Lord Duckhunter Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 but the recovery is going to be slow and sluggish simply because of all the money being taken out of the economy by budget cuts. But there are almost no cuts: public spending in 2011-12 was £681 billion against £689 billion in 2009-10, Labour's last year in power. The public sector is 50 per cent bigger now in real terms than a decade ago. The Government talk tough but tinker around the edges, exactly what Darling would have done had Labour been elected. One day somebody is going to have to really make cuts, deep, meaningful ones and clear up the mess. The pathetic thing about Cameron and Osbornes approach is that they are reaping the negative public reaction to cuts, whilst hardly making any.They are seen as serial cutters, but there aren't anywhere near the cuts there needs to be or the public believes there has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 But there are almost no cuts: public spending in 2011-12 was £681 billion against £689 billion in 2009-10, Labour's last year in power. The public sector is 50 per cent bigger now in real terms than a decade ago. The Government talk tough but tinker around the edges, exactly what Darling would have done had Labour been elected. One day somebody is going to have to really make cuts, deep, meaningful ones and clear up the mess. The pathetic thing about Cameron and Osbornes approach is that they are reaping the negative public reaction to cuts, whilst hardly making any.They are seen as serial cutters, but there aren't anywhere near the cuts there needs to be or the public believes there has been. Very few cuts so far, but they are scheduled to be much bigger from April 2013 onwards, unless they reverse policy on those too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 I'm trying to remove all vestiges of party politics from my motives, but I have to say that George Osborne is a liability to the coalition. I watched Ed Conway interview him at lunch time on Sky and it took just two questions to flummox him. 1) Have you personally felt the impact of the recession? 2) Have you ever travelled 2nd class on a train? The questions came from a theme that Conway was exploring - that Osborne and lots of politicians are shielded from the problems of the population as evidenced by Osborne's ability to pay for a 1st class rail fare. This leads to a feeling that we not all in it together and makes the man in the street believe that something else lies behind these motives. To my eye he gets tongue tied and can't answer. Instead of saying he is shielded from the recession by his wealth/wage and that he does travel 1st class because he sometimes needs to work on sensitive papers, he feels he can't answer because he will make himself the news. The interview is here. http://news.sky.com/story/1002496/recession-ends-amid-olympic-games-boost insightful commentary on it in the Telegraph blog here. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jameskirkup/100186526/george-osborne-just-wants-to-talk-about-gdp-sorry-chancellor-but-your-first-class-train-tickets-matter-too/ EDIT: It seems that the question about whether he'd travelled 2nd class was edited from the one that made the web. But he did leave in the lovely line of We're all in it together, unless the it one is referring to is a standard class rail carriage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 the whole train thing is hillarious the amount of times I have done what he has done is loads...so yeah, we are in this together as he does what I do..which is perfectly normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 the whole train thing is hillarious the amount of times I have done what he has done is loads...so yeah, we are in this together as he does what I do..which is perfectly normal Agreed. If Vince Cable had done it and said that he did it for work reasons and paid for it himself then that would be fine. But given his background and current job, Osborne has to be seen to be beyond reproach. Then when interviewed about it, instead of confronting it and turning it into a non-story. He stonewalls the question and gets himself tongue-tied. Week-in-week-out, he's taking the biggest one for the team ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 Agreed. If Vince Cable had done it and said that he did it for work reasons and paid for it himself then that would be fine. But given his background and current job, Osborne has to be seen to be beyond reproach. Then when interviewed about it, instead of confronting it and turning it into a non-story. He stonewalls the question and gets himself tongue-tied. Week-in-week-out, he's taking the biggest one for the team ever. In the Daily Politics yesterday, Andrew Neill was asked why Osborn never ever appears on the programme whereas Ed Balls is a regular contributor. He's prepared to be ripped to shreds and to give as good as he gets, but Georgie Tory boy? Never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 25 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October, 2012 I don't think Osborne has too much to worry about if the best the media can come up with is a few cheap jibes about train fares. Yes, I know they're trying to use it as a 'bigger picture' example but I believe the British public are clever enough to work out why people in senior positions are better off travelling away from the "plebs" (chortle) Talking of not making any political point scoring out of this... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9623075/The-gravy-train-185-MPs-travel-first-class-and-24-claim-for-club-class-flights.html More than 180 MPs - including a third of the shadow cabinet - are enjoying first-class train travel at the taxpayer’s expense, an investigation has revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 Trousers, I absolutely concur about Osborn and others needing to travel 1st class as they often work on sensitive material whilst in transit. However, I think the thing that stuck in my craw most was the fact that he tried to get away with not paying for an upgrade and allegedly not for the first time. What would happen to you, on your daily sojourn to Waterloo, if you snuck into a first class carriage on your second class ticket? Or do you already travel first class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 25 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October, 2012 Trousers, I absolutely concur about Osborn and others needing to travel 1st class as they often work on sensitive material whilst in transit. However, I think the thing that stuck in my craw most was the fact that he tried to get away with not paying for an upgrade and allegedly not for the first time. He tried to get away with paying for an upgrade? That's a different version to the one I've read. Would be interested to know what your source is on that one. From that Telegraph article (above): Aides of Mr Osborne have sought to clarify the Chancellor’s account of why he initially did not have a valid ticket while travelling on a train between Cheshire and London on Friday afternoon. A source close to Mr Osborne said the Chancellor changed his travel plans due to meetings in his constituency. “As he had no seat reservation on the new train, which was crowded, he decided to upgrade - and obviously intended and was happy to pay,” a Treasury source said. “An aide sought out the train manager and paid the ticket upgrade.” Virgin Trains, which operated the service, said that the Chancellor’s aide paid the £189.50 upgrade and there was no disagreement between the train manager and Mr Osborne or his staff. Hardly sounds like fare evasion to me. Depends who one choses to believe I guess.... Btw, Osborne is far from my favourite MP but he sets himself up as a bit of an easy target granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 He tried to get away with paying for an upgrade? That's a different version to the one I've read. Would be interested to know what your source is on that one. From that Telegraph article (above): Hardly sounds like fare evasion to me. Depends who one choses to believe I guess.... Btw, Osborne is far from my favourite MP but he sets himself up as a bit of an easy target granted. The story was broken via a series of tweets by ITV reporter Rachel Townsend, who works for Granada Reports in the North-West of England. She said: "Very interesting train journey to Euston Chancellor George Osborne just got on at Wilmslow with a STANDARD ticket and he has sat in FIRST CLASS... "His aide tells ticket collector he cannot possibly move and sit with the likes of us in standard class and requests he is allowed to remain in First Class. "Ticket collector refuses... I am a carriage away from the action but have asked ticket inspector if he was going to let him stay "no chance" "£160 for First Class upgrade... aide says no!.. "Breaking news: George Osborne pays £160 to stay in first class!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 25 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October, 2012 The story was broken via a series of tweets by ITV reporter Rachel Townsend, who works for Granada Reports in the North-West of England. She said: "Very interesting train journey to Euston Chancellor George Osborne just got on at Wilmslow with a STANDARD ticket and he has sat in FIRST CLASS... "His aide tells ticket collector he cannot possibly move and sit with the likes of us in standard class and requests he is allowed to remain in First Class. "Ticket collector refuses... I am a carriage away from the action but have asked ticket inspector if he was going to let him stay "no chance" "£160 for First Class upgrade... aide says no!.. "Breaking news: George Osborne pays £160 to stay in first class!" Yes, I saw those too. As I say, it depends whose account you believe. The train operator doesn't paint the same picture (cue conspiracy theory about Virgin not wanting to rock the boat after government u-turn on franchise...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 Yes, I saw those too. As I say, it depends whose account you believe. The train operator doesn't paint the same picture (cue conspiracy theory about Virgin not wanting to rock the boat after government u-turn on franchise...) Well that's a mystery then trousers. It either didn't happen the way the ITN journo said or Virgin, who are now back in with a chance of retaining the right to run the West Coast Mainline franchise, chose not to embarrass the Chancellor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 25 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October, 2012 (edited) Well that's a mystery then trousers. It either didn't happen the way the ITN journo said or Virgin, who are now back in with a chance of retaining the right to run the West Coast Mainline franchise, chose not to embarrass the Chancellor. Indeed. Believe the journo out to make a make for themselves and a story out of nothing every time I say... Edited 25 October, 2012 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 Indeed. Believe the journo out to make a make for themselves and a story out of nothing every time I say... Well you've convinced me. Have you convinced you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 25 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 25 October, 2012 Well you've convinced me. Have you convinced you? Nope. My mind is always open to either side being correct :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 14 November, 2012 Share Posted 14 November, 2012 Mervyn King speaks of potential triple dip recession and of his concerns that the UK is in a period of persistent low growth. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/14/uk-risks-triple-dip-recession-mervyn-king Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 14 November, 2012 Share Posted 14 November, 2012 Mervyn King speaks of potential triple dip recession and of his concerns that the UK is in a period of persistent low growth. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/14/uk-risks-triple-dip-recession-mervyn-king It seems silly to me that a one off bump caused by the Olympic Games etc. to bring us out of recession, followed by dropping back to the current natural level, is seen as worse than if we'd just stayed in one long dip for the whole time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 14 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 14 November, 2012 It seems silly to me that a one off bump caused by the Olympic Games etc. to bring us out of recession, followed by dropping back to the current natural level, is seen as worse than if we'd just stayed in one long dip for the whole time... "Triple Dip" offers our esteemed media outlets a much more sensational news headline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 14 November, 2012 Share Posted 14 November, 2012 "Triple Dip" offers our esteemed media outlets a much more sensational news headline Very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintfully Posted 14 November, 2012 Share Posted 14 November, 2012 "Govt backed stimulus (olympics) prompts economic growth" shock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 14 November, 2012 Share Posted 14 November, 2012 "Govt backed stimulus (olympics) prompts economic growth" shock! How dare they! We need more cuts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 21 November, 2012 Share Posted 21 November, 2012 Uh oh! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20424492 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 21 November, 2012 Share Posted 21 November, 2012 Aha - now waiting for trousers response in the indeterminable game of "green shoots tennis" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 November, 2012 Surely this is good news? Extra spending and borrowing is good for the economy innit. Well, that's what Milliband has been banging on about for two years. Bravo the ConDems! (Chortle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 21 November, 2012 Share Posted 21 November, 2012 No Trousers - we're having to borrow more because we're not spending / paying as much tax. Equals a downward spiral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 November, 2012 No Trousers - we're having to borrow more because we're not spending / paying as much tax. Equals a downward spiral. You mean we should be spending more money at Starbucks to create more jobs and stimulate the economy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 21 November, 2012 Share Posted 21 November, 2012 Oh Trousers, shame on you. Ploughing the Slough of Despair (with apologies to Milton - John that is, not Keynes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 21 November, 2012 Share Posted 21 November, 2012 Deuce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 21 November, 2012 Share Posted 21 November, 2012 I still think that trousers is the right-winger most likely to turn. Come the glorious revolution, I plan to offer him the Ministry of Whattaboutery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 22 November, 2012 Share Posted 22 November, 2012 No Trousers - we're having to borrow more because we're not spending / paying as much tax. Chap on R4 yesterday reckoned that over £10bn tax is lost through tax avoidance schemes each year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 22 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 22 November, 2012 Chap on R4 yesterday reckoned that over £10bn tax is lost through tax avoidance schemes each year. How does that £10bn 'loss' to the exchequer compare to the amount these 'tax avoiders' contribute to the economy (directly or indirectly) as a whole? In other words, if we were to boot, say, Starbucks out of the country would the nett result be a - ve or +ve effect on the economy? I've no idea what the answer is btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 22 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 22 November, 2012 I still think that trousers is the right-winger most likely to turn. Come the glorious revolution, I plan to offer him the Ministry of Whattaboutery. The ghost of Verbal lives on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 22 November, 2012 Share Posted 22 November, 2012 The ghost of Verbal lives on... Future quote from trousers, probably. "... And what about capitalism, eh? Means of production given to a select few while the general public is fobbed off with ineffective democracy!" Like I say, probably Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 22 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 22 November, 2012 @PKF_UK: Hotels across the UK enjoy a strong October, says PKF's Govinda Singh - http://t.co/QeeTkCXk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 22 November, 2012 Share Posted 22 November, 2012 How does that £10bn 'loss' to the exchequer compare to the amount these 'tax avoiders' contribute to the economy (directly or indirectly) as a whole? In other words, if we were to boot, say, Starbucks out of the country would the nett result be a - ve or +ve effect on the economy? I've no idea what the answer is btw. They dont have to leave, just pay a reasonable amount of tax, same as Joe Bloggs running the coffee shop next has too. Otherwise they have a competitive advantage, joe bloggs goes bust, more jobs lost, less tax paid, more cash flowing to offshore accounts and on and on. (Fast forward 500 years, the cayman islands and google own all the countries and have renamed them in their image.