" moment. There's very few people on here that think Pearson would be anything other than a success in any club anywhere. Well, that was Phil Parkinson a couple of years ago. As for Bryan Gunn, I agree with you, but you can't move for people on here screaming for the appointment of Chris Marsden or Francis Benali. No-one ever learns. I think all the three of us shows that relegation from the prem is a bugger to get over sometimes, as SWFC, Forest, Leeds and Leicester have also shown. I think we could do with Leeds winning the play offs BTW, get them out of the way for next season. When it comes to managers it's a bit of a lottery really, no matter their history. Redknapp is thought as a genius now, but he relegated us when we had a half decent squad. It didn't help that he said he thought they were all sh** though. Burley was a coup at the time, but scraped us into the playoffs then effed off when we were on the slide. On the flipside, Strachan came from relegated Coventry and did wonders. Only a handful of managers in the land have the midas touch. The others get lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 28 April, 2009 Share Posted 28 April, 2009 not a coincidence but no big money owners either , not like Reading or Brum. not sure how WBA fit in to theory though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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