AP's reaction to the ref

[offix]

After the Stockport match AP was "fuming at the referee" according to reports.

 

While the ref's decision to award a penalty kick to Stockport may or may not have been incorrect, I was very disappointed with that reaction from AP.

 

It sounds a bit like he is falling into the same trap that most of our previous managers have; when losing (or "not winning") becomes systemic blame the ref, blame our bad luck.

 

Allan, when you came here you rightly mentioned that you had to get the players back to a winning mentality. Please realize that by entertaining this kind of "blame the ref" attitude you are doing the opposite. You are giving yourself and the team another excuse for not winning.

Please lets get to another attitude: "if we had played well enough, and scored enough, we should be able to overcome the odd mistake by the ref."

[kpturner]

After the Stockport match AP was "fuming at the referee" according to reports.

 

While the ref's decision to award a penalty kick to Stockport may or may not have been incorrect, I was very disappointed with that reaction from AP.

 

It sounds a bit like he is falling into the same trap that most of our previous managers have; when losing (or "not winning") becomes systemic blame the ref, blame our bad luck.

 

Allan, when you came here you rightly mentioned that you had to get the players back to a winning mentality. Please realize that by entertaining this kind of "blame the ref" attitude you are doing the opposite. You are giving yourself and the team another excuse for not winning.

Please lets get to another attitude: "if we had played well enough, and scored enough, we should be able to overcome the odd mistake by the ref."

 

Maybe he was "fuming at the ref" for a whole host of reasons - not just the penalty. When I heard him interviewed he said that the ref was poor for both teams, so the aforementioned "fuming" was probably because the referee was sub-standard throughout. That is a lot different to "blaming the result on the ref" IMHO.

 

As an aside, I though our penalty was just as dubious. It was just the timing of ours that made it seem worse.

Edited 30 August, 2009 by kpturner

[John B]

After the Stockport match AP was "fuming at the referee" according to reports.

 

While the ref's decision to award a penalty kick to Stockport may or may not have been incorrect, I was very disappointed with that reaction from AP.

 

It sounds a bit like he is falling into the same trap that most of our previous managers have; when losing (or "not winning") becomes systemic blame the ref, blame our bad luck.

 

Allan, when you came here you rightly mentioned that you had to get the players back to a winning mentality. Please realize that by entertaining this kind of "blame the ref" attitude you are doing the opposite. You are giving yourself and the team another excuse for not winning.

Please lets get to another attitude: "if we had played well enough, and scored enough, we should be able to overcome the odd mistake by the ref."

 

I totally agree

 

 

He did say No excuses

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/4570909.No_more_excuses_for_Saints/

 

 

That is why my opinion has dipped over the weekend.

 

 

Fergie and Whinger usually complain about refs

[shurlock]

Dont understand the OP. You're damned if you do -criticising the ref- and damned if you don't -remaining quiet and being accused of lacking passion.

 

I would say that there's a big difference between attacking the ref in vague, blanket terms and attacking the ref for a crucial, identifiable decision that singularly changed the outcome as AP did yesterday. And if you want to throw in other key decisions -pulling Saga back from a one-on-one, not giving Mellis a pen, ruling out Saga's goal etc...

Edited 30 August, 2009 by shurlock
spellink

[offix]

Maybe he was "fuming at the ref" for a whole host of reasons - not just the penalty. When I heard him interviewed he said that the ref was poor for both teams, so the aforementioned "fuming" was probably because the referee was sub-standard throughout. That is a lot different to "blaming the result on the ref" IMHO.

 

 

As per the Echo and BBC articles: Pardew said "I thought he robbed us". Definitely blaming the ref for our loss.

[John B]

Dont understand the OP. You're damned if you do -criticising the ref- and damned if you don't -remaining quiet and being accused of lacking passion.

 

I would say that there's a big difference between attacking the ref in vague, blanket terms and attacking the ref for a crucial, identifiable decision that singularly changed the outcome as AP did yesterday.