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSoulBoy Posted 22 November, 2012 Share Posted 22 November, 2012 "Triple Dip" offers our esteemed media outlets a much more sensational news headline Chap on R4 yesterday reckoned that over £10bn tax is lost through tax avoidance schemes each year. But that's alright because it's legal........immoral maybe but still legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 22 November, 2012 Share Posted 22 November, 2012 In other words, if we were to boot, say, Starbucks out of the country would the nett result be a - ve or +ve effect on the economy? Given the allegations concerning how their supply chain is constructed to ensure purchases of their principal product's ingredients are ultimately sourced from offshore, I doubt their net contribution amounts to much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 22 November, 2012 Share Posted 22 November, 2012 But there are almost no cuts: I suggest you do some digging into the planning for Local Government finances for the next 3 or 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 Any green shoots yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano6 Posted 7 December, 2012 Share Posted 7 December, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 7 December, 2012 Author Share Posted 7 December, 2012 When you remove as much nutrients from the soil as Labour did over 13 years it takes much longer for the seeds of prosperity to germinate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 7 December, 2012 Share Posted 7 December, 2012 Given the allegations concerning how their supply chain is constructed to ensure purchases of their principal product's ingredients are ultimately sourced from offshore, I doubt their net contribution amounts to much. Right, I'm off to start a new coffee plantation on the old British Steel site at Port Talbot. Who's with me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 12 December, 2012 Author Share Posted 12 December, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20691842 [h=1]UK unemployment falls by 82,000[/h] The number of people out of work fell by 82,000 between August and October, to 2.51 million, official figures have shown. The unemployment rate was 7.8%, down 0.2 percentage points from the previous three months. The Office for National Statistics also said that the number of people claiming Jobseeker's Allowance fell 3,000 to 1.58 million in November. Total pay was up 1.8% compared with the same period last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 12 December, 2012 Author Share Posted 12 December, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20680442 Bombardier wins £106m contract Train-maker Bombardier has won a £106m contract to maintain Virgin trains on the West Coast Main Line. It extends a current deal to 2016, with work mainly carried out at its depot in Burton-on-Trent, Staffordshire, where it employs 360 people. Bombardier said it would allow the company to continue its "strong relationship" with Virgin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 12 December, 2012 Share Posted 12 December, 2012 (edited) http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/04a84352-41fc-11e2-bb3a-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2EpcRSmpC "Vince Cable, business secretary, has admitted there is “clearly a risk” of the UK entering a triple-dip recession and facing a Japanese-style lost decade of stagnant economic growth" "Mr Cable confirmed there would be a “long hard slog” for several years and that even a return to growth would not provide the hoped-for feelgood factor among the electorate. “Interest rates will go back to normal and that will affect a lot of people whose mortgages are hanging by a thread at the moment,” he said. “Even the recovery is going to be very painful.”" "The business secretary criticised Mr Osborne’s delivery of measures to cut welfare, accusing the chancellor of “demonising” the jobless. “Most people are out of work through no fault of their own,” he said. “The worst thing you can do is insult them.”" Back to you Trousers Edited 12 December, 2012 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 12 December, 2012 Share Posted 12 December, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20691842 UK unemployment falls by 82,000 The number of people out of work fell by 82,000 between August and October, to 2.51 million, official figures have shown. The unemployment rate was 7.8%, down 0.2 percentage points from the previous three months. The Office for National Statistics also said that the number of people claiming Jobseeker's Allowance fell 3,000 to 1.58 million in November. Total pay was up 1.8% compared with the same period last year. Also, we now have the highest number of people in employment since records began in 1971. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 13 December, 2012 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2012 David Cameron @David_Cameron Fantastic to be @Airbus factory in Flintshire for Q&A with employees & to celebrate a new deal securing 9,000 jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 13 December, 2012 Share Posted 13 December, 2012 Bombardier wins £106m contract. It extends a current deal to 2016, with work mainly carried out at its depot in Burton-on-Trent, Staffordshire, where it employs 360 people. David Cameron @David_Cameron Fantastic to be @Airbus factory in Flintshire for Q&A with employees & to celebrate a new deal securing 9,000 jobs. So were are being asked to celebrate the fact that trains continue to be maintained and a factory not closing in North Wales is grounds for the PM to visit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 13 December, 2012 Share Posted 13 December, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20720383 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 13 December, 2012 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2012 So were are being asked to celebrate the fact that trains continue to be maintained and a factory not closing in North Wales is grounds for the PM to visit? In today's worldwide gloomy economic climate, yes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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