CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 Although a rank outsider at the start of the 'race' to be the new Labour leader, the latest YouGov poll gives Jeremy Corbyn MP a significant 17pt lead in this campaign. So he is obviously very popular among the Labour Party membership and with trade unionists then. I for one however can't see the wider electorate voting for a politician as 'old school' leftist as Corbyn undoutably is to be their Prime Minister. UK elections are now won from somewhere near the middle ground of politics are they not? Perhaps at least two of the more centrist candidates will drop out and a successful 'Stop Corbyn' coalition might still prevail - indeed it is in the national interest that this happens I think. But should Corbyn eventually become Labour Leader, coupled with rise of the SNP in Scotland and the coming constituency boundary redrawing (thought to favour the Conservatives), could this all mark the start of the Labour Party declining into long-term political irrelevance? The Tories survived Michael Howard, Labour (eventually) recovered from Michael Foot's disastrous leadership. But these are dangerous times for not only the Labour Party but for the health of democracy in these islands because it seems to me that this nation will need a real choice at the 2020 election - not a forgone conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooney Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 They will be in the wilderness forever if they elect M Corbyn.Yvette Cooper seems to be the only one with the ability to head it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 The country simply will not elect him as leader. some fairly old duffer, regardless of his views Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 Bit unfair on Michael Howard saying the Tories " survived" him. He was brought in as a replacement for IDS and to steady the ship. Nobody really thought he could win against Blair and he fought an OK election. The thing he did do was ensure there wasn't the meltdown labour is in after a defeat. He stayed on as leader and he also promoted the people who would feature prominently in the subsequent leadership election. Allowing them to show their credentials and ensure a pretty smooth handover to Call me Dave. He acted with dignity and fortitude after his defeat and the Tories owe him a great deal. As for Corbyn , he's clearly as raving leftie loon, but he's an honest leftie loon. He's clearly in tune with a vast number of labour members and trade unionists . The party rules were clearly designed to keep extreme views off the ballot paper by putting a threshold on MPs nominations . The people who messed up aren't the members who will vote for him, but the idiots that didn't want him , yet " lent" him their vote to get on the ballot. A particularly uninspiring choice awaits the Brothers , particularly when it looks like Tom Watson looks like he'all win the deputy . Corbyn & Watson really is a Tory dream ticket, they may even get Diane Flabert in the shadow cabinet as well. Kendall's too sensible , Burnhams professional Northerner act act is wearing thin, so it looks like only Mrs Balls can save them from ridicule. If Corbyn does it , it'll be funny as ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st alex Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 Labour at the moment seem to a more mild version of the Tory party, I think if they're to offer any alternative to the tory party then they did to take a different stance and be clear about what it is they represent. They are supposed to a left leaning party. I like Corbyn, I think a bit like Farage he speaks his mind and doesn't come across as another Eton ****** (I've no idea where he was educated, mind) but he comes across to me as far more affable than the usual politician. He seems to have opinions and doesn't just dictate party policy all the time. By losing sight of their principals in the last election labour did awfully. I think with Corbyn they might have chance of gaining a lot of votes from the greens, lib dems, snp and abstainers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 People whinge about career politicians (of all shades) and then moan about a conviction politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 Although a rank outsider at the start of the 'race' to be the new Labour leader, the latest YouGov poll gives Jeremy Corbyn MP a significant 17pt lead in this campaign. So he is obviously very popular among the Labour Party membership and with trade unionists then. I for one however can't see the wider electorate voting for a politician as 'old school' leftist as Corbyn undoutably is to be their Prime Minister. UK elections are now won from somewhere near the middle ground of politics are they not? Perhaps at least two of the more centrist candidates will drop out and a successful 'Stop Corbyn' coalition might still prevail - indeed it is in the national interest that this happens I think. But should Corbyn eventually become Labour Leader, coupled with rise of the SNP in Scotland and the coming constituency boundary redrawing (thought to favour the Conservatives), could this all mark the start of the Labour Party declining into long-term political irrelevance? The Tories survived Michael Howard, Labour (eventually) recovered from Michael Foot's disastrous leadership. But these are dangerous times for not only the Labour Party but for the health of democracy in these islands because it seems to me that this nation will need a real choice