Is extending the ground at the end of next season actually true?

[Roger]

3 people I know that have been to corporate hospitality have said that the club officials are saying we will make the ground 50k capacity if we stay up next season. Does anyone know if this is actually true?

[Wes Tender]

3 people I know that have been to corporate hospitality have said that the club officials are saying we will make the ground 50k capacity if we stay up next season. Does anyone know if this is actually true?

 

Oh dear, Roger. What have you done?

 

Brace yourself for the incoming flak about how we'd never fill the enlarged ground unless we're in the Champions League beating Barcelona and Bayern Munich and that's never going to happen, because to get there, we'd have to be capable of beating the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester City. And in any event, we don't have the catchment area, because there just aren't 50,000 people in the immediate area who would be willing to pay to watch us play, except of course unless it's at Wembley for a minor Cup.

[RobM]

The problem is, we simply don't know if it's true. Those who do know, or would know if it is true, won't be able to say or stupid enough to speak publicly about the plans. But once a rumour starts it spreads and the moment somebody inside the club (even hospitality staff) repeats it, it gains credibility.

 

I'd be amazed if this sort of thing wasn't being considered, but I'd be equally amazed if those involved in the planning were talking about it publicly.

[jampot]

Did the stadium tour yesterday and there is some truth in this. However, it will only happen when Saints have finished in the top 5 for a couple of seasons. I found it interesting that the stadium to build now would cost 10 times as much as it actualy did....

[Andre]

hope so

[Matthew Le God]

The stadium to build now would cost 10 times as much as it actualy did.

 

No chance is that true.

 

A 32k stadium to St Mary's specification for over £300 million!

 

Brighton have a better stadium, with a slightly smaller capacity for well under half that.

Edited 7 April, 2013 by Matthew Le God

[stardustonmyfeet]

Brighton's stadium only cost 5x as much as ours? Wow, they must be laughing.

[for_heaven's_Saint]

Brighton's stadium only cost 5x as much as ours? Wow, they must be laughing.

 

Think they paid £90million? Seems rather a lot...

 

Back to SMS, I hope we make it just a little bit bigger and a lot less sh*t.

[stevegrant]

Difficult to compare the cost of St Mary's and the Amex as the circumstances are polar opposites. St Mary's is built on "brownfield" land in the city with no local opposition, the Amex is on "greenfield" land in the countryside where the locals and conservationists fought tooth and nail to prevent it being built, which led to countless public inquiries and intervention by the government.

 

In terms of the cost, we know for a fact that expansion costs significantly more than the original build (roughly £1000 per seat). Andrew Cowan went on the record nearly a decade ago to say expansion at that time would cost around £3000 per seat, and the cost of building stadia has increased significantly in the years since St Mary's was built. If another 10,000 seats were added, a figure of £50m probably wouldn't be that far out.

 

I'm not entirely convinced timescales would allow any expansion to begin next summer, the planning process for something that substantial would surely take longer than a year.

[scotty]

 

the planning process for something that substantial would surely take longer than a year.

 

Not necessarily.

 

What we would need is someone to approach the planning board on our behalf, clandestinely. A wheeler-dealer with experience of backhanders and brown envelopes. Perhaps someone with previous experience at Southampton and/or the South Coast, maybe somebody who might not be in their present job at the end of this season.

 

I cant think of any obvious candidates though.

[stevegrant]

Not necessarily.

 

What we would need is someone to approach the planning board on our behalf, clandestinely. A wheeler-dealer with experience of backhanders and brown envelopes. Perhaps someone with previous experience at Southampton and/or the South Coast, maybe somebody who might not be in their present job at the end of this season.

 

I cant think of any obvious candidates though.

[B Rabbit]

The planning decision would take 13 weeks at best once submitted... Assuming everything is there.

It would probably take a couple of month do draw up the plans prior to that.... Could take a few month of pre planning (which is what they are currently doing it seems).

