PM to give the Europe vote

[Barry Sanchez]

I just want a bit of credit for sniffing him out early when it all comes out in the wash.

 

Pap that will never come out in the wash as its rubbish and if you believe that I dont live in Liverpool then you are supremely paranoid, hold on, you are.

[Barry Sanchez]

I hope you got your email from Watson on the 22nd and Byrne on the 21st?

[pap]

Multiculturalism is working exactly as designed. It just isn't designed to do what you think it is. With respect to segregated communities, that has happened for two reasons. Reason one is what the US likes to term "white flight", fearful white folk moving out of the area because darker folk have moved in. Reason two is largely the opposite of the first, white folk who really didn't like the darker folk, and gave them such a hard time that the folks rocking different racial origins thought "bugger this, there's that neighbourhood down there where there are hardly any white people. Let's move there" ( see Reason one ).

 

Spin on a few generations, and multiculturalism has achieved its goal - at least in terms of bemusing the worlds' witless and putting them in conflict with each other. People spend time worrying about their jobs, their facilities, blaming the Polish, the EU or whomever.

 

My take is that we're all pretty much the same. All subject to the same base impulses, desires and inherent responsibilities. We're all getting sh4t on from a high height, expected to bail out a sector of industry. The top knobs in the capitalist gangbang must be rubbing their filthy hands with glee, watching f**kwits tear strips out of each other because of comparatively minor ethnic or religious differences.

 

As for moving on, I think we need something in the mould of a truth and reconciliation debate on the race issue. Lay out all the taboos, speak plainly about the current situation and talk about the sort of country we're going to be. Isolated gated silos like they have in the US, or integrated communities that treat each other with respect. Got to be give and take on all sides, imo.

[aintforever]

Err - no it isn't.

 

I can't see how the NHS and jobs market would have coped WITHOUT migrants from Europe TBH

 

You can still have immigrants when you are not in the EU, just control it and let in the skills needed.

 

At the moment we have Polish doing the work for half the price while British people sit round on benefits, paid for by you and me, because it's not worth their while.

 

Doesn't matter what you or I do, chances are there is someone in Romania willing to do the same job for a fraction of the salary.

[Barry Sanchez]

You did not comment upon the labour emails?

Do you still believe I dont live in Liverpool?

 

 

Multiculturalism has failed communities hugely as they are multi not one, to me there is the point, I would love to see the UK/World as one but quite simply we have to find bonds that bind us in a Nation where some reject faith and other actively embrace it, some actively embrace their Nation others actively reject it.

[pap]

You did not comment upon the labour emails?

Do you still believe I dont live in Liverpool?

 

 

Multiculturalism has failed communities hugely as they are multi not one, to me there is the point, I would love to see the UK/World as one but quite simply we have to find bonds that bind us in a Nation where some reject faith and other actively embrace it, some actively embrace their Nation others actively reject it.

 

You mean national press releases?

 

Labour North West, mate. Not hard.

[Barry Sanchez]

Multiculturalism is working exactly as designed. It just isn't designed to do what you think it is. With respect to segregated communities, that has happened for two reasons. Reason one is what the US likes to term "white flight", fearful white folk moving out of the area because darker folk have moved in. Reason two is largely the opposite of the first, white folk who really didn't like the darker folk, and gave them such a hard time that the folks rocking different racial origins thought "bugger this, there's that neighbourhood down there where there are hardly any white people. Let's move there" ( see Reason one ).

 

Spin on a few generations, and multiculturalism has achieved its goal - at least in terms of bemusing the worlds' witless and putting them in conflict with each other. People spend time worrying about their jobs, their facilities, blaming the Polish, the EU or whomever.

 

My take is that we're all pretty much the same. All subject to the same base impulses, desires and inherent responsibilities. We're all getting sh4t on from a high height, expected to bail out a sector of industry. The top knobs in the capitalist gangbang must be rubbing their filthy hands with glee, watching f**kwits tear strips out of each other because of comparatively minor ethnic or religious differences.

 

As for moving on, I think we need something in the mould of a truth and reconciliation debate on the race issue. Lay out all the taboos, speak plainly about the current situation and talk about the sort of country we're going to be. Isolated gated silos like they have in the US, or integrated communities that treat each other with respect. Got to be give and take on all sides, imo.

 

 

People can not lay out the taboo's as the fascist left (there I said it again) will roll out the usual words and ignorant insults.

 

Arranged Marriage

Caste System

Mixed Marriage

Womens Rights

 

Talking about these creates unease and simply gets pushed under the carpet, football is a great way though for people to interact and break down barriers and sport in general.

[Barry Sanchez]

You mean national press releases?

 

Labour North West, mate. Not hard.

 

Angela Eagle on the 15th is the only one I have lately.

[buctootim]

Across the board or confined to nationalists?

 

Was chatting to a work colleague yesterday - a Dutch woman working for us based in Brussels advising on the EU and lobbying there - and it was her informed view. I have seen this article though which explains the Netherlands situation.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/cas-mudde/dutch-elections-and-eurosceptic-paradox

[pap]

Angela Eagle on the 15th is the only one I have lately.

 

Don't have that one oddly.

[Barry Sanchez]

Really? You either are not in the Labour Party or you are lying, do you want me to tell you what its about young Pap?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

BS - it would help me to appreciate your views better if you can briefly define what you mean by "multiculturalism" and outline a scenario where it might be consider to be working. Cheers.

[Barry Sanchez]

Multiculturalism is in short exactly what it says multi as opposed to one culture, multiple cultures are supposed to live in harmony together side by side, this can happen when there are educated wealthy people living in good spacious conditions or when there is a dictator in place (Iraq,Syria and many others) keeping in check all its citizens.

What has happened in this Country is we have allowed people to live side by side but not with each other as it easier for them to live with their own lifestyles without seeing the others, this in turn has created false impressions of each other and suspicion.

 

 

What should we do?

 

Difficult now but faith schools are an issue that there is no doubt and so is our perceived weakness at our own law and order (Abu Qatada) with our relationship with Europe, we need to make this place something with an identity and something that all can associate with? Whats that? Again very very different people here so finding a binding thing for us all is nearly impossible but that is what will be needed for healing and empathy to start.

 

What are your thoughts on Multiculturalism, Europe and social intergration?

Edited 25 January, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Tricky one. For many people multiculturalisam has and is working. The vast majority of people from the vast majority of communities are law-abiding and get on with people from other communities - this would seem to fit your definition above. Integration is varied from no cross-over for many to lots of cross-contact for others. I take issue that this can only happen in rich areas or under dictatorship. I don't know London that well but have relations in South London who live in very mixed neighbourhoods where people generally get along with each other even though they are not "rich" areas. Under dictatorships you don't get genuine multiculturalism. What you tend to get is multiple ehtnicities being forced to live according to rules of the ruling ethnic group.

 

The trouble is that whenever something bad happens that has a community/ethnicity angle to it then people are quick to point out that "multiculturalism" has failed ignoring that it has worked for many and also that you get problems in any society. It isn't a choice between mutliculturalism and some mono-culture utopia. In a country with little multiculturalism and little multiethnicity you probably get a greater feeling of "we're all in it together" but that doesn't mean they don't have their own social and economic problems.

 

The other angle is that often the biggest opposition to "multi-culturalism" in the UK doesn't come from wards in which there is lots of different cultures but actually from wards that border on multicultural wards but are very monocultural. I guess it could be described as the fear of "them" by the "us". When that BNP list became public a few years ago (note- I'm not saying all those against multi-culturalism are BNP sympathisers, more like all BNP members are against multiculturalism) I looked at the membership by local authority in the East Midlands (where my dad lives) and the greatest concentrations of members weren't in Leicester for example which is very mixed but in neighbouring rural areas which were very "white".

