EU referendum

[buctootim]

Two more interesting quotes , one from Jean Monnett a founding father of the EU;

 

"Europe's nations should be guided towards the super state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."

 

Can you find the quote and where he said it? Seems to me as though its made up. Who'd have thought?

 

 

"The quote is often misascribed to Jean Monnet — in fact it is a paraphrase of a characterization of Monnet's intentions by British Conservative Adrian Hilton."

http://europa.hs-pforzheim.de/jeanmonnet_biography.html

 

https://eufundedproeutroll.wordpress.com/2014/05/28/european-union-what-did-monnet-say-about-europes-nations-and-the-superstate/

Edited 30 March, 2016 by buctootim

[moonraker]

Tough nothing to do with EU that dastardly European Court of Human rights has rejected the appeal by th family of Jean Charles De Menzies. What were they thinking backing the U K government!

[hypochondriac]

I’m not arguing, that the difficulty of leaving is the defining factor for staying. My point is Brexit have failed to address any direct questions about, short medium or long term outcomes. While they somewhat disingenuously brand the stay campaign as project fear, the Brexit campaign twin approach is ‘it will be better out, just trust us’ and ‘we can do better on our own than without a load of meddling eurocrats’ there is no real context and little imperial evidence to justify either claim. The additional short term (5 0- 10 years) pain is just another issue Brexit are burying their heads in the sand over.

 

The answer is that nobody knows either way to much of it. Negotiations at some point in the future if we voted for brexit would be difficult to predict. It then comes down to opinions and my view is that we will have a strong hand in any negotiations. For me it's the fundamental issue regarding loss of sovereignty which swings it - it's outrageous that unelected officials can overrule or impose laws on us. We have previously been an example to others about how to run a democracy and the system we have now is too difficult to stomach. It's also totally illogical that we cannot predict with any accuracy how many people will be coming into the country every year. It makes it impossible to plan things like the NHS without that basic info.

 

I know you will most likely dismiss these things but an awful lot of people feel the same way.

[moonraker]

The answer is that nobody knows either way to much of it. Negotiations at some point in the future if we voted for brexit would be difficult to predict. It then comes down to opinions and my view is that we will have a strong hand in any negotiations. For me it's the fundamental issue regarding loss of sovereignty which swings it - it's outrageous that unelected officials can overrule or impose laws on us. We have previously been an example to others about how to run a democracy and the system we have now is too difficult to stomach. It's also totally illogical that we cannot predict with any accuracy how many people will be coming into the country every year. It makes it impossible to plan things like the NHS without that basic info.

 

I know you will most likely dismiss these things but an awful lot of people feel the same way.

 

I don't dismiss any of your concerns and I do not unquestionably back the EU but I do believe it is the best option for our future.

[Wade Garrett]

The answer is that nobody knows either way to much of it. Negotiations at some point in the future if we voted for brexit would be difficult to predict. It then comes down to opinions and my view is that we will have a strong hand in any negotiations. For me it's the fundamental issue regarding loss of sovereignty which swings it - it's outrageous that unelected officials can overrule or impose laws on us. We have previously been an example to others about how to run a democracy and the system we have now is too difficult to stomach. It's also totally illogical that we cannot predict with any accuracy how many people will be coming into the country every year. It makes it impossible to plan things like the NHS without that basic info.

 

I know you will most likely dismiss these things but an awful lot of people feel the same way.

 

Great post.

[Nolan]

Yep, just clarifying it now on LBC.

It is against EU rules to subsidise a particular industry as it would be to the detriment of a partner in the EU

Both Belgium and Italy have subsidised their steel industries. Currently the EU are demanding the money gets repaid.

 

The US has imposed a 266% tariff on imports of some steel imports from China.

 

India has set their own floor on import prices of steel to protect their industry.

 

The EU are watching their member states steel industry go to the walls because they can not make a decision.

 

I am confused went their is even an argument to stay in this ludicrous indecisive union.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[moonraker]

Both Belgium and Italy have subsidised their steel industries. Currently the EU are demanding the money gets repaid.

 

The US has imposed a 266% tariff on imports of some steel imports from China.

 

India has set their own floor on import prices of steel to protect their industry.

 

The EU are watching their member states steel industry go to the walls because they can not make a decision.

 

I am confused went their is even an argument to stay in this ludicrous indecisive union.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

The U.K. Stopped the EU imposing high tariffs on th chinese steel.