 

once planning is achieved, we will have 3 years to start building before permission runs out.. All the detail construction drawings could take a while... I imagine at a guess, planning would be sought for the end of a season... Say this one! And all the construction drawings worked up during the off season and next season with a view to starting on site the day the season finishes.

 

theres next to no chance it will be built on 3-4 months to have it open for the start of the following season though

[The Kraken]

Think they paid £90million? Seems rather a lot...

 

Back to SMS, I hope we make it just a little bit bigger and a lot less sh*t.

 

That's what the previous concept drawings have suggested could be in the pipeline; a big extension of the Kingland, minor extensions of Northam and Chapel, and a new "skin" for the stadium exterior.

 

I know our "Ikea flatpack" design gets a bit of stick for not being unique and a bit bland. Personally I haven't got a problem with it; and you'd be hard pushed to argue that any seat of the 32,689 is anything but a great view for a football ground. And if we do press on with plans to increase, that in turn will being an element of uniqueness to the design.

 

Now, if Cortese could just live up to his promise to get drinks sold much quicker on matchday, that is one stadium improvement I'd really like to see! Drinks queues, particularly in the Chapel, are absolutely awful. Build that into the design please, NC; lots and lots of new kiosks.

Edited 7 April, 2013 by The Kraken

[The Kraken]

once planning is achieved, we will have 3 years to start building before permission runs out.. All the detail construction drawings could take a while... I imagine at a guess, planning would be sought for the end of a season... Say this one! And all the construction drawings worked up during the off season and next season with a view to starting on site the day the season finishes.

 

Why 3 years? Reading had 5 years for their expansion plans, which recently ran out.

 

There's no reason plans can't be drawn up and submitted now, while holding on for another year, two years, whatever until the decision is made to actually go ahead with it.

[jampot]

No chance is that true.

 

A 32k stadium to St Mary's specification for over £300 million!

 

Brighton have a better stadium, with a slightly smaller capacity for well under half that.

 

 

Just saying what the tour guide said. He said the stadium was bulit with option to increase to a 50,000 seater. The roof removed and added on to. He also confirmed the under soil heating was in place but will not be used until the stadium is bigger etc as the expense is massive. But none of this will happen unless we are a team regularly pushing for a euro/champions league place etc....

[The Kraken]

Just saying what the tour guide said. He said the stadium was bulit with option to increase to a 50,000 seater. The roof removed and added on to. He also confirmed the under soil heating was in place but will not be used until the stadium is bigger etc as the expense is massive. But none of this will happen unless we are a team regularly pushing for a euro/champions league place etc....

 

The stadium was originally designed/built so that the current footprint could relatively easily be increased in size up to around 48,000. Up to 4,000 extra seats in the Northam, up to 8,000 in the Kingsland, and up to 4,000 in the Chapel. This goes all the way back to Lowe's days and as stevegrant pointed out earlier, the cost of £3,000 per addtional seat was often mooted by Andrew Cowen at the time.

 

So, there is still a potential to increase to that size. Whether there is a desire is another matter altogether. The concept images released to date don't give too much away in that regard, but what litttle detail they do have suggests to me that the concept is not a 50K stadium, more 40K - 45K at the absolute most.

[The Kraken]

As for the undersoil heating, again this has always been the case. The stadium was originally built with heating but it has never been switched on; our climate here means it is largely unncecessary, and there's no cost-benefit justification to spend the amount of money that would be required to have the under-soil heating running compared to the actual risk of games being called off because of a frozen pitch.

[Crab Lungs]

No chance is that true.

 

A 32k stadium to St Mary's specification for over £300 million!

 

Brighton have a better stadium, with a slightly smaller capacity for well under half that.

 

I didn't realise you were an expert in building/architects fields as well. Please, tell me more.

