Pompey Takeover Saga

Joe Nimmo ‏@PN_Joe_Nimmo Tory Cllr Donna Jones says she is a strict custodian of public money, but estimates the economic impact of Pompey is more than £300m. #pst

Cllr Jones says she is glad to hear the trust will be pay the £45-50,000 interest which the loan could cost the council. #pst

She continues that £1.45m is a good price for Fratton Park should the council ever need to repossess it. #pst

Cllr Steve Wemyss says if the council doesn't agree to make the loan it will have effectively killed the club. #pst

Joe Nimmo@PN_Joe_Nimmo Tory Cllr Donna Jones says she is a strict custodian of public money, but estimates the economic impact of Pompey is more than £300m. #pst

Where on earth have they got the £300 million figure from? If split over games for next year (as that is where a lot of the benefit to local economy comes) it works out at £13 million per League One game! How can they possibly think that is true?

Joe Nimmo ‏@PN_Joe_Nimmo He urges members to 'put aside personal feelings and realise the trust's bid is the only way to save the club'. #pst

Cllr Jason Fazackarley has asked what happens to the council's loan if Portpin buys the club. #pst

City solicitor Michael Lawther answers that the loan is meant for this urgent situation and will not just be made regardless. #pst

PCC seem more interested in scoring quick brownie points by propping up the club than safeguarding public money.

Joe Nimmo ‏@PN_Joe_Nimmo He urges members to 'put aside personal feelings and realise the trust's bid is the only way to save the club'. #pst

Cllr Jason Fazackarley has asked what happens to the council's loan if Portpin buys the club. #pst

Jason Fazackerley? That's a name I've not seen in a while. Ex PCS union left wing firebrand from memory.

F.cks sake, it's not hard. Takes all the cash, gives PST the club minus Fratton & then rents it to them at £1m per year on a fixed term contract.

 

 

Even PST are expecting that.

PCC seem more interested in scoring quick brownie points by propping up the club than safeguarding public money.

That's my take on it also. Local politicians are depressingly predictable.

and where is 18m? There is a payment of 5.8m coming in on the PP, the club has to pay its way in the meanwhile £1m per annum would take quite a time to get the rest in. The PL will not pass the money straight to him and so I dont see how your way is so straightforward.

Bless.

PCC are always going to make the loan but it doesn't alter anything. BC will be owner as he won't accept PST offer.

Joe Nimmo ‏@PN_Joe_Nimmo The trust has told councillors the chance of the loan being repaid is 90 per cent. #pst

Joe Nimmo@PN_Joe_NimmoThe trust has told councillors the chance of the loan being repaid is 90 per cent. #pst

I wonder how they worked that out?

Bless.

Joe Nimmo@PN_Joe_NimmoNew councillor Darren Sanders says 'we've felt like lions led by donkeys for the last few years' and urges support for the trust. #pst

:D :D

There isn't enough in the world for that comment, so four will have to do. "Lions" indeed! Shame they don't turn up to games or buy season tickets. They won't get remotely close to Saints averages of circa 21,000 in League One for two seasons even if the trust owned the club and were free of Chainrai.

Can I just say, if Kanu is still claiming his money wont all this be for nothing?

You can bless all you like but you haven't put figures up to back your obvious explanation. When you do then you can patronise as much as you like.

I have, many times & the scenario is that expected by PST.

Stick to fretting & leave the thinking to others.

Can I just say, if Kanu is still claiming his money wont all this be for nothing?

It's all for nothing if BC says no to the PST offer.

Either way, it's win/win for us.

Joe Nimmo@PN_Joe_Nimmo Tory Cllr Donna Jones says she is a strict custodian of public money, but estimates the economic impact of Pompey is more than £300m. #pst

 

Where on earth have they got the £300 million figure from? If split over games for next year (as that is where a lot of the benefit to local economy comes) it works out at £13 million per League One game! How can they possibly think that is true?

wow £13m per L1 home match! Let's say their average crowd next year (being generous) is 13,000. So that's £1000 spent by every spectator every game. Lol is each fan buying themselves 300 odd pints?

Joe Nimmo ‏@PN_Joe_Nimmo The trust has told councillors the chance of the loan being repaid is 90 per cent. #pst

 

I wonder what Experian would say?

I have, many times & the scenario is that expected by PST.

 

Stick to fretting & leave the thinking to others.

