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Thread: RH contract thread - why is it 'closed'?

  1. #1

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    Default RH contract thread - why is it 'closed'?

    I wanted to further contribute to that and its closed. Was drifting a bit off topic but come on, did it really need closing?

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    It's just the same Saintsweb culture war on another thread. Don't worry there'll be another thread along in a minute where everyone can pile in again.

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    forum

    /ˈfɔːrəm/

    noun

    • 1.
      a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
      "we hope these pages act as a forum for debate"


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    Looks like this place is regressing back to the days when the only opinion that was allowed was the pro-club, happy clappy one. The only discussion allowed was congratulating each other on how great the previous post was as we all nodded along in agreement with each other.. Anyone who dared to question a post or present a few uncomfortable facts to back a point up was immediately castigated as a bully with an anti club agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    forum

    /ˈfɔːrəm/

    noun

    • 1.
      a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
      "we hope these pages act as a forum for debate"

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    Looks like this place is regressing back to the days when the only opinion that was allowed was the pro-club, happy clappy one. The only discussion allowed was congratulating each other on how great the previous post was as we all nodded along in agreement with each other.. Anyone who dared to question a post or present a few uncomfortable facts to back a point up was immediately castigated as a bully with an anti club agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALWAYS_SFC View Post
    Great post pal. Amazing input as always

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    Looks like this place is regressing back to the days when the only opinion that was allowed was the pro-club, happy clappy one. The only discussion allowed was congratulating each other on how great the previous post was as we all nodded along in agreement with each other.. Anyone who dared to question a post or present a few uncomfortable facts to back a point up was immediately castigated as a bully with an anti club agenda.
    The thing is Del that on that post, and on others, you and those calling for signings would circle when anyone pointed out that the club can't be expected to go out and buy yet more players. I quoted a couple of financial facts and suggested a wee look at the accounts in order to explain the reality of where we are. Conveniently, nobody bothered to address any of the actual facts and instead posted a load of nonsense before someone put the thread out of its miseray.

    If you, Glasgow, Batman etc want a debate, then make the effort to address actual facts and when you're wrong, perhaps have the grace to take the point. Sadly, that doesn't happen, and any contrary view gets shouted down making the threads (and to an extent this forum) a farce.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    The thing is Del that on that post, and on others, you and those calling for signings would circle when anyone pointed out that the club can't be expected to go out and buy yet more players. I quoted a couple of financial facts and suggested a wee look at the accounts in order to explain the reality of where we are. Conveniently, nobody bothered to address any of the actual facts and instead posted a load of nonsense before someone put the thread out of its miseray.

    If you, Glasgow, Batman etc want a debate, then make the effort to address actual facts and when you're wrong, perhaps have the grace to take the point. Sadly, that doesn't happen, and any contrary view gets shouted down making the threads (and to an extent this forum) a farce.
    The last published accounts showed a pre-tax profit of £35.2m

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    I think we all know why it was closed... shame the mods won’t do something more drastic about the culprits tbh. Debate is fine, but it’s all tedious pointscoring and trolling in this place

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    The last published accounts showed a pre-tax profit of £35.2m
    You missed the minus.

    We made a trading loss of £35,228,000

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barsiem View Post
    I think we all know why it was closed... shame the mods won’t do something more drastic about the culprits tbh. Debate is fine, but it’s all tedious pointscoring and trolling in this place
    The point thiu

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    You missed the minus.

    We made a trading loss of £35,228,000
    You'll need to share a link to what you're looking at

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    You'll need to share a link to what you're looking at
    No can do. I use creditsafe via a business login which I can't share. Just Google Southampton Football Club Ltd accounts for y/e 30/6/18. The figures are all there. Pre tax loss, borrowing, big increase in intangible assets (players) etc. It's obvious where our money has been going and why we can't just throw money around. The next accounts are due end of march. Will be interesting.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    No can do. I use creditsafe via a business login which I can't share. Just Google Southampton Football Club Ltd accounts for y/e 30/6/18. The figures are all there. Pre tax loss, borrowing, big increase in intangible assets (players) etc. It's obvious where our money has been going and why we can't just throw money around. The next accounts are due end of march. Will be interesting.

