All things Labour Party

[Hockey_saint]

This could be quite symptomatic of Labour's future. While the initial principles of the party were founded in Union activity there is a generation that has only known a Blairite Labour Party and that does not identify with a more traditional left wing ethos. While there has been a large ground swell of membership in Labour it doesn't necessarily indicate a wider spread validation of the shift to their roots that now seems inevitable.

 

No, you are right. We should also remember that throughout it's history, Labour has strongly resisted being seen as "too far left". In a way, I can see what Wade up there is saying in that my father says the same.....and then my mother chirps in (always being a union member and speaking at TUC conventions herself) with "well, you're dad as he's gotten older is like a car....slowly turning to the right". I digress, I think it's important to realise that we've all got a "pinch" of socialism in us and I think everyone on this board would go mad if, for example the conservatives did finally privatise the NHS....They probably wont as long as opinion is against it.

 

But I also think it's been so long since we've had anything to the left we don't know what it is and turn into Americans thinking everything slightly left of centre is commie.

Edited 17 August, 2015 by Hockey_saint

[Lord Duckhunter]

Jeremy does appear quite popular doesn't he? Especially for someone so unelectable. All this attracting people to join the party, playing to packed out houses and stuff like that - well, it's just plain silly. No one wins elections by being popular.....

 

I read the other day that Michael Foot was convinced the polls were wrong in '83. The reason being that his meetings were packed out, and everywhere he went he was greeted with enthusiastic crowds . The same thing is happening here , Corbyn is extremely popular with a large minority of the country and a majority of labour activists .The problem is under first past the post being extremely popular with even 30% of the electorate will not translate into the seats they need . Apart from Scotland where else are they going to gain seats ? Even if they won every single Sweaty seat, they're still short of a majority . Where are they going to take seats off the Tories with Corbyn in charge?

 

Corbyn is far more popular with the grassroots of his party and nearer to their politics than Cameron is to his, but elections aren't won like that . Until the electrol system is changed electing someone like Corbyn is just plain barmy .

[CB Fry]

I think we need Corbyn to win, now.

 

The whole thing will burn out, probably by the conference of 2017, leaving enough time for the party to end up with a leader (Hunt or Chukka, whose non-running in this sh it storm looks like a masterstroke now) who might just be able to take Boris on in 2020.

 

Corbyn not winning is likely to create a "we are the 45%" level of interminable sour grapes at grass roots that will just drag on if anyone else is leader.

 

So, let the Corbyn-ites have their little moment and we can all sit back and watch how someone who has spent the last 30 odd years in cosy backbench heaven copes with the requirement to compromise, negotiate, make decisions, lead a team and be held accountable for every decision.

 

Deep down we know Corbyn doesn't really want to be leader.

 

When he is he might begin to appreciate the challenge it brings compared to just being "principled" and cherry picking whichever party policies he wants to rebel against or otherwise.

 

And let's see how he copes in the 24 hour news spotlight when the narrative changes from "isn't it jolly exciting about this chap with a beard, he might win" to the weekly grind of forming a coherent opposition and appealing to the millions of normal people who live a world away from the excitable two hundred Labour activist cheerleaders at Ealing town hall. The news agenda rolls on, and once he's leader he is going to see it roll over him.

[Batman]

Cameron will tear Corbyn a new one in PMQs most weeks. More so than he did with milliband.

 

That does not even take into account what Boris could do in debates with him

[CB Fry]

Cameron will tear Corbyn a new one in PMQs most weeks. More so than he did with milliband.

 

That does not even take into account what Boris could do in debates with him

Completely. He'll be openly mocked. People like Andy Burnham will need to think hard about whether they want to be sat next him on the front bench when the Tories are just laughing at them.

[trousers]

This sums things up nicely, IMO...

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11805191/Jeremy-Corbyns-campaign-is-a-rational-response-to-30-years-of-compromise-and-failure.html

[Wade Garrett]

So. as a Labour voter and union member...what puts you off about them you know.....turning to the left?...I mean, until Blair radically transformed them into essentially a liberal party in 97, that's what they've always been...or did you secret wish they'd turn to the right?

 

It's just odd to me as it's what it says on the tin. I mean, if I wanted conservative, that's what I'd vote for...wasn't that the moral of the election?

 

I didn't secretly wish the party to turn to the right. I wanted the Tories out and a responsible Labour Government that would look out for the normal working person rather than the privileged few.

