Sour Mash Posted 28 November, 2015 Share Posted 28 November, 2015 That's true, if he has to he will use them. But if he isn't forced he probably won't. He said this in the press conference yesterday as well. Got to be said that we would have to have a serious injury crisis to mean going outside the current first team squad, which I make at least 23 not counting the wounded. Still unenlightened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 28 November, 2015 Share Posted 28 November, 2015 CB Fry can't argue or even debate, he can only sneer. The bravest man the biggest cyber warrior on this forum don't you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 28 November, 2015 Share Posted 28 November, 2015 Still unenlightened. Still not deluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 28 November, 2015 Share Posted 28 November, 2015 CB Fry can't argue or even debate, he can only sneer. The bravest man the biggest cyber warrior on this forum don't you know I'm still waiting to see a list if all the young players that Pochettino supposedly blooded, and then an explanation of how has demonstrated being more keen to blood youngsters than Koeman. Pochettino "blooded" Chambers and absolutely no one else of consequence, I've yet to see any evidence of otherwise. You like to elevate some players to messiah status based on hope rather than actuality, a troubling position for a club historian. Pretty safe to say if Sam Gallagher was called Samir Gallagic you'd be slagging him off just like you do with our other foreign players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 28 November, 2015 Share Posted 28 November, 2015 Factual-based evidence. There is no basis on which anyone with any brains could disagree, since no Academy players have been blooded, indeed only one is even remotely close (having made the bench but been unused - Seager). JWP is now in his fourth season as part of the first team squad and has played over 100 times, his appearances are no longer part of "blooding youngsters". Targett was blooded last season. Reed was blooded by Poch, and seems to be nowhere near the first team now seldom making the matchday squad. Even Seager actually made his debut last season. You just need to look at the videos of training, there are no others even being considered at the moment. Now enlighten me how I am wrong. Absolutely! I agree with every word. These things go in phases and just now, there is no-one from U21's who is anywhere near threatening a place in the first team line-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 28 November, 2015 Share Posted 28 November, 2015 Still not deluded. Who are all the youngsters MP blooded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 28 November, 2015 Share Posted 28 November, 2015 I'm still waiting to see a list if all the young players that Pochettino supposedly blooded, and then an explanation of how has demonstrated being more keen to blood youngsters than Koeman. Pochettino "blooded" Chambers and absolutely no one else of consequence, I've yet to see any evidence of otherwise. You like to elevate some players to messiah status based on hope rather than actuality, a troubling position for a club historian. Pretty safe to say if Sam Gallagher was called Samir Gallagic you'd be slagging him off just like you do with our other foreign players. Don't be daft! For a minute there I thought you might actually get through a post without resorting to unpleasant jibes but alas I was to be disappointed. FWIW I haven't really been following the Poch/Koeman debate but was merely pointing out that Pochetino did seem to have faith in Sam Gallagher and was prepared to use him, even if it was mainly from the bench. I gather the view of several of the U21s currently at SMS is that they were more likely to get a chance under MP than they are under RK. Personally I think MP was more inclined to risk using the youth but I accept that could be because the youth he had available to him was of a higher quality. It's a debate nothing less nothing more so there really is no need to get personal every time you reply surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 28 November, 2015 Share Posted 28 November, 2015 (edited) Personally I think MP was more inclined to risk using the youth but I accept that could be because the youth he had available to him was of a higher quality. I don't disagree Duncan....BUT IMHO whoever produces the history of The Pochettino Phenomena really ought to check the facts before they start to write. We should put aside the last part of Poch's 8 game first Prem. season. as he continued to play the Adkins start side,and (it should be noted that Adkins had already introduced young players like; Reeves, Hoskins and Isgrove in our Championship season, as well as using Chambers, Isgrove and Shaw in various Cup games before. The early season introduction of Calum Chambers was forced upon him, when Clyne was injured pre-season and Danny Butterfield had already departed the club. It was ideal for Chambers who had previously found it difficult to tie down a regular midfield spot in the U21's,and his later move to Arsenal was a win-win