    You'll need to update the Guardian and the Echo too...

    www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/17475320.amp/

    with a pre-tax profit of £35.2m - albeit £8.4m down from the previous year’s £43.7m

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    Nothing to do with me. Just look at the accounts...

    The actual operating profit / loss of southampton football club Ltd over the 5rs (backwards) from 30/6/18 is:

    Operating Profit -£35,228,000 -999.9% £1,756,000 108.4% -£20,984,000 14.6% -£24,580,000 -754.5% -£2,876,567

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    No need to debate - you can download the full accounts from Companies House. They show a profit before interest and tax of £33.65m for the year ending June 2018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by verlaine1979 View Post
    No need to debate - you can download the full accounts from Companies House. They show a profit before interest and tax of £33.65m for the year ending June 2018.
    We can all cherry pick figures. The operating profit is as above. The overall Pre Tax Profit is £33,352,000

    I suspect you're looking at the lander figures, rather than the football club. Not hugely different but poss explains the discrepancy.
    Last edited by egg; 09-02-2020 at 02:17 PM.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    We can all cherry pick figures. The operating profit is as above. The overall Pre Tax Profit is £33,352,000
    In the accounts, operating profit is calculated before profit from disposal of players. Therefore it gives you an inaccurate summary of financial performance in a business where player sales constitute a huge percentage of income.

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    Quote Originally Posted by verlaine1979 View Post
    In the accounts, operating profit is calculated before profit from disposal of players. Therefore it gives you an inaccurate summary of financial performance in a business where player sales constitute a huge percentage of income.
    Quite. Your point highlights my point - we have to sell to buy. The operating loss confirms it.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Quite. Your point highlights my point - we have to sell to buy. The operating loss confirms it.
    So
    PBT in 2017 was > £40m
    PBT in 2018 was > £30m

    When do we need to STOP selling and START buying.

    This is what everyone has been asking.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Quite. Your point highlights my point - we have to sell to buy. The operating loss confirms it.
    Not quite. My point is we HAVE ALREADY SOLD, therefore should ALREADY HAVE MONEY TO BUY - especially as our player trading balance over the past five years shows an almost unheard of profit compared to every other club in the league.

    Your only conceivable argument is that we are uniquely financially constrained compared to all the other clubs in the league who have the same types of operating costs, but who spend more on players than they bring in through player sales.

    If that's the case, just say it. We're a unique case. We have to put up and shut up.

    I won't believe you, but it would be good to just have your position succinctly stated rather than rooting around the club's books looking for something that isn't there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by verlaine1979 View Post
    Not quite. My point is we HAVE ALREADY SOLD, therefore should ALREADY HAVE MONEY TO BUY - especially as our player trading balance over the past five years shows an almost unheard of profit compared to every other club in the league.

    Your only conceivable argument is that we are uniquely financially constrained compared to all the other clubs in the league who have the same types of operating costs, but who spend more on players than they bring in through player sales.

    If that's the case, just say it. We're a unique case. We have to put up and shut up.

    I won't believe you, but it would be good to just have your position succinctly stated rather than rooting around the club's books looking for something that isn't there.
    You've lost me mate. You've made my point - without player sales we lost money so can't keep spending. It's really simple.

    I have no interest in other clubs finances. Just focus on the facts of ours.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    You've lost me mate. You've made my point - without player sales we lost money so can't keep spending. It's really simple.

    I have no interest in other clubs finances. Just focus on the facts of ours.
    Your reading of the accounts is just flawed, that's all. We lost money only because of player purchases, and then one line down in the accounts we made it all back again and more through player sales. It's almost as if this is part of the ordinary income of the club!

    Maybe that's why the club's statement of income from ordinary activities is actually calculated post-player trading.

    But pick whatever accounting standard you like, and year on year, the club has wound up increasing the amount of money it has sitting in the bank. That's money that isn't on the pitch.

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    Simply because it was supposed to be about Mr Hasenhutl's contract situation but descended into a totally unrelated slanging match

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    Unbelievably, there is still no mention of his contract situation on this thread from anybody. I don't blame the mods at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Wayman View Post
    Unbelievably, there is still no mention of his contract situation on this thread from anybody. I don't blame the mods at all.
    With no direct quotes from RH on his contract. We were discussing IF RH would be tempted to stay without the team investment.

    Hence the responsible discussion that has continued on finances.

    Can we spend, should we spend ect.