I want us to be more centrist than Corbyn will take us, but with the social conscience that the Tories have always lacked.

I want immigration to be curbed and controlled, it's driving wages down for normal working people and massively reducing work opportunities of our youth.

I want the NHS to be run by health professionals, not politicians. Same with schools, my kids go to an academy that seems to work well.

I want business to be encouraged to grow, but with the legislation of the Social Chapter to remain in place to protect the workforce from exploitation. I also want the gap between directors pay and workers narrowed.

I agree that work should pay. I agree that the welfare state should be a crotch for the needy not a lifestyle choice.

Law and order, after being to New York once or twice, I think we should do what worked for them, zero tolerance.

I think it's wrong that those who can't afford a lawyer, because of the reduction of legal aid, are being shat on by those who can.

My politics have evolved from the ideological politics of my youth, to what actually works. I will never vote Tory, however they dress themselves up they will always look out for the rich. I 100% disagree with their views of trickle down economics. Their austerity policies are unfair and have massively hit public services, the fire service, police etc. They have proved themselves incapable of policing our borders. They have an obsession with the free market in absolutely everything that I don't agree with.

Corbyn's policies would massively fail the nation and the working class.

[trousers]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/adammemonandtimknox/2015/08/corbynomics-a-path-to-penury/

 

The expansion of capitalism and free markets in recent decades has led to incredible economic and social progress; the fastest fall in extreme poverty in human history, rising life expectancy and plummeting levels of global hunger. Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-capitalist economic programme seems simply to ignore that history of success. The premise of Corbynomics is therefore that free market capitalism has failed in the UK with sectors ranging from energy to housing showing that markets cannot function to the benefit of society. This is deeply misguided.

 

As John Maynard Keynes once said, this is ‘an extraordinary example of how, starting with a mistake, a remorseless logician can end up in bedlam’. Of course many markets are not functioning as we would like them too. More often than not the fault rests with poorly targeted and excessive state intervention, and anti-competitive corporatism. Many markets need to be reformed but increasing state power, control and ownership is the antithesis of the reforms that are needed. In areas from tax policy to monetary policy, Corbynomics can only lead to chaos and calamity.

 

Corbynomics seems to believe in a World in which there is no scarcity, where no difficult decisions or trade-offs ever need to be made, and for which every single penny spent by the state is sacred (apart from on defence). Ultimately, this programme boils down to a huge expansion of the reach and power of government; a strategy which has been tried and tested to destruction. Britain is far from a free market paradise. High taxes, heavy regulation and weak competition still plague many parts of the economy and in the process damage growth and living standards. When Jeremy Corbyn and others condemn “neoliberalism” and the failure of many markets to deliver value for consumers, they may have identified some of the symptoms but not the cure or the cause. The answer to these problems is not in a return to nationalisation but in embracing pro-market reforms.

[trousers]

More discussion fodder...

 

https://medium.com/@Labour_Pains/13-reasons-not-to-vote-for-jeremy-corbyn-as-leader-of-the-labour-party-11d5656cac88

[View From The Top]

I read the other day that Michael Foot was convinced the polls were wrong in '83. The reason being that his meetings were packed out, and everywhere he went he was greeted with enthusiastic crowds . The same thing is happening here , Corbyn is extremely popular with a large minority of the country and a majority of labour activists .The problem is under first past the post being extremely popular with even 30% of the electorate will not translate into the seats they need . Apart from Scotland where else are they going to gain seats ? Even if they won every single Sweaty seat, they're still short of a majority . Where are they going to take seats off the Tories with Corbyn in charge?

 

Corbyn is far more popular with the grassroots of his party and nearer to their politics than Cameron is to his, but elections aren't won like that . Until the electrol system is changed electing someone like Corbyn is just plain barmy .

 

That's a fair assessment I'd say.

[View From The Top]

I didn't secretly wish the party to turn to the right. I wanted the Tories out and a responsible Labour Government that would look out for the normal working person rather than the privileged few.

I want us to be more centrist than Corbyn will take us, but with the social conscience that the Tories have always lacked.

I want immigration to be curbed and controlled, it's driving wages down for normal working people and massively reducing work opportunities of our youth.

I want the NHS to be run by health professionals, not politicians. Same with schools, my kids go to an academy that seems to work well.

