EU referendum

[buctootim]

That post sums up how you, and many on the modern day left, view the working class of this country.

 

Thanks for popping up, its how I view you. Sad you equate being working class with being thick. Btw I'm a Weston council house boy, dad was a docker and mum a dinner lady -if you want to trade creds.

Edited 19 April, 2016 by buctootim

[ashnats]

The thick and old want to leave. The young and educated vote stay. It seems Saintsweb is representative after all.

 

[/img]

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546306/Are-neighbours-map-shows-Britain-s-coastal-regions-leading-charge-Brexit-graduate-towns-backing-EU-membership.html

 

interesting - it also seems to show that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing - every age group increases it's probability of voting the wrong way with a little bit of education, before decreasing again at higher levels.

[buctootim]

interesting - it also seems to show that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing - every age group increases it's probability of voting the wrong way with a little bit of education, before decreasing again at higher levels.

 

Exactly. Its also interesting that if you go to the Mail article there is a map showing voting intention by local authority area. Its more random than you would expect - no obvious urban / rural or north / south splits. Leave areas are cheek by jowl with remain areas which would otherwise notionally seem similar.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

So, to summarise.

 

On the one hand we have the clear majority of opinion within British industry, every serious financial analysis of the situation that I am aware of and the leaders of all our main political parties - bar UKIP of course - warning of the potential dangers to the future welfare of our economy should the British people vote to leave the EU.

 

Set against all that I see little more than a emotive appeal to our sense of island independence, some (probably spurious) claims about border control coupled with vague talk of Britain doing better on its own somehow. The small matter of the very real threat to the continued existence of the United Kingdom - as we now know it - has hardly even been discussed on here as yet.

 

The truth is we have to live with the EU whether we are members of that organisation or not. Those who disapprove of the way the EU currently operates would do better perhaps to concentrate their efforts on arguing for the constructive REFORM of the EU rather than our destructive RETREAT from it. Clearly the only effective way we can influence that reform process is from within rather than without.

[Sour Mash]

Thanks for popping up, its how I view you. Sad you equate being working class with being thick. Btw I'm a Weston council house boy, dad was a docker and mum a dinner lady -if you want to trade creds.

Its alright, you don't have to justify yourself to me

[Goatboy]

So, to summarise.

 

On the one hand we have the clear majority of opinion within British industry, every serious financial analysis of the situation that I am aware of and the leaders of all our main political parties - bar UKIP of course - warning of the potential dangers to the future welfare of our economy should the British people vote to leave the EU.

 

Set against all that I see little more than a emotive appeal to our sense of island independence, some (probably spurious) claims about border control coupled with vague talk of Britain doing better on its own somehow. The small matter of the very real threat to the continued existence of the United Kingdom - as we now know it - has hardly even been discussed on here as yet.

 

The truth is we have to live with the EU whether we are members of that organisation or not. Those who disapprove of the way the EU currently operates would do better perhaps to concentrate their efforts on arguing for the constructive REFORM of the EU rather than our destructive RETREAT from it. Clearly the only effective way we can influence that reform process is from within rather than without.

 

Yep. Dave the pig f*cker has shown how good we are at reforming the EU from within.

[cambsaint]

I'm surprised just how many older people want to leave the EU.

They have lived through seventy years of peace in Europe and the Western world.

The European Court was largely led by the British and Churchill post WW2 to try to ensure that never again could a Hitler legitimately reach power via the ballot box and go to war and commit crimes against humanity.

They have enjoyed previously unimaginable prosperity since we joined the EU.

Our economy was a basket case post-war largely due to incompetent old-boy management and class-war by the unions after they had seen how the officer class lived in WW2-(that's my opinion btw.)

If you really think back to the halcyon days of the fifties and early sixties (sarcasm btw) you will remember a moribund, class-ridden society in which the majority of workers were poor.

Many pensioners are enjoying a lifestyle that couldn't have been imagined a few decades ago and living much longer.

They are able to travel freely to Europe for holidays and even invest in property, or retire to the sun.

Their pensions have got to be paid for somehow, as we are sitting on an unexploded time-bomb as all public service pensions and pensions and benefits are unfunded and paid out of current taxation. Without willing hard working immigrants payig tax on largely low incomes we could never afford them.

Where I live the Addenbrookes Hospital complex looks like a crane-breeding colony (The Liebherr variety not the feathered), I recently went up the Shard and saw the enormous hospital complexes that have been built in the last couple of decades. These largely have to be staffed by migrant health-workers, due partly to government policy in not encouraging or allowing (doctors' trade union and subservient politicians largely guilty here) enough UK residents to train, but also by sheer numbers.

Property prices have allowed the elderly to crucify the next generation and forced many of them to be fleeced by scum buy to let landlords.

Why on earth would my generation risk destroying their good fortune!

There are countless examples of good EU legislation that have benefit consumers when British politicians would have cosied up with the big business that provides their free meals (ever noticed how so many get fat very quickly after election), their directorships, their fat consultancies -yes I mean you man of straw, as well as Tories.

Is the real reason desire for self-determination to try to return the UK to a post-feudal society like before the mid sixties.

Surprisingly I hadn't meant to write this before I read the poll figures, I had meant to say that I had never been so decided in my adult life about how to vote.

I'm not any more after writing this, I'm not going to risk my good fortune and my children's future prosperity on a chimaera of an unlikely better deal I realise that despite its undoubted warts I'm actually pretty comfortable with my lot in the EU.

