EU referendum

[buctootim]

All governments since WW2 have been keen on immigration - its an easy way to 1. get headline GDP growth (no-one looks at GDP per capita) 2. increase the working age population to support a growing retired population 3. ensure a supply of cheap labour to keep companies happy and onside. Its much easier than vote losing difficult policies like removing child related benefits, making people work longer before they retire and explaining why the economy is stagnating.

[hutch]

its an easy way to 1. get headline GDP growth (no-one looks at GDP per capita)

 

Except you, of course. You like to bang on about it regularly.

 

I'm sure the reason nobody wants to look at it is because it shows that Switzerland and Norway, those poor European countries that are being driven to their knees by the EU behemoth, are, along with Luxemburg, the only European countries in the global top ten.

 

I certainly don't want to join them as one of the richest countries in the world.

[Whitey Grandad]

Except you, of course. You like to bang on about it regularly.

 

I'm sure the reason nobody wants to look at it is because it shows that Switzerland and Norway, those poor European countries that are being driven to their knees by the EU behemoth, are, along with Luxemburg, the only European countries in the global top ten.

 

I certainly don't want to join them as one of the richest countries in the world.

 

Small populations with enormous natural resources distort the comparisons.

 

In Switzerland's case not being bankrupted by wars helped a lot.

[CB Fry]

Except you, of course. You like to bang on about it regularly.

 

I'm sure the reason nobody wants to look at it is because it shows that Switzerland and Norway, those poor European countries that are being driven to their knees by the EU behemoth, are, along with Luxemburg, the only European countries in the global top ten.

 

I certainly don't want to join them as one of the richest countries in the world.

 

How sweet.

[Verbal]

Except you, of course. You like to bang on about it regularly.

 

I'm sure the reason nobody wants to look at it is because it shows that Switzerland and Norway, those poor European countries that are being driven to their knees by the EU behemoth, are, along with Luxemburg, the only European countries in the global top ten.

 

I certainly don't want to join them as one of the richest countries in the world.

 

No, you're right. We should look at the data for per-capita GDP.

 

The World Banks's top ten, based on actual data 20111-14, are (from high to low):

 

Qatar

Macau

Luxembourg

Singapore

Kuwait

Brunei

United Arab Emirates

Norway

Switzerland

Hong Kong

 

Which of those low-population tax havens, oppressive potentates and economies sitting on globally vast oil and gas reserves do you think Brexit Britain should now be?

 

Yesterday it was Canada - I just wonder what name will be pulled out of the hat by desperate Brexiters today.

[hutch]

No, you're right. We should look at the data for per-capita GDP.

 

The World Banks's top ten, based on actual data 20111-14, are (from high to low):

 

Qatar

Macau

Luxembourg

Singapore

Kuwait

Brunei

United Arab Emirates

Norway

Switzerland

Hong Kong

 

Which of those low-population tax havens, oppressive potentates and economies sitting on globally vast oil and gas reserves do you think Brexit Britain should now be?

 

Yesterday it was Canada - I just wonder what name will be pulled out of the hat by desperate Brexiters today.

 

You're missing the point. Not for the first time. I don't think we should be looking at any GDP figures. They're just more dodgy statistics to me, and they aren't going to sway the result of the referendum one way or the other.

[Verbal]

You're missing the point. Not for the first time. I don't think we should be looking at any GDP figures. They're just more dodgy statistics to me, and they aren't going to sway the result of the referendum one way or the other.

 

I've addressed your 'dodgy statistics' point. It's cretinous - an argument for being ignorant.

[buctootim]

I don't think we should be looking at any GDP figures. They're just more dodgy statistics to me

 

There are a lot of clever, informed right wingers who have reasoned views. You aren't among them. At all. Or on a nearby continent.

[buctootim]

Or 23rd based on purchasing power parity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

[hutch]

I've addressed your 'dodgy statistics' point. It's cretinous - an argument for being ignorant.

 

I'll add those to idiot and half wit then.

[hutch]

There are a lot of clever, informed right wingers who have reasoned views. You aren't among them. At all. Or on a nearby continent.

 

Where did I claim that have an informed opinion? I readily admit I don't know what will happen, in or out. What amazes me is that there are people that claim they do.

[buctootim]

Where did I claim that have an informed opinion? I readily admit I don't know what will happen, in or out. What amazes me is that there are people that claim they do.