[dubai_phil]

Us lot buying seats is one thing, at the end of the day our demand can withstand a 10 or 12% ticket price increase (No that doesn't mean I would agree with it just elasticity of demand)

 

BUT what WOULD be a determining factor in WHEN to extend won't be us lot, it will be about how many PREMIUM price seats can they add - ie Corporate - now from what I have seen on telly, corporate is only selling out when there is no other way of getting a ticket to a match (elasticity of demand at work?) 1 corporate seat is worth anything from 4 to 8 times what one of our pleb seats is to the club. When there is a waiting list for Corporate at the beginning of the season and another row of or two of boxes can be added, then THAT starts to make the Economics of an expansion more valid.

 

IMHO of course

[Dimond Geezer]

Why 3 years? Reading had 5 years for their expansion plans, which recently ran out.

 

 

Under the planning laws, three years is the maximum time period allowed in which to start work once full permission has been granted (interestingly, there is no time period in which work has to be completed). However, if Outline permission was granted, there is an additional two years in which can be used to tidy-up the reserved matters, giving a total of 5 years. This could have been the case for Reading.

 

 

 

To answer the original question, there is no way that we could apply for planning tomorrow, and have the Stadium ready for the start of next season. There will need to be daetailed plans drawn up by an Architect, Structural Engineers, M & E Engineers, etc. Without speculating about the others, us Structral Engineers aren't the quickest off the blocks.

[Barry Sanchez]

Oh dear, Roger. What have you done?

 

Brace yourself for the incoming flak about how we'd never fill the enlarged ground unless we're in the Champions League beating Barcelona and Bayern Munich and that's never going to happen, because to get there, we'd have to be capable of beating the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester City. And in any event, we don't have the catchment area, because there just aren't 50,000 people in the immediate area who would be willing to pay to watch us play, except of course unless it's at Wembley for a minor Cup.

You rip up your season ticket every now and then in a girly strop so thats one extra space.............

[Barry Sanchez]

Did the stadium tour yesterday and there is some truth in this. However, it will only happen when Saints have finished in the top 5 for a couple of seasons. I found it interesting that the stadium to build now would cost 10 times as much as it actualy did....

 

So in short never.

[The Kraken]

Under the planning laws, three years is the maximum time period allowed in which to start work once full permission has been granted (interestingly, there is no time period in which work has to be completed). However, if Outline permission was granted, there is an additional two years in which can be used to tidy-up the reserved matters, giving a total of 5 years. This could have been the case for Reading.

 

To answer the original question, there is no way that we could apply for planning tomorrow, and have the Stadium ready for the start of next season. There will need to be daetailed plans drawn up by an Architect, Structural Engineers, M & E Engineers, etc. Without speculating about the others, us Structral Engineers aren't the quickest off the blocks.

 

Cheers. And to clarify; what is the difference between outline permission and standard planning permission? Does one lead in to the other, or are they separate?

[david in sweden]

I would have thought there was discussion about a possible expansion at the time the stadium was built, there surely must be an architects drawing lying around somewhere with such proposals,

I can't believe that it would take a lot of time /work to update it.... for all we know, NC may already have a copy in his desk drawer.

[70's Mike]

The stadium was originally designed/built so that the current footprint could relatively easily be increased in size up to around 48,000. Up to 4,000 extra seats in the Northam, up to 8,000 in the Kingsland, and up to 4,000 in the Chapel. This goes all the way back to Lowe's days and as stevegrant pointed out earlier, the cost of £3,000 per addtional seat was often mooted by Andrew Cowen at the time.

 

So, there is still a potential to increase to that size. Whether there is a desire is another matter altogether. The concept images released to date don't give too much away in that regard, but what litttle detail they do have suggests to me that the concept is not a 50K stadium, more 40K - 45K at the absolute most.

 

agreed those are the facts

[Wes Tender]

You rip up your season ticket every now and then in a girly strop so thats one extra space.............

I've explained that situation enough times that others with more intelligence than you have understood it perfectly well. I'll make allowances therefore that it might take much more time to penetrate your cranium.

 

My ST seat hasn't been available these past years since Lowe's departure, neither will it be again in the foreseeable future (unless he returns).