[buctootim]

I'm surprised just how many older people want to leave the EU.

They have lived through seventy years of peace in Europe and the Western world.

The European Court was largely led by the British and Churchill post WW2 to try to ensure that never again could a Hitler legitimately reach power via the ballot box and go to war and commit crimes against humanity.

They have enjoyed previously unimaginable prosperity since we joined the EU.

Our economy was a basket case post-war largely due to incompetent old-boy management and class-war by the unions after they had seen how the officer class lived in WW2-(that's my opinion btw.)

If you really think back to the halcyon days of the fifties and early sixties (sarcasm btw) you will remember a moribund, class-ridden society in which the majority of workers were poor.

Many pensioners are enjoying a lifestyle that couldn't have been imagined a few decades ago and living much longer.

They are able to travel freely to Europe for holidays and even invest in property, or retire to the sun.

Their pensions have got to be paid for somehow, as we are sitting on an unexploded time-bomb as all public service pensions and pensions and benefits are unfunded and paid out of current taxation. Without willing hard working immigrants payig tax on largely low incomes we could never afford them.

Where I live the Addenbrookes Hospital complex looks like a crane-breeding colony (The Liebherr variety not the feathered), I recently went up the Shard and saw the enormous hospital complexes that have been built in the last couple of decades. These largely have to be staffed by migrant health-workers, due partly to government policy in not encouraging or allowing (doctors' trade union and subservient politicians largely guilty here) enough UK residents to train, but also by sheer numbers.

Property prices have allowed the elderly to crucify the next generation and forced many of them to be fleeced by scum buy to let landlords.

Why on earth would my generation risk destroying their good fortune!

There are countless examples of good EU legislation that have benefit consumers when British politicians would have cosied up with the big business that provides their free meals (ever noticed how so many get fat very quickly after election), their directorships, their fat consultancies -yes I mean you man of straw, as well as Tories.

Is the real reason desire for self-determination to try to return the UK to a post-feudal society like before the mid sixties.

Surprisingly I hadn't meant to write this before I read the poll figures, I had meant to say that I had never been so decided in my adult life about how to vote.

I'm not any more after writing this, I'm not going to risk my good fortune and my children's future prosperity on a chimaera of an unlikely better deal I realise that despite its undoubted warts I'm actually pretty comfortable with my lot in the EU.

 

Excellent post. If you read the comments after the Mail story many seem to hark back to a golden age which really only existed in comparison to earlier rationing and austerity. Relative to other countries we fell behind. Many talk about building Britain's prosperity after WW2, but that was the period when we fell from being number 2 in the world economically to being behind Germany, France and others - who formed the common market in 1956. We only started to catch up again once we joined in 1973. Of course there were many other factors at work too but to deny the role of the EU is hard to understand.

Edited 19 April, 2016 by buctootim

[Wes Tender]

The thick and old want to leave. The young and educated vote stay. It seems Saintsweb is representative after all.

 

[/img]

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546306/Are-neighbours-map-shows-Britain-s-coastal-regions-leading-charge-Brexit-graduate-towns-backing-EU-membership.html

 

It only shows you what you think you want it to say. Anybody else who cares to look at it with a bit more objectivity realises that there are several factors which could be interpreted in whatever way that people wish to in order to suit their own agendas, like most of statistical "evidence".

 

Let's have a look at some of these factors.

 

Size of sample: 60,000. How representative is that and how evenly was the spread of responses over the geographical area and the age variations?

Time period: This covered a time scale of up to a couple of years or more and events since have probably altered voters' intentions, especially following the immigration growth situation.

Reliability: What percentage of responses to any poll are honest, as it is certainly the case that some will deliberately be mischievous to skew the results.

 

Regarding the demographics of the poll sample, whereas you like to simplify it as the young and intelligent who wish to remain, it could equally be summarised that those older voters with more life experience and the wisdom that brings are for leaving. They at least have some idea of how we fared before we joined the Common Market and how we had been denied a say on the subsequent treaty changes by successive governments. Regarding the education profile of the sample polled, any conclusions drawn from that have been skewed over the past decades by the comparative ease of going to university to obtain useless degrees in media studies and the like, as well as the deterioration in the value of the qualifications obtained at secondary and college level.

 

What is far more significant, is the probability that the older voters are far more likely to vote than the younger ones, so it seems that despite the idealism that comes with youth and the supposed intelligence that they possess, they don't really care enough about the issue to be that bothered about it all, despite it being influential on their futures. It is ironic in some ways that when I was young, it was during a period of the younger generation idealistically wanting to change the establishment, whereas now they seem quite content to accept the status quo whereby much of the running of our country is in the hands of unelected and faceless bureaucrats in Brussels.

[Batman]

I would not take much notice of any poll after they showing in the last General Election

[Sour Mash]

I'm surprised just how many older people want to leave the EU.

They have lived through seventy years of peace in Europe and the Western world.

The European Court was largely led by the British and Churchill post WW2 to try to ensure that never again could a Hitler legitimately reach power via the ballot box and go to war and commit crimes against humanity.

They have enjoyed previously unimaginable prosperity since we joined the EU.

Our economy was a basket case post-war largely due to incompetent old-boy management and class-war by the unions after they had seen how the officer class lived in WW2-(that's my opinion btw.)