 

In other sports the referees are respected more and I feel make far less wrong decisions.

 

 

I cannot really understand why anyone would want to be a football ref

[ALWAYS_SFC]

In other sports the referees are respected more and I feel make far less wrong decisions.

 

 

I cannot really understand why anyone would want to be a football ref

 

 

Respect has jack all to do with getting decisions correct,it`s all about ability..

 

The lower down the leagues you go the worse it gets...

[shurlock]

In other sports the referees are respected more and I feel make far less wrong decisions.

 

 

I cannot really understand why anyone would want to be a football ref

 

In cricket, rugby, tennis, refs are helped by technology. When you see the preposterous Howard Webb in action, you realise how much the refs enjoy the attention.

[John B]

Respect has jack all to do with getting decisions correct,it`s all about ability..

 

The lower down the leagues you go the worse it gets...

 

Probably right but some will move up I would have thought

 

Even at League 1 level they have been through numerous courses and refereed hundreds of games and know the rules inside out

[kpturner]

As per the Echo and BBC articles: Pardew said "I thought he robbed us". Definitely blaming the ref for our loss.

Robbed us of the first penalty (foul on Mellis), robbed us of Saga's "goal", robbed us when Saga clean through...blah blah. Normal post match manager rhetoric while emotions are still high IMHO. He is not unique in that. Ferguson and Wenger have made successful careers out of it.

 

"if we had played well enough, and scored enough, we should be able to overcome the odd mistake by the ref." - can't argue with that, but I am not going to find fault in the managers reaction after such a galling end to the match when we are trying to get that first win done and dusted. In other words, I don't think his words are going to adversely impact the mentality of the team. They fought tooth and nail for that win and felt robbed at the end. Who wouldn't (justified of not).

[Saint Charlie]

Don't blame the officials, we should have scored a second goal.

 

Oh wait, we did, and they wrongly cancelled it for offside.

[John B]

In cricket, rugby, tennis, refs are helped by technology. When you see the preposterous Howard Webb in action, you realise how much the refs enjoy the attention.

 

It is only in the top level that technology is used.

 

 

In County Cricket Premiership Rugby it is hardly used .

 

 

 

I thought Ponting was excellent when he must have been gutted after losing the ashes but did not blame the umpires for bad decisions

Edited 30 August, 2009 by John B

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Probably right but some will move up I would have thought

 

Even at League 1 level they have been through numerous courses and refereed hundreds of games and know the rules inside out

 

Precisely,but they are just incapable of making the correct decisions...

 

If they mess up as often as these refs do then they will get some flack...

 

If you mess up in your job as often as these refs do you will get some stick..

 

If you are continually poor at your job you will not keep it in the long term..

 

If refs cannot do their jobs to the required standard then they should not do it.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

It is only in the top level that technology is used.

 

 

In County Cricket Premiership Rugby it is hardly used .

 

 

 

I thought Pontin was excellent when he must have been gutted after losing the ashes but did not blame the umpires for bad decisions

 

Thought it was cricket not a holiday camp;)

Edited 30 August, 2009 by ALWAYS_SFC

[RonManager]

Thought it was cricket not a circus;)

 

Or a holiday camp:)

[Charlie Wayman]

Saints have always been a sporting team which means you accept the ref's decisions whether you like them or not. In any case it always works out 50/50 by the end of the season. It is ridiculous to remonstrate with officials as it only leads to trouble with the FL and never ever results in any change of heart or results. Not only Pardew had a go but that moron bloke who assists him was given it gab and guess what, following the boss's lead, in steps our new thick-as-s*** wally, Hammond.

 

Is this what we are to become?

 

If ever you wanted evidence that things ain't working out the way Pardew expected, this shows it more than anything. Match 5 and he's losing it and blaming others...

 

Oh S***, oh S***, oh S*** we are really in trouble.

 

Mr Cool??? More like Mr Fool!

[John B]

Precisely,but they are just incapable of making the correct decisions...