at the 2020 election - not a forgone conclusion. Totally agree and I voted Tory and there was not alot to choose between two Tory party's ,or waste your vote for a Looney protest party like ukip for the disaffected voters .we have had 35 years of the same policy's and no one thinking about solving problems like start building homes ,raising productivity as a nation and rewarding the many and not the few who line there pockets and do not earn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 The death of the Labour Party started in earnest with Blair and "New" Labour. After the re-branding they have no where else to go. Going back to their roots will scare off Middle England and the Tories seem to have the middle ground sown up. Labour could well go the way of the LibDems. Not good for politics and not good for the country. The new Labour leader has a tough job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 People whinge about career politicians (of all shades) and then moan about a conviction politician. Quite - I dont agree with a lot of his views but I can respect him for being true to his convictions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 I see Blair is warning Labour about lurching to the left. No wonder people confused him with the Tories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 People whinge about career politicians (of all shades) and then moan about a conviction politician. Quite. I find it concerning that all the talk coming from members of the labour party interviewed on the radio/tv seems to be about selecting the leader who will win/what values the party needs to portray in order to win the next election. Whatever happened to having standing for something than trying to win by promoting your principles? Exactly the same would be happening with the conservatives had they lost the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 The only way to make any difference is to be in power - that's the bottom line. A lurch further to the left would be a complete disaster regardless of who is leader. Without middle England you cannot win an election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 22 July, 2015 Author Share Posted 22 July, 2015 Quite. I find it concerning that all the talk coming from members of the labour party interviewed on the radio/tv seems to be about selecting the leader who will win/what values the party needs to portray in order to win the next election. Whatever happened to having standing for something than trying to win by promoting your principles? If it chooses to Labour can indeed 'stand on its principles' and no doubt congratulate itself from now until kingdom come on the unadulterated purity of its leftist ideology. I put it to you that all this 'standing' will be done from the opposition benches ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 I have heard that a large number of Conservatives who work in the City have joined the Labour party for £3, in order to vote for Jeremy Corbyn. I can't wait to see that old dinosaur at PM's question time spouting his Marxist b0ll0x. He'll be eaten alive. £3? It's worth it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 Standing on a platform of 'socialist principles' didn't do the SNP any harm. Why wouldn't Labour doing the same on a UK wide basis stoke up the same levels of enthusiasm amongst the 'disaffected masses'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 Standing on a platform of 'socialist principles' didn't do the SNP any harm. Why wouldn't Labour doing the same on a UK wide basis stoke up the same levels of enthusiasm amongst the 'disaffected masses'? Mainly because clueless Jocks are in the minority in the UK.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 I have heard that a large number of Conservatives who work in the City have joined the Labour party for £3, in order to vote for Jeremy Corbyn. I would have thought the election would be open to those who were members prior to Miliband resigning to prevent exactly this sort of scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 I would have thought the election would be open to those who were members prior to Miliband resigning to prevent exactly this sort of scenario? You'd have thought so, wouldn't you, Steve? As a member, can I vote in the leadership election? You can vote as long as you are a fully paid up member by noon on 12th August 2015. You can find out more about voting in the leadership election by heading to http://www.labour.org.uk/blog/entry/how-to-vote-for-our-next-leader-and-deputy-leader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 They will be in the wilderness forever if they elect M Corbyn.Yvette Cooper seems to be the only one with the ability to head it up. She's tainted by the whiff of Balls though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 I just joined as a supporter, with full rights to vote in the leadership election and look forward to casting my vote for Jeremy Corbyn. Best £3 I've spent this year (apart from that cheap hooker, but I'm unlikely to get a nasty rash joining Labour) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 The only way to make any difference is to be in power - that's the bottom line. A lurch further to the left would be a complete disaster regardless of who is leader. Without middle England you cannot win an election. Unfortunately this is the situation - there will be a void opening up in the centre as the Tories move further to the right to keep the 1922'ers onside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 I have heard that a large number of Conservatives who work in the City have joined the Labour party for £3, in order to vote for Jeremy Corbyn. I can't wait to see that old dinosaur at PM's question time spouting his Marxist b0ll0x. He'll be eaten alive. £3? It's worth it.... As there are over 230,000 party members, it' going to take more than a few casino capitalists to swing the vote. Corbyn will probably win, and will do so without their assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 As there are over 230,000 party members, it' going to take more than a few casino capitalists to swing the vote. Corbyn will probably win, and will do so without their assistance. I just want to do my bit. Why should the Unions have all the fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 You'd have thought so, wouldn't you, Steve? ****s sake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 What a way to run a leadership election . Lend a bloke votes to get him in the ballot and then allow anyone to pay a few quid and vote . I wouldn't trust this lot to run a bath , let alone a country . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 I just want to do my bit. Why should the Unions have all the fun? At least the result will be more 'proportional' than the GE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 Labour at the moment seem to a more mild version of the Tory party, I think if they're to offer any alternative to the tory party then they did to take a different stance and be clear about what it is they represent. They are supposed to a left leaning party. I like Corbyn, I think a bit like Farage he speaks his mind and doesn't come across as another Eton ****** (I've no idea where he was educated, mind) but he comes across to me as far more affable than the usual politician. He seems to have opinions and doesn't just dictate party policy all the time. By losing sight of their principals in the last election labour did awfully. I think with Corbyn they might have chance of gaining a lot of votes from the greens, lib dems, snp and abstainers. the labour party needs who has someone with real character and passion to lead, like the snp leaders do and have who can give a vision of alternatives view unlike the managerial types labour have now. i don,t think Corbyn is the answer but at least he gives intelligent answers to questions and i believe is honest in his views . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 At least the result will be more 'proportional' than the GE. Yeah, that's right. Under PR Labour would have still lost the 2015 election, the Tories would have still won and UKIP would have gained 83 seats. Still, with Jezza in charge of Labour, I can see the Tories confidently working on a ten year plan. Should have reigned in the public sector spending, benefit handouts and crushed the unions, comfortably, by then.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 What a way to run a leadership election . Lend a bloke votes to get him in the ballot and then allow anyone to pay a few quid and vote . I wouldn't trust this lot to run a bath , let alone a country . i totally agree a bit like ukip leadership election :lol:when adolph farage resigns his leadership for a week,before he decides to lead the loonies again with out a vote for re election Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 Yeah, that's right. Under PR Labour would have still lost the 2015 election, the Tories would have still won and UKIP would have gained 83 seats. Still, with Jezza in charge of Labour, I can see the Tories confidently working on a ten year plan. Should have reigned in the public sector spending, benefit handouts and crushed the unions, comfortably, by then.... The country will be a utopia, as long as you don't live in an inner city, aren't disabled or on a state pension, and don't need the NHS or social care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 The country will be a utopia, as long as you don't live in an inner city, aren't disabled or on a state pension, and don't need the NHS or social care. Don't get me start on disability benefits. I say tax them. The majority of people claiming Disability Living Allowance are the middle classes, with incomes placing them in the top half of those in the UK. As far as the rest of your old chestnuts, I hardly think it was a socialist utopia when Gordon Brown was making every one of us worse off. What is it like being trapped in a socialist dogma, unable to better yourself, but forced to blame everyone else, I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 The country will be a utopia, as long as you don't live in an inner city, aren't disabled or on a state pension, and don't need the NHS or social care. The state pension is subject to a triple lock . Therefore the better and more productive the economy the better off pensioners will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 https://twitter.com/hashtag/toriesforcorbyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 Jezbollah...another LOL: https://twitter.com/hashtag/JezBollah?src=hash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecuk268 Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 Don't get me start on disability benefits. I say tax them. The majority of people claiming Disability Living Allowance are the middle classes, with incomes placing them in the top half of those in the UK. I'd ber interested to see the figures that back up your statement as, according to the OPCS, 50% of those claiming DLA are living below the poverty line (or 60% for families with children). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 What is it like being trapped in a socialist dogma, unable to better yourself, but forced to blame everyone else, I wonder? Maybe, as a new member of the Labour Party, you could go to one of JC's campaign meetings and ask him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 (edited) I'd ber interested to see the figures that back up your statement as, according to the OPCS, 50% of those claiming DLA are living below the poverty line (or 60% for families with children). The relevant graphs are below http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBa3o6mUcAEwc7B.jpg http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBa4OkzUUAIWyPh.jpg And are taken from this publication: http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7530 Edited 22 July, 2015 by Guided Missile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twiggy Posted 22 July, 2015 Share Posted 22 July, 2015 I like him. He's moving the Labour Party back to the left where it should be and really going against the Tories. Frankly his no vote in the welfare cuts was a good start, couldn't believe the number of abstained voters who are apparently appalled and opposed to these cuts. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 23 July, 2015 Share Posted 23 July, 2015 I like him. He's moving the Labour Party back to the left where it should be and really going against the Tories. Frankly his no vote in the welfare cuts was a good start, couldn't believe the number of abstained voters who are apparently appalled and opposed to these cuts. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This forum has turned so blue nose it's quite sickening. What a subjective title. I totally agree Twiggy. I like how he's targetted the under 30's too, most of whom are getting slaughtered by this ideological government. Its a different world from the days of Michael Foot and we need to prove that we're not all money-hungry Thatcherite capitalists and that some of us care for those struggling to get by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 23 July, 2015 Share Posted 23 July, 2015 We will have to see about this poll, and what actually happens going forward. Some have already looked into the deeper numbers of this poll and notice some odd points in the demographic picked, which shouldn't be unexpected given how hard it is to pick for this kind of poll. Corbyn may do alright in Labour heartlands I guess, but will lose the kind of seats in England they need to win to get back into government. At present though, something does need to change as they simply will not be in again as long as Scotland remains SNP and they struggle in the South. (and as long the Tories dominate the South West at the expense of the Lib Dems). I have to say after observing the hustings, I do admire Kendall somewhat. She is talking her mind against the grain to some degree and with some substance. Burnham is not much except a northern accent. I guess Cooper is alright. But Corbyn had very little substance and very little ideas. I can see why what he is saying is very populist and nice to hear, but I'm not sure he is actually saying that much at all when you think about it. Plus the small problem that the parliamentary party don't seem to want to play ball if he gets elected. I do wonder whether we are going to have another split like in the 80s. On the welfare abstention. Such weakness and disarray from Labour, after running an election against welfare cuts and bashing the last government so much on welfare. In particular the disdain they reserved for the liberals who blocked the very items coming through now, and voted against them this week as well. These are policies which are much worse than anything to come from the coaliton, but Labour are happy to do nothing. What exactly are the Labour party for if not to oppose this kind of thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeySFC Posted 23 July, 2015 Share Posted 23 July, 2015 (edited) Labour going back to the left can only be a good thing, the Blairism of the late 90s and early 00s just has to end, the party needs a new direction that meaningfully differentiates them from the Tories and Jeremy Corbyn could be a great person to lead them in this direction, but I don't know an awful lot about him to be truly honest. IF they can truly get back to being a left-wing socialist party for working class people first and foremost, and IF Jeremy Corbyn has the same down-to-earth persona as someone like Farage (as much as I hate the c*nt) then they may get somewhere. Edited 23 July, 2015 by BlakeySFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 23 July, 2015 Share Posted 23 July, 2015 On the welfare abstention. Such weakness and disarray from Labour, after running an election against welfare cuts and bashing the last government so much on welfare. In particular the disdain they reserved for the liberals who blocked the very items coming through now, and voted against them this week as well. These are policies which are much worse than anything to come from the coaliton, but Labour are happy to do nothing. What exactly are the Labour party for if not to oppose this kind of thing? http://andrewgwynne.co.uk/2015/07/21/gwynne-blog-debunking-the-myths-on-commons-procedure-and-the-welfare-bill/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 23 July, 2015 Author Share Posted 23 July, 2015 Labour going back to the left can only be a good thing, the Blairism of the late 