If you really think back to the halcyon days of the fifties and early sixties (sarcasm btw) you will remember a moribund, class-ridden society in which the majority of workers were poor.

Many pensioners are enjoying a lifestyle that couldn't have been imagined a few decades ago and living much longer.

They are able to travel freely to Europe for holidays and even invest in property, or retire to the sun.

Their pensions have got to be paid for somehow, as we are sitting on an unexploded time-bomb as all public service pensions and pensions and benefits are unfunded and paid out of current taxation. Without willing hard working immigrants payig tax on largely low incomes we could never afford them.

Where I live the Addenbrookes Hospital complex looks like a crane-breeding colony (The Liebherr variety not the feathered), I recently went up the Shard and saw the enormous hospital complexes that have been built in the last couple of decades. These largely have to be staffed by migrant health-workers, due partly to government policy in not encouraging or allowing (doctors' trade union and subservient politicians largely guilty here) enough UK residents to train, but also by sheer numbers.

Property prices have allowed the elderly to crucify the next generation and forced many of them to be fleeced by scum buy to let landlords.

Why on earth would my generation risk destroying their good fortune!

There are countless examples of good EU legislation that have benefit consumers when British politicians would have cosied up with the big business that provides their free meals (ever noticed how so many get fat very quickly after election), their directorships, their fat consultancies -yes I mean you man of straw, as well as Tories.

Is the real reason desire for self-determination to try to return the UK to a post-feudal society like before the mid sixties.

Surprisingly I hadn't meant to write this before I read the poll figures, I had meant to say that I had never been so decided in my adult life about how to vote.

I'm not any more after writing this, I'm not going to risk my good fortune and my children's future prosperity on a chimaera of an unlikely better deal I realise that despite its undoubted warts I'm actually pretty comfortable with my lot in the EU.

Why would any of that change if we left the EU?

[Johnny Bognor]

The thick and old want to leave. The young and educated vote stay. It seems Saintsweb is representative after all.

 

[/img]

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546306/Are-neighbours-map-shows-Britain-s-coastal-regions-leading-charge-Brexit-graduate-towns-backing-EU-membership.html

 

 

With the 1500 Monnet professors who are paid by the EU to promote the EU within universities, you could argue that it is the "young brainwashed media studies graduates" vote to remain, whilst "people with real life experience" vote to leave.

 

On another note (and I am sure a few lefties would enjoy my take on this), but George Osbourne for me needs to go. He presented his forecast for us being worse off by 2030 as a "fact". This is up there with Gordon Brown's "no more boom and bust" mantra. Osbourne can't even get his own forecasts from year to year correct, yet he can accurately forecast 14 years ahead and present it as a fact?? This is beyond stretching the truth and for this, he should be removed from office.

[buctootim]

With the 1500 Monnet professors who are paid by the EU to promote the EU within universities, you could argue that it is the "young brainwashed media studies graduates" vote to remain, whilst "people with real life experience" vote to leave.

 

On another note (and I am sure a few lefties would enjoy my take on this), but George Osbourne for me needs to go. He presented his forecast for us being worse off by 2030 as a "fact". This is up there with Gordon Brown's "no more boom and bust" mantra. Osbourne can't even get his own forecasts from year to year correct, yet he can accurately forecast 14 years ahead and present it as a fact?? This is beyond stretching the truth and for this, he should be removed from office.

 

Not really. If that were true level of education amongst older people wouldnt influence voting intention. It does - and to a greater extent than for younger people.

 

George Osborne does need to go. He has been wrong about so many fundamental aspects of economic policy growth rates / austerity/ effect of new tax rates / forecasts he has no credibility and hasnt for years imo.

Edited 19 April, 2016 by buctootim

[Fatboy40]

With the 1500 Monnet professors who are paid by the EU to promote the EU within universities, you could argue that it is the "young brainwashed media studies graduates" vote to remain, whilst "people with real life experience" vote to leave.

 

I still check this thread now and again, and in-between the childish bickering and personal insults you find the odd nugget of gold like this, thank you.

 

All organisations and political parties have their own funded interest groups, they always will, but I was never aware of this one...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Monnet_Programme

[aintforever]

In the interests of balance, a forum member from the Out camp has already played the "British public are stupid" card. Let's not pretend it is a trait of just the remainers.

 

Oh come on, it doesn't matter which way you vote, the British public in general are not the brightest bunch - how else do you explain Tony Blair getting re-elected after an illegal war, the Sun being the best selling paper, or the X factor?

 

My point about the leaflet is because it has the HM Government logo on it and it is designed like an information leaflet - it will work in that it will persuade some people to vote in. I have studied and worked in advertising/design for over 25 years and I'm pretty sure this dishonest, underhand approach will work better than if they had produced a leaflet with the Britain Stronger In logo on (which in my opinion is what they should have done) so people could recognise it as propaganda and not think they are just reading the facts of the issue.

 

Britain will vote to stay in anyway, it won't even be close.

[CB Fry]

Oh come on, it doesn't matter which way you vote, the British public in general are not the brightest bunch - how else do you explain Tony Blair getting re-elected after an illegal war, the Sun being the best selling paper, or the X factor?

 

My point about the leaflet is because it has the HM Government logo on it and it is designed like an information leaflet - it will work in that it will persuade some people to vote in. I have studied and worked in advertising/design for over 25 years and I'm pretty sure this dishonest, underhand approach will work better than if they had produced a leaflet with the Britain Stronger In logo on (which in my opinion is what they should have done) so people could recognise it as propaganda and not think they are just reading the facts of the issue.

