ONE local derby not enough...

[david in sweden]

the recent thread talking about a Saints v B'mouth "derby game" is just one of a number of potential local duels next season.

 

Of course we also played Brighton, Yeovil ...and Exeter (one of the highest gates of the season)..but after yesterdays win ...Aldershot moved back into the play-off spots in L2 ...and Plymouth are already relegated from CCC.

 

Swindon's future is till undecided till after the play-offs, but we will still have Bris.Rovers next season, too.

If things go that way we could be 9 clubs along the South coast and the West Country next season.

 

More local interest and not so many long trips for the faithful travelling fans.

[Thedelldays]

how are plymouth and exeter considered as "local"

[St.Thomas7]

Poor Carlisle fans....

[Um Bongo]

Bournemouth is NOT a derby FFS.

[krissyboy31]

Bournemouth is NOT a derby FFS.

TBF neither are the Skates. True derbies are teams from the same town/city. We'll have to wait for VT to get into the FL for that.

[Nexstar]

Exeter was only a big gate because it was on Boxing Day.

[VectisSaint]

TBF neither are the Skates. True derbies are teams from the same town/city. We'll have to wait for VT to get into the FL for that.

'Derby' is commonly used to signify matches between teams in the same town or region

In this context "region" would probably be considered as a County, and as Bournemouth and Aldershot are really in the County of Hampshire (or Southampton) these games would be considered local derbies. Bournemouth is only considered to be in Dorset by those with no sense of English history . In fact you could argue that the region here is the New Forest, as Southampton and Bournemouth are on the edges of the Forest.

 

Of course the rivalry is nothing like that with the Skates, thank goodness.

[Huntingdon]

Surely next weeks trip to Gillingham is nearer than Plymouth

 

The London clubs - Millwall, Leyton Orient, Brentford, Charlton, Palace are definitely nearer than Plymouth

[david in sweden]

'Derby' is commonly used to signify matches between teams in the same town or region

In this context "region" would probably be considered as a County, and as Bournemouth and Aldershot are really in the County of Hampshire (or Southampton) these games would be considered local derbies. Bournemouth is only considered to be in Dorset by those with no sense of English history . In fact you could argue that the region here is the New Forest, as Southampton and Bournemouth are on the edges of the Forest.

 

Of course the rivalry is nothing like that with the Skates, thank goodness.

 

 

When I was very young, Bournemouth was in Hampshire, but I believe some Local Govt. boundary changes " moved " it into Dorset in the 1960/70's?

 

As someone else pointed out Plymouth and Exeter are hardly local, but interestingly there were quite a few Exeter fans in the Boxing Day game and when Saints were in the old Div.2 in the 1960's the games between Saints and the Pilgrims often drew the largest gates in the season (both home and away.)...as did the games v. Bristol City some years later before our first promotion to Div.1 in 1966.

 

The games v. pompey were far less frequent than many people imagine in those days.

[david in sweden]

Surely next weeks trip to Gillingham is nearer than Plymouth

 

The London clubs - Millwall, Leyton Orient, Brentford, Charlton, Palace are definitely nearer than Plymouth

 

 

A lot of people look at this on a purely geographical basis (i.e.mileage), but I tend to think of Southampton as a South Coast city rather than a suburb of south London. Portsmiff and Brighton on the other hand, are far closer to those clubs.

[krissyboy31]

A lot of people look at this on a purely geographical basis (i.e.mileage), but I tend to think of Southampton as a South Coast city rather than a suburb of south London. Portsmiff and Brighton on the other hand, are far closer to those clubs.

 

Why the South Coast? You might as well say the East Coast and say Southend and Hartlepool is a derby.

[for_heaven's_Saint]

The real question is will having to travel less far, less often, to get to away games give us an advantage over our possible promotion rivals such as Huddersfield or Sheffield Wednesday?

[trousers]

How long before some bright spark cottons on to the fact that the Exeter game wasn't held on Boxing Day and then bangs on about it for months on end?

[John B]

Bournemouth is NOT a derby FFS.