situation. Luke Shaw had made 13 match starts(under Adkins) - before Poch.appeared, and his form was such that choosing him ahead of Danny Fox was a no-brainer. The appearance of Jake Sinclair, Oscar Rowe and Harrison Reed on the bench was (by tradition) only in cup matches, but with the resulting loss at Sunderland was considered by many to be a Grade A1 c*ck-up. Rarely were any of these lads on the bench and only Reed and Gallagher made even one more regular start. Sam Gallagher had game time, but the most of those as a sub. and then only because of Rickie Lambert rare injuries and later in the trail of the incredibly-expensive Osvaldo fiasco, and the later catastrophic injury to JayRod, and Sam played out the last 3 Prem. games, but without scoring. Poch's up-tempo style drew a lot more attention when we gate-crashed the Prem's top 10, but it has to be said that the later rash of international debuts was as much to do with the overall team performances than the individuals themselves. Rickie Lambert's short, but memorable, England career was straight out of a Hollywood script, and Lallana and Rodrigues qualified themselves in after a concerted spell of excellent games which coincided with a drought of talent in the England squad. For the media hack who wrote that Poch had been responsible for creating all these new international careers is nonsense, as that was Roy Hodgson initiative, who by selecting them in the first place - side-stepped any possible media criticism by selecting them in the first place - thereby allowing the same media to degrade their poorer performances when they failed to live upto expectations. The latest successes (at Spurs) have only furthered Poch's reputation but some may view the fact that the successes of Kane and Mason (at Spurs) was a last gasp effort to re-vitalise a very ordinary Spurs' side that he inherited that was over-populated by a poor squad bought with the inheritance they got from the Bale transfer. Fortunately for Poch - it worked, but getting back to the OP...it should be noted that both Mason and Kane had extensive loan experience before they could force their way into the reckoning. (Kane 56 games and 14 goals with 4 clubs, (plus) 34 games for Eng U17-U21, and Mason had 5 loanouts totalling over 70 apps). Whoever it is; Reed, Seager, Gallagher or Gape.....it will be hard for them to break into the first team squad without game-time at "another level "...even L1., unless. as in the past, they are brought in to play in emergencies sitautions and suddenly make it.... " big time ". Edited 28 November, 2015 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 28 November, 2015 Share Posted 28 November, 2015 I don't disagree Duncan....BUT IMHO whoever produces the history of The Pochettino Phenomena really ought to check the facts before they start to write. We should put aside the last part of Poch's 8 game first Prem. season. as he continued to play the Adkins start side,and (it should be noted that Adkins had already introduced young players like; Reeves, Hoskins and Isgrove in our Championship season, as well as using Chambers, Isgrove and Shaw in various Cup games before. The early season introduction of Calum Chambers was forced upon him, when Clyne was injured pre-season and Danny Butterfield had already departed the club. It was ideal for Chambers who had previously found it difficult to tie down a regular midfield spot in the U21's,and his later move to Arsenal was a win-win situation. Luke Shaw had made 13 match starts(under Adkins) - before Poch.appeared, and his form was such that choosing him ahead of Danny Fox was a no-brainer. The appearance of Jake Sinclair, Oscar Rowe and Harrison Reed on the bench was (by tradition) only in cup matches, but with the resulting loss at Sunderland was considered by many to be a Grade A1 c*ck-up. Rarely were any of these lads on the bench and only Reed and Gallagher made even one more regular start. Sam Gallagher had game time, but the most of those as a sub. and then only because of Rickie Lambert rare injuries and later in the trail of the incredibly-expensive Osvaldo fiasco, and the later catastrophic injury to JayRod, and Sam played out the last 3 Prem. games, but without scoring. Poch's up-tempo style drew a lot more attention when we gate-crashed the Prem's top 10, but it has to be said that the later rash of international debuts was as much to do with the overall team performances than the individuals themselves. Rickie Lambert's short, but memorable, England career was straight out of a Hollywood script, and Lallana and Rodrigues qualified themselves in after a concerted spell of excellent games which coincided with a drought of talent in the England squad. For the media hack who wrote that Poch had been responsible for creating all these new international careers is nonsense, as that was Roy Hodgson initiative, who by selecting them in the first place - side-stepped any possible media criticism by selecting them in the first place - thereby allowing the same media to degrade their poorer performances when they failed to live upto expectations. The latest successes (at Spurs) have only furthered Poch's reