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Goolie / Papa Parallel ?


alpine_saint

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On another Saints site, the editorial is suggesting that AP might not have been behind the loan of Goolie. I assume the inference is that this is an NC-inspired signing, what with the Italian connection...

 

The same piece reminds of a similar loan last season, Papa, who although he definitely brought something to the team, enhanced our options and scored goals, was not permanently signed despite an option to do so; the word being AP didnt take to him and he didnt take to AP. When you consider how sparsely he was used, his goal return wasnt that bad.

 

The AP-Papa situation may have been driven mainly by a personality clash; however, it is equally possible that the personality clash was caused by a reluctance to play him from AP.

 

The question bodes, therefore : Are we sure we are going to see a lot of Goolie, or are circumstances different this time and we will see him out of sheer desperation ?

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Apparently the Papa signing was APs.

 

He was on his radar when he was manager of West Ham.

 

I know at one point, West Ham had an Italian as DoF. This may have been in Pardew's time. It may explain how he came to be on West Ham's radar.

 

This would may not make as interesting reading as the jucier conspiracy theories, granted.

 

HTH

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Apparently the Papa signing was APs.

 

He was on his radar when he was manager of West Ham.

 

I know at one point, West Ham had an Italian as DoF. This may have been in Pardew's time. It may explain how he came to be on West Ham's radar.

 

This would may not make as interesting reading as the jucier conspiracy theories, granted.

 

HTH

 

Can you explain why AP was so reluctant to use him then, if he knew all about him ?

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Can you explain why AP was so reluctant to use him then, if he knew all about him ?

 

He made 35 appearances in a team that also included two of the most prolific strikers in League One plus an ex-Premiership striker, one of the "best" attacking midfielders in League One and another pacey winger also on loan. That not reluctant, its playing the squad to suit the opposition best.

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I think there are a lot of assumptions in the OP, there are plenty of reasons not to have played Waigo in the team other than "personality clash".

 

I couldn't tell you how integral Guly's going to be until I actually see him kick a ball and how he reacts to League One and the other 10 blokes on his own team, but based on the YouTube video he likes to drive forward with the ball, seems comfortable out side, has a decent shot and... um... let's hope we're playing Lecce a lot.

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Depends on how good he is. Don't think it will be out of sheer desperation though. More down to whether he's good enough to play or not. If he proves he's good enough, he'll play. If he doesn't, he won't. He's a different player to Papa so to compare there abilities is a bit harsh, but the similarities of the deal are obvious. This is a good thing, using contacts you have to make deals. It happens at every club.

 

What also happens at every club is the Manager is not the only one who makes the decision on player signings. It is no secret that Pardew/Cortese/Reed/and the Chief Scout are all communicating regarding deals, and thats the way it should be too. It's always good to have opinions from others, including scouts, Reed, and Cortese (who I have no doubt, only offers the financial side of the deal, arguably the most important though).

 

Pardew would have seen and known enough about this player, who may have had come to Cortese's or a scout we may have working for us out in Italy attention through his contacts and the likes of Reed/Scouts offer their expertise and get info regarding the player too.

 

As I said, this happens at almost every club. Most notably Man United, where Fergie himself has openly admitted he has spent £7m on a player he's never seen before, on the word of a scout who he trusts and has working for him over in Portugal.

 

I'd hate to see your reaction to that deal if you were a Man United fan. Fergie himself has said that's a risk, just like you keep banging on about Gully being a risk (Pardew's words) for us. That happens. Welcome to the world of modern football. It's moved on hugely from the days of Clough and anyone else. It's become about scouting networks, contacts, taking gambles, receiving info from people all round the world, and we are lucky to have a probably much bigger network of contacts than any other team in this division because our funds and ambition allow it. As Pardew also has said a lot, and in one of his recent interviews, we have become a lot more professional in this sense.

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He made 35 appearances in a team that also included two of the most prolific strikers in League One plus an ex-Premiership striker, one of the "best" attacking midfielders in League One and another pacey winger also on loan. That not reluctant, its playing the squad to suit the opposition best.

 

How many of the 35 appearances were over 10minutes ?

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Could be that AP signed him on loan as he rated him. Then they didn't hit it off (that could be for many many reasons) and we didn't sign him?