 

If they mess up as often as these refs do then they will get some flack...

 

If you mess up in your job as often as these refs do you will get some stick..

 

If you are continually poor at your job you will not keep it in the long term..

 

If refs cannot do their jobs to the required standard then they should not do it.

 

With comments like that I am surprised anyone would want to referee.

 

 

I wonder really what percentage of decisions they actually get wrong

[offix]

With comments like that I am surprised anyone would want to referee.

 

 

I wonder really what percentage of decisions they actually get wrong

 

My point is that this is totally irrelevant. People make mistakes. Some more than others. The players and managers have the job to score enough so that it doesn't matter if some of those mistakes go against us. Giving in to the "blame the ref" reaction is just an excuse for not having done the job well enough as players and manager.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Saints have always been a sporting team which means you accept the ref's decisions whether you like them or not. In any case it always works out 50/50 by the end of the season. It is ridiculous to remonstrate with officials as it only leads to trouble with the FL and never ever results in any change of heart or results. Not only Pardew had a go but that moron bloke who assists him was given it gab and guess what, following the boss's lead, in steps our new thick-as-s*** wally, Hammond.

 

Is this what we are to become?

 

If ever you wanted evidence that things ain't working out the way Pardew expected, this shows it more than anything. Match 5 and he's losing it and blaming others...

 

Oh S***, oh S***, oh S*** we are really in trouble.

 

Mr Cool??? More like Mr Fool!

 

Made me lol..this drivel...

 

I`m pleased AP,his assistant and some players are really annoyed by

the apparent dreadfull decision making by the officials as it shows they care..

 

If we all just accept the poor quality of the referee it will never improve..

[John B]

My point is that this is totally irrelevant. People make mistakes. Some more than others. The players and managers have the job to score enough so that it doesn't matter if some of those mistakes go against us. Giving in to the "blame the ref" reaction is just an excuse for not having done the job well enough as players and manager.

 

No I agree with you and Charlie Wayman on repecting Umpires decisions

 

 

I was just wondering whether there are really a large number of errors made as suggested by a poster

[ALWAYS_SFC]

With comments like that I am surprised anyone would want to referee.

 

I wonder really what percentage of decisions they actually get wrong

 

No one is twisting their arm are they?

 

If you are continually poor at something why would you want to continue?...i would`nt

 

Unless of course you are being led to believe you are good at it..

[shurlock]

It is only in the top level that technology is used.

 

 

In County Cricket Premiership Rugby it is hardly used .

 

 

 

I thought Pontin was excellent when he must have been gutted after losing the ashes but did not blame the umpires for bad decisions

 

The lower down you go in most sports, the lower the stakes and the more relaxed players are. Most top flight sports would be envious of the attendances/coverage that even League 1 gets and the financial doors things like promotion open. No wonder that people get more animated by wrong decisions.

 

Cricket hardly covers itself in glory - the aussies are renown for going after the likes of Rudi Koertzen. I would say that a single bad decision will rarely decide a 5 day test because of the time involved and the chances a team has to put things right whereas in football -an disallowed goal, a sending off, a pen- can change everything.

[miserableoldgit]

I totally agree

 

 

He did say No excuses

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/4570909.No_more_excuses_for_Saints/

 

 

That is why my opinion has dipped over the weekend.

 

 

Fergie and Whinger usually complain about refs

There is a world of difference between "excuses" and "reasons".

[ALWAYS_SFC]

My point is that this is totally irrelevant. People make mistakes. Some more than others. The players and managers have the job to score enough so that it doesn't matter if some of those mistakes go against us. Giving in to the "blame the ref" reaction is just an excuse for not having done the job well enough as players and manager.

 

It you score a perfectly good goal and have it ruled out does that mean you have done a good enough job or a not then?

[miserableoldgit]

How many people that went on Tuesday thought that we would have won with a better referee?? Isn`t AP allowed the same opinion??

[benjii]

So, let me get this right....