I want business to be encouraged to grow, but with the legislation of the Social Chapter to remain in place to protect the workforce from exploitation. I also want the gap between directors pay and workers narrowed.

I agree that work should pay. I agree that the welfare state should be a crotch for the needy not a lifestyle choice.

Law and order, after being to New York once or twice, I think we should do what worked for them, zero tolerance.

I think it's wrong that those who can't afford a lawyer, because of the reduction of legal aid, are being shat on by those who can.

My politics have evolved from the ideological politics of my youth, to what actually works. I will never vote Tory, however they dress themselves up they will always look out for the rich. I 100% disagree with their views of trickle down economics. Their austerity policies are unfair and have massively hit public services, the fire service, police etc. They have proved themselves incapable of policing our borders. They have an obsession with the free market in absolutely everything that I don't agree with.

Corbyn's policies would massively fail the nation and the working class.

 

^^this^^

[Batman]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11808433/Why-are-Labour-Party-members-putting-up-with-the-Corbyn-cultists-claptrap.html

[Hockey_saint]

I didn't secretly wish the party to turn to the right. I wanted the Tories out and a responsible Labour Government that would look out for the normal working person rather than the privileged few.

I want us to be more centrist than Corbyn will take us, but with the social conscience that the Tories have always lacked.

I want immigration to be curbed and controlled, it's driving wages down for normal working people and massively reducing work opportunities of our youth.

I want the NHS to be run by health professionals, not politicians. Same with schools, my kids go to an academy that seems to work well.

I want business to be encouraged to grow, but with the legislation of the Social Chapter to remain in place to protect the workforce from exploitation. I also want the gap between directors pay and workers narrowed.

I agree that work should pay. I agree that the welfare state should be a crotch for the needy not a lifestyle choice.

Law and order, after being to New York once or twice, I think we should do what worked for them, zero tolerance.

I think it's wrong that those who can't afford a lawyer, because of the reduction of legal aid, are being shat on by those who can.

My politics have evolved from the ideological politics of my youth, to what actually works. I will never vote Tory, however they dress themselves up they will always look out for the rich. I 100% disagree with their views of trickle down economics. Their austerity policies are unfair and have massively hit public services, the fire service, police etc. They have proved themselves incapable of policing our borders. They have an obsession with the free market in absolutely everything that I don't agree with.

Corbyn's policies would massively fail the nation and the working class.

 

Yep, can't disagree with any of that (except, the working class bit, so removing tax credits is helping the working classes isn't it?). Although Lord Duckhunter, Corbyn is VERY (Suspiciously so maybe) popular in the polls. But Batman and CB Fry, have you seen his Oxford union debates, he's very articulate, much more so than you are clearly giving him credit? He basically tears John Redwood a new one...I wouldn't bank on him losing a debate in the commons. A lot of people have noted him for his frank and penetrating arguments and I probably wouldn't compare him to Milliband either as Ed was much weaker at this and the thing most people will tell you is that unlike a lot of Labour and Conservative MP's he comes across as incredibly honest and not deceitful which a lot of MP's do today, either way, it kinda comes of as gloating and remember that has this annoying habit of biting the gloater in the backside.

Edited 18 August, 2015 by Hockey_saint

[Batman]

Yep, can't disagree with any of that (except, the working class bit, so removing tax credits is helping the working classes isn't it?). Although Lord Duckhunter, Corbyn is VERY (Suspiciously so maybe) popular in the polls. But Batman and CB Fry, have you seen his Oxford union debates, he's very articulate, much more so than you are clearly giving him credit? He basically tears John Redwood a new one...I wouldn't bank on him losing a debate in the commons. A lot of people have noted him for his frank and penetrating arguments and I probably wouldn't compare him to Milliband either as Ed was much weaker at this and the thing most people will tell you is that unlike a lot of Labour and Conservative MP's he comes across as incredibly honest and not deceitful which a lot of MP's do today, either way, it kinda comes of as gloating and remember that has this annoying habit of biting the gloater in the backside.

he will get torn a new apart from the ken livingstone, sinn fein types in the country.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Yep, can't disagree with any of that. Although Lord Duckhunter, Corbyn is VERY (Suspiciously so maybe) popular in the polls. But Batman and CB Fry, have you seen his Oxford union debates, he's very articulate, much more so than you are clearly giving him credit? He basically tears John Redwood a new one...I wouldn't bank on him losing a debate in the commons. A lot of people have noted him for his frank and penetrating arguments and I probably wouldn't compare him to Milliband either as Ed was much weaker at this and the thing most people will tell you is that unlike a lot of Labour and Conservative MP's he comes across as incredibly honest and not deceitful which a lot of MP's do today, either way, it kinda comes of as gloating and remember that has this annoying habit of biting the gloater in the backside.