 

I recongnise that there are problems in many towns across the UK but the cause of this is largely economic decline and de-industrialisation that has reduced the demand for unskilled physical labour and wrenched traditional focal points from small communities (the mill, the mine, the factory etc). The trouble with the northern mill towns was that large number of migrants went there just before the industry collapsed, whereas in more prosperous areas immigration has been attracted to growing industries that have remained prosperous.

 

Anyway beginning to ramble here but as you can probably gather I'm very positive about multiculturalism (as well as the EU).

[Barry Sanchez]

I am sceptical of the EU but not against it, I dont believe in multiculturalism anymore then I believe in the toothfairy, it does not exist in the way it was supposed to be intended, a lack of tolerance is only being shown today in East London, thats not people thats a religion telling people gay practices are bad, as they do in Jamaica.

There are many Labour party members and Unions against the EU and further intergration so I dont accept the right wing view of that to be honest, there are many on all sides of the politcal spectrum against it(qt was good last night and was mostly about this) and futher powers being given or the possibility/or even seen to be given to Brussels.

[solentstars]

Tricky one. For many people multiculturalisam has and is working. The vast majority of people from the vast majority of communities are law-abiding and get on with people from other communities - this would seem to fit your definition above. Integration is varied from no cross-over for many to lots of cross-contact for others. I take issue that this can only happen in rich areas or under dictatorship. I don't know London that well but have relations in South London who live in very mixed neighbourhoods where people generally get along with each other even though they are not "rich" areas. Under dictatorships you don't get genuine multiculturalism. What you tend to get is multiple ehtnicities being forced to live according to rules of the ruling ethnic group.

 

The trouble is that whenever something bad happens that has a community/ethnicity angle to it then people are quick to point out that "multiculturalism" has failed ignoring that it has worked for many and also that you get problems in any society. It isn't a choice between mutliculturalism and some mono-culture utopia. In a country with little multiculturalism and little multiethnicity you probably get a greater feeling of "we're all in it together" but that doesn't mean they don't have their own social and economic problems.

 

The other angle is that often the biggest opposition to "multi-culturalism" in the UK doesn't come from wards in which there is lots of different cultures but actually from wards that border on multicultural wards but are very monocultural. I guess it could be described as the fear of "them" by the "us". When that BNP list became public a few years ago (note- I'm not saying all those against multi-culturalism are BNP sympathisers, more like all BNP members are against multiculturalism) I looked at the membership by local authority in the East Midlands (where my dad lives) and the greatest concentrations of members weren't in Leicester for example which is very mixed but in neighbouring rural areas which were very "white".

 

I recongnise that there are problems in many towns across the UK but the cause of this is largely economic decline and de-industrialisation that has reduced the demand for unskilled physical labour and wrenched traditional focal points from small communities (the mill, the mine, the factory etc). The trouble with the northern mill towns was that large number of migrants went there just before the industry collapsed, whereas in more prosperous areas immigration has been attracted to growing industries that have remained prosperous.

t people get along,its the extemes

Anyway beginning to ramble here but as you can probably gather I'm very positive about multiculturalism (as well as the EU).

agree and someone who is a dagenham boy ,people do get along but i find its the extremists in most cases who love stroking up tensions and hate normally groups from the facist far right bnp,edl,nat front and the conservative ideology of islamic fundamentalists and their ilk and when i travel to mainland europe i find most young people with the same in attitudes most liking the same clothes and music,films etc has the uk.it depends on wether you see doom and gloom or are a optismist or want to live in the past. i,m a optimist .

[Barry Sanchez]

agree and someone who is a dagenham boy ,people do get along but i find its the extremists in most cases who love stroking up tensions and hate normally groups from the facist far right bnp,edl,nat front and the conservative ideology of islamic fundamentalists and their ilk and when i travel to mainland europe i find most young people with the same in attitudes most liking the same clothes and music,films etc has the uk.it depends on wether you see doom and gloom or are a optismist or want to live in the past. i,m a optimist .

 

Sorry Solent you have not said anything there really, we all know people are the same and we all agree on that, its the one person who can make reasonable people into sheep following their hateful rhetoric.