 

Of course it is

[david in sweden]

Why the South Coast? You might as well say the East Coast and say Southend and Hartlepool is a derby.

 

what a lot of questions about this...

 

I DON'T KNOW, but going back far enough before the days when people had easy access to cars and there were no motorways or buses to travel on them, many people used the railway for travel outside of their own area.

Prior to the massive down-sizing of British rail in the 1960's by Dr. Beeching - almost every village and small town had its own / several stations.

 

Railway buffs will recall railway companies like the Great Western and the Southern Railway which made travel within a geographical area easier than traveling by road. Thus if you look at old records of games played upto and after WW2 you see that matches had much larger gates than average - if they played clubs within the region. Today travelling not so difficult but was a severe handicap for away fans travelling north of London or Birmingham.

Today you can fly to Tyneside in less than 2 hours, but it was half a day on a coach /or train at that time.

 

Though we never played Pompey as often as many people think, my late father always regarded Pompey as a derby game ..but less so B'mouth - especially as we were rarely in the same league as them (except for a shorter period in the 1950's.) At this time Saints were lucky to get 15,000 gates (often only 10K) but home games v. Plymouth, Swindon, Reading even Brighton and Torquay could easily draw 20,000+ especially if it was a Bank Holiday fixture.

 

It's hard to define a derby - unless one expects us to play Eastleigh or Salisbury in the near future, but one definition of " Southern / South Coast Derbies " is anywhere between Brighton and Exeter, and any clubs in the West Country. Although the distance maybe less to the South London clubs, IMHO none of those mentioned would rank as a derby game, but Aldershot (if promoted) might as they are also in Hampshire.

[John B]

what a lot of questions about this...

 

I DON'T KNOW, but going back far enough before the days when people had easy access to cars and there were no motorways or buses to travel on them, many people used the railway for travel outside of their own area.

Prior to the massive down-sizing of British rail in the 1960's by Dr. Beeching - almost every village and small town had its own / several stations.

 

Railway buffs will recall railway companies like the Great Western and the Southern Railway which made travel within a geographical area easier than traveling by road. Thus if you look at old records of games played upto and after WW2 you see that matches had much larger gates than average - if they played clubs within the region. Today travelling not so difficult but was a severe handicap for away fans travelling north of London or Birmingham.

Today you can fly to Tyneside in less than 2 hours, but it was half a day on a coach /or train at that time.

 

Though we never played Pompey as often as many people think, my late father always regarded Pompey as a derby game ..but less so B'mouth - especially as we were rarely in the same league as them (except for a shorter period in the 1950's.) At this time Saints were lucky to get 15,000 gates (often only 10K) but home games v. Plymouth, Swindon, Reading even Brighton and Torquay could easily draw 20,000+ especially if it was a Bank Holiday fixture.

 

It's hard to define a derby - unless one expects us to play Eastleigh or Salisbury in the near future, but one definition of " Southern / South Coast Derbies " is anywhere between Brighton and Exeter, and any clubs in the West Country. Although the distance maybe less to the South London clubs, IMHO none of those mentioned would rank as a derby game, but Aldershot (if promoted) might as they are also in Hampshire.

 

We are seventh in Europe with regard to Local Derbies

 

http://footballderbies.com/

[david in sweden]

Bournemouth is NOT a derby FFS.

 

I'd tend to agree with that, but B'mouth will be the closest geographical opponents next season. :smt028

[david in sweden]

That means nothing. Let them think we are rivals and just laugh at them.

 

:smt038 nice one, mehball !

[krissyboy31]

IMO a it can not be a proper derby if the clubs are more than 30 miles away from each other. Bournemouth is inside that, so it qualifies a derby but that doesn't mean that there is much rivalry between the two clubs, in fact they've always been seen as the little cousin.

 

Alternatively both Norwich, Ipswich and Swansea, Cardiff are not really derbies (under the 30 mile criteria) but they have intense rivalry between the town/cities and football supporters.