Clear, or should I try and simplify it still further just for your benefit?

[Dimond Geezer]

Cheers. And to clarify; what is the difference between outline permission and standard planning permission? Does one lead in to the other, or are they separate?

 

Outline is an agreement in principle, full permission is what you get on a detailed submission. For example, you could be granted outline permission to build a 3-bed house with offroad parking on a plot of land you may own, you can then sell the land to a developer who would get full plans drawn-up, specifing the finishes, size, height, layout, parking arrangement etc, this is then submitted to the Local Authority for Full permission.

You don't need to have Oultine before going for Full, but if there are contentious issues, you can 'test the water' by going for the cheaper Outline permission first.

[kpturner]

3 people I know that have been to corporate hospitality have said that the club officials are saying we will make the ground 50k capacity if we stay up next season. Does anyone know if this is actually true?

 

What club officials would be saying this sort of thing in corporate hospitality? Is corporate hospitality where secrets are shared or something? I have been in CH many times and we have never had club officials visiting to let us in on their big secrets

 

Roger you do have an uncanny knack of making yourself sound a bit simple.........(waits for some insulting riposte involving painters called Turner )

[St Chalet]

We need to sell out most games next season and prove that it isn't just a novelty season.

[The Kraken]

We need to sell out most games next season and prove that it isn't just a novelty season.

 

Do that and you'd be hard pushed to argue against the merits of an expansion of some sort. Just as it should be; a couple of years at least to gauge the merits of a bigger crowd from actual crowds/sell outs.

[Matthew Le God]

We need to sell out most games next season and prove that it isn't just a novelty season.

 

Do you honestly think there is even the slightest possibility it is a "novelty season" and people won't turn up next year? What does that really mean anyway?

Edited 7 April, 2013 by Matthew Le God

[Turkish]

I've explained that situation enough times that others with more intelligence than you have understood it perfectly well. I'll make allowances therefore that it might take much more time to penetrate your cranium.

 

My ST seat hasn't been available these past years since Lowe's departure, neither will it be again in the foreseeable future (unless he returns).

Clear, or should I try and simplify it still further just for your benefit?

 

Still denying it. To he fair it is embarassing.

[CB Fry]

Still denying it. To he fair it is embarassing.

 

 

 

You can tell Wes is struggling when he wheels out his favourite "penetrate your cranium" line.

 

Floundering like a Koi Carp on a patio table.

[saintmatt]

I think 40k would be about right. About right for the size of our fanbase and about right for football stadiums in general; I think you sacrifice a bit of atmosphere if you go any bigger as you lose the tight/claustrophobic feel of the place and chants etc get "lost" against the sheer number of people there - think the emirates, wembley etc

 

Be good to have the outside of the stadium tarted up as well, give the place a bit of identity and distance from the flat pack tag

[CB Fry]

Do you honestly think there is even the slightest possibility it is a "novelty season" and people won't turn up next year? What does that really mean anyway?

 

Have a look at Villa. Not long ago they finished sixth three seasons in a row. That third season they got to a Wembley semi and a Wembley final. And European football of course. Pretty sweet, eh?

 

Guess what? The second and third of those three seasons their average attendance went down. And down. Year three was lowest of the three.

 

Funny that. Casual fans get bored. Novelty wears off.

 

A home match against Fulham in November is dull whether we're twentieth or fifth.

[um pahars]

I would have thought there was discussion about a possible expansion at the time the stadium was built, there surely must be an architects drawing lying around somewhere with such proposals,

I can't believe that it would take a lot of time /work to update it.... for all we know, NC may already have a copy in his desk drawer.

 

Would be interested to know where the notion that SMS was built with it being easy to expand/ build on to the existing stands came from, as I've never seen it mentioned anywhere apart from snippets on here.

 

I remember SMS being a bit of a gamble at 32k, when Stoneham was around the 24k mark, so can't imagine anyone at the time was ever thinking about 40k+.