[pap]

I am sceptical of the EU but not against it, I dont believe in multiculturalism anymore then I believe in the toothfairy, it does not exist in the way it was supposed to be intended, a lack of tolerance is only being shown today in East London, thats not people thats a religion telling people gay practices are bad, as they do in Jamaica.

There are many Labour party members and Unions against the EU and further intergration so I dont accept the right wing view of that to be honest, there are many on all sides of the politcal spectrum against it(qt was good last night and was mostly about this) and futher powers being given or the possibility/or even seen to be given to Brussels.

 

What are you planning with this character?

 

With the whole Labour Party angle you could slowly cross the floor of the house, berating as you go. I'll forward you some Labour Party North West emails so you can engineer authentic grievances. There will be massive fecking plotholes (naturally) but I think it could be a go-er.

 

Also, next time you go abroad, don't muck about with any of this passport malarkey. Just reference your 9 month old not606 account. I'm sure that'll do.

 

Do we have an answer yet?

[Barry Sanchez]

Do we have an answer yet?

 

An answer for what? You when I have given you adequate proof? Why would I lie? You must drive the women crazy with your suspicious odd behaviour. I told you about some emails and you dont believe me, thats your problem Mavis not mine, move along, move along.

[Barry Sanchez]

Do we have an answer yet?

 

Did you not get the Eagle email? Oh you must live in Sholing and in the tory party then, pap you are a lier, I dont believe you.

[solentstars]

http://youtu.be/768h3Tz4Qik ha ha reminds me of the far right

[trousers]

@SkyNewsBreak: Conservative party to publish draft bill on EU referendum tomorrow with the intention of legislating in this parliament

[hypochondriac]

@SkyNewsBreak: Conservative party to publish draft bill on EU referendum tomorrow with the intention of legislating in this parliament

 

Sounds good to me.

[Jonnyboy]

Conservative party tearing itself apart over Europe once again. Labour to romp home in 2015.

[Colinjb]

@SkyNewsBreak: Conservative party to publish draft bill on EU referendum tomorrow with the intention of legislating in this parliament

 

Good.

[Colinjb]

Conservative party tearing itself apart over Europe once again. Labour to romp home in 2015.

 

With Ed in charge they will never maximise their chance.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Conservative party tearing itself apart over Europe once again. Labour to romp home in 2015.

 

Labour will be forced to go into the election matching the Tory pledge for an in/out referendum, they will not have the nerve to tough it out and not promise one. The lib/dems had one in their last manifesto, so would be strange not to also have that pledge. The establishment don't want one of course, and their get out will a coalition. All establishment parties pledge will be slightly different, and contain the proviso that "they form the next government". Now if you're correct and labour romp to victory, they will be stuck with a 2017 referendum, which will cast a shadow over everything political. Its also a referendum where labour could be on the losing side, its hard to see millliband continuing after backing an IN for economic reasons , only for the public to reject that. I really believe that an outright win at the next election could be a poisoned chalice.

 

There's a lot to play out and its premature to think labour have it in the bag. Not least the independence vote in Scotland, salmond could be the Tory saviour yet . Also the economy could show real signs of recovery by election. And finally there's the prospect of some sort of Ukip / Tory pact, there's no doubt a united right could hang onto power.

 

The real drama will play out in next years European elections, if Ukip top them, then the establishment really will be panicking.

[pap]

Cameron's latest move is not legit. They're talking about using any means necessary to get the bill heard at Parliament, including the use of a Private Member's bill. Without any will behind it, the legislation will most likely be talked out of time and will never happen, allowing Cameron to blame Parliament for not giving the British people the opportunity to choose, then trumpeting the usual line that only a Conservative majority in the next election will get you a referendum.

[pap]

I did not know that Bob Crow's position, and that of the RMT, is unequivocally for British withdrawal and an early in-out referendum.

 

As everything he says is complete sh!t, according to some of our right-wingers on here, an EU exit must therefore be a bad thing.