90s and early 00s just has to end, the party needs a new direction that meaningfully differentiates them from the Tories and Jeremy Corbyn could be a great person to lead them in this direction, but I don't know an awful lot about him to be truly honest. IF they can truly get back to being a left-wing socialist party for working class people first and foremost, and IF Jeremy Corbyn has the same down-to-earth persona as someone like Farage (as much as I hate the c*nt) then they may get somewhere. I could hardly disagree more with the above. Surely the ''somewhere'' Jeremy Corbyn would take the Labour Party would be back to the opposition benches. Love him or hate him, but Tony Blair won a unprecedented 3 General Elections because he (quite brilliantly) steered the Labour Party away from its Socialist roots and the outdated 'class warfare' ideology of the hard left, and instead took it towards the so called 'centre ground' of British politics where our elections are won and lost. Before Blair Labour had NEVER won two successive elections. Between 1951 and Blair's remarkable landslide 'New Labour' victory in 1997, the record shows that the Conservative Party had been in power for 35 out of those 46 years. This fact led many 20th Century political theorists to conclude that the Tory Party had in effect become what was refereed to as the 'Natural Party of Government' here in the UK. That was true back then, it is even more true today I think. The core problem for Labour - the problem that Tony Blair understood so well - is that it is historically a 'Working Class' party in what is an increasingly 'Middle Class' nation. Middle Class people are by nature more inclined toward conservative attitudes because they - unlike poorer segments of society - have something to lose of course. So if Labour is still really interested in regaining power one day (rather than becoming the leftist debating society some seem to favour) then it has again to give that aspirational Middle Class a strong reason to vote for it, or they will surely lose the next election even more heavily than they lost the last one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 23 July, 2015 Share Posted 23 July, 2015 Labour going back to the left can only be a good thing, the Blairism of the late 90s and early 00s just has to end, the party needs a new direction that meaningfully differentiates them from the Tories and Jeremy Corbyn could be a great person to lead them in this direction, but I don't know an awful lot about him to be truly honest. IF they can truly get back to being a left-wing socialist party for working class people first and foremost, and IF Jeremy Corbyn has the same down-to-earth persona as someone like Farage (as much as I hate the c*nt) then they may get somewhere. They'll get somewhere else all right. A generation in increasingly irrelevant opposition. A Corbyn led Labour would get annihilated beyond belief by a Boris led Tory party. They'd get annihilated by a IDS-led Tory party to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 23 July, 2015 Share Posted 23 July, 2015 Its a different world from the days of Michael Foot and we need to prove that we're not all money-hungry Thatcherite capitalists and that some of us care for those struggling to get by. The trouble is, under Labour there would be no money to help those struggling to get by. I think you lefties all need to go to Greece and see how a real Socialist government can ruin a country. I don't see the poor migrants, those in real need fighting to stay in Calais. They're prepared to swim the Channel to live in this "Thatcherite/Blairite" stronghold and leave the striking dock workers in France behind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 23 July, 2015 Share Posted 23 July, 2015 Labour going back to the left can only be a good thing, the Blairism of the late 90s and early 00s just has to end, the party needs a new direction that meaningfully differentiates them from the Tories and Jeremy Corbyn could be a great person to lead them in this direction, but I don't know an awful lot about him to be truly honest. IF they can truly get back to being a left-wing socialist party for working class people first and foremost, and IF Jeremy Corbyn has the same down-to-earth persona as someone like Farage (as much as I hate the c*nt) then they may get somewhere. Dear god!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 23 July, 2015 Share Posted 23 July, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 23 July, 2015 Share Posted 23 July, 2015 (edited) Dear god!!! Only under the Tories - God would be free under Labour. Edited 23 July, 2015 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 23 July, 2015 Share Posted 23 July, 2015 My grandparents were very poor and lived on the breadline but under previous labour governments Wilson / Callaghan they were far worse off . The labour welfare state policies at the time did not help them. They had worked hard all there lives but revived little help apart from family and friends. Maybe under Blair and brown they might have been better off . We will never know as they both died before blair came to power But under old old labour regime . They got little or no support . Instead they just got on with their life's the best they could . They were proud people when they were alive Corbyn - no thank you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 23 July, 2015 Share Posted 23 July, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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