 

Instead of discussing why things didn't quite go to plan with reference to what actually happened during the match, Pardew should instead have said the mind-spazzingly boring and mundane, "If we'd played better and scored more goals we would have won" ??

 

Mental. Quite mental.

[John B]

There is a world of difference between "excuses" and "reasons".

 

Is that an excuse?

[O_RLY]

I didn't like the ref and I would have slammed him had I been manager.

[John B]

How many people that went on Tuesday thought that we would have won with a better referee?? Isn`t AP allowed the same opinion??

 

Well I went and I did not think the Ref robbed us but I was in the Chapel

[offix]

Made me lol..this drivel...

 

I`m pleased AP,his assistant and some players are really annoyed by

the apparent dreadfull decision making by the officials as it shows they care..

 

If we all just accept the poor quality of the referee it will never improve..

 

Or: if we all just accept that we lost because of the referee we will never improve

[offix]

It you score a perfectly good goal and have it ruled out does that mean you have done a good enough job or a not then?

 

Basically YES, if you play to win by only one goal you leave yourself open to this kind of thing. Score 2 0r 3 more than the opposition. It's called winning.

[spain saint]

As i posted on another thread:

 

 

I watched match of the day and the football league show last night and the amount of poor referees in the game is incredible! I don't believe that we should blame all our troubles on the ref, but where is the comeback for refs? If a player ****s up, (ie the Nottingham forest bloke waving the flag) then the FA come down hard on them, but if a ref ****s up nothing is done to them! The only ref i can remember getting in trouble was, Andy Durso(?) when he booked a player three times against us! IMHO until some technology is brought into the game and their is a punishment for referees for making mistakes, then you will have fans, managers, players, reporters etc up and down the country moaning about dodgy decisions week in week out!

[Rebel]

Saints have always been a sporting team which means you accept the ref's decisions whether you like them or not. In any case it always works out 50/50 by the end of the season. It is ridiculous to remonstrate with officials as it only leads to trouble with the FL and never ever results in any change of heart or results. Not only Pardew had a go but that moron bloke who assists him was given it gab and guess what, following the boss's lead, in steps our new thick-as-s*** wally, Hammond.

 

Is this what we are to become?

 

If ever you wanted evidence that things ain't working out the way Pardew expected, this shows it more than anything. Match 5 and he's losing it and blaming others...

 

Oh S***, oh S***, oh S*** we are really in trouble.

 

Mr Cool??? More like Mr Fool!

 

 

Are you a skate on the wind up?

[ALWAYS_SFC]

As i posted on another thread:

 

 

I watched match of the day and the football league show last night and the amount of poor referees in the game is incredible! I don't believe that we should blame all our troubles on the ref, but where is the comeback for refs? If a player ****s up, (ie the Nottingham forest bloke waving the flag) then the FA come down hard on them, but if a ref ****s up nothing is done to them! The only ref i can remember getting in trouble was, Andy Durso(?) when he booked a player three times against us! IMHO until some technology is brought into the game and their is a punishment for referees for making mistakes, then you will have fans, managers, players, reporters etc up and down the country moaning about dodgy decisions week in week out!

 

But we do have fans,managers and players complaining about ludicrously poor

performances by the officials up and down the country just like we have people complain about poor football performances, are the players exempt?....no! so why should the officials be?

 

The refereeing standards become poorer and poorer the lower you go

but this does not make it acceptable as the rules are the same.

 

Fans,players,managers and the sensationalist media will always look to complain about something in the sport,it`s called an opinion which in turn

sparks a discussion...this is what has happened in football for a very long time

and long may it continue.

[krissyboy31]

The refereeing standards become poorer and poorer the lower you go

but this does not make it acceptable as the rules are the same.

 

Trouble is, apart from one or two, they're pretty damned poor at the top of the football pyramid and they are our so called "best" referees. As you come down division by division they get worse and worse (with the exception of the odd younger up and coming ref).