    All related to RHs contract.

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    Has he signed it yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    The thing is Del that on that post, and on others, you and those calling for signings would circle when anyone pointed out that the club can't be expected to go out and buy yet more players. I quoted a couple of financial facts and suggested a wee look at the accounts in order to explain the reality of where we are. Conveniently, nobody bothered to address any of the actual facts and instead posted a load of nonsense before someone put the thread out of its miseray.

    If you, Glasgow, Batman etc want a debate, then make the effort to address actual facts and when you're wrong, perhaps have the grace to take the point. Sadly, that doesn't happen, and any contrary view gets shouted down making the threads (and to an extent this forum) a farce.
    Thatís not true though is it. My point is why are we the only club that has to fund transfers by sales? Of course Iím not saying we should never sell a player again, but weíre the only club to be in profit from sales, I think the nearest too us has spent £50m more than theyíve earns.

    The defence say weíve made bad signings. Well so has every other club.

    The defence say weíve got players on our books we canít sell. Well so has every other club

    The defence say weíve got to pay agents fees, bonuses and running costs, well so had every other club.

    What other clubs havenít done is make £70n profit the last two years

    Then when all else fails you get told to stop demanding we pay millions for more crap players, stop being spoilt and wanting a new pony because the other kids have one. The only other option is to do a Pompey and be totally unsustainable. Iím amazed even clubs like Watford and burnley appear to Have more financial clout than us, but maybe itís just me wanting a new pony.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    You'll need to update the Guardian and the Echo too...

    www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/17475320.amp/
    Itís like this is club fed propaganda. But.... the club donít post lies to preferred jurnos

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    Perhaps they are giving the impression the club is financially sound and therefore a bargain Prem buy !

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    Its strange how we allways get these so called good new stories appear when the club will soon announce season ticket prices for next season.....

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    Let's surmise then that as RH is alleged to have said that he will discuss the Hoj contract once we have 36 points so it seems logical that the same applies to him. Hence we have heard nothing simply because we do not have 36 points. Maybe on 24th Feb when we have 37 points, talks will begin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IFHP View Post
    Its strange how we allways get these so called good new stories appear when the club will soon announce season ticket prices for next season.....
    The journalists just make them up mate, they donít come from the club. Itís just coincidence that itís the same journalists in the same paper that make they up. Youíd have thought the club might act to put a stop to them spreading such lies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Wayman View Post
    Let's surmise then that as RH is alleged to have said that he will discuss the Hoj contract once we have 36 points so it seems logical that the same applies to him. Hence we have heard nothing simply because we do not have 36 points. Maybe on 24th Feb when we have 37 points, talks will begin?
    36 points seems a bizarre number too. Iíd be surprised if that was enough to keep a team up this season. 40 is understandable as thatís the generally accepted safety figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    The journalists just make them up mate, they donít come from the club. Itís just coincidence that itís the same journalists in the same paper that make they up. Youíd have thought the club might act to put a stop to them spreading such lies.
    Nobody has said that the club don't use the media as part of its pr machine. Explain a) why mid season (after season ticket sales) the club would use the media to peddle rumours about signings that won't happen, and b) why Ralph would join in the game. That kind of nonsense won't get fans on side, or keep the manager happy.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    36 points seems a bizarre number too. I’d be surprised if that was enough to keep a team up this season. 40 is understandable as that’s the generally accepted safety figure.
    The team in 18th place is currently on fewer points than games played. 24 points from 25 games. Over a 38 game season that average points per game would equal 36 points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    The team in 18th place is currently on fewer points than games played. 24 points from 25 games. Over a 38 game season that average points per game would equal 36 points.
    So what? 36 points has only been enough to stay up 3 of the last 10 seasons. Lets hope 36 points isn't the aim this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Nobody has said that the club don't use the media as part of its pr machine. Explain a) why mid season (after season ticket sales) the club would use the media to peddle rumours about signings that won't happen, and b) why Ralph would join in the game. That kind of nonsense won't get fans on side, or keep the manager happy.
    Im confused. When you were defending the clubs lack of activity in January you dismissed the good news story in exactly the same paper about the club backing Ralph and addressing issues at centre back and full back in January as nonsense and not to be taken seriously, the journalists wont know the truth and probably just speculation. Yet it appears this one should be taken seriously. So what, where and when should be believe things?