[aintforever]

The U.K. Stopped the EU imposing high tariffs on th chinese steel.

 

Maybe the situation has changed and the UK wants to change their policy?

 

Either way, the democratically elected UK government should decide not a bunch of foreigners.

Edited 31 March, 2016 by aintforever

[Nolan]

The U.K. Stopped the EU imposing high tariffs on th chinese steel.

I believe the UK wants to set a new tariff that is in accord with the lesser dumping rule while others in the the EU want to set a tariff that is outside of the lesser dumping rule. Hence no agreement.

 

Setting tarriffs by comittee doesn't work.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[hypochondriac]

I don't dismiss any of your concerns and I do not unquestionably back the EU but I do believe it is the best option for our future.

 

And that's fine but then you can't really have a go at the people who share the genuine concerns outlined in my post or continually ask what it's going to look like when we have left. Giving away our sovereignty in the manner we have done is not a price worth paying in my opinion.

[moonraker]

I believe the UK wants to set a new tariff that is in accord with the lesser dumping rule while others in the the EU want to set a tariff that is outside of the lesser dumping rule. Hence no agreement.

 

Setting tarriffs by comittee doesn't work.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

The UK may now want to set a new Tariff but the fact remains the UK Government not the EU has failed to react to the dumping of Chinese steel in the best interest of the UK steel industry. Putting aside the details of the Steel Industry this is a prime example of where our own Government had sufficient sovereignty to do something and abjectly failed to act. Embedded in Tory ideology is the principle that Government should not involve itself in any way with direct support to an individual industry, they struggle to see past this.

Your comment about setting tariffs by committee is naïve at best, all Government is by committee, while the actual label may change Cabinet, Council, Parliament are all in effect other terms for committees. You use the term committee because in the popular perception it has negative connotations. If democracy is nothing else it is Government by committee.

[Nolan]

The UK may now want to set a new Tariff but the fact remains the UK Government not the EU has failed to react to the dumping of Chinese steel in the best interest of the UK steel industry. Putting aside the details of the Steel Industry this is a prime example of where our own Government had sufficient sovereignty to do something and abjectly failed to act. Embedded in Tory ideology is the principle that Government should not involve itself in any way with direct support to an individual industry, they struggle to see past this.

Your comment about setting tariffs by committee is naïve at best, all Government is by committee, while the actual label may change Cabinet, Council, Parliament are all in effect other terms for committees. You use the term committee because in the popular perception it has negative connotations. If democracy is nothing else it is Government by committee.

 

Don't be a pedant. Obviously by committee, means having to do what's best for multiple countries not just one.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[moonraker]

Don't be a pedant. Obviously by committee, means having to do what's best for multiple countries not just one.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

And the problem with that is? It was not pedantic, just pointing out that your inference about commitees not working is wrong. The whole problem with the serial moaners on here is that they are incapable of thinking beyond their narrow self interest, the majority of their comments are just reactionary.

[Nolan]

I think that wanting the best for the UK, all 65 odd million of us, is not narrow self interest.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[moonraker]

I think that wanting the best for the UK, all 65 odd million of us, is not narrow self interest.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

At last something I can agree with, just I do not belive leaving the imperfect EU is the best way to achieve that in our Globalised world.

[hypochondriac]

And the problem with that is? It was not pedantic, just pointing out that your inference about commitees not working is wrong. The whole problem with the serial moaners on here is that they are incapable of thinking beyond their narrow self interest, the majority of their comments are just reactionary.

 

That's an incredibly patronising statement and certainly won't be persuading anyone who has real concerns about the EU if they are dismissed in this manner. I've tried to engage you sensibly regarding this topic but comments like that make me not want to bother.

[moonraker]

That's an incredibly patronising statement and certainly won't be persuading anyone who has real concerns about the EU if they are dismissed in this manner. I've tried to engage you sensibly regarding this topic but comments like that make me not want to bother.

 

I apologise, I was being somewhat reactionary. In my defence, I am somewhat frustrated with the inability of many of those who post simplistic statements about complex issues and then try to defend themselves with hackneyed assertions about what has or is actually happening. As I have repeatedly stated I recognise the failings of the EU but firmly believe that it is our best option. It is those who do not debate in a grown up manner, as you do, that irritates and leads to what you reasonably call patronising responses.