 

As for goolie, who knows if we'll see loads of him or not? If he plays well and deserves a starting place then I'm sure he'll get it - just hope he doesn't think he'll get loads of time on the ball in this (or any English) league.

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I think there are a lot of assumptions in the OP, there are plenty of reasons not to have played Waigo in the team other than "personality clash".

 

Yes, there are quite a lot of assumptions there, thought the only assertion of mine is the sense that he was under-utilised.

 

There seems to be quite a body of opinion that AP and Papa didnt get on though - didnt Papa say this to the press at some point or another ?

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On another Saints site, the editorial is suggesting that AP might not have been behind the loan of Goolie. I assume the inference is that this is an NC-inspired signing, what with the Italian connection...

 

The same piece reminds of a similar loan last season, Papa, who although he definitely brought something to the team, enhanced our options and scored goals, was not permanently signed despite an option to do so; the word being AP didnt take to him and he didnt take to AP. When you consider how sparsely he was used, his goal return wasnt that bad.

 

The AP-Papa situation may have been driven mainly by a personality clash; however, it is equally possible that the personality clash was caused by a reluctance to play him from AP.

 

The question bodes, therefore : Are we sure we are going to see a lot of Goolie, or are circumstances different this time and we will see him out of sheer desperation ?

You will stop at nothing to turn a good situation into a shyte one wont you.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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You're clearly stirring the AP/Waigo situation. We just had better players to play ahead of him that worked better with the team. He was a great impact sub, when he started in the league he didn't make much impact.

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You will stop at nothing to turn a good situation into a shyte one wont you.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

I used to think that Alpine got a lot of stick on here because a lot of people regarded almost as a passtime, however, I am beginning to think they could well be right, I hope he does not do work for the Samaritans as the suicide rate will increase ten fold; it could be that the glass is indeed half full at times, and as A.P. said, are international scouting has improved and that is how we got hold of GOOLIE, Q.E.D. A.P. must have seen video and had recomendations from our scout or scouts.

 

 

However, Alpine one thing you did get right is WIFM, I fully support that.

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Are we sure we are going to see a lot of Goolie, or are circumstances different this time and we will see him out of sheer desperation ?
The circumstances of his arrival are similar, but I see no reason (yet) to think he will play a bit part (ala Waigo) and I also wouldn't think that his frequent appearance in the team would be as a result of sheer desperation. He may appear frequently because he is better that what we have already. After Saturday we may have a better idea, although I can't see him being used for 90 minutes just yet.
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As has already been pointed out, Waigo WAS used last season. Thread is therefore redundant.

 

Who said he wasnt ? He wasnt exactly overused though, was he ? Thread is therefore not redundant, but please feel free to pass on by if you feel there is nothing of value for you here.

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Who said he wasnt ? He wasnt exactly overused though, was he ? Thread is therefore not redundant, but please feel free to pass on by if you feel there is nothing of value for you here.

 

You wouldn't want to be complaining he was overused either would you ?

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Can you explain why AP was so reluctant to use him then, if he knew all about him ?

 

I think the reason was that he was a bit of a wild card player. His unpredictability was his biggest strength but also his biggest weakness. Many times during games you could see AP totally lose his rag with Papa for giving the ball away cheaply and leaving us under counter attack which is almost certainly why Papa was not a regular last season, AP never felt he could totally trust him.

 

I undertstand that this may have gone unnoticed to those who never actually go to games but instead form strong opinions from what emmits from a wireless in a foreign land.....

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Apparently the Papa signing was APs.

 

He was on his radar when he was manager of West Ham.

 

I know at one point, West Ham had an Italian as DoF. This may have been in Pardew's time. It may explain how he came to be on West Ham's radar.

 

This would may not make as interesting reading as the jucier conspiracy theories, granted.

 

HTH

 

To support your WHU link this is what AP said in the buildup to the Colchester game last season

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10280~1787575,00.html

 

Pardew continued: "Papa Waigo comes to us from Fiorentina and he's highly recommended. I spoke to Gianluca Nani, the General Manager at West Ham and he said that he would be very surprised if we pulled off the signing.

"We've managed to do it though, and now Papa has a platform here to really push on. He'll offer real pace and athleticism to our front line, and we're looking forward to seeing him today (Friday). If his work permit comes through he could be available for Saturday.