Joe Nimmo ‏@PN_Joe_Nimmo Tory Cllr Donna Jones says she is a strict custodian of public money, but estimates the economic impact of Pompey is more than £300m. #pst

I think she overestimated there. The impact of the debt was more like £180m.

Joe Nimmo ‏@PN_Joe_Nimmo

All three parties giving the trust their backing and praising their efforts in putting a bid together. #pst

Tory Ken Ellcome is the last councillor to speak before the leader sums up and a vote is taken. #pst

He doesn't think the risk is as big as many believe it is, he thinks fans will return to Fratton Park. #pst

90% chance of repaying = 10% chance of defaulting. Assuming that's accurate (and we all know it's optimistic at best) then the council should run for the hills! Perhaps the PST don't realise what they're saying but a 4% interest rate for a 10% risk just doesn't add up...

Let's cut to the chase -

so there is NO guarantee that the parachute money will be redirected to the council - half promises or gossip don't pay the bills, they need written assurances.

That £300M figure is completely bonkers - good to see fantasy accounting continues down east.

And any councillor who believes that figure should be immediately sectioned - even presenting that as a fact brings the council into disrepute.

No councillor is brave enough to stand up and point out the folly of becoming involved, perhaps they saw what happened to innocent players when they rocked the boat.

And if the council want street cred as shrewd business people they will say, forget the loan, we'll buy the ground and you can dance when we click our fingers.

Or will they buy ALL the land for £20M and give it to the club, as originally suggested by the Toyman in one of his madder posts?

Are we heading for 'love to help, need more info'...

Or will they just meekly wave goodbye to more taxpayer's money?

And while the councillors admit they are taking a big risk, the Trust just said that there's a 90% chance of repayment - for that amount?

Wrong answer!

Of course, if PCC are convinced to a man that the bid's a non-starter, they can happily vote for it safe in the knowledge that it'll never be needed.

In some ways I'd love to see their bluff called bu Balu.

The council are taking no risk whatsoever. The PST bid is going nowhere anyway, so they can promise to loan them £1.45m on any terms imaginable, the PST are never going to need it.

Edit - Andy

Joe Nimmo ‏@PN_Joe_Nimmo Unanimous vote in favour of providing the loan. No one dissenting. #pst

Cheers and claps from the gallery from Pompey fans. #pst

So, what happens next fellow nutjobbers?

Great PR Stunt from the council.

90% chance of repaying = 10% chance of defaulting. Assuming that's accurate (and we all know it's optimistic at best) then the council should run for the hills! Perhaps the PST don't realise what they're saying but a 4% interest rate for a 10% risk just doesn't add up...

I think you'll find it does. It's a well known fact that 93% of all statistics are simply made up.

Joe Nimmo ‏@PN_Joe_Nimmo Unanimous vote in favour of providing the loan. No one dissenting. #pst

Cheers and claps from the gallery from Pompey fans. #pst

 

So, what happens next fellow nutjobbers?

Chainrai's bid goes through, the council saves face, repeat the administration process when the parachute payments stop.

We're gonna have to ask Steve about dedicated hosting for just this thread...

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/politics/open-letter-from-councillor-backing-pompey-supporters-trust-s-bid-1-4146791

Published on Thursday 9 August 2012 12:30

 

BELOW is an open letter from Cllr Alistair Thompson to members of Portsmouth City Council backing the Pompey Supporters’ Trust loan bid.

 

Dear Lord Mayor,

 

Unfortunately having taken advice from the City Solicitor, due to my work I have a declarable pecuniary interest and am therefore unable to take part in today’s meeting.

I am not permitted to even be in any part of the chamber, unless making a deputation, because of the Council’s rules.

 

As I am however allowed to make a deputation and conscious that there is likely to be a large number I have decided to send to you my views in written form. I hope they will resonate with members.

 

From the outset, I will say that I back the loan. I am a member of PST, a proud PFC fan and someone who is absolutely convinced in the importance of today’s meeting. I am truly sorry that I am prevented from taking a full part.

 

There are many good reasons why I hope members will back the loan request from PST and I could wax lyrical about them all, but I will simply split them into three broad categories: Business, Community and Heart.

 

Business

Firstly, supporting the loan bid is good business. The football club has helped to generate millions of pounds for Portsmouth with visiting fans spending money in hotels, pubs, restaurants and clubs, etc, but more importantly the image of our football club being broadcast around the word was worth its weight in gold. And the City Council and local businesses benefited through the good years, how many times was the term premier attached to whatever business activity or marketing brochure we produced.