[Nolan]

Well, posting simplistically. I firmly believe negotiating deals in a bloc with Greece and Spain is akin to asking Real Madrid & barca to negotiate new TV deals with the remainder of La Liga rather than negotiate deals based on their own strengths.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[moonraker]

Well, posting simplistically. I firmly believe negotiating deals in a bloc with Greece and Spain is akin to asking Real Madrid & barca to negotiate new TV deals with the remainder of La Liga rather than negotiate deals based on their own strengths.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

Or akin to the Premier League (the most successful league by a range of measures) who negotiate collectively. Or would you prefer the big 4/5 clubs ignore the rest of the clubs and just look after themselves? It is gnerally understood there is greater strength in numbers even when some of that number are individually obvioulsy not as strong as others.

Edited 31 March, 2016 by moonraker

[Batman]

what a little englander/ukipper

 

[hypochondriac]

I apologise, I was being somewhat reactionary. In my defence, I am somewhat frustrated with the inability of many of those who post simplistic statements about complex issues and then try to defend themselves with hackneyed assertions about what has or is actually happening. As I have repeatedly stated I recognise the failings of the EU but firmly believe that it is our best option. It is those who do not debate in a grown up manner, as you do, that irritates and leads to what you reasonably call patronising responses.

 

Fair enough. Thanks for the apology.

[Batman]

[van Hanegem]

I'm just a simple Dutchman so I hope that the Brexit will happen as it could be the first step of the downfall of this monster called EU. I'm all for Europe but against a union in its current structure with too much political power and too many politicians who are making a mess of it. Besides, there are too many differences between east, south and northern european countries so it won't ever work out, there's simply not enough support from too many citizens. So, before we have to pay taxes directly to Brussels, let's kill this monster... The costs of a breakaway will probably be immense (especially for countries with the Euro as a currency) but at least each country will have the possibility to take measures to deal with them instead of following orders from Brussels which lead to nowhere.

[buctootim]

I'm just a simple Dutchman so I hope that the Brexit will happen as it could be the first step of the downfall of this monster called EU. I'm all for Europe but against a union in its current structure with too much political power and too many politicians who are making a mess of it. Besides, there are too many differences between east, south and northern european countries so it won't ever work out, there's simply not enough support from too many citizens. So, before we have to pay taxes directly to Brussels, let's kill this monster... The costs of a breakaway will probably be immense (especially for countries with the Euro as a currency) but at least each country will have the possibility to take measures to deal with them instead of following orders from Brussels which lead to nowhere.

 

 

I wish we had never moved away from the EU as it was about 1985 - a collection of countries with broadly similar economies and standards of living and not too many supra-national laws.

[Sour Mash]

I'm just a simple Dutchman so I hope that the Brexit will happen as it could be the first step of the downfall of this monster called EU. I'm all for Europe but against a union in its current structure with too much political power and too many politicians who are making a mess of it. Besides, there are too many differences between east, south and northern european countries so it won't ever work out, there's simply not enough support from too many citizens. So, before we have to pay taxes directly to Brussels, let's kill this monster... The costs of a breakaway will probably be immense (especially for countries with the Euro as a currency) but at least each country will have the possibility to take measures to deal with them instead of following orders from Brussels which lead to nowhere.

Spot on.

 

Be careful though, you'll be called a 'Little Englander' and 'Ukipper' by the loyal EU fans on here.

[van Hanegem]

I wish we had never moved away from the EU as it was about 1985 - a collection of countries with broadly similar economies and standards of living and not too many supra-national laws.

 

Me too, a trade union suits me just fine. You should be glad that England doesn't participate in the Euro currency, the ECB is printing money in a ridiculous way which results in such a low interest that the Dutch pensionsystem (one of the best in the world) could collapse. It's a farce... Next week there is a referendum in Holland about the treaty the EU has planned with the Ukraine. It's believed that many Dutch will vote against it just because they're sick of the EU and it's incompetence. I hope there will be a massive "no" but I reckon it won't happen as I don't get the impression that many people care or know what's at stake.

[van Hanegem]

Spot on.

 

Be careful though, you'll be called a 'Little Englander' and 'Ukipper' by the loyal EU fans on here.

 

Oh, we have the same people over here. They usually look away when they're confronted with all the negative sh*t caused by the EU. Just like they do when you criticise on the negative impact of the islam in Western Europe. I couldn't care less...