[david in sweden]

IMO a it can not be a proper derby if the clubs are more than 30 miles away from each other. Bournemouth is inside that, so it qualifies a derby but that doesn't mean that there is much rivalry between the two clubs, in fact they've always been seen as the little cousin.

 

Alternatively both Norwich, Ipswich and Swansea, Cardiff are not really derbies (under the 30 mile criteria) but they have intense rivalry between the town/cities and football supporters.

 

why ..30 miles.?

Aldershot must be further away than that and they are in the county.

B'mouth might qualify for yr. 30 mile limit...but not Yeovil...!

[krissyboy31]

why ..30 miles.?

Aldershot must be further away than that and they are in the county.

B'mouth might qualify for yr. 30 mile limit...but not Yeovil...!

 

No Aldershot's not a derby, nor is Yeovil and never ever thought of them as being one (nor Reading, nor Brighton, nor Swindon).

[Thedelldays]

I do get amazed when people mention plymouth as some sort of derby..

why on earth do they do that..?

[Saint_clark]

I do get amazed when people mention plymouth as some sort of derby..

why on earth do they do that..?

 

No idea why but there is a bit of animosity from their side (they call us scummers as well) and i've always wanted us to beat them more than most.

It's more of a derby than Bournemouth, put it that way.

[david in sweden]

No Aldershot's not a derby, nor is Yeovil and never ever thought of them as being one (nor Reading, nor Brighton, nor Swindon).

 

I find it difficult to think that too, but WHY 30 MILES..why not 40 ..or 50 miles ?

[Thedelldays]

No idea why but there is a bit of animosity from their side (they call us scummers as well) and i've always wanted us to beat them more than most.

It's more of a derby than Bournemouth, put it that way.

erm..not really, they dont..

 

there was a little bit of needle with the whole luggy afair..but that has long since gone and we (rightly so) dont even appear on their radar...apart from the time of luggy, I have never had a bad word spoken to me wearing my saints top down here.

 

and NO, it is not more of a derby than the cherries..not in any way

[krissyboy31]

I find it difficult to think that too, but WHY 30 MILES..why not 40 ..or 50 miles ?

 

Because anything over 30 miles I do not consider to be 'local'.

[JustinR]

I don't think having to play numerous league derbies in a season is a good thing... at all. Opponents who might not normally be on your level, raise their game significantly.

 

I remember Arsene Wenger once remark that it was harder for Arsenal to win the league than Man Utd because Arsenal had to face many more local derbies than they did.

[Huntingdon]

erm..not really, they dont..

 

there was a little bit of needle with the whole luggy afair..but that has long since gone and we (rightly so) dont even appear on their radar...apart from the time of luggy, I have never had a bad word spoken to me wearing my saints top down here.

 

and NO, it is not more of a derby than the cherries..not in any way

 

I know you have connections with Plymouth, so you are obviously well informed on Plymouth's apparant derision for us.

 

I always got the impression that with Plymouth being a naval town, they have an affection for their fellow naval town Pompey.

As a result of this they also refer to Saints as scummers

[Thedelldays]

I know you have connections with Plymouth, so you are obviously well informed on Plymouth's apparant derision for us.

 

I always got the impression that with Plymouth being a naval town, they have an affection for their fellow naval town Pompey.

As a result of this they also refer to Saints as scummers

 

pompey are more of a rival than plymouth...alot of it goes back to trouble "back in the day"..

 

we are known as scummers by pompey and it gets air time when we play each other. so it catches on now and then

 

but rivalry with plymouth...no

[Fan The Flames]

Southampton and Plymouth have spent a lot of seasons in the same divisions over the years and there was definitely a south coast rivalry according to my old man, a Plymouth fan. It might have died with the years apart when we were top flight. I remember watching Plymouth v Portsmouth in the late seventies, it was a real big deal and I've never seen worse fighting since, all round town before the game and the game had to be stopped to quell the voilence.

[chrisobee]

Surely next weeks trip to Gillingham is nearer than Plymouth

 

The London clubs - Millwall, Leyton Orient, Brentford, Charlton, Palace are definitely nearer than Plymouth

 

Very close, just a shame Watford aren't coming down !!