 

Granty's correct in that Cowen would regular quote £3k per seat to expand, but he never went in to details about whether tht would be a bolt on to an existing stand or a knock down and rebuild of a stand (or two).

 

Have any of the other BARR grounds been extending upwards???

[St Chalet]

Do you honestly think there is even the slightest possibility it is a "novelty season" and people won't turn up next year? What does that really mean anyway?

 

We didn't sell out every week the many years we were in the Premiership. Once the novelty of being a Prem team again has worn off in a year or two will we sell out the less glamourous fixtures? It is only worth expanding the ground if we could get near filling it for all games, not just the top 4.

 

Well done on stating their isn't the slightest chance of a novelty season, and then asking what I mean by it

[Ampersound]

We start winning trophies and people will come but realistically it's not going to happen very often.

[Matthew Le God]

We didn't sell out every week the many years we were in the Premiership. Once the novelty of being a Prem team again has worn off in a year or two will we sell out the less glamourous fixtures? It is only worth expanding the ground if we could get near filling it for all games, not just the top 4.

 

All four previous Premier League seasons at St Mary's we averaged over 30k with numerous sellouts not just against the "big" clubs. Including the relegation season when we came 20th.

 

Cortese clearly has ambitions and seemingly the resources to match the ambitions that go far above anything we had under Rupert Lowe or any previous ownership since the club was founded in 1885.

 

We will likely have 11/12 sellouts from 19 league games this season, others were close to sold out. All in a season where we have been in a relegation battle until any real concern faded yesterday.

 

If we sellout St Mary's and average over 30k in a season at the bottom, imagine if we had a team of internationals competing for European places and a decent chance of a cup run every year.

 

Well done on stating their isn't the slightest chance of a novelty season, and then asking what I mean by it

 

It was a rhetorical question.

[hypochondriac]

Still denying it. To he fair it is embarassing.

What did Wes do this time?

[hypochondriac]

He's doing it again. It was sooo much better when he disappeared for a month or two.

[The Kraken]

All four previous Premier League seasons at St Mary's we averaged over 30k with numerous sellouts not just against the "big" clubs. Including the relegation season when we came 20th.

 

Cortese clearly has ambitions and seemingly the resources to match the ambitions that go far above anything we had under Rupert Lowe or any previous ownership since the club was founded in 1885.

 

We will likely have 11/12 sellouts from 19 league games this season, others were close to sold out. All in a season where we have been in a relegation battle until any real concern faded yesterday.

If we sellout St Mary's and average over 30k in a season at the bottom, imagine if we had a team of internationals competing for European places and a decent chance of a cup run every year.

 

You miss the point every single time with this one. A "sell out" has little relevance on its own. Its when the game sells out that really matters. If we sell out on the day, then it suggests that the stadium size is around about right. And creating a sense of demand is a good thing, if only a few people are missing out.

 

We really need to be looking at how many games sell out many days, even weeks in advance. That's a good barometer that we could sell thousands of extra seats. Not just hundreds, that selling out on the day or a day or two previous would indicate.

 

This season we've only done that against the big sides. We've even had the opportunity against some sides to sell more home seats than would ordinarily be available (through the away side returning theirs) and not been able to sell out.

[Matthew Le God]

You miss the point every single time with this one. A "sell out" has little relevance on its own. Its when the game sells out that really matters. If we sell out on the day, then it suggests that the stadium size is around about right. And creating a sense of demand is a good thing, if only a few people are missing out.

 

We really need to be looking at how many games sell out many days, even weeks in advance. That's a good barometer that we could sell thousands of extra seats. Not just hundreds, that selling out on the day or a day or two previous would indicate.

 

This season we've only done that against the big sides.

 

Not true, we've sold out long in advance for a number of games.

 

Next home game vs West Ham for example, sold out 2 weeks before matchday!

[The Kraken]

Not true, we've sold out long in advance for a number of games.