[moonraker]

I'm just a simple Dutchman so I hope that the Brexit will happen as it could be the first step of the downfall of this monster called EU. I'm all for Europe but against a union in its current structure with too much political power and too many politicians who are making a mess of it. Besides, there are too many differences between east, south and northern european countries so it won't ever work out, there's simply not enough support from too many citizens. So, before we have to pay taxes directly to Brussels, let's kill this monster... The costs of a breakaway will probably be immense (especially for countries with the Euro as a currency) but at least each country will have the possibility to take measures to deal with them instead of following orders from Brussels which lead to nowhere.

 

van many thanks for your non partisan perspective. Whilst I have argued to remain in your points are well made and sadly only to true. I suppose what I really want to happen is a complete realignment of the EU power structures and a recognition, as you allude to, of the regional variations that present such huge challenges that the eurocrats seem incapable of even voicing let alone addressing. To me the risk of leaving and failing to gain at least an equitable deal for the UK still seems to great, and the fragmented and fundamentally ill considered leave campaign does not provide a level of mitigation I can buy into.

[Sour Mash]

Just like they do when you criticise on the negative impact of the islam in Western Europe. I couldn't care less...

Oh now you've done it

[van Hanegem]

You're welcome Moonraker. Breaking away from the EU is risky off course but so is staying on as the goal is to form a union which will have all the power and England and the Netherlands and so on are mere provinces obliged to be dictated by this new "empire". Did you know that the nazi's had a Plan B in case their "1000-year Reich" would not happen? Yup, the ultimate form of the EU is a lookalike of their Plan B... In order to succeed it's necessary that feelings of national identity and culture are diminished and step by step this is happening in Holland. The introduction of the Euro, the import of thousands and thousands of (economic) refugees and the implementation of European laws (it is said that up to 70% of the laws in Holland are coming from Brussels), it all seems part of a plan to slowly alter the unity among the Dutch into some European citizenship. You could argue this isn't such a bad thing but I believe that eventually things will get ugly as the standard of living is already going down the hill for a lot of people. Cuts on care for elderly, jobs taken over by eastern europeans who are much cheaper, the emergence of a parallel society combined with xenophobia against muslims who don't assimilate, it could all lead to an explosive situation and we all know what happened in the past...

 

I don't trust a Nigel Farrage or a Geert Wilders in Holland and I don't like the way they are are addressing the problems, I believe their popularity is just the result of failing politicians from the other parties. However, they are the only voice of the people who are fed up with the current situation and I do hope that their popularity will lead to a break up of the current EU (though I realise this is far from real).

 

Your remark about gaining an equitable deal for the UK sounds a bit awkward to me. Maybe I do not understand you in the right way as it comes across as a kind of bail out financed by other Europeans... Just like all those eastern European countries want to get in the EU because off the benefits they get but don't want the duties coming along with the membership. That's not the way it should work...

[van Hanegem]

Oh now you've done it

 

Uh oh, that's also a delicate issue on this forum? I'll look for it!

[Whitey Grandad]

And that's fine but then you can't really have a go at the people who share the genuine concerns outlined in my post or continually ask what it's going to look like when we have left. Giving away our sovereignty in the manner we have done is not a price worth paying in my opinion.

 

We pool our sovereignty, we haven't given it away.

[hypochondriac]

We pool our sovereignty, we haven't given it away.

 

You either have sovereignty or you don't. Watering sovereignty down means you no longer have it and is unacceptable to me.

[Sour Mash]

Uh oh, that's also a delicate issue on this forum? I'll look for it!

Have fun http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?55460-Paris-Massacre-WARNING-CONTAINS-DISTRESSING-IMAGES&p=2320929#post2320929

 

Basically, if you don't want more of a culture that brings us everything from terrorism to gender segregation, with little in return, you're considered a bigot

[van Hanegem]

Have fun http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?55460-Paris-Massacre-WARNING-CONTAINS-DISTRESSING-IMAGES&p=2320929#post2320929

 

Basically, if you don't want more of a culture that brings us everything from terrorism to gender segregation, with little in return, you're considered a bigot

 

I know what you mean, when you state that the American National Rifle Association is stupid by saying that it's not the gun which kills but the person who is holding it, they all agree. When you say that the islam (or any other backward religion for that matter) is the cause of all this bloodshed than you are a an intolerant fascist. How dare you compare a religion with a smoking gun? It's the idiots who abuse religion who are to blame!