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    So what? 36 points has only been enough to stay up 3 of the last 10 seasons. Lets hope 36 points isn't the aim this year.
    Wrong!

    1) You could stay up with 36 points in...

    2018/19
    2017/18
    2016/17
    2014/15
    2013/14
    2012/13
    2011/12

    (plus you ignored my point about the average points per game for the current team in 18th place... that is more relevant than previous seasons)
    2) No one has said it is the aim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    Im confused. When you were defending the clubs lack of activity in January you dismissed the good news story in exactly the same paper about the club backing Ralph and addressing issues at centre back and full back in January as nonsense and not to be taken seriously, the journalists wont know the truth and probably just speculation. Yet it appears this one should be taken seriously. So what, where and when should be believe things?
    Again you swerve a point. I repeat my last post:

    "Nobody has said that the club don't use the media as part of its pr machine. Explain a) why mid season (after season ticket sales) the club would use the media to peddle rumours about signings that won't happen, and b) why Ralph would join in the game. That kind of nonsense won't get fans on side, or keep the manager happy".

    It's your point, not mine, that the club use the media (and I think the manager!) to issue false transfer rumours/lies mid season. Please address my point without veering off again.

    As to media articles re our finances, I have no opinion. The facts are in the accounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    Wrong!

    1) You could stay up with 36 points in...

    2018/19
    2017/18
    2016/17
    2014/15
    2013/14
    2012/13
    2011/12

    (plus you ignored my point about the average points per game for the current team in 18th place... that is more relevant than previous seasons)
    2) No one has said it is the aim
    You better check your figures and see how many you got wrong...

    Season 16/17 the 17th place team got 40 points.

    If I overtake second place, am I in first?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    Wrong!

    1) You could stay up with 36 points in...

    2018/19
    2017/18
    2016/17
    2014/15
    2013/14
    2012/13
    2011/12

    (plus you ignored my point about the average points per game for the current team in 18th place... that is more relevant than previous seasons)
    2) No one has said it is the aim
    How is it more relevant? That is how they are performing now but it doesn't mean they'll perform to exactly that way for the rest of the season. It gives an indication granted but you are dealing with humans not computers who have upturns in form, fitness, injuries etc. Bournemouth lost yesterday so their points per game has dropped, if they lose again Saturday it'll drop even further, or if they win it'll go up. So it's only a guide.

    As for your point about staying up with 36 points that's incorrect too, as with 36 points we would have finished below the team that finished 17th that season, meaning that team would potentially have finished 16th but crucially we would have finished with much lower points tally meaning other teams would have more points as they'd have taken them from us. So you need to look at the team that finished 17th not 18th as the safety mark.

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    How is it more relevant? That is how they are performing now but it doesn't mean they'll perform to exactly that way for the rest of the season. It gives an indication granted but you are dealing with humans not computers who have upturns in form, fitness, injuries etc. Bournemouth lost yesterday so their points per game has dropped, if they lose again Saturday it'll drop even further, or if they win it'll go up. So it's only a guide.
    I'm puzzled how anyone could seriously think it is not more relevant to look at the current season to judge how the current season will finish!

    The point of this was the points needed for survival in 2019/20. In 2019/20 the team in the final relegation place has fewer points than games played. There are 38 games in a season... so they are on course for fewer than 38 points. Even if they increase points per game ratio... it would then mean others would also need a big improvement. They can't all improve because they'll be taking points off each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    As for your point about staying up with 36 points that's incorrect too, as with 36 points we would have finished below the team that finished 17th that season, meaning that team would potentially have finished 16th but crucially we would have finished with much lower points tally meaning other teams would have more points as they'd have taken them from us. So you need to look at the team that finished 17th not 18th as the safety mark.


    If you have more points than 17th place... you finish 16th or higher

    If you have more points than 18th place... you finish 17th or higher


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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    I'm puzzled how anyone could seriously think it is not more relevant to look at the current season to judge how the current season will finish!

    The point of this was the points needed for survival in 2019/20. In 2019/20 the team in the final relegation place has fewer points than games played. There are 38 games in a season... so they are on course for fewer than 38 points. Even if they increase points per game ratio... it would then mean others would also need a big improvement. They can't all improve because they'll be taking points off each other.