 

Next home game vs West Ham for example, sold out 2 weeks before matchday!

 

West Ham I'll give you; list the others, would you please?

[St Chalet]

All four previous Premier League seasons at St Mary's we averaged over 30k with numerous sellouts not just against the "big" clubs. Including the relegation season when we came 20th.

 

Cortese clearly has ambitions and seemingly the resources to match the ambitions that go far above anything we had under Rupert Lowe or any previous ownership since the club was founded in 1885.

 

We will likely have 11/12 sellouts from 19 league games this season, others were close to sold out. All in a season where we have been in a relegation battle until any real concern faded yesterday.

 

If we sellout St Mary's and average over 30k in a season at the bottom, imagine if we had a team of internationals competing for European places and a decent chance of a cup run every year.

 

 

 

It was a rhetorical question.

 

So to take your argument further, what is it worth to sell 10000 more tickets for 8 games a season?

[Matthew Le God]

West Ham I'll give you; list the others, would you please?

 

Depends what you class as a "big side".

 

The sellouts have been...

 

Man Utd

Tottenham

Newcastle

Sunderland

Arsenal

Man City

QPR

Liverpool

Chelsea

West Ham

 

I think West Brom may not sellout, but you never know.

 

But Stoke on the last game of the season will.

 

Some of the other games got close to sellouts - Reading, Norwich Swansea, Wigan, Aston Villa. The Everton game wasn't helped by Saints sacking Adkins beforehand.

Edited 7 April, 2013 by Matthew Le God

[Matthew Le God]

So to take your argument further, what is it worth to sell 10000 more tickets for 8 games a season?

 

Thats 80,000 extra paying customers just for league games per year at Premier League prices. A stadium expansion isn't just for one year, the infrastructure will benefit Saints for decades to come. It also helps grow the fanbase with more people able to see games rather than supply not meeting the demand each time this season we've sold out. As you can see from the images from AFL, it isn't solely about extra seats, the whole stadium is developed, along with the surrounding area to provide extra revenue streams for the club in an era of FFP.

[The Kraken]

Depends what you class as a "big side".

 

The sellouts have been...

 

Man Utd

Tottenham

Newcastle

Sunderland

Arsenal

Man City

QPR

Liverpool

Chelsea

West Ham

 

I think West Brom may not sellout, but you never know.

 

But Stoke on the last game of the season will.

 

Sunderland sold out? With an attendance of 31,275? I feel not.

 

Newcastle did not sell out. They returned some tickets that they didn't sell, we didn't shift them all.

 

The games that sold out well in advance were Man Utd, Spurs, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea. QPR sold out but not long before the tie. West Ham we'll include too. And in amongst that the games that didn't sell out often had crowds under 30,000, and as low as 28,000.

Edited 7 April, 2013 by The Kraken

[SaintBobby]

Thats 80,000 extra paying customers just for league games per year at Premier League prices. A stadium expansion isn't just for one year, the infrastructure will benefit Saints for decades to come. It also helps grow the fanbase with more people able to see games rather than supply not meeting the demand each time this season we've sold out. As you can see from the images from AFL, it isn't solely about extra seats, the whole stadium is developed, along with the surrounding area to provide extra revenue streams for the club in an era of FFP.

 

Genuine question - do you think, in retrospect, Wolves have made a mistake in spending so much money expanding their stadium. You used to hold them up as a shining example.

[Matthew Le God]

Genuine question - do you think, in retrospect, Wolves have made a mistake in spending so much money expanding their stadium. You used to hold them up as a shining example.

 

I used them as an example of how quickly you can go from submitting a planning application to having bums on seats watching games. Not that Saints should copy their strategy 100%.

 

If Liebherr/Cortese intend to fund the stadium expansion/development of the land around the ground alongside investment in the team, then I have no issue as Saints under FFP need to increase revenue streams to compete. Wolves neglected the team and have suffered.

Edited 7 April, 2013 by Matthew Le God