[Batman]

well, well, well

its seems people cant get enough about talking tough on immigrants

 

UKIP swaying politics in a big way

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10055613/Labour-sent-out-search-parties-for-immigrants-Lord-Mandelson-admits.html

 

the swell of opinion will mean we will have an in/out vote in the next few years, and the UK will vote out

[Batman]

I did not know that Bob Crow's position, and that of the RMT, is unequivocally for British withdrawal and an early in-out referendum.

 

As everything he says is complete sh!t, according to some of our right-wingers on here, an EU exit must therefore be a bad thing.

 

I agree with crowe.

 

never forget Labours pledge of "british jobs for british people"

whilst actively looking to employ non brits

 

working well, that one

[Lord Duckhunter]

I did not know that Bob Crow's position, and that of the RMT, is unequivocally for British withdrawal and an early in-out referendum.

 

.

 

Crow's position has been known for ages, he was on QT months back and basically has the same position as Nigel F. Uncontrolled mass immigration from poor Eastern European states is harming the job prospects and wages of ordinary unskilled/low skilled British workers. Just goes to show that no matter how hard the BBC and establishment try to portray it as a right wing "golf club" issue , it's a lot more fluid than that.

[badgerx16]

So, to summarise :

 

David Cameron makes a pledge to the British public that if the Tories win the next election, and if he can re-negotiate the terms of our EU membership, we will get an In/Out vote. ( No mention of what happens if he cannot re-negotiate ). Now we have a group of Tory MPs who obviously don't understand the compromises necessary when in coalition with a pro-EU partner, who also don't seem to trust that DC will deliver on his promise, and want to go against all precedent and introduce an amendment to their own Government's Queen's Speech. In response, DC instructs his Conservative Cabinet members that they must abstain in the vote on the QS amendment, he then drafts a pointless 'Bill' that will try to place the In/Out vote on the statute books, and is now casting around for a back bencher to promote it as a Private Members' Bill, that will fail due to lack of Parliamentary time, ( and the fact that the LDs would vote against it with Labour, should it ever get that far ).

 

What a shambles.

[Saintandy666]

well, well, well

its seems people cant get enough about talking tough on immigrants

 

UKIP swaying politics in a big way

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10055613/Labour-sent-out-search-parties-for-immigrants-Lord-Mandelson-admits.html

 

the swell of opinion will mean we will have an in/out vote in the next few years, and the UK will vote out

 

I don't know about that... the pro-EU side have barely started arguing yet. There's just been a lot of shouting and posturing from one side, so we should wait and see what happens. Also, at the locals, iirc UKIP got c. 20% in the wards they stood in, which a. is in selective wards and b. is not that high and c. is inflated by the local election effect. I doubt they will get many seats at the general election... perhaps Farage as he has the personality factor, but beyond that I'm not sure. I also suspect that the established parties are holding back bringing attention to some of the more nasty realities of UKIP like their tax policy and so on...

[Lord Duckhunter]

I don't know about that... the pro-EU side have barely started arguing yet. There's just been a lot of shouting and posturing from one side, so we should wait and see what happens. Also, at the locals, iirc UKIP got c. 20% in the wards they stood in, which a. is in selective wards and b. is not that high and c. is inflated by the local election effect. I doubt they will get many seats at the general election... perhaps Farage as he has the personality factor, but beyond that I'm not sure. I also suspect that the established parties are holding back bringing attention to some of the more nasty realities of UKIP like their tax policy and so on...

 

When Ukip top the European elections next year, what's your excuse going to be then.

 

You can't use the excuse that people are only hearing one side of the debate as the whole debate will be about European issues. You can't hide behind number of seats won, as the vote is proportional. People like you are going to have to find some really ingenious ways of spinning the pathetic results the pro EU lib/dems and labour will achieve.

[badgerx16]

When Ukip top the European elections next year....

 

 

Are you any better at predictions than Dalek ?

[Lord Duckhunter]

The Lib/Dems really do have a problem with pledges, first tuition fees now this.

 

 

 

 

[trousers]

The Lib/Dems really do have a problem with pledges, first tuition fees now this.so the pledge was never broken, they simply didn't get the opportunity to implement it.