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I know what you mean, when you state that the American National Rifle Association is stupid by saying that it's not the gun which kills but the person who is holding it, they all agree. When you say that the islam (or any other backward religion for that matter) is the cause of all this bloodshed than you are a an intolerant fascist. How dare you compare a religion with a smoking gun? It's the idiots who abuse religion who are to blame!

 

Well yes - what point are you attempting to make?

 

Your analogy between the gun crime issue and religion, while somewhat entertaining, is a false one I think. The core purpuse of a firearm (if we ignore their sporting potential) is to inflict bobily damage or at least intimidate. Religion on the other hand is less concerned with destruction and intimidation and more involved in reflecting a near universal Human desire to comprehend the world around us and answer the enternal questions that surround the future (if any) of the soul after death. So while a superficial analogy between both the misuse of guns and religious doctrine may be drawn this cannot be sustained.

 

http://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Faulty-Analogy.html

 

The old English idiom concerning the problem of comparing 'apples with oranges' also comes to mind here.

[van Hanegem]

Well yes - what point are you attempting to make?

 

Your analogy between the gun crime issue and religion, while somewhat entertaining, is a false one I think. The core purpuse of a firearm (if we ignore their sporting potential) is to inflict bobily damage or at least intimidate. Religion on the other hand is less concerned with destruction and intimidation and more involved in reflecting a near universal Human desire to comprehend the world around us and answer the enternal questions that surround the future (if any) of the soul after death. So while a superficial analogy between both the misuse of guns and religious doctrine may be drawn this cannot be sustained.

 

http://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Faulty-Analogy.html

 

The old English idiom concerning the problem of comparing 'apples with oranges' also comes to mind here.

 

Sometimes you have to compare apples with oranges to make people rethink their point of view so how about this: when you take away the gun no shot is fired. When you take away religion there's no need to slaugther non-believers... Does it make any sense to you?

[moonraker]

Sometimes you have to compare apples with oranges to make people rethink their point of view so how about this: when you take away the gun no shot is fired. When you take away religion there's no need to slaugther non-believers... Does it make any sense to you?

 

Yes, but one is eminently achievable, practicable and enlightened, take away or tightly control guns, the other is, well not even hypothetically possible, and why stop with Islam, I personally am not very keen on a number of religions; Satanism, Scientology, Jedism to name a few. So which of the 4200 documented religions would you eradicate? so rather than Apples and Ornages more akin to comparing apples and cocunuts, one is soft and easy to deal with, the other is tough and very hard to get into.

[buctootim]

Sometimes you have to compare apples with oranges to make people rethink their point of view so how about this: when you take away the gun no shot is fired. When you take away religion there's no need to slaugther non-believers... Does it make any sense to you?

 

You can make all kinds of arguments about past policy - including we should have never allowed in so many unskilled rural workers from one part of the world; we should have required integration instead of multiculturalism; we should have required language skills and we should have cut deals with Saudi Arabia until they stopped supporting the export of Wahhabism. But we didnt.

 

You can only deal with things as they are now. You either get on with trying to deal with the problem by integrating the Muslim population or you go down the route of demonising all Muslims in the hope you can swing public opinion behind repressive measures such as forced repatriation - with all that would entail.

 

Simply complaining about the situation and alienating moderate Muslims makes the situation worse, not better.

[van Hanegem]

Yes, but one is eminently achievable, practicable and enlightened, take away or tightly control guns, the other is, well not even hypothetically possible, and why stop with Islam, I personally am not very keen on a number of religions; Satanism, Scientology, Jedism to name a few. So which of the 4200 documented religions would you eradicate? so rather than Apples and Ornages more akin to comparing apples and cocunuts, one is soft and easy to deal with, the other is tough and very hard to get into.

 

In Holland we compare apples with pears, maybe you should too...

You're too serious about this comparison, off course you can't eradicate any religion. It would take a lot of guns to do that and they were taken away before...

[van Hanegem]

You can make all kinds of arguments about past policy - including we should have never allowed in so many unskilled rural workers from one part of the world; we should have required integration instead of multiculturalism; we should have required language skills and we should have cut deals with Saudi Arabia until they stopped supporting the export of Wahhabism. But we didnt.