 

Then there is the direct economic benefit, the employees of the club. Not huge numbers, I admit, but still men and women employed in the ticket office, hospitality, ground staff, those who do the maintenance, the advertising boards, the printers who produce the match day brochure, etc. I don’t think we should give up on these people and I hope we will not.

 

I am confident that the Trust will strive to increase business opportunities through the involvement of local businessmen and women.

 

Seeing all this continue by providing a short term bridging loan, which is all PST are asking for is a remarkable return on all the benefits as a City we have accrued.

The final point to make in this section is that within the PST bid, I understand that local businesses will receive the monies they are owed, which in these tough times could mean the difference between continuing to trade and not.

 

Community

Now turning to the community benefit. I know that the term big society seems to have fallen from fashion recently, but this is exactly the type of direct action that is supported by the politicians from all the three main parties.

 

The establishment of the Supporter Trust, hopefully that will run the club, is exactly the model held aloft by Phillip Blond, the Red Tory and Maurice Glasman, Mr Blue Labour, and the sort of policy being pushed for at our last Council Meeting by Matthew and Will. A right to buy community assets. If we reject this loan bid I worry that we will set this revolution back in service provision by years, but if we seize this agenda, then Portsmouth could once again set the term of the debate, and empower and inspire ordinary members of our coumminty to take over and run series and assets that they care about and are threatened because if the tough economic client that we live in, but I digress.

 

The benefit to the Community can be measured very simply in lives turned around, or inspired by PFC. I am not just asking about inspiring youngsters to get out into our parks and kick a ball around but to change their lives. To inspire them to behave better or work harder at school. And to highlight this point I will mention two schemes, the Pompey Study Centre and Faith in Football. Both successful because of their contacts with the football club or former players. We cannot put this all at risk by being so penny pinching that we will not extend a bridging loan to the Supporters Trust. The strap line of the London Game has been about inspiring a generation and our football club has done just that. We cannot allow this to end.

 

Heart

This is undoubtedly the easiest of all the reasons to dismiss because it is about emotion and my personal beliefs. There will be people who say, ‘you are only backing the PST, because you are a fan’, and this might well be correct, accept I have already outlined good reasons to support the loan, because of the benefit to the community and the economy. The benefit to the lives of young people by inspiring them to work harder, to behave or simply to dream.

 

To this I would add my belief that the current unsustainable financial system evident by the difficulties of clubs up and down the country who will have to change and indeed the Coalition Government has recognised this fact. Their pledge contained within the Coalition’s Programme for Government says that they will “…encourage the reform of football governance rules to encourage the adoption of cooperative ownership of football clubs by its supporters”. So the Government recognises the need to reform our current system, to move to an older, more traditional, even more small ‘c’ conservative model.

 

The model, the PST model, should not be dismissed either as an experiment, or even a risk as around England there are more than 120 supporters trusts, with a combined membership of more than 300,000 people. In the last decade around £30 million has been invested by these trusts into English Foootball and today 25 Trusts fully own or control their football club. I hope that after today’s meeting it will be 26.

 

The remaining 100 have a shareholding, a direct and vested interest in the running of their club according to Supporters Direct.

 

But it is not just the ownership model that needs to change. There are those both within and outside of Parliament who are arguing that the Localism Act provides the perfect opportunity of protecting stadia by recognising their importance to their local community by designating them (the stadia) as Assets of Community Value. And who would deny the huge community benefit of the PFC on the community in terms of aspiration.

 

Like many of you I was one of the thousands of Portsmouth fans to cheer on our team to victory in the FA cup in 2008 and then join the 200,000 people crammed onto the Common to celebrate this astonishing success. Who could not have been caught up in the excitement of this day? But this feel good factor extended way beyond the fans. The Council itself as I have already said used PFC in marketing, business likewise, school children throughout out City got to see and hold the FA cup. Anyone present who saw this happening would have seen what this meant to those youngsters. It was in short doing what we hope the London Olympics will do, “inspire a generation”, because it was one of those once in a life time experiences that they will always remember and treasure. And this was replicated in our own Council Chamber with members here desperate to be photographed next to the cup, myself included. Seeing all this evidences my point that the club is a vital part of our City community.