 

Britain will vote to stay in anyway, it won't even be close.

 

I agree with you on the great British public, as I said previously. Just want to show that both sides are using it.

 

Fundamentally I disagree about the leaflet, because it should come from the government, it is what the government is recommending, and I think they should be allowed to recommend it. Whether you like it or not, this is not a general election. It is not a 50/50 choice. It is the government looking to ratify their recommendation.

 

Secondly I've read the leaflet and also have marketing experience in product, packaging and ATL/BTL copy for a decade. Personally I think it reads fine.

 

There's nothing dishonest or underhand about it, already the two things picked up on this thread as "lies" (it's not from the government (it is) it lies about borders (it doesn't)) have been proved to be not dishonest or underhand, but utterly, absolutely, unequivocally true.

 

There's reverse spin going on ("ah yes but that bit is implying so and so") but that's in the eye of the beholder and not actually in the leaflet, as with the borders section.

 

There's nothing anyone has pointed out that is wrong or false, or dishonest or underhand in that leaflet. In fact a £9m leaflet through every door in the country is about the least underhand thing you can do. Everyone has seen it.

 

Personally I don't share your confidence and think Out could well win, especially if some of the small factors that could come into play (something with migrants or terrorism, a high profile governmental crisis not directly related but could be spun that way (doctors strike) ) or something functional (it rains all day on polling day) could tip the balance. It's close.

[ashnats]

Oh come on, it doesn't matter which way you vote, the British public in general are not the brightest bunch - how else do you explain Tony Blair getting re-elected after an illegal war, the Sun being the best selling paper, or the X factor?

 

My point about the leaflet is because it has the HM Government logo on it and it is designed like an information leaflet - it will work in that it will persuade some people to vote in. I have studied and worked in advertising/design for over 25 years and I'm pretty sure this dishonest, underhand approach will work better than if they had produced a leaflet with the Britain Stronger In logo on (which in my opinion is what they should have done) so people could recognise it as propaganda and not think they are just reading the facts of the issue.

 

Britain will vote to stay in anyway, it won't even be close.

 

If it works better, why suggest doing it differently? Not sure you will find politicians who act with honesty and transparency ahead of their own political agenda. If they did, they wouldn't get in power, because there will always be someone else willing to bend the rules to win.

[Batman]

Excellent post. If you read the comments after the Mail story many seem to hark back to a golden age which really only existed in comparison to earlier rationing and austerity. Relative to other countries we fell behind. Many talk about building Britain's prosperity after WW2, but that was the period when we fell from being number 2 in the world economically to being behind Germany, France and others - who formed the common market in 1956. We only started to catch up again once we joined in 1973. Of course there were many other factors at work too but to deny the role of the EU is hard to understand.

 

I wonder if southern european states would share your view on how beneficial being in the EU is to their own economies?

[ashnats]

I wonder if southern european states would share your view on how beneficial being in the EU is to their own economies?

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/87123d80-da3c-11e5-98fd-06d75973fe09.html#axzz46Gub6skK

 

maybe?

[Wes Tender]

Oh come on, it doesn't matter which way you vote, the British public in general are not the brightest bunch - how else do you explain Tony Blair getting re-elected after an illegal war, the Sun being the best selling paper, or the X factor?

 

My point about the leaflet is because it has the HM Government logo on it and it is designed like an information leaflet - it will work in that it will persuade some people to vote in. I have studied and worked in advertising/design for over 25 years and I'm pretty sure this dishonest, underhand approach will work better than if they had produced a leaflet with the Britain Stronger In logo on (which in my opinion is what they should have done) so people could recognise it as propaganda and not think they are just reading the facts of the issue.

 

Britain will vote to stay in anyway, it won't even be close.

 

Yes, you're entirely right in your opinion that a large proportion of the British public will be gullible enough to give more credence to the propaganda that has been issued to each household because it has the HM Government logo on it. Sufficient numbers have recognised this and enough have signed a petition to that effect, that it will be debated in the House of Parliament. There has already been a rather weak whitewash response on behalf of the government claiming that a significant percentage of the electorate (figures provided by the Department of Guesswork) required additional factual information about the implications of us staying or leaving in order to make their minds up.

 

Like you, I have a background in advertising over an even longer period and am capable of recognising that there are many ways that questions can be asked, how a position is presented to gain either the most approval or to generate the most cause for concern and uncertainty. For the benefit of those who accused me of conspiracy theories for saying this a few weeks back before I went on holiday, here is a visual explanation that should illustrate the methodology in a way that they ought to be able to comprehend.

 

 

What was despicable about the Government's propaganda, was that they claimed that the document was a factual summary, when there were elements of speculation about what the possible implications of our leaving would be. Yes, they used factual information about the benefits that we had accrued from our membership in terms of trade and social legislation benefits, but then subsequently made this monstrous claim by Osborne about how much poorer each family would be per annum in the event of us leaving.

 

Goebbels would have been proud of them.

Edited 19 April, 2016 by Wes Tender

[moonraker]

That post sums up how you, and many on the modern day left, view the working class of this country.

 

Well I am oldish educated and working class and I am for staying. I take no offence from Buctootim's post, because their is no offence in what he said only a resonable deduction from the article he referenced.