 

But PMQ's is not an oxford debate or even a TV debate , it's purely and simply a chance to get a decent sound bite on the 6pm news and to rally your mp's . Cameron will have mountains of sound bites , quotes from corbyns past and other stuff like return of clause 4 , add to that the fact that maybe a dozen high profile mp's would refuse to serve in his shadow cabinet Cameron will have a field day . There is no way people like Chucka, Alan Johnson , hunt or even Harperson will be seen cheering Jezza on or even touring the studios spinning for him . When most people watch the news , who are they going to see cheering Corbyn on , Abbott and other assorted leftie nutters . Add to that people like Galloway coming back into the fold, it'll be a disaster however well he does at pmqs. A lot of politics is perception rather than any sort of facts . Corbyn and Watson would be an absolute car crash with the swing seats they need to win.

[Hockey_saint]

he will get torn a new apart from the ken livingstone, sinn fein types in the country.

 

Problem with that is that the commons is now full of people who would support his arguments...(except obviously the conservatives, the career politicians in his own party and some Liberals). Did you see his response at the budget to a question from a tory mp on removing children out of poverty? he slaughtered the MP with quite a frank and to the point answer (i.e., well, Osbourne has been outstanding in moving the goalposts).

 

I've seen Cameron and Osborne debating in the common's they are not very sharp you know? Tony Benn could have walked all over them.

[Hockey_saint]

But PMQ's is not an oxford debate or even a TV debate , it's purely and simply a chance to get a decent sound bite on the 6pm news and to rally your mp's . Cameron will have mountains of sound bites , quotes from corbyns past and other stuff like return of clause 4 , add to that the fact that maybe a dozen high profile mp's would refuse to serve in his shadow cabinet Cameron will have a field day . There is no way people like Chucka, Alan Johnson , hunt or even Harperson will be seen cheering Jezza on or even touring the studios spinning for him . When most people watch the news , who are they going to see cheering Corbyn on , Abbott and other assorted leftie nutters . Add to that people like Galloway coming back into the fold, it'll be a disaster however well he does at pmqs. A lot of politics is perception rather than any sort of facts . Corbyn and Watson would be an absolute car crash with the swing seats they need to win.

 

Yeah, you're probably right about swing voters.

[CB Fry]

Yep, can't disagree with any of that (except, the working class bit, so removing tax credits is helping the working classes isn't it?). Although Lord Duckhunter, Corbyn is VERY (Suspiciously so maybe) popular in the polls. But Batman and CB Fry, have you seen his Oxford union debates, he's very articulate, much more so than you are clearly giving him credit? He basically tears John Redwood a new one...I wouldn't bank on him losing a debate in the commons. A lot of people have noted him for his frank and penetrating arguments and I probably wouldn't compare him to Milliband either as Ed was much weaker at this and the thing most people will tell you is that unlike a lot of Labour and Conservative MP's he comes across as incredibly honest and not deceitful which a lot of MP's do today, either way, it kinda comes of as gloating and remember that has this annoying habit of biting the gloater in the backside.

He's been in the Commons for 30 odd years and never once actually had any responsibility for a department or team in shadow or actual government. Never had to truly fight a cause he actually has responsibility to deliver.

 

Being a rebel in a gigantic majority government, or a singular voice in an weak, listless opposition = these things are not difficult. Corbyn has never been tested. We'll see how he performs when he has been tested. If he wins, the playing to the gallery and preaching to the choir will stop.

[Batman]

Problem with that is that the commons is now full of people who would support his arguments...(except obviously the conservatives, the career politicians in his own party and some Liberals). Did you see his response at the budget to a question from a tory mp on removing children out of poverty? he slaughtered the MP with quite a frank and to the point answer (i.e., well, Osbourne has been outstanding in moving the goalposts).

 

I've seen Cameron and Osborne debating in the common's they are not very sharp you know? Tony Benn could have walked all over them.

it does not matter who supports his arguments.