 

I dont know what will happen either - but your opinion should at least be based on something substantive. You give the impression of someone whose opinion is based on what fits most comfortably with you and are damned if you're going to have it shaped or nuanced by facts or stats. To read and consider the same information and came to a different and rational conclusion is one thing - to put your fingers in your ears and say its all spin / lies / wrong / guesses etc etc is another. Its that wilful denial of reality that is weird.

[hutch]

Why is it wierd? Because it's a different approach to yours?

 

It's pretty academic because I'm fairly sure the stayers will win anyway, although it will be a lot closer than most people think.

 

But I'm certainly not afraid of a future outside the EU.

[derry]

Between December and January we exported £10.9 billion to the EU. We imported £18.9 billion in the same period. A deficit of £8 billion in January and £23 billion in the three months before - ONS statistics. Pretty good evidence that In 2006 we imported 62.5% from the EU, last year 47% and decreasing. In January alone imports increased by £700 million. It is the largest deficit with the EU since records began in 1998. Who needs who more?

Edited 12 March, 2016 by derry

[derry]

I have noticed that most of the banks, academics, universities and firms etc supporting remain are in receipt of contracts, consultancies, grants for research etc from the EU requiring them to support the EU. Nothing wrong in that, but it would be nice if they declared their pecuniary interest because as it becomes widely known it will degrade their influence on voters.

[hutch]

I smell panic in some of the posts on here as well.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I have noticed that most of the banks, academics, universities and firms etc supporting remain are in receipt of contracts, consultancies, grants for research etc from the EU requiring them to support the EU. Nothing wrong in that, but it would be nice if they declared their pecuniary interest because as it becomes widely known it will degrade their influence on voters.

 

Big multinationals benefit from the red tape and bureaucracy because they can absorb the costs better than their smaller rivals. As for academics and universities they benefit most from grants so obviously will be keen for us to stay in.

[Wes Tender]

I smell panic in some of the posts on here as well.

 

The remain camp have been resorting to lots of puerile name-calling of late and those who support Brexit are swivel-eyed loonies, half-witted, etc.

 

All we need now is a categoric assurance from Verbal that we needn't worry our little UKIPy heads, that there is no way that we will vote to leave, and I will begin to feel that there could be a good chance that we just might.

[Verbal]

The desperation of the Brexit camp deepens - it looks like Gove is on his way to political oblivion after all but admitting he was a source for the Sun's front page alleging Her Maj made her pro-Brexit views known. The denial has come from the Queen herself, and the palace has made a formal complaint about the story.

 

So who to believe: the Queen or Gove? Any answers, 'kippers?

[Wes Tender]

The desperation of the Brexit camp deepens - it looks like Gove is on his way to political oblivion after all but admitting he was a source for the Sun's front page alleging Her Maj made her pro-Brexit views known. The denial has come from the Queen herself, and the palace has made a formal complaint about the story.

 

So who to believe: the Queen or Gove? Any answers, 'kippers?

 

Well, nobody should believe you, the way that you go about constructing half-truths. "all but admitting" = admitting in your world. Furthermore, the denial came not from the Queen, but from a spokesman for the Royal Family, which declared that the Queen was politically neutral as she had always been. The spokesman was speaking on the condition of anonymity under palace rules, so that seems also to be the position of the source of the story too.

 

But just to equal things up, here is a story in the press claiming three years ago that the Queen was a Europhile also based on comments made by her with a subsequently statement from the Palace that she was politically neutral. One can see how these misunderstandings come about, can't one?

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/586842/Buckingham-Palace-denies-Queen-intervened-EU-referendum-Berlin-speech

 

And just to correct another misapprehension of yours, not all of those who support Brexit are UKIPers. The majority of Conservative Branch chairmen support Brexit, as well as many at Ministerial level past and present and also a substantial number of their equivalent Labour opposite numbers. The support among the electorate is similarly right across party lines, so it is a bit futile attempting to portray those supporting Brexit as UKIPers.

 

Are you finally going to admit that you have already made up your mind that you're in the Remain camp? Nothing you have ever posted in this debate suggests that there has ever been any substance to your claim to not having decided which way to vote.

[Wade Garrett]

I've always voted Labour (probably won't again for a while) and am voting out.

 

I think this particular issue transcends party politics.

[LGTL]

I've always voted Labour (probably won't again for a while) and am voting out.

 

I think this particular issue transcends party politics.

 

I've also always voted Labour (also won't be while Corbyn is in charge) and will be voting to stay in.

[Whitey Grandad]

I've always voted Labour (probably won't again for a while) and am voting out.