"Amongst us, we obviously have contacts at various clubs, and we've used that knowledge to assist us more than anything else so far. We have a personal connection at Fiorentina, which helped, so we're lucky to have him ....

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On another Saints site, the editorial is suggesting that AP might not have been behind the loan of Goolie. I assume the inference is that this is an NC-inspired signing, what with the Italian connection...

 

The same piece reminds of a similar loan last season, Papa, who although he definitely brought something to the team, enhanced our options and scored goals, was not permanently signed despite an option to do so; the word being AP didnt take to him and he didnt take to AP. When you consider how sparsely he was used, his goal return wasnt that bad.

 

The AP-Papa situation may have been driven mainly by a personality clash; however, it is equally possible that the personality clash was caused by a reluctance to play him from AP.

 

The question bodes, therefore : Are we sure we are going to see a lot of Goolie, or are circumstances different this time and we will see him out of sheer desperation ?

 

More holes in that lot than a tramps cacks.

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To support your WHU link this is what AP said in the buildup to the Colchester game last season

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10280~1787575,00.html

 

Thanks for posting that. AP sounded positively bubbling with enthusiasm for Papa at that stage. Sad that it didnt turn out like that. fingers crossed that this time round is more successful.

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Thanks for posting that. AP sounded positively bubbling with enthusiasm for Papa at that stage. Sad that it didnt turn out like that. fingers crossed that this time round is more successful.

 

It would be unfair to say Papa was failure. As loans go it was a pretty successful one. Granted he was not as important to our season as RL and AL but he was def the biggest reason we won our first silverwear in decades.

 

As loans go he certainly wasn't in the Sarmiento, Arias, Tejera envelope.....

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It would be unfair to say Papa was failure. As loans go it was a pretty successful one. Granted he was not as important to our season as RL and AL but he was def the biggest reason we won our first silverwear in decades.

 

As loans go he certainly wasn't in the Sarmiento, Arias, Tejera envelope.....

 

I agree with this - AP would only get the opportunity to se where & how he could be fitted in to our team once he had taken a good look at him in both training & match situations.

 

AP decided that his most effective role was as used...not like he'd spent millions on that chance & I believe that Papa was a resounding success - as used...something different & with great pace. A number of his goals came when he had appeared to have lost control of the ball but it still ended up in the net - I would be delighted if he returned but can't help feeling that it would have happened if it was going to.

 

For Guly read as above....no huge risk but possible potential beyond a L1 average standard performer. What's not to like? Talk of personality clashes or differences over policy or player choice is irrelevant if the player can do the job that AP needs.

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I think the reason was that he was a bit of a wild card player. His unpredictability was his biggest strength but also his biggest weakness. Many times during games you could see AP totally lose his rag with Papa for giving the ball away cheaply and leaving us under counter attack which is almost certainly why Papa was not a regular last season, AP never felt he could totally trust him.

 

I undertstand that this may have gone unnoticed to those who never actually go to games but instead form strong opinions from what emmits from a wireless in a foreign land.....

 

Why did you spoil an interesting post with the stupid unecessary dig ?

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Why did you spoil an interesting post with the stupid unecessary dig ?

 

Alpine I have never been one to take part in the have a go at other posters on TSW, but is this a case of the truth hurts and once_bitterne has struck a nerve. You do from time to time come up with some valid points but if you are that unhappy with the way the club is being run and the players that are being brought in which you tend to portray, is it not time for you to find anther club to follow?

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Can you explain why AP was so reluctant to use him then, if he knew all about him ?

 

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I think the reason was that he was a bit of a wild card player. His unpredictability was his biggest strength but also his biggest weakness. Many times during games you could see AP totally lose his rag with Papa for giving the ball away cheaply and leaving us under counter attack which is almost certainly why Papa was not a regular last season, AP never felt he could totally trust him.

 

I undertstand that this may have gone unnoticed to those who never actually go to games but instead form strong opinions from what emmits from a wireless in a foreign land.....

 

This would make sense to me, if it wasn't for the fact that Pardew never loses his rag/drops Puncheon for doing exactly the same thing.

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Can you explain why AP was so reluctant to use him then, if he knew all about him ?

 

If you want a depth of squad, some players won't get as many games as others.

 

Make your mind up - do you want more players in the squad as back up or not? I'm starting to get confused with what exactly you want?

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If you want a depth of squad, some players won't get as many games as others.