The TV coverage/highlights will be of the exchanges between Corbyn and Cameron. Some old duffer, who quite likes Putin, middle eastern terrorists and Gerry Adams will get torn to pieces by Cameron. Imagine the carnage if Boris enters the game. It will be humiliating.

 

the average joe will see that he is incapable of leading his party in the commons, let alone the country. (much like Ed)

 

Image plays a part these days (like it or not)...he best get ready for severe scrutiny (which he has never ever had) and pictures of him smiling, chatting to some seriously dodgy people will be online for the average voter to see.

He is already having to explain himself about supporting/giving money to a holocaust denier...this is just the start

 

also, the nation is not going to vote for some old duffle-coat wearing codger to lead us on the world stage.

Edited 18 August, 2015 by Batman

[Wade Garrett]

He'll probably have George Galloway as his right hand man. They can swap stories about when they sucked off terrorists and despots.

[Manuel]

I think you overestimate Cameron in his ability to win arguments. Have you seen him in the Commons? He barely answers anything, just steers every question into a dialogue which suits him. People are sick of all this make-believe politics and play acting, not to mention the nepotism and self interest. Corbyn offers something different to that, which is partly why people are interested in him.

[Batman]

I think you overestimate Cameron in his ability to win arguments. Have you seen him in the Commons? He barely answers anything, just steers every question into a dialogue which suits him. People are sick of all this make-believe politics and play acting, not to mention the nepotism and self interest. Corbyn offers something different to that, which is partly why people are interested in him.

 

which is fine for a pretty small amount of people in the country.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Even if I agreed with his various economic and domestic polices, which I most certainly do not, a politician who is on the record as saying quote ''I'd rather we weren't in it'' in respect of our NATO membership - IE the cornerstone of this nation defence - is simply not fit to represent the United Kingdom on the international stage.

 

As a potential Prime Minister this man is utterly unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

[CB Fry]

I think you overestimate Cameron in his ability to win arguments. Have you seen him in the Commons? He barely answers anything, just steers every question into a dialogue which suits him. People are sick of all this make-believe politics and play acting, not to mention the nepotism and self interest. Corbyn offers something different to that, which is partly why people are interested in him.

Nothing says "down with nepotism and self-interest" than a candidate entirely in bed with the union bloc.

[aintforever]

I still refuse to believe Labour would be dumb enough to make him leader, I expect they are just having a laff with these opinion polls.

 

I agree with his policy on Trident though, in our current financial state the very last thing we should be doing is blowing billions on a bunch of WMDs. Pointless and outdated.

[Hockey_saint]

I still refuse to believe Labour would be dumb enough to make him leader, I expect they are just having a laff with these opinion polls.

 

I agree with his policy on Trident though, in our current financial state the very last thing we should be doing is blowing billions on a bunch of WMDs. Pointless and outdated.

 

So you don't agree with him that it's wrong to target the poorest in society in the name of austerity then? As I say, there are a few things a lot of people would see as common sense. I disagree with the kids being targeted, their 2 child child benefit policy is a joke . Getting a French IT company to judge who's disabled or not is a complete travesty. I say this because Labour as they are would probably do the very same.

 

I would just like a change from this; Corbyn isn't it but neo-liberal politics are just awful today.

[aintforever]

So you don't agree with him that it's wrong to target the poorest in society in the name of austerity then? As I say, there are a few things a lot of people would see as common sense. I disagree with the kids being targeted, their 2 child child benefit policy is a joke . Getting a French IT company to judge who's disabled or not is a complete travesty. I say this because Labour as they are would probably do the very same.

 

I would just like a change from this; Corbyn isn't it but neo-liberal politics are just awful today.

 

I agree with the sentiment behind his policies and he has some nice ideas but the bottom line is his economic plans are way too risky. I don't have a great grasp of economics but even I know that just printing more money is no solution (even though that is what we have been doing already).

 

The only way Labour will ever get to power is with Blair style policies, you need to win over Middle England - it's that simple.

[Hockey_saint]

I agree with the sentiment behind his policies and he has some nice ideas but the bottom line is his economic plans are way too risky. I don't have a great grasp of economics but even I know that just printing more money is no solution (even though that is what we have been doing already).

 

The only way Labour will ever get to power is with Blair style policies, you need to win over Middle England - it's that simple.