 

I also believe that Reuniting Fratton Park and the team under the ownership of PST would be an amazing legacy to the City, allowing ordinary fans, members of PST and even this council to have a greater say in future of our club.

 

And I am confident that if we back the loan in years to come we will look back on today’s meeting and say that the actions of the Council, not only safeguarded the future of our club, but inspired the next generation of Pompey legends.

 

Members, please back this loan request, to defer this request, add in the unachievable criteria contained within the Leaders email of the 6th August, or even to reject it would be to sign the death warrant of our club and league football in the City for at least 12 months and possibly considerably more.

 

Please don’t let our Club die.

 

Please back the loan today and the Supporters Trust.

 

Cllr Alistair Thompson

 

Ok. Playing devils advocate of the counselors letter I do see his points. They are however flawed horribly. It assumes that Portsmouth can operate a self sustaining premier league football club that can deliver success.

Quite simply. It cannot.

The business one made me lol! I wonder if the "economic benefits" of PFC exceeds the 100s of millions they've stolen from the same local businesses/taxpayers/state?

So, given it's Birch's job to choose the 'best' deal for the creditors and we now have two "identical" bids on the table (indentical in terms of what is being offered to the creditors), what does Birch do? Toss a coin? Or go back to the creditors and say: "Ok, you choose who you think will honour the CVA..."?

I liked this bit: "but more importantly the image of our football club being broadcast around the word was worth its weight in gold."

The image of your football club is once again being broadcast around the world. What's its weight worth now?

Bradley Stratton ‏@BradStrat

Football League Agent Fees report '11-12 makes interesting reading. #WHUFC spent £4.3m - more than L1 & L2 combined!

Top 5 clubs in terms of money spent on agents: #WHUFC £4.3m, #LCFC £1.8m, #RFC £1.6m, #CPFC £1.1m, #CCFC £927k

Other clubs of interest to some: #BHAFC £786k, #Saints £833k, #Pompey £748k,

So, given it's Birch's job to choose the 'best' deal for the creditors and we now have two "identical" bids on the table (indentical in terms of what is being offered to the creditors), what does Birch do? Toss a coin? Or go back to the creditors and say: "Ok, you choose who you think will honour the CVA..."?

Chinny still his charge over FP and he can refuse to relinquish that until paid in full. The golden share will also only be granted by the FL is Chinny agrees to reduce the level of his secured debt.

Unless Chinny agrees, this bid goes nowhere and leaves 2 choices for Birch: Portpin or liquidation.

Jason Fazackerley - The skates equivalent of Comrade Chorley.

Seems the Council are happy to throw money at lost causes. Look at the millenium tower. Did they ever fix the lifts.

I hope every saint living in that area are apposing the councils proposals. total waste of public money if they lend the cheating bastards even more money to waste. It would be better spent saving council employees jobs. tjhat way the employees will be able to attend matches.

Pompey girl ‏@Supermum0239PFC PCC loan #Pompey 1.45 mil ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS WASTE OF TAXPAYERS £. PCC CUT VITAL SERVICES FOR MY DISABLED KIDS!

Worth a retweet

Pompey girl ‏@Supermum0239PFC PCC loan #Pompey 1.45 mil ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS WASTE OF TAXPAYERS £. PCC CUT VITAL SERVICES FOR MY DISABLED KIDS!

For those p****y fans who issued dire threats that those councillors who voted in favour of the loan would be remembered at the ballot box at the next local election, can I say I heartily agree.

They will be remembered by the woman above and thousands more like her who outnumber the football fans on the Island of Dr Moreau.

There may have been 200,000 of themon Southsea Common celebrating the Great FA Cup Purchase but that was a day out for most of them.

When old, sick and vulnerable people start dying because of the lack of care provision, when vulnerable people are affected by the lack of social care, when rubbish piles up on the street because there's no money to pay the binmen, that's when they'll fondly remember how glad they were the council loaned the football club the money, all so around 12,000 (probably an overestimate) can indulge their hobby once a fortnight.

http://www.pafc.co.uk/news/article/fans-re-re-united-301720.aspx

• Sue Pollard, who was recognised by the Football League as their Fan of the Year for her sterling fund-raising activities on behalf of the Argyle staff, will again be out with the collection buckets for the Portsmouth trust and Argyle staff;

BBC Solent Sport ‏@solentsport Trevor Birch speaks to @bigadamsport about #pompeytrust loan, Liam Lawrence latest, & Portpin on @audioboo http://boo.fm/b914841

"Any new owner will have to honour deferred player wages"

"The Trust are a fallback position and will only be considered if Portpin drop out"

For those p****y fans who issued dire threats that those councillors who voted in favour of the loan would be remembered at the ballot box at the next local election, can I say I heartily agree.