[Fatboy40]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/87123d80-da3c-11e5-98fd-06d75973fe09.html#axzz46Gub6skK

 

maybe?

 

Paywall

[moonraker]

The EU referendum is one prompted by the anti EU lobby. It is therefore beholden on the leave campaign to make a case for leaving. The remain campaign have 2 roles, to present the case for staying in and to respond to the leave campaigns claims.

The leave campaign have, in my view, utterly failed to make a any coherent argument for leaving the EU. There strategy has one line, tap into peoples emotions. They make claims on sovereignty, immigration, trade, defence and anything else one can think of, that are if I am generous, based on misunderstanding, but more likely I suspect are actually devious misrepresentations to support their ideological myopia. I have heard and seen written by convicted Brexiters that they would be happy to be worse off provided they are out of the EU, this for me is tantamount to admitting that exit will indeed have a negative impact, that they know it, and that they don’t care.

The flip side is the remain campaign have also been creative with some of their claims, however what cannot be denied is that remaining will ensure that all of our current international agreements remain in tact, our relationships with our nearest neighbours don’t sour, we have an ongoing say and in some areas a veto on EU policy and directives, and leaders around the world (those that matter to us) will breath a huge sigh of relief.

The Brexit portrayal of remain as project fear is part of their emotional campaign, it not fear its called debating, you say something I respond, I say something you respond. They cannot produce any real evidence and are incapable of delivering any clear policies so instead they attempt to rubbish not just the leave campaign but any organisation however highly respected, successful and credible that dares to present the case for remain. It is a parallel to our fishy friends blaming the FA and everyone else but themselves for their failures, but now they are fan owned everything is fine and dandy. Well I do not want my country to end up in the 2nd division of nations without a pot to **** whilst goading my neighbours about our ancient history.

[Sour Mash]

Well I am oldish educated and working class and I am for staying. I take no offence from Buctootim's post, because their is no offence in what he said only a resonable deduction from the article he referenced.

You don't have a degree, so I doubt it applies to you.

[Batman]

The EU referendum is one prompted by the anti EU lobby. It is therefore beholden on the leave campaign to make a case for leaving. The remain campaign have 2 roles, to present the case for staying in and to respond to the leave campaigns claims.

The leave campaign have, in my view, utterly failed to make a any coherent argument for leaving the EU. There strategy has one line, tap into peoples emotions. They make claims on sovereignty, immigration, trade, defence and anything else one can think of, that are if I am generous, based on misunderstanding, but more likely I suspect are actually devious misrepresentations to support their ideological myopia. I have heard and seen written by convicted Brexiters that they would be happy to be worse off provided they are out of the EU, this for me is tantamount to admitting that exit will indeed have a negative impact, that they know it, and that they don’t care.

The flip side is the remain campaign have also been creative with some of their claims, however what cannot be denied is that remaining will ensure that all of our current international agreements remain in tact, our relationships with our nearest neighbours don’t sour, we have an ongoing say and in some areas a veto on EU policy and directives, and leaders around the world (those that matter to us) will breath a huge sigh of relief.

The Brexit portrayal of remain as project fear is part of their emotional campaign, it not fear its called debating, you say something I respond, I say something you respond. They cannot produce any real evidence and are incapable of delivering any clear policies so instead they attempt to rubbish not just the leave campaign but any organisation however highly respected, successful and credible that dares to present the case for remain. It is a parallel to our fishy friends blaming the FA and everyone else but themselves for their failures, but now they are fan owned everything is fine and dandy. Well I do not want my country to end up in the 2nd division of nations without a pot to **** whilst goading my neighbours about our ancient history.

 

devious v creative. guess we know which side of the fence you are on with those choice of words

 

nothing devious (just creative) in the chancellor telling us all we would be broke by 2030 if we leave

creative soul is our george

 

 

they are all telling porkies

Edited 19 April, 2016 by Batman

[moonraker]

You don't have a degree, so I doubt it applies to you.

 

How is that relevent?

[Wes Tender]

The EU referendum is one prompted by the anti EU lobby. It is therefore beholden on the leave campaign to make a case for leaving. The remain campaign have 2 roles, to present the case for staying in and to respond to the leave campaigns claims.

The leave campaign have, in my view, utterly failed to make a any coherent argument for leaving the EU. There strategy has one line, tap into peoples emotions. They make claims on sovereignty, immigration, trade, defence and anything else one can think of, that are if I am generous, based on misunderstanding, but more likely I suspect are actually devious misrepresentations to support their ideological myopia. I have heard and seen written by convicted Brexiters that they would be happy to be worse off provided they are out of the EU, this for me is tantamount to admitting that exit will indeed have a negative impact, that they know it, and that they don’t care.

The flip side is the remain campaign have also been creative with some of their claims, however what cannot be denied is that remaining will ensure that all of our current international agreements remain in tact, our relationships with our nearest neighbours don’t sour, we have an ongoing say and in some areas a veto on EU policy and directives, and leaders around the world (those that matter to us) will breath a huge sigh of relief.

The Brexit portrayal of remain as project fear is part of their emotional campaign, it not fear its called debating, you say something I respond, I say something you respond. They cannot produce any real evidence and are incapable of delivering any clear policies so instead they attempt to rubbish not just the leave campaign but any organisation however highly respected, successful and credible that dares to present the case for remain. It is a parallel to our fishy friends blaming the FA and everyone else but themselves for their failures, but now they are fan owned everything is fine and dandy. Well I do not want my country to end up in the 2nd division of nations without a pot to **** whilst goading my neighbours about our ancient history.