    If you have more points than 17th place... you finish 16th or higher

    If you have more points than 18th place... you finish 17th or higher

    I said it's an indication as is historical evidence as to how many points it typically takes to stay up.

    And as for the other point it's not hard to work out. IF we finished on 36 points we would have finished 17th based on if every other team had performed exactly the same that season, but they wouldn't have, for example in 2016/17 f we'd have finished on 36 points we would have finished with 10 fewer points meaning other teams would have gained more points so the league table would be different. It's not hard to work out.

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  46. #46

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    So if this thread gets closed will a new one appear called "RH contract thread - why is it 'closed'? thread - why is it closed" ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Again you swerve a point. I repeat my last post:

    "Nobody has said that the club don't use the media as part of its pr machine. Explain a) why mid season (after season ticket sales) the club would use the media to peddle rumours about signings that won't happen, and b) why Ralph would join in the game. That kind of nonsense won't get fans on side, or keep the manager happy".

    It's your point, not mine, that the club use the media (and I think the manager!) to issue false transfer rumours/lies mid season. Please address my point without veering off again.

    As to media articles re our finances, I have no opinion. The facts are in the accounts.
    I think youll find it was you that said the telegraph is not to be trusted and it's inaccurate articles rather than fed from the club. So can you confirm if we are to believe this story or is another inaccurate on?

    "Jeez. For the last time. An article in the telegraph is not a press release. Has it occurred to you that when a telegraph article does not bear fruit it's because it's an inaccurate newspaper article rather than something that's "meant" to be happening? "

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Munster View Post
    So if this thread gets closed will a new one appear called "RH contract thread - why is it 'closed'? thread - why is it closed" ?
    Hope so or something like the scoring points off of other posters thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    I think youll find it was you that said the telegraph is not to be trusted and it's inaccurate articles rather than fed from the club. So can you confirm if we are to believe this story or is another inaccurate on?

    "Jeez. For the last time. An article in the telegraph is not a press release. Has it occurred to you that when a telegraph article does not bear fruit it's because it's an inaccurate newspaper article rather than something that's "meant" to be happening? "
    Any chance of answering my point? It's your argument , not mine, that the club use the media (and I think the manager!) to issue false transfer rumours/lies mid season.

    I said : "Nobody has said that the club don't use the media as part of its pr machine. Explain a) why mid season (after season ticket sales) the club would use the media to peddle rumours about signings that won't happen, and b) why Ralph would join in the game. That kind of nonsense won't get fans on side, or keep the manager happy".

    Go on, give me the answer. Is the club trying to sell season tickets it's already sold? Is Ralph a lying puppet? If it's none of those, what actually is your point? If you haven't got one, say so, and we'll move on and save everyone from this tedium.

    I've answered your question re finances but to clarify I don't have an opinion about what a journalist wrote re the clubs finances. The facts which are contained in the accounts.
    Last edited by egg; 10-02-2020 at 05:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Any chance of answering my point? It's your argument , not mine, that the club use the media (and I think the manager!) to issue false transfer rumours/lies mid season.

    I said : "Nobody has said that the club don't use the media as part of its pr machine. Explain a) why mid season (after season ticket sales) the club would use the media to peddle rumours about signings that won't happen, and b) why Ralph would join in the game. That kind of nonsense won't get fans on side, or keep the manager happy".

    Go on, give me the answer. Is the club trying to sell season tickets it's already sold? Is Ralph a lying puppet? If it's none of those, what actually is your point? If you haven't got one, say so, and we'll move on and save everyone from this tedium.

    I've answered your question re finances but to clarify I don't have an opinion about what a journalist wrote re the clubs finances. The facts which are contained in the accounts.
    They use the telegraph for all sorts of things. As per a previous post I made the telegraph broke the Hassenhuttl news, some signings before any other outlet. They've also done appeasement style good news stories after heavy defeats or key players sold. My point has always been the telegraph is obviously the clubs mouth piece. Whereas you don't seem to agree as per this post

    "Jeez. For the last time. An article in the telegraph is not a press release. Has it occurred to you that when a telegraph article does not bear fruit it's because it's an inaccurate newspaper article rather than something that's "meant" to be happening? "

    Now you answer my point, why are we taking this article as gospel when it could yet another example of an inaccurate newspaper article rather than something that's "meant" to happen?

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