 

They will be remembered by the woman above and thousands more like her who outnumber the football fans on the Island of Dr Moreau.

 

There may have been 200,000 of themon Southsea Common celebrating the Great FA Cup Purchase but that was a day out for most of them.

 

When old, sick and vulnerable people start dying because of the lack of care provision, when vulnerable people are affected by the lack of social care, when rubbish piles up on the street because there's no money to pay the binmen, that's when they'll fondly remember how glad they were the council loaned the football club the money, all so around 12,000 (probably an overestimate) can indulge their hobby once a fortnight.

Oh come on guys, playing this vague "we care about where council money goes in Portsmouth" card is making all the Saints fans posting on this board look slightly pathetic. Thats not the reason you - or anyone - on this board cares that they're being bailed out. Admit it - it's because they're Portsmouth and they're Southampton's local rivals. There's nothing wrong with that, so why make out like you need reasons like this? Just laugh at their prediciment for what it is, otherwise it really does make us all look a bit pathetic really. Go on Twitter and it's full of Pompey fans saying we're obsessed - and it seems our 7 years of being below them has made us that way. Let's all just move on now. If they die, they die. If they live, they live. Either way, we'll be better off than them in every possible way.

P.s. That isn't a dig at the post I've quoted by the way. Just everyone who posts reguarly on this thread.

P.p.s. And I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss 'The Saga'. Just stop pretending to be morally outraged by it.

BBC Solent Sport ‏@solentsport Trevor Birch speaks to @bigadamsport about #pompeytrust loan, Liam Lawrence latest, & Portpin on @audioboo http://boo.fm/b914841

 

"Any new owner will have to honour deferred player wages"

 

"The Trust are a fallback position and will only be considered if Portpin drop out"

Really just outlines that the Trust have never been in the running; Birch was only ever going to deal with Portpin. You simply have to believe that Portpin and Birch have agreed a sum in terms of player wage deferrals that Chainrai is happy to swallow (it would be utterly ludicrous for Birch to agree sums blind to Portpin). The Trust have seemingly been kept out of the loop on this while they scratch together to find the money they need. The council putting the criteria for "no other commercial bid being on the table" gives Birch the get-out clause he needs to deal direct with Portpin and keep the Trust in the shadows.

This could actually play into Chainrai's hands. He gets the club on the cheap; he gets to pay off the CVA and some of the derferrals without dipping into his own pocket (using parachute payments). And he can play the Trust to his own ends, get them to up their offer to him (they now don't have to fund the CVA so could add that to their offer to him for Fratton Park). So 2 years down the line, with parachte payments gone and Chainrai losing interest with no more funds to channel into his back pocket, he'll sell up to an increased Trust bid.

You have to say hats off to the man, he's played Birch and the Trust absolutely perfectly.

Oh come on guys, playing this vague "we care about where council money goes in Portsmouth" card is making all the Saints fans posting on this board look slightly pathetic. Thats not the reason you - or anyone - on this board cares that they're being bailed out. Admit it - it's because they're Portsmouth and they're Southampton's local rivals. There's nothing wrong with that, so why make out like you need reasons like this? Just laugh at their prediciment for what it is, otherwise it really does make us all look a bit pathetic really. Go on Twitter and it's full of Pompey fans saying we're obsessed - and it seems our 7 years of being below them has made us that way. Let's all just move on now. If they die, they die. If they live, they live. Either way, we'll be better off than them in every possible way.

 

P.s. That isn't a dig at the post I've quoted by the way. Just everyone who posts reguarly on this thread.

 

P.p.s. And I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss 'The Saga'. Just stop pretending to be morally outraged by it.

Accused of being a 'nutjob' or 'obsessed' is a compliment. We know we're pretending to be looking at the bigger picture when in reality this thread is as long as it is BECAUSE it's Pompey. To suggest we don't know how it comes across is missing the point...

(that said, there is a moral side to it all the same, but, yes, that's not the MAIN reason this thread is as long as it is)