 

I think this particular issue transcends party politics.

 

And so it should.

[Fatboy40]

... The support among the electorate is similarly right across party lines...

 

This is really a thread that I don't want to get drawn into but I thought that to aid clarity I'd reply to just this specific piece of text.

 

I'm Conservative with a 'c', my wife is Labour with a small 'l', and we both want Brexit, so as Wes said don't assume anything.

[Wes Tender]

The remain brigade on here have sneered at some of the personalities who have come out in support of Brexit and my day has been considerably brightened when I heard that Jeremy Clarkson has come out in support of our remaining in the EU. I loved reading all the comments from the lefties who hate Clarkson with a vengeance.

 

He wants a United States of Europe with one army and one currency. He can't quite commit himself to wanting one car model though.

 

It could be that his position is a front to disguise his worry that BMWs, Mercs, Alfa Romeos etc would have import trade tariffs placed on them if we left, but surely he realises that that would never happen given the political influence wielded by the big corporations who have us as one of their largest export markets.

 

Also he needs to accept that this single currency will be the Euro and not the Pound and that if there was a single army, they would probably be buying German, French or Italian military vehicles instead of our British ones. And how would he feel about an Italian Commander-in-chief of the forces?

[Johnny Bognor]

if there was a single army, they would probably be buying German, French or Italian military vehicles instead of our British ones.

 

French military vehicles cost a lot less as their gearboxes only have one gear.

[Wes Tender]

French military vehicles cost a lot less as their gearboxes only have one gear.

 

Is it reverse, like the Italian ones? :lol:

[Johnny Bognor]

Is it reverse, like the Italian ones? :lol:

 

Hahaha. Almost. The French gear is "surrender".

 

When engaged, a white flag appears from the top of the turret. It is one of two moving parts on the whole tank. The other being the hatch to get in and out of it when the flag needs cleaning. The French military endorse Ariel automatic to get those whites, whiter than white.

[hutch]

The Italian is the one with dual controls, LHD & RHD, making it easier to swap over sides at the drop of a hat.

[badgerx16]

Hahaha. Almost. The French gear is "surrender".

 

When engaged, a white flag appears from the top of the turret. It is one of two moving parts on the whole tank. The other being the hatch to get in and out of it when the flag needs cleaning. The French military endorse Ariel automatic to get those whites, whiter than white.

 

Makes me wonder how Napoleon got as far as Moscow.

[derry]

Makes me wonder how Napoleon got as far as Moscow.

 

I don't think too many got back though.

[Wes Tender]

Another former political heavyweight joins the Brexit campaign.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/ann-widdecombe/652956/Why-I-back-Brexit-Ann-Widdecombe

 

As she says, if the EU were not prepared to negotiate reforms on the threat of us calling a referendum, they are hardly going to accede any concessions if we vote to stay in and would see a stay decision as an acceptance of more interference in our affairs and a vote for further integration towards a United States of Europe. Therefore for those of us who do not wish to go any further down that road, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to decide the future on behalf of the next generations

[buctootim]

Another fruitloop joins the Brexit campaign.

 

Are these the Harlem Globetrotters All Stars? A retired ex junior minister who never even made it to the cabinet? Anne Widdecombe's biggest achievement was to help destroy the odious Michael Howard, for which she would have gained more respect had she done it before he sacked her and not after.

[Wes Tender]

Are these the Harlem Globetrotters All Stars? A retired ex junior minister who never even made it to the cabinet? Anne Widdecombe's biggest achievement was to help destroy the odious Michael Howard, for which she would have gained more respect had she done it before he sacked her and not after.

 

Not a very charitable response, Timmy. But you disagree with what she says, do you? Yes, of course you do. She would have been fine when she hadn't made up her mind, but now she is a fruitloop like anybody else who wants to leave your beloved EU.

[hutch]

Anne Widdecombe's biggest achievement was to help destroy the odious Michael Howard

That must have been a sight to see. Never watched Strictly myself, not my cup of tea.

[CB Fry]

Not a very charitable response, Timmy. But you disagree with what she says, do you? Yes, of course you do. She would have been fine when she hadn't made up her mind, but now she is a fruitloop like anybody else who wants to leave your beloved EU.

 

I'd hazard a tiny guess that Buctootim would not consider Anne Widdecombe "fine" in any circumstance.

 

You're the one who has brought her into this thread because she has come out on your side, if she had released a frothing rhetoric for a the stay campaign you wouldn't be so keen would you?