 

I'm afraid that perhaps you are right. This article in the FT is pretty interesting though; the number's he's attracting are impressive and I don't agree that: "Ed Miliband was defeated because his party was not trusted on the economy or public spending" solely, I don't think he offered any variety, probably wasn't centre enough but was also a awful public speaker.

 

Either way, it's an interesting article: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fbf513f4-4584-11e5-b3b2-1672f710807b.html

[JackFrost]

I think we need Corbyn to win, now.

 

The whole thing will burn out, probably by the conference of 2017, leaving enough time for the party to end up with a leader (Hunt or Chukka, whose non-running in this sh it storm looks like a masterstroke now) who might just be able to take Boris on in 2020.

.

 

I suspect Corbyn will narrowly miss out when enough voters go for the safe option (Burnham most probably) at the death. Like you say if Corbyn got the gig he'd do well to last 5 minutes (may as well have gone the whole hog with Dennis Skinner)

 

Burnham will underwhelm his way to the 2020 election where we get a similar election result to 2015, although by then some fresh blood may just be credible enough to challenge.

 

Both Hunt (Etonian) and Chuka (dirt) stand little chance.

[Saintandy666]

I've been thinking though, and for a while I was on the page that Corbyn is Labour's IDS, ideologically pure etc etc. But traditional labour politics has none of the pragmatism of conservative purity. Add into that that out of the 600k voting, only 60k voted in the Miliband face-off in 2010 (there was a 'selectorate of 180k'). So the base has gone to the left, but the PLP hasn't. Regardless, let's say Corbyn goes on 5 more years and the membership slips that way as well. With 1 member one vote firmly in place, is the Labour party really going to elect a Chuka Umunna in 2020?!

[Hockey_saint]

double post soz.

Edited 18 August, 2015 by Hockey_saint

[Hockey_saint]

I've been thinking though, and for a while I was on the page that Corbyn is Labour's IDS, ideologically pure etc etc. But traditional labour politics has none of the pragmatism of conservative purity. Add into that that out of the 600k voting, only 60k voted in the Miliband face-off in 2010 (there was a 'selectorate of 180k'). So the base has gone to the left, but the PLP hasn't. Regardless, let's say Corbyn goes on 5 more years and the membership slips that way as well. With 1 member one vote firmly in place, is the Labour party really going to elect a Chuka Umunna in 2020?!

 

Like IDS?....Nah, Corbyn appears to care about the unemployed, the elderly and disabled. IDS is a horrible MP to compare anyone against. I'd find it hard to compare Maggie to that arsewipe. Compare IDS to Corbyn? the demon MP who fronted the removal of the ILF, the man who said he could live off £12 a week, the man who claimed JSA whilst living in his wife's mansion?...Come on, the members on this board seriously are not that far removed from reality? I mean, football fans have a reputation for being right-wing but jeremy clarkson!

[Saintandy666]

Like IDS?....Nah, Corbyn appears to care about the unemployed, the elderly and disabled. IDS is a horrible MP to compare anyone against. I'd find it hard to compare Maggie to that arsewipe. Compare IDS to Corbyn? the demon MP who fronted the removal of the ILF, the man who said he could live off £12 a week, the man who claimed JSA whilst living in his wife's mansion?...Come on, the members on this board seriously are not that far removed from reality? I mean, football fans have a reputation for being right-wing but jeremy clarkson!

 

I think you misunderstand what I mean when I compare the two. I wasn't originally saying their politics are anything alike, but that they both operate from analogous positions within their party. I pick him out as he is a essentially a good pure thatcherite, and not on the moderate wing of the party, and like with the Corbyn, the base thought (presumably) he was the top person to beat Blair as IDS appealed to them. He was the result of the activist base voting for a leader that makes them happy rather than having a bit of pragmatic compromise as they eventually did with Cameron.

 

But as I said in the original post, I'm wondering whether the Labour party will move from their IDS to a moderate reformer like Cameron, giving the massive change in the parties membership and the lack of pragmatism built into proper left of centre politics.

Edited 18 August, 2015 by Saintandy666

[shurlock]

I've been thinking though, and for a while I was on the page that Corbyn is Labour's IDS, ideologically pure etc etc. But traditional labour politics has none of the pragmatism of conservative purity. Add into that that out of the 600k voting, only 60k voted in the Miliband face-off in 2010 (there was a 'selectorate of 180k'). So the base has gone to the left, but the PLP hasn't. Regardless, let's say Corbyn goes on 5 more years and the membership slips that way as well. With 1 member one vote firmly in place, is the Labour party really going to elect a Chuka Umunna in 2020?!