 

Kindly do enlighten us, oh knowledgeable one, what aspects of sovereignty, immigration, trade, defence and anything else, are based on misunderstandings by the Brexit camp and what those misunderstandings are.

 

Then, as you have brought it up, pray do tell us what the correct position is on those subjects.

 

You see, despite your position that these things have little relevance to whether we stay or leave the EU, please accept that whatever understanding people have of these issues that is up to them, and they should not be belittled for holding their own views just because you don't agree with them.

 

You insist that the Brexit camp cannot produce any clear evidence to support what the future situation would be following our exit, but equally you should accept that neither can the remain camp support their position that somehow everything will remain the same if we stay. The European project that began as the Common Market did not remain as just that and has continued to evolve towards a Federal Europe. Despite Dave's assurances that we will not be continuing along that road, the events of the past few decades that have dragged us inexorably towards that position do not provide any real comfort that pressures will not be brought upon us to relent, nor that a future government will not be more inclined towards that position.

[moonraker]

devious v creative. guess we know which side of the fence you are on with those choice of words

 

nothing devious (just creative) in the chancellor telling us all we would be broke by 2030 if we leave

creative soul is our george

 

 

they are all telling porkies

 

Agree but please as an obvious Brexiter what are the policies, where is the evidence that we will be better off out than in. To date all I have read ( and thats quite a lot) is a series of hopeful assertions that all favour the UK and assume the rest of Europe indeed the World will deal with us in the kindest and most welcoming way. I dont buy it.

[Batman]

Agree but please as an obvious Brexiter what are the policies, where is the evidence that we will be better off out than in. To date all I have read ( and thats quite a lot) is a series of hopeful assertions that all favour the UK and assume the rest of Europe indeed the World will deal with us in the kindest and most welcoming way. I dont buy it.

 

what are the policies and evidence we will be better off if we stay

 

cheers

[sadoldgit]

what are the policies and evidence we will be better off if we stay

 

cheers

 

He asked you first

[moonraker]

what are the policies and evidence we will be better off if we stay

 

cheers

 

Well little will change in the short term, the current policies, arrangements, agreements and relationships will endure. It is not for the remain campaign to offer alternatives to what they are campaigning for, we know what that is. It is for Brexit to provide a clear and coherent alternative, something they have continually failed to do, they cant even agree on a single campaign, if heaven forbid we vote to leave the infighting will be torturous . Change is only worth doing if you have real evidence that things will improve, Brexit has none and I for one do not believe the risk of leaving is acceptable. You are a prime example of one who continually points us to this problem or that issue with the EU or something you often incorrectly associate with the EU. Not once have you provided any real alternative as to how in the 2016 world we would be better off out than in.

[Batman]

here you go.

 

 

Well little will change in the short term, the current policies, arrangements, agreements and relationships will endure. It is not for the BREXIT campaign to offer alternatives to what they are campaigning for, we know what that is - a march towards a United States of Europe. It is for the REMAIN camp to provide a clear and coherent vision on what the EU will look like in 10, 20 years onwards, something they have continually failed to do, they cant even agree on a single campaign, if heaven forbid we vote to leave the infighting will be torturous Labour are constantly rubbishing the government over the issue along with the SNP. You are a prime example of one who continually points us to this problem or that issue is not with the EU or something you often incorrectly associate with elements external to the EU. Not once have you provided any real alternative as to how in the 2016 world we would be better off in than out.

 

 

HTH

[sadoldgit]

So you change a few words in someone else's statement and say happy to help. That is not help, it is just being lazy.

[Batman]

So you change a few words in someone else's statement and say happy to help. That is not help, it is just being lazy.

 

just demonstrates how there is little between voting in or out. the same issues still apply in many cases

but calling Osborne and co 'creative' about sending out their message to stay in, is too far really.

 

 

it like saying the Tories will privatise the NHS if they win the General Election. They havn't and won't

just wazz spouted either side

[Wes Tender]

He asked you first

 

He hasn't bothered responding to my challenge to him to explain where the Brexiters' are misunderstanding the matters that are important to them, you know, sovereignty, immigration, trade, defence (and anything else).

 

I asked him that first.

 

It is a bit lazy to assert that somebody's position is based on a misunderstanding of the situation and then not to explain why that situation is misunderstood.

[moonraker]

here you go.

 

 

Well little will change in the short term, the current policies, arrangements, agreements and relationships will endure. It is not for the BREXIT campaign to offer alternatives to what they are campaigning for, we know what that is - a march towards a United States of Europe. It is for the REMAIN camp to provide a clear and coherent vision on what the EU will look like in 10, 20 years onwards, something they have continually failed to do, they cant even agree on a single campaign, if heaven forbid we vote to leave the infighting will be torturous Labour are constantly rubbishing the government over the issue along with the SNP. You are a prime example of one who continually points us to this problem or that issue is not with the EU or something you often incorrectly associate with elements external to the EU. Not once have you provided any real alternative as to how in the 2016 world we would be better off in than out.