 

You can only deal with things as they are now. You either get on with trying to deal with the problem by integrating the Muslim population or you go down the route of demonising all Muslims in the hope you can swing public opinion behind repressive measures such as forced repatriation - with all that would entail.

 

Simply complaining about the situation and alienating moderate Muslims makes the situation worse, not better.

 

In order to deal with migration problems you have to get your authorities wide awake. How do you do that? I guess complaining is a beginning? For example: the Jewish community in Amsterdam can't move freely without being spit on, threatened, humiliated or sometimes beaten up by scum with an islamic background. Rather than taking some "Israelian measures" to deal with this scum I'm happy they complained so now the authorities in Amsterdam are guarding Jewish institutions like schools and synagogs. I'm not sure if they're really happy with the outcome of their complaints though...

[Give it to Ron]

The U.K. Stopped the EU imposing high tariffs on th chinese steel.

 

Sky News Newsdesk ‏@SkyNewsBreak 47m47 minutes ago

 

Sky News has learnt that China has said it would levy 46% duties on a type of high-tech steel produced by #TataSteel in Wales

[solentstars]

We pool our sovereignty, we haven't given it away.

you think those who want out would realize that,i,m confident just like what happened in the referendum in 1975 that the britsh public will vote to stay in,when they realize that the out campaign has no answers and is all talk and no real answers apart from made up fantasys.

[Batman]

[benjii]

Patrick Minford! Christ, blast from the past. Some of his peers thought he was behind the times fifteen years ago when I dealt with him. That's not to say they were right and he was wrong but he has been staunchly anti-Europe for decades.

 

Personally, I wouldn't listen to any macroeconomist on this subject. You'll be able to find one who agrees with you, whatever it is you think.

[Batman]

China and the states have imposed Tarifs in order to look after their own industries...the EU cant really because not every nation can agree. In that time, Steel industry in parts of the EU just close down with little being done

 

 

although, not all the fault of the EU

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/how-is-britain-going-green-by-shutting-down-industry/

Edited 2 April, 2016 by Batman

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

In order to deal with migration problems you have to get your authorities wide awake. How do you do that? I guess complaining is a beginning? For example: the Jewish community in Amsterdam can't move freely without being spit on, threatened, humiliated or sometimes beaten up by scum with an islamic background. Rather than taking some "Israelian measures" to deal with this scum I'm happy they complained so now the authorities in Amsterdam are guarding Jewish institutions like schools and synagogs. I'm not sure if they're really happy with the outcome of their complaints though...

 

You will agree I take it that Europe has a long and dismal history of antisemitism that can be traced back many centurys - in fact a history that obviously long predates the establishment of the EEC/EU in the post WWII era. Arguments about immigration and free movement within the EU single market area are of course complex, however, the furtherance of old prejudices is not a EU policy that this observer of events can recognise. As we both clearly enjoy analogies, I would venture that to lay the blame for antisemitism at the door of the EU is almost akin to blaming the Eurovision Song Contest for terrible pop music - I.e. the situation is rather less straightforward than that.

 

The fact that our continent has not yet rid itself of the appalling scourge of antisemitism is a matter that all right thinking people should deplore I would have thought, and we can only hope that those responsible for the race crimes you describe above will soon be held to account for their crimes.

But it seems to me that we don't need to look too far back into that history of antisemitism to realize that these attitudes and forms of behavoiur are by no means limited to the followers of any one religious faith. For that matter, atheists are by no means excluded from any responsibility here either are they? I say that if both religion and the EU didn't exist today then we'd soon have to invent them because both respond to a recognisable Human need to understand the world or to cooperate together in order to increase both our prosperity and security.

 

Neither the UK nor the Netherlands can "Pull up the Drawbridge" on the modern world - we have to engage with it and deal with the problems that internationalism does bring as they come along.

Edited 2 April, 2016 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[van Hanegem]

You will agree I take it that Europe has a long and dismal history of antisemitism that can be traced back many centurys - in fact a history that obviously long predates the establishment of the EEC/EU in the post WWII era. Arguments about immigration and free movement within the EU single market area are of course complex, however, the furtherance of old prejudices is not a EU policy that this observer of events can recognise. As we both clearly enjoy analogies, I would venture that to lay the blame for antisemitism at the door of the EU is almost akin to blaming the Eurovision Song Contest for terrible pop music - I.e. the situation is rather less straightforward than that.