[offix]

*****ing about the refs just makes no sense and is counter productive. These same refs are at Leeds' games and at Charlton's games too. Yet those teams score enough, play well enough, to overcome the ref's errors.

THAT is what AP should focus on, he should not be complaining that we were robbed. We robbed ourselves by not scoring more.

[benjii]

I'm pretty sure they "focus on" our performance in training. I don't think AP sits the players down and delivers a lecture on referees' shortcomings. I don't think he is "focuss[ed] on" the referee purely by dint of having made a couple of comments. I think you'll find the reporter may have asked him about the ref. Something the reporter is unlikely to have done if we'd just won 3-0.

 

Nothing to see here, move on please.

[Professor]

The referees' job is made harder by the amount of blatant cheating by players, and that is encouraged by managers who blame the ref for decisions against their team and rarely admit to errors that favour them. Pardew has gone public to say, "we were robbed' but according the Kelvin Davis he also told the dressing room that they 'probably let the ball come into the box too much towards the end..". Its a pity he didn't say that to the press as well, because it was poor play by the team, booting the ball out of defence instead of try to hold possession, and they shouldn't be cushioned when they've made a mistake.

[shurlock]

The referees' job is made harder by the amount of blatant cheating by players, and that is encouraged by managers who blame the ref for decisions against their team and rarely admit to errors that favour them. Pardew has gone public to say, "we were robbed' but according the Kelvin Davis he also told the dressing room that they 'probably let the ball come into the box too much towards the end..". Its a pity he didn't say that to the press as well, because it was poor play by the team, booting the ball out of defence instead of try to hold possession, and they shouldn't be cushioned when they've made a mistake.

 

That's some leap of logic:confused: So not keep possession and letting the ball come into the box too much means that we were inviting a harsh penalty? That's like saying better not have too much possession and get into dangerous positions, because we're more likely to have a goal disallowed!

 

For a contrast, think of the Chelsea-Barcelona match last season -there your point might have been slightly more valid i.e. "I know you've got a team of thieving, cheating, diving bast**rds, I'll need to be extra convinced if Drogba goes down in the box". Yes, the ref got the decision wrong, but at least the context leading to his decision was more understandable and closer to the issue.

Edited 30 August, 2009 by shurlock

[Flyer]

Both penalties were penalties, both times players raised their arms and both times the ball hit the arm. He was consistent, he has to give either both or neither.

[Saints foreva]

Both penalties were penalties, both times players raised their arms and both times the ball hit the arm. He was consistent, he has to give either both or neither.

 

Really? By the looks of it Trottman has his arm against his body.

[RedAndWhite91]

Really? By the looks of it Trottman has his arm against his body.

 

There's one picture (It's on this fred actually I think) that shows Trotman with his arm doing what arms do when jumping, a natural reaction, and he is also not even looking at the ball. Certainly not deliberate, it seems there was nothing he could do about it. So unlucky.

[Eastcowzer]

Once upon a time they were dressed in funny outfits and had painted faces to appear in a circus. Now they're in mainly black clothing but they are still CLOWNS.

Sorry to say it, but thre is, without doubt, a few more of the 'wannabe' referees lurking in the lower leagues, and have yet to show their faces.

[sydney_saint]

ok everyone who is criticizing the ref, could you please take a walk down to your local association and ask to take the course and become a ref. With more refs the standard would improve as the pool would be larger. And as a side point I'm guessing that most of these posters give a load of **** to refs down at your local games. This causes most refs to quit, minimising the pool and robbing us of some really talented refs. I as an example needed to take this season off because of the amount of incorrect **** I got.and of the 30 of us that joined our association 4 years ago only 12 remain.

[Give it to Ron]

Saints have always been a sporting team which means you accept the ref's decisions whether you like them or not. In any case it always works out 50/50 by the end of the season. It is ridiculous to remonstrate with officials as it only leads to trouble with the FL and never ever results in any change of heart or results. Not only Pardew had a go but that moron bloke who assists him was given it gab and guess what, following the boss's lead, in steps our new thick-as-s*** wally, Hammond.