An I am flattered you have plagiarised my argument, as usual you are not very original. Mixing domestic politics and the referendum doesn’t quite answer the question. Its the oppositions job to challenge the Government. As to the vison for Europe do you honestly believe that if a USE were to be proposed that we would not get another referendum, indeed it would require all member states to ratify such a move and no country would do so without the backing of their electorates. So just like Turkey will be joining soon this is more scaremongering that has little substance other than a few eurocrats claiming it is their personal vision

 

HTH

 

An I am flattered you have plagerised my argument, as usual you are not very original. Mixing domestic politics and the referendum doesn’t quite answer the question. Its the oppositions job to challenge the Government. As to the vison for Europe do you honestly believe that if a USE were to be proposed that we would not get another referendum, indeed it would require all member states to ratify such a move and no country would do so without the backing of their electorates. So just like Turkey will be joining soon this is more scaremongering that has little substance other than a few eurocrats claiming it is their personal vision.

[solentstars]

Agree but please as an obvious Brexiter what are the policies, where is the evidence that we will be better off out than in. To date all I have read ( and thats quite a lot) is a series of hopeful assertions that all favour the UK and assume the rest of Europe indeed the World will deal with us in the kindest and most welcoming way. I dont buy it.

agree they don,t give any economic arguments and plans how we will do it apart from trust us ,..no thank you i don,t believe their fantasy world rubbish they preach. i prefer to live in the real world as it is. if you put down the pros and cons based on reality the to any right thinking person which way to vote..its no contest.

 

.

[hypochondriac]

Agree but please as an obvious Brexiter what are the policies, where is the evidence that we will be better off out than in. To date all I have read ( and thats quite a lot) is a series of hopeful assertions that all favour the UK and assume the rest of Europe indeed the World will deal with us in the kindest and most welcoming way. I dont buy it.

 

You asked a similar question on here before and here was my reply:

 

The answer is that nobody knows either way to much of it. Negotiations at some point in the future if we voted for brexit would be difficult to predict. It then comes down to opinions and my view is that we will have a strong hand in any negotiations. For me it's the fundamental issue regarding loss of sovereignty which swings it - it's outrageous that unelected officials can overrule or impose laws on us. We have previously been an example to others about how to run a democracy and the system we have now is too difficult to stomach. It's also totally illogical that we cannot predict with any accuracy how many people will be coming into the country every year. It makes it impossible to plan things like the NHS without that basic info.

 

I know you will most likely dismiss these things but an awful lot of people feel the same way.

 

I also see little evidence that if we vote to remain things will stay just as they are now. What will most likely happen is that little by little our sovereignty and power will be eroded until it is the United States of Europe in all but name. I know that many won't care about that but it matters to an awful lot of people.

[hutch]

if you put down the pros and cons based on reality the to any right thinking person which way to vote..its no contest.

If that's correct then you've got nothing to worry about then, eh?

[Lord Duckhunter]

So just like Turkey will be joining soon this is more scaremongering that has little substance other than a few eurocrats claiming it is their personal vision.

 

In 2010 Cameron said he supported Turkeys membership and said he would campaign for it.

 

In 2014 Cameron said the Eu would be stronger with turkey in and would support their membership

 

In 2016 the whole of eu signed a deal with turkey that agreed to "re-energise" Turkey's bid to join the European bloc, with talks due by July.

 

In view of the above , you are talking nonsense .

Edited 19 April, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[Johnny Bognor]

Well little will change in the short term, the current policies, arrangements, agreements and relationships will endure. It is not for the remain campaign to offer alternatives to what they are campaigning for, we know what that is. It is for Brexit to provide a clear and coherent alternative, something they have continually failed to do, they cant even agree on a single campaign, if heaven forbid we vote to leave the infighting will be torturous . Change is only worth doing if you have real evidence that things will improve, Brexit has none and I for one do not believe the risk of leaving is acceptable. You are a prime example of one who continually points us to this problem or that issue with the EU or something you often incorrectly associate with the EU. Not once have you provided any real alternative as to how in the 2016 world we would be better off out than in.

 

Most people talk of a straight 'in' or 'out' scenario. Black and White. **** or Bust.

 

In my opinion, if the 'out' vote wins, we won't be leaving the EU any time soon...

 

Cameron will go back to the EU and say, Angela my people want out, we need to renegotiate. A re-negotiation will take place. I am sure the EU would make some concessions to keep the UK in. Cameron will then come back with a new negotiated membership deal and we will have another refurendum, upon which we will vote to remain.

 

The EU have form on this. Just look what happened with the Irish referendum on the Lisbon treaty. The Irish people rejected it, the EU changed it and got voted through on a second referendum. Look at the threats to Greece to repay their debts. They didn't follow through with them and just keep kicking the can down the road.

 

An 'out' vote could result in a stronger membership negotiating position.

 

 

This is my opinion and is as likely or as unlikely as any of the forecasts for staying or going...

Edited 19 April, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Hockey_saint]

That post sums up how you, and many on the modern day left, view the working class of this country.

 

This one really isn't about being left or right you know?

[Hockey_saint]

Most people talk of a straight 'in' or 'out' scenario. Black and White. **** or Bust.

 

In my opinion, if the 'out' vote wins, we won't be leaving the EU any time soon...

 

Cameron will go back to the EU and say, Angela my people want out, we need to renegotiate. A re-negotiation will take place. I am sure the EU would make some concessions to keep the UK in. Cameron will then come back with a new negotiated membership deal and we will have another refurendum, upon which we will vote to remain.

 

The EU have form on this. Just look what happened with the Irish referendum on the Lisbon treaty. The Irish people rejected it, the EU changed it and got voted through on a second referendum. Look at the threats to Greece to repay their debts. They didn't follow through with them and just keep kicking the can down the road.