 

The fact that our continent has not yet rid itself of the appalling scourge of antisemitism is a matter that all right thinking people should deplore I would have thought, and we can only hope that those responsible for the race crimes you describe above will soon be held to account for their crimes.

But it seems to me that we don't need to look too far back into that history of antisemitism to realize that these attitudes and forms of behavoiur are by no means limited to the followers of any one religious faith. For that matter, atheists are by no means excluded from any responsibility here either are they? I say that if both religion and the EU didn't exist today then we'd soon have to invent them because both respond to a recognisable Human need to understand the world or to cooperate together in order to increase both our prosperity and security.

 

Neither the UK nor the Netherlands can "Pull up the Drawbridge" on the modern world - we have to engage with it and deal with the problems that internationalism does bring as they come along.

 

Oh, I can only agree that antisemitism (when you use this term to address only the hatred against Jews) is still vivid in Europe, especially the eastern part of it. The Dutch also have a nasty history with refusing fleeing Jews from Germany back in the '30s of last century though they also were the only ones who stood up against the nazi's when it came to the deportation of Jews. I guess it's due to the small population of the Jewish community in Holland that they could live in peace and without fear for a long time. Yet, times have changed and now more and more Jews are thinking about leaving the country for the sake of their children. Let's be clear on this: this has nothing to do with lingering old sentiments of antisemitism in Europe, it's very obvious it's because off the islamic culture rising in a city like Amsterdam and nothing else. You can't condone this by saying "these attitudes and forms of behaviour are by no means limited to the followers of any religious faith", that way you are trivialising things, looking away from the facts happening right before your eyes.

 

Do I blame the EU for the fact that Holland does have many problems (like antisemitism, the principle of equality, the freedom of speech and so on) with islamic culture nowadays? Yes and no. According to Buctootim it's useless to look back but as you mentioned it I'll go into this. The Dutch government welcomed the idea of taking in workers from Turkey and Morocco (and from Spain and Italy too but you will understand those are gladly accepted) by companies back in the '60s. They forgot to give a work permit only for the time they were needed, like the Swiss are still doing. So initially we can only blame ourselves off course. However, might I remind you of the oil crisis back in 1973? I know, it wasn't called the EU back then but see what those idiots have done because they were afraid of not getting enough oil... They signed a treaty called the Resolution of Strasbourg in 1975, see the parts written in blue and start weeping: https://ejbron.wordpress.com/2015/02/15/de-resolutie-van-straatsburg/ What the hell were they thinking? The scary part is that they're still acting on it...

 

I assume that you know that the rich Arabian countries refuse to give shelter to refugees. Why is that? Because they do not want muslims with a different view on their ideology? That might be plausible as you can't have too many different opinions on Mohammed cs. in your country, before you know they start throwing bombs around or blow themselves to pieces and we can't have that, can we now? Yet, I believe there's another reason and that is that islam has one ultimate goal: world domination. Especially the fanatics in Saudi Arabia will have tears of joy in their eyes with so many muslims leaving for Europe, there's a world to conquer... See how they're funding fundamentalists in Indonesia, the biggest muslim country in the world which used to be very moderate. See how they are funding Isis and see how they're funding mosques all over Europe, it should open your eyes to what is really happening.

 

Off course you can look upon things through the eyes of a westerner raised with high morals, enlightened by education and thinking Sour Mash or me are sad individuals, scared with the changes going on or coming. It would be the politically right thing to do off course. You would be wrong though...

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Oh, I can only agree that antisemitism (when you use this term to address only the hatred against Jews) is still vivid in Europe, especially the eastern part of it. The Dutch also have a nasty history with refusing fleeing Jews from Germany back in the '30s of last century though they also were the only ones who stood up against the nazi's when it came to the deportation of Jews. I guess it's due to the small population of the Jewish community in Holland that they could live in peace and without fear for a long time. Yet, times have changed and now more and more Jews are thinking about leaving the country for the sake of their children. Let's be clear on this: this has nothing to do with lingering old sentiments of antisemitism in Europe, it's very obvious it's because off the islamic culture rising in a city like Amsterdam and nothing else. You can't condone this by saying "these attitudes and forms of behaviour are by no means limited to the followers of any religious faith", that way you are trivialising things, looking away from the facts happening right before your eyes.