 

Are the Tories that more pragmatic? They had to go through Hague, IDS and Howard -all to the right of the party- before they returned to terra firma and settled on the pragmatism of Cameron.

[Hockey_saint]

Are the Tories that more pragmatic? They had to go through Hague, IDS and Howard -all to the right of the party- before they returned to terra firma and settled on the pragmatism of Cameron.

 

Seems like a right of passage on both sides to me too. Although I don't think the Labour supporters resorted such sad tactics as registering as tories to get any of those, for the want of a better word....right-wingers in. I agree, but think about it, the right may be laughing now, but are they forgetting the referendum and the looming leadership battle if Cameron steps down with Johnson and Osborne?....that'll be fun to watch.

[niceandfriendly]

Give us a Prime Minister Corbyn and a President Sanders combo and the World might just have a glimmer of hope again.

 

Failing either or both of those outcomes, business as usual we're all entirely f*cked.

[niceandfriendly]

Cameron will tear Corbyn a new one in PMQs most weeks. More so than he did with milliband.

 

That does not even take into account what Boris could do in debates with him

 

And by that you mean Cameron would shout loudly and make jokes and that would be enough in your view to believe he tore him a new one. Whereas in fact Corbyn would wait for the Cameron nonsense and hysteria to settle down and then destroy him with facts and logic in a calm, humorous and succinct manner.

 

Can't wait to see Cameron finally having someone capable of embarrassing him in PMQs. #torieslol

[Saintandy666]

Are the Tories that more pragmatic? They had to go through Hague, IDS and Howard -all to the right of the party- before they returned to terra firma and settled on the pragmatism of Cameron.

 

A good Tory quote (from Ian Gilmour) was 'The wise conservative travels light'. All these things are simplifications, but I think the right of politics are willing to sacrifice more things and be a bit less ideological in the pursuit of power than the left are, who tend to squabble amongst themselves a lot more over small differences.

[Saintandy666]

And by that you mean Cameron would shout loudly and make jokes and that would be enough in your view to believe he tore him a new one. Whereas in fact Corbyn would wait for the Cameron nonsense and hysteria to settle down and then destroy him with facts and logic in a calm, humorous and succinct manner.

 

Can't wait to see Cameron finally having someone capable of embarrassing him in PMQs. #torieslol

 

 

Tbh, Corbyn may well perform well in PMQs to his own base and elsewhere, but it doesn't really matter. William Hague bossed PMQs for all the good it did him.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The difference between the election of IDS & Corbyn is that IDS got enough legitimate mp votes to go forward to the party membership . Corbyn didn't , but for some bizarre reason he was " lent " votes . What bunch of ****ing half wits decided that was a good idea?

 

The reason labour people didn't sign up to vote in IDS wasn't because they're principled and would do such a thing , it was probably because the Tories being slightly more competent , didn't let any tom , **** or Harry pay £3 to " join". Another great idea from the team wanting to run the country , I wouldn't let them run a bath , let alone the country .

 

What makes me laugh is for all the pleas from the labour Establishment for all the horror and pain they're going through , it's all their own fault . Burnham, Kendall & Cooper should be the contest , nobody in the real world would not vote labour in 2020 because Corbyn wasn't on the ballot 5 years earlier, but plenty will if he's leader. It's the political version of shooting yourself in the foot, then reloading and shooting the other foot .

Edited 19 August, 2015 by Lord Duckhunter

[CB Fry]

And by that you mean Cameron would shout loudly and make jokes and that would be enough in your view to believe he tore him a new one. Whereas in fact Corbyn would wait for the Cameron nonsense and hysteria to settle down and then destroy him with facts and logic in a calm, humorous and succinct manner.

 

Can't wait to see Cameron finally having someone capable of embarrassing him in PMQs. #torieslol

You have no idea how Corbyn will perform at PMQs as he has never once stood at the front bench for anything in thirty odd years in the house.

 

Let's see how calm he is defending the entire party and all policies he has accountabily for. This is is somewhat different to making the odd speech to heartland activists and cherry picking pet topics to pontificate on from the back benches from a cosy position of never being troubled to actually do anything.