 

Even at the height of her career she was a political pygmy. Much like Kate Hoey who the out campaign, and our very own Lord Duckhunter, are now swooning over her as a collosus of Labour entirely driven by the side she's picked, ignoring the fact she is and was an utter non-entity.

 

So nice line of argument Wes but I think it is the Out campaign displaying that behaviour infinitely more than the In side.

Edited 17 March, 2016 by CB Fry

[Wes Tender]

I'd hazard a tiny guess that Buctootim would not consider Anne Widdecombe "fine" in any circumstance.

 

You're the one who has brought her into this thread because she has come out on your side, if she had released a frothing rhetoric for a the stay campaign you wouldn't be so keen would you?

 

Even at the height of her career she was a political pygmy. Much like Kate Hoey who the out campaign, and our very own Lord Duckhunter, are now swooning over her as a collosus of Labour entirely driven by the side she's picked, ignoring the fact she is and was an utter non-entity.

 

So nice line of argument Wes but I think it is the Out campaign displaying that behaviour infinitely more than the In side.

 

I'm glad that you consider the line of argument as being nice, as that is what it is all about. There has been too much dismissal of the personalities on the Brexit side, rather than any attempt to argue against what they say. On here, it is the in brigade who are far more likely to display the petty insults, calling the out supporters swivel-eyed loonies and such like. Whereas the likes of Kate Hoey, Frank Field and indeed Anne Widdicombe never reached the top of the greasy pole, that doesn't mean that they weren't often more sensible, more intelligent, or more rational than many who did. Regardless of whether you consider the likes of them to be political pygmies, there are very many who have respect for their opinions because they have always talked a lot of sense on many of the issues that strike a chord with the electorate.

[badgerx16]

Anne Widdicombe described by one side as a 'heavyweight' and the other as a 'pygmy'. Things are getting personal.

[buctootim]

Anne Widdicombe described by one side as a 'heavyweight' and the other as a 'pygmy'. Things are getting personal.

 

I think we can all agree she is a heavy weight pygmy.

[Verbal]

I'm glad that you consider the line of argument as being nice, as that is what it is all about. There has been too much dismissal of the personalities on the Brexit side, rather than any attempt to argue against what they say. On here, it is the in brigade who are far more likely to display the petty insults, calling the out supporters swivel-eyed loonies and such like. Whereas the likes of Kate Hoey, Frank Field and indeed Anne Widdicombe never reached the top of the greasy pole, that doesn't mean that they weren't often more sensible, more intelligent, or more rational than many who did. Regardless of whether you consider the likes of them to be political pygmies, there are very many who have respect for their opinions because they have always talked a lot of sense on many of the issues that strike a chord with the electorate.

 

Nigel Farage, David Icke, Nick Griffin, Iain Duncan Smith. You've forgotten "the likes" of them.

[buctootim]

There has been too much dismissal of the personalities on the Brexit side, rather than any attempt to argue against what they say..... Whereas the likes of Kate Hoey, Frank Field and indeed Anne Widdicombe never reached the top of the greasy pole, that doesn't mean that they weren't often more sensible, more intelligent, or more rational than many who did.

 

The problem comes back again to the fundamental problem of a vision for Britain outside of the EU. If there was a properly thought through plan, or at least options put forward by a think tank and verified by one of the big accounting firms then the issue of personalities wouldnt be so important. If there were widespread backing from industry, or other countries it wouldnt be so important. In the absence of any 'product' to examine people naturally look instead at the quality, credibility and trustworthiness of the people doing the selling - and its not impressive.

 

The out campaign is mainly lead by mavericks and outliers - people who mostly have never really succeeded in mainstream politics. They have nothing in common with each other apart from being eurosceptic.

Edited 17 March, 2016 by buctootim

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Well this member of the electorate would find the task of displaying any great level of "respect" for the likes of George Galloway, NIgel Farge or Bill Cash to be a somewhat problematic matter. Indeed, any campaign led by politicians of that calibre risks appearing to be on the lunatic fringe of British politics. Boris Johnson on the other hand may represent a more acceptable figurehead to the British public. But here too, for all his popularity and obvious entrtainment value, I'd hesitate before describing Boris as a deep political thinker or a statesman of real substanse. Indeed, his (rather late) conversion to the Britex cause smacks of rank opportunism methinks.