 

Is this what we are to become?

 

If ever you wanted evidence that things ain't working out the way Pardew expected, this shows it more than anything. Match 5 and he's losing it and blaming others...

 

Oh S***, oh S***, oh S*** we are really in trouble.

 

Mr Cool??? More like Mr Fool!

 

Of course David Prutton was only trying to shake the hand and apologise to the linesman wasn't he!

Shankly never called us alehouse footballers.

So why didn't you just say YOU want Pardew sacked?

So far you ridiculously think Lambert is lazy, Hammond is thick as ****, Wilkins is a moron and Pardew is a fool.

[david in sweden]

In other sports the referees are respected more and I feel make far less wrong decisions.

I cannot really understand why anyone would want to be a football ref

 

Right or wrong a bad decision is a bad decision ! BUT you've touched on a subject that has often occured to me.

Referees (or in crickets case -umpires) aren't afraid to consult one another in any case of doubt. However, many League referees seem to think they have a divine right to judge all situations and don't need help (of another pair of eyes) in match-changing decisions, like penalty shouts and goal line doubts.

 

Cricket and Rugby have gone over to video replays - and ice hockey has done so for decades past - to decide questionable decisions. Obviously there are not video cameras at every level of the game but now that football has FOUR referees ..can't common sense prevail in such situations and have a little more cooperation between them?

 

It is no wonder that referees are criticised so much. Just spend a few weeks watching TV games and see the result.

Millions can watch a game (and all its incidents) only for referees to come up with " their own Hollywood version " and a different result. Who needs to bribe referees when so many are incompetent -and refuse help of colleagues.

Edited 31 August, 2009 by david in sweden

[northam soul]

The ref may have been poor but the real reason we are still on -7 is that we have played five games and only scored 1 goal in four of them and 0 in the other.

We should be used to getting bad decisions as it happens no matter what league you play in, we were certainly still getting them in the prem.

Goals have always been the answer to winning football matches and we will start scoring ( i hope )

[ooohTerryHurlock]

As per the Echo and BBC articles: Pardew said "I thought he robbed us". Definitely blaming the ref for our loss.

 

This is a one sentanace article??

[teamsaint]

The ref may have been poor but the real reason we are still on -7 is that we have played five games and only scored 1 goal in four of them and 0 in the other.

We should be used to getting bad decisions as it happens no matter what league you play in, we were certainly still getting them in the prem.

Goals have always been the answer to winning football matches and we will start scoring ( i hope )

 

quite so. Added to our failure to keep a clean sheet yet.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

After the Stockport match AP was "fuming at the referee" according to reports.

 

While the ref's decision to award a penalty kick to Stockport may or may not have been incorrect, I was very disappointed with that reaction from AP.

 

It sounds a bit like he is falling into the same trap that most of our previous managers have; when losing (or "not winning") becomes systemic blame the ref, blame our bad luck.

 

Allan, when you came here you rightly mentioned that you had to get the players back to a winning mentality. Please realize that by entertaining this kind of "blame the ref" attitude you are doing the opposite. You are giving yourself and the team another excuse for not winning.

Please lets get to another attitude: "if we had played well enough, and scored enough, we should be able to overcome the odd mistake by the ref."

 

If expressing frustration at (perceived) poor refereeing decisions is a fault in a manager I can only say than Alan Pardew is in pretty good company . From Alex Fergusion and Arsene Wenger right the way on down to pub team level this reaction is almost universal in the game , almost 'Standard Practice' you might say . Hence I can't agree this is a valid criticism of our manager , indeed transferring blame from players onto officials (justified or not) could be seen as performing a useful function in maintaining team moral and building confidence - is this not one of the primary roles of any manager ?

 

It is in the nature of things that referees will make mistakes - and equally that managers will complain when they do . Football always has been like this and always will be .