 

Do I blame the EU for the fact that Holland does have many problems (like antisemitism, the principle of equality, the freedom of speech and so on) with islamic culture nowadays? Yes and no. According to Buctootim it's useless to look back but as you mentioned it I'll go into this. The Dutch government welcomed the idea of taking in workers from Turkey and Morocco (and from Spain and Italy too but you will understand those are gladly accepted) by companies back in the '60s. They forgot to give a work permit only for the time they were needed, like the Swiss are still doing. So initially we can only blame ourselves off course. However, might I remind you of the oil crisis back in 1973? I know, it wasn't called the EU back then but see what those idiots have done because they were afraid of not getting enough oil... They signed a treaty called the Resolution of Strasbourg in 1975, see the parts written in blue and start weeping: https://ejbron.wordpress.com/2015/02/15/de-resolutie-van-straatsburg/ What the hell were they thinking? The scary part is that they're still acting on it...

 

I assume that you know that the rich Arabian countries refuse to give shelter to refugees. Why is that? Because they do not want muslims with a different view on their ideology? That might be plausible as you can't have too many different opinions on Mohammed cs. in your country, before you know they start throwing bombs around or blow themselves to pieces and we can't have that, can we now? Yet, I believe there's another reason and that is that islam has one ultimate goal: world domination. Especially the fanatics in Saudi Arabia will have tears of joy in their eyes with so many muslims leaving for Europe, there's a world to conquer... See how they're funding fundamentalists in Indonesia, the biggest muslim country in the world which used to be very moderate. See how they are funding Isis and see how they're funding mosques all over Europe, it should open your eyes to what is really happening.

 

Off course you can look upon things through the eyes of a westerner raised with high morals, enlightened by education and thinking Sour Mash or me are sad individuals, scared with the changes going on or coming. It would be the politically right thing to do off course. You would be wrong though...

 

First off, my appolgies go to those seeking to debate the coming EU referendum issue here as this thread has somehow become entangled with the long running 'Paris Attack' saga. This is type of thing is regrettable of course, but fairly common alas.

 

Secondly, I don't agree that to simply point out that antisemitism is very far from being a uniquely Muslim problem, and in fact has a long history in Europe, is at all to "trivialize" this important issue. I raise this point only in a effort to counter any suggestion put about on here that Muslims display some special capacity for evil when such a idea is not supported by the historical record. I have stated on here before (on serveral ocassions) that I don't consider what might be crudely depicted as the 'Islamic World' has advanced into modernity at the same rate as many other areas arguably have. There is perhaps a interesting debate to be had on here someday exploring the issues surrounding this state of devlopmental retardation and why that should be.

 

I cannot speak of the societital and crime situation pertaining in the Netherlands today as I have never been there and know little of the true position. I can however pass comment on the UK as (obviously) I have some direct person knowledge, both from my everyday working life and close family relationships. My experience, and the historical record, show that British Muslims are predominently of Pakistani or Bangladeshi extraction and are here in the UK today primarily because of reasons that are related more to this nation's imperial past rather than our EU membership. This segment of the UK population - around 4.5% currently - virtually all arrived here legally and now hold British citizenship. British Muslims today serve in government, our armed forces, the public services and make a significant contribution to our economy.

Contrary to the impression some might have gained from reading this forum of late, the actual evidence gathered by the respected BCS (British Crime Survey) shows that there to be little or no difference between the rate and type of crimes British Muslims commit compared to other groups in society. In other words they are more typical rather than atypical in this regard. http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/crime-data-research-throws-new-light-on-british-muslim-communities

 

Now it is VERY clear that extremist terrorists who profess to be devout Muslims (but sometimes exhibit a lifestyle that is anything but Islamic in nature) are a real problem that nobody would wish to underestimate. I put it to you that this problem is as much related to the failure of some EU nations to successfully intregate their Muslim populations, and the state of gross inequality that exists in the world, as it is to matters of scripture. As for your notion that Muslims are engaged in a attempt to obtain "world domination" ... well that presuposes that there is some sinister central power at work somewhere that is directing this well organised plot of yours. I see no evidence to support any such conclusion and must inform you that this idea has a certain ring of paranoia about it.

 

Finally, if you wish to associate yourself with the likes of Sour then by all means do so. However, if I was you I'd take rather more care about the company I keep on here.

 

.

Edited 2 April, 2016 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[Batman]

I wonder if the EU will put swift measures in place to save the steel industry around the EU