 

Set against that rather motley crew in the Britex camp, and their many friends in the press, we see virtually all this nation's leading politicians, from the Prime Minister on downwards, and the vast majority of the heads of British industry too (according to a recent CBI survey) recommending that we remain in the EU. So this question may come down to who the British public trust most - those populist voices that are playing on fears of immigration and old school nationlism, or those on the other side of the argument who warn of the consequences of getting this discision wrong.

 

It seems to this observer of the argument that ultimatly the Britex case amounts to little more than a "leap of faith" in that voters are being asked to accept that a better future awaits this nation outside of the EU without any real evidence being provided to support that claim. At my age leaps of all kinds are becoming increasingly painfull experiences, so this voter has decided to keep his feet firmly planted on solid ground in the coming referendum.

[Batman]

Well this member of the electorate would find the task of displaying any great level of "respect" for the likes of George Galloway, NIgel Farge or Bill Cash to be a somewhat problematic matter. Indeed, any campaign led by politicians of that calibre risks appearing to be on the lunatic fringe of British politics. Boris Johnson on the other hand may represent a more acceptable figurehead to the British public. But here too, for all his popularity and obvious entrtainment value, I'd hesitate before describing Boris as a deep political thinker or a statesman of real substanse. Indeed, his (rather late) conversion to the Britex cause smacks of rank opportunism methinks.

 

Set against that rather motley crew in the Britex camp, and their many friends in the press, we see virtually all this nation's leading politicians, from the Prime Minister on downwards, and the vast majority of the heads of British industry too (according to a recent CBI survey) recommending that we remain in the EU. So this question may come down to who the British public trust most - those populist voices that are playing on fears of immigration and old school nationlism, or those on the other side of the argument who warn of the consequences of getting this discision wrong.

 

It seems to this observer of the argument that ultimatly the Britex case amounts to little more than a "leap of faith" in that voters are being asked to accept that a better future awaits this nation outside of the EU without any real evidence being provided to support that claim. At my age leaps of all kinds are becoming increasingly painfull experiences, so this voter has decided to keep his feet firmly planted on solid ground in the coming referendum.

In for you then.

[hutch]

Seems Cameron and Osborne are picking up a lot of new fans. On this forum at least.

[Verbal]

Seems Cameron and Osborne are picking up a lot of new fans. On this forum at least.

 

Cameron and Osborne are despicable politicians in many respects. They are not, though, the out and out freaking loons who dominate the Brexit campaign. I'm not assuming that you support those loons (although it's likely you're far to the right of them), just that the prominence of such loons should give any reasonable voter pause for thought.

 

So when can we expect an economically informed argument from the Brexiters on here? Tick tock...

[aintforever]

So this question may come down to who the British public trust most - those populist voices that are playing on fears of immigration and old school nationlism, or those on the other side of the argument who warn of the consequences of getting this discision wrong.

 

Or you could trust none of them and just make up your own mind.

[Sour Mash]

People voting depending on who is involved in each campaign is utterly bizarre, nearly as bad as those like Buctootim and Verbal basing their decisions on the posts on this forum

 

Of course, both have told us in the past they're undecided on the subject anyway

[moonraker]

People voting depending on who is involved in each campaign is utterly bizarre, nearly as bad as those like Buctootim and Verbal basing their decisions on the posts on this forum

 

Of course, both have told us in the past they're undecided on the subject anyway

 

Why is it bizarre, political campaigns have long been dominated by personalities, people vote for a cocktail of reasons; natural political leaning, specific issues, trust in individuals, least worst option, least impact on the individual etc. not bizarre just normal, what I find bizarre is people advocating we should vote to leave based on “We have no idea how it will work but we think most things will stay the same, except something will change in our favour because, erm we have to believe that otherwise, erm……….”.

[Batman]

Why is it bizarre, political campaigns have long been dominated by personalities, people vote for a cocktail of reasons; natural political leaning, specific issues, trust in individuals, least worst option, least impact on the individual etc. not bizarre just normal, what I find bizarre is people advocating we should vote to leave based on “We have no idea how it will work but we think most things will stay the same, except something will change in our favour because, erm we have to believe that otherwise, erm……….”.

 

but staying will be nothing but the same?

staying or leaving is going to be a massive leap in the dark with the ever morphing EU and the rise of right-wingers across the continent and the ever closer union with Turkey

[Lord Duckhunter]

but staying will be nothing but the same?

staying or leaving is going to be a massive leap in the dark with the ever morphing EU and the rise of right-wingers across the continent and the ever closer union with Turkey

 

Correct . Look at the difference between the EEC and the EU . Nobody knows what the EU will look like in future .