[chrisobee]

I remember Arsene Wenger once remark that it was harder for Arsenal to win the league than Man Utd because Arsenal had to face many more local derbies than they did.

 

Which considering Arsenal had not lost to Spurs in the League for about 10 years ( and beat them in 1971 to clinch the double) before their recent defeat is pretty silly really.

[Turkish]

Plymouth is 200 od miles away! If that is a local derby then so are all the London and mdlands clubs!

[Saint_clark]

Plymouth is 200 od miles away! If that is a local derby then so are all the London and mdlands clubs!

 

No-ones saying it's local, just that there is more of a rivalry between us and them than us and Bournemouth.

[The9]

Because anything over 30 miles I do not consider to be 'local'.

 

I think you have to accept that your definition is somewhat limited.

 

Apart from it being an entirely arbitrary distance, it doesn't take into consideration existing local rivalries, the inconsistent geographical spread of clubs (for instance there is no league club nearer to Swansea than Cardiff, but there are at probably 15 clubs within the same distance of QPR's ground, and not all of them are going to be derbies in anything but name), broader patterns of regional identity or football history.

 

The strict definition of a "derby" is within the same city/town, but there are numerous derbys which don't fulfil that criteria, and similarly there are some matches between two local sides which have no additional weight on them at all - usually because both teams see their "local rivals" as someone else (e.g. Forest and Notts Co couldn't be much nearer, but Forest's local rivals are Derby, and the rare matches between the two Nottingham-based clubs are relatively tame in comparison).

 

Basically, you are claiming that something like Barnet v Crystal Palace is a derby (they are within 30 miles, but have never played a League match, are opposite ends of London, there's no rivalry, history or conflicting sense of identity at all), but Swansea v Cardiff (nearly 100 years of South Walian animosity over city status, local funding, identity, trade, a history of rivalry in other sports, noted hooliganism and urban legends on both sides, often in the same division and currently competing for promotion against each other), isn't.

Edited 27 April, 2010 by The9

[The9]

No-ones saying it's local, just that there is more of a rivalry between us and them than us and Bournemouth.

 

I don't think there is, just by virtue of this discussion happening.

 

To claim Plymouth have a big rivalry with Saints which fundamentally is based on being in the same division for 4 seasons in the last 60, and sharing a south coast location hundreds of miles apart, and having nicked their manager (or not) just doesn't wash. Like Spurs were our rivals for about as long as it took Hoddle to get the sack - from our perspective, and barely anyone cares about that now... Dalek.

 

Even if the AFCB thing is one-sided, there's still more rivalry on that one side coming from them than there is in both sides of Plymouth-Saints.

 

I've never been verbally accosted by a Plymouth fan in Southampton on a non-match day for a start...

[scott_saints]

I've never been verbally accosted by a Plymouth fan in Southampton on a non-match day for a start...

I have, but then again it was shortly after we "knicked their manager". I don't think they care about this now.

[Sour Mash]

No-ones saying it's local, just that there is more of a rivalry between us and them than us and Bournemouth.

 

What the f**k are you on about? We have more rivalry with Plymouth than Bournemouth?

[Saint_clark]

What the f**k are you on about? We have more rivalry with Plymouth than Bournemouth?

 

You disagree I take it? I want Bournemouth to do well. I can't say the same for Plymouth.

[The9]

You disagree I take it? I want Bournemouth to do well. I can't say the same for Plymouth.

 

Ok, so YOU have more dislike for Plymouth.

 

I couldn't really care less about either of them and have a significant dislike for Cardiff City, but I'm not on here claiming Saints hate Cardiff more than Pompey/AFCB/Spurs, am I ?

 

There is quite some split in the Saints fanbase regarding Bournemouth - a lot of people seem to like them as plucky local underdogs, a lot seem to dislike them due to (some of) their fans noticably not liking us. Sometimes the dislike is due to this following the efforts Saints made to help keep them in business in the 90s being met with "scummer"-type abuse.

 

I will be happy to adopt "Hampshire rejects" as an amusing chant next season though.