[CB Fry]

The difference between the election of IDS & Corbyn is that IDS got enough legitimate mp votes to go forward to the party membership . Corbyn didn't , but for some bizarre reason he was " lent " votes . What bunch of ****ing half wits decided that was a good idea?

 

The reason labour people didn't sign up to vote in IDS wasn't because they're principled and would do such a thing , it was probably because the Tories being slightly more competent , didn't let any tom , **** or Harry pay £3 to " join". Another great idea from the team wanting to run the country , I wouldn't let them run a bath , let alone the country .

 

What makes me laugh is for all the pleas from the labour Establishment for all the horror and pain they're going through , it's all their own fault . Burnham, Kendall & Cooper should be the contest , nobody in the real world would not vote labour in 2020 because Corbyn wasn't on the ballot 5 years earlier, but plenty will if he's leader. It's the political version of shooting yourself in the foot, then reloading and shooting the other foot .

Some similarities though. MPs seem to pick the candidate for who/what he wasn't rather than what he was.

 

And like IDS, our Jeremy will be lucky to get through two party conference seasons without being booted out.

[CB Fry]

https://medium.com/@Labour_Pains/13-reasons-not-to-vote-for-jeremy-corbyn-as-leader-of-the-labour-party-11d5656cac88

 

This is a great summary of why not to vote Jeremy.

 

Obviously this guy getting a bit of grief on twitter from assorted Jezabel dinlows demanding he SHOW SOME EVIDENCE THAT CORBYN CAN'T WIN IN NUNEATON!!!

[trousers]

https://medium.com/@Labour_Pains/13-reasons-not-to-vote-for-jeremy-corbyn-as-leader-of-the-labour-party-11d5656cac88

 

This is a great summary of why not to vote Jeremy.

 

Ahem.... http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2235763

 

[CB Fry]

Ahem.... http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2235763

 

Tory.

[trousers]

Tory.

 

[Saintandy666]

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/2015guide/labourtargets/

 

Pick 100 seats everyone off this list. That's what Corbyn needs to do to win, whilst defending Tory-Labour English marginals. We can assume the SNP won't collapse. I look forward to Corbyn's credible and electable plea to the people of Kensington.

[Batman]

 

Image plays a part these days (like it or not)...he best get ready for severe scrutiny (which he has never ever had) and pictures of him smiling, chatting to some seriously dodgy people will be online for the average voter to see.

He is already having to explain himself about supporting/giving money to a holocaust denier...this is just the start

 

.

after fiercely denying it earlier on on when quizzed on the radio, Corbyn has now admitted to hosting a radical muslin in the commons..who was quoted in saying that every british and american soldier that dies, represents a victory.

 

Jezza claimed he had never heard of this person before. But admitted he was wrong a few hours later after it came out that the pair 'sympathise' with each others politics.

[aintforever]

after fiercely denying it earlier on on when quizzed on the radio, Corbyn has now admitted to hosting a radical muslin in the commons..who was quoted in saying that every british and american soldier that dies, represents a victory.

 

Jezza claimed he had never heard of this person before. But admitted he was wrong a few hours later after it came out that the pair 'sympathise' with each others politics.

 

Oh fo ****s sake, he talked to a radical Muslim, big deal. Hes obviously got the intelligence to know that the Palestinian issue cannot be resolved unless both sides talk to each other.

 

You have to be thick as **** to think he's a racist for just talking to someone.

[Hockey_saint]

Oh fo ****s sake, he talked to a radical Muslim, big deal. Hes obviously got the intelligence to know that the Palestinian issue cannot be resolved unless both sides talk to each other.

 

You have to be thick as **** to think he's a racist for just talking to someone.

 

And someone said the right don't control the media...Although the American writer, Bill Bryson, a former fleet street reporter himself, makes this abundantly clear in several of his books but the problem is, people are now more prone to believe this nonsense.

 

For example, turn on channel 4 or 5, or even 1 and see: saints and scrounger, benefit street, benefits Britain, Jeremy Kyle, Immigration street...to name but a few, the media is awash with this right wing nonsense and the public are spoon fed to believe everyone on the dole or disabled, or poor is a scrounger out to steal their tax money and that they've clearly not done a day's work in their lives....oh and that immigrants are coming to rape out wives, take from our kids mouths, ruin the NHS and steal benefits.

 

Joe public now buys this by the barrel load, why should anyone on here be any different?