 

An 'out' vote could result in a stronger membership negotiating position.

 

 

This is my opinion and is as likely or as unlikely as any of the forecasts for staying or going...

 

They do don't they?....Look at the Irish Lisbon vote.

[Wes Tender]

As to the vison for Europe do you honestly believe that if a USE were to be proposed that we would not get another referendum, indeed it would require all member states to ratify such a move and no country would do so without the backing of their electorates.

 

You're sure about that are you? Just as you would no doubt have assured us that no country would sign up to the Maastricht Treaty, or the Treaties of Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon without consulting with their electorates over the significant changes with the loss of national sovereignty, judicial powers, immigration controls and additional bureaucratic imperatives that they entailed.

[CB Fry]

Most people talk of a straight 'in' or 'out' scenario. Black and White. **** or Bust.

 

In my opinion, if the 'out' vote wins, we won't be leaving the EU any time soon...

 

Cameron will go back to the EU and say, Angela my people want out, we need to renegotiate. A re-negotiation will take place. I am sure the EU would make some concessions to keep the UK in. Cameron will then come back with a new negotiated membership deal and we will have another refurendum, upon which we will vote to remain.

 

The EU have form on this. Just look what happened with the Irish referendum on the Lisbon treaty. The Irish people rejected it, the EU changed it and got voted through on a second referendum. Look at the threats to Greece to repay their debts. They didn't follow through with them and just keep kicking the can down the road.

 

An 'out' vote could result in a stronger membership negotiating position.

 

 

This is my opinion and is as likely or as unlikely as any of the forecasts for staying or going...

Hmm. Maybe. Either way there will be an utter sh it storm if it is marginal either way.

 

A 51% win for either side will be a total world of pain. A 51% win for Out may well trigger a renegotiation rather than a straight exit as you say and a 51% win for In probably will disintegrate the tories as we know them and I think we'd have another referendum within five years.

 

A definitive win either way (in the loosest sense - say 55% which was good enough for Scotland) and that's that. No renegotiation, no second referendum.

[buctootim]

Hmm. Maybe. Either way there will be an utter sh it storm if it is marginal either way.

 

A 51% win for either side will be a total world of pain. A 51% win for Out may well trigger a renegotiation rather than a straight exit as you say and a 51% win for In probably will disintegrate the tories as we know them and I think we'd have another referendum within five years.

 

A definitive win either way (in the loosest sense - say 55% which was good enough for Scotland) and that's that. No renegotiation, no second referendum.

 

I'd like it to be a close vote to stay. That would give impetus to the reform movement within the EU and hobble moves to further integration and expansion. A big vote for stay would encourage business as usual and a big out would be disastrous.

[Hockey_saint]

Hmm. Maybe. Either way there will be an utter sh it storm if it is marginal either way.

 

A 51% win for either side will be a total world of pain. A 51% win for Out may well trigger a renegotiation rather than a straight exit as you say and a 51% win for In probably will disintegrate the tories as we know them and I think we'd have another referendum within five years.

 

A definitive win either way (in the loosest sense - say 55% which was good enough for Scotland) and that's that. No renegotiation, no second referendum.

 

And the EU will do exactly the same as with the Irish and say "they didn't understand the question, they must take it again.....until they give the right answer"...they do have previous for this.

[Wes Tender]

Most people talk of a straight 'in' or 'out' scenario. Black and White. **** or Bust.

 

In my opinion, if the 'out' vote wins, we won't be leaving the EU any time soon...

 

Cameron will go back to the EU and say, Angela my people want out, we need to renegotiate. A re-negotiation will take place. I am sure the EU would make some concessions to keep the UK in. Cameron will then come back with a new negotiated membership deal and we will have another refurendum, upon which we will vote to remain.

 

The EU have form on this. Just look what happened with the Irish referendum on the Lisbon treaty. The Irish people rejected it, the EU changed it and got voted through on a second referendum. Look at the threats to Greece to repay their debts. They didn't follow through with them and just keep kicking the can down the road.

 

An 'out' vote could result in a stronger membership negotiating position.

 

 

This is my opinion and is as likely or as unlikely as any of the forecasts for staying or going...

 

I agree with you and a Brexit vote with subsequent renegotiation on serious reforms is a position that I would support and I suspect that a majority of the electorate would too. However, this situation when proposed by Boris was knocked into the long grass by Dave, so isn't really a viable option, as Dave never breaks promises, does he? And even if he did go back to Angela with this strong bargaining hand with which to renegotiate our continued membership, he has form in claiming that little sops to appease him are great negotiating triumphs, so I don't hold my breath that much would change. But as others have indicated, some of the electorate are gullible to swallow this sort of guff, so it might only take a swing of a few percent to produce the majority in a re-vote to remain in, regardless.

[Orange]

That post sums up how you, and many on the modern day left, view the working class of this country.

 

Everyone now and then then their contempt for traditional working class people slips out..

 

In their view one day everyone will be 'educated' into coming round to their world view.

[CB Fry]

I'd like it to be a close vote to stay. That would give impetus to the reform movement within the EU and hobble moves to further integration and expansion. A big vote for stay would encourage business as usual and a big out would be disastrous.

I'd agree with that. A narrow win for In might well be the best path. I fear a big vote for stay seems unlikely anyway now.