 

Make your mind up - do you want more players in the squad as back up or not? I'm starting to get confused with what exactly you want?

 

Alpine can't live without his double standards.

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Alpine I have never been one to take part in the have a go at other posters on TSW, but is this a case of the truth hurts and once_bitterne has struck a nerve. You do from time to time come up with some valid points but if you are that unhappy with the way the club is being run and the players that are being brought in which you tend to portray, is it not time for you to find anther club to follow?

 

The thing I REALLY don't get about Alpine is that he doesn't seem to gain one single shred of pleasure from following Saints. He puts a negative slant on everything that happens with the club. I cannot fathom why someone would spend so much of their free time obsessing over something that provides them with so little satisfaction. I mean why would you bother? You'd just go and find a hobby that gives you a little more in return or spend more time with the family.

 

Yes, supporting Saints is not as easy as being an arm-chair Manc but to most reasonable fans each season brings new hope and every new signing has the potential of being a great. That's what being a supporter is all about. This is a perfect case in point, we're a fecking third tier English League club and yet we've gone and signed a Brazilian who would have been playing in Serie A if he had stayed where he was. So what do you do? a) look forward in anticipation to watching him play..... or b) get all depressed that he might be a signing of the Chairman and not the manager?

 

If haven't the slightest doubt that if ever got to the CL final against Madrid and Messi scored a hat-trick as we won 4-2 that Alps would start a thread the following morning on our worrying defensive frailties.....

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I dont think that parallel between the players can be anything more than them both coming in from Italy. None of us know anything about Guly so we can't compare him as a player with Papa and we can't yet make any assumption about how regularly he'll feature. He might end up becoming the sort of imapact sub that Papa excelled at, or he might be the first name on the teamsheet - who knows?

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The thing I REALLY don't get about Alpine is that he doesn't seem to gain one single shred of pleasure from following Saints. He puts a negative slant on everything that happens with the club. I cannot fathom why someone would spend so much of their free time obsessing over something that provides them with so little satisfaction. I mean why would you bother? You'd just go and find a hobby that gives you a little more in return or spend more time with the family.

 

Yes, supporting Saints is not as easy as being an arm-chair Manc but to most reasonable fans each season brings new hope and every new signing has the potential of being a great. That's what being a supporter is all about. This is a perfect case in point, we're a fecking third tier English League club and yet we've gone and signed a Brazilian who would have been playing in Serie A if he had stayed where he was. So what do you do? a) look forward in anticipation to watching him play..... or b) get all depressed that he might be a signing of the Chairman and not the manager?

 

If haven't the slightest doubt that if ever got to the CL final against Madrid and Messi scored a hat-trick as we won 4-2 that Alps would start a thread the following morning on our worrying defensive frailties.....

 

Very fair post.

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Can you explain why AP was so reluctant to use him then, if he knew all about him ?

 

Papa made 18 starts last season and 26 as sub.

 

Our wide players were

 

Lallana (IMHO best wide player in league 1 and who scored 20 goals)

Puncheon - our highest provider of assists and wide player in league 1 team of the season

 

We also had Antonio, who you and others think is a huge loss as 3rd choice.

 

Where is the confusion?

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The thing I REALLY don't get about Alpine is that he doesn't seem to gain one single shred of pleasure from following Saints. He puts a negative slant on everything that happens with the club. I cannot fathom why someone would spend so much of their free time obsessing over something that provides them with so little satisfaction. I mean why would you bother? You'd just go and find a hobby that gives you a little more in return or spend more time with the family.

 

Yes, supporting Saints is not as easy as being an arm-chair Manc but to most reasonable fans each season brings new hope and every new signing has the potential of being a great. That's what being a supporter is all about. This is a perfect case in point, we're a fecking third tier English League club and yet we've gone and signed a Brazilian who would have been playing in Serie A if he had stayed where he was. So what do you do? a) look forward in anticipation to watching him play..... or b) get all depressed that he might be a signing of the Chairman and not the manager?

 

If haven't the slightest doubt that if ever got to the CL final against Madrid and Messi scored a hat-trick as we won 4-2 that Alps would start a thread the following morning on our worrying defensive frailties.....

 

I like to hear both sides of an arguement though. Granted, Alpine does enjoy playing Devil's advocate but it is needed in a forum. A lot of you chaps bite far to readily.

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