 

 

 

 

 

To be fair to Clegg, the Tuition Fee pledge was only valid if they won the last general election, which they didn't.

[Verbal]

Are you any better at predictions than Dalek ?

 

I doubt it, and it's all a bit tiresome. For once, Boris Johnson - of all people - got it right the other day when he said that Europe is a scapegoat for problems in the UK which are actually caused by "chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure."

 

If you actually ask how the EU negatively affects Ukippers and their fellow travellers personally and directly, they seem suddenly to lack the ability to form words.

[solentstars]

I doubt it, and it's all a bit tiresome. For once, Boris Johnson - of all people - got it right the other day when he said that Europe is a scapegoat for problems in the UK which are actually caused by "chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and under-investment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure."

 

If you actually ask how the EU negatively affects Ukippers and their fellow travellers personally and directly, they seem suddenly to lack the ability to form words.

 

Agree I.m just waiting for the idiot wing of the tory party to carry on destroying the party from within .

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[CB Saint]

I am on the sceptical side of the line, although I don't believe the rhetoric from both sides. If we stay in we are not going to be flooded with baby snatching Romanian gypos as some would have you believe. Conversely, big business is not going to up sticks en mass if we leave. The reality is somewhere in the middle.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Agree I.m just waiting for the idiot wing of the tory party to carry on destroying the party from within .

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

Lets see who are the idiots at the next European elections. The euro fanatic lib/dems, the pro European labour party or the Euro sceptic torys and anti european Ukip.

 

last time the vote was Tory, Ukip ,labour, lib Dems in that order.

 

This time it could be Ukip, Tory, labour, lib Dems.

 

For all your waffle about idiot wings and the like, the order at European elections is defined by how euro fanatic you are. The most pro European partys get the least votes.and I've no doubt the same thing will happen next year.

 

The country is heading out of the union, its just a question of when, not if. The reason we are heading out is because the establishment did not tell us the truth, did not get the publics approval for the transfer of powers over the years and dictated to,in stead of taking the British public with them. The genie is out of the bottle now and there's no putting it back in.

[badgerx16]

Conversely, big business is not going to up sticks en mass if we leave.

 

Perhaps not en masse, but London is the largest international financial market for the Euro zone - if we leave, the Germans & French won't let that continue.

[Batman]

perhaps not en masse, but london is the largest international financial market for the euro zone - if we leave, the germans & french won't let that continue.

 

lol

[badgerx16]

Perhaps not en masse, but London is the largest international financial market for the Euro zone - if we leave, the Germans & French won't let that continue.

lol

 

Thanks for adding such an informed comment to the debate.

[pap]

To be fair to Clegg, the Tuition Fee pledge was only valid if they won the last general election, which they didn't.

 

There is no being fair to Clegg. He's a political opportunist and I have difficulty believing anything he says. The Lib Dems, for all their bluster, are not conviction politicians. They fervently believe in one thing, then a few years later, are seen as the blocking party in an EU referendum because they believe the exact opposite thing to what they did in 2009.

 

Only valid if they won the last general election? Doesn't wash for me. You've got a PM who wants a referendum and coalition partners that don't, even though it was their policy in 2009, and they really really believed it then. Tubes.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Perhaps not en masse, but London is the largest international financial market for the Euro zone - if we leave, the Germans & French won't let that continue.

 

Well 3 ex Chancellors ( one Labour, 2 Tory) disagree with you. All 3 have said they are in favour of withdrawal, I would have thought they would know a bit more about the international markets than you or I.

[Barry Sanchez]

82% of the people want the vote, regardless of opinion on Europe this is a blatant denial of politicians listening to the people.

[Orange]

It's worth remembering Clegg's first job was being an apprentice in the EU- of course he'd be a Europhile.

[Barry Sanchez]

It's worth remembering Clegg's first job was being an apprentice in the EU- of course he'd be a Europhile.

 

Wife was with him yesterday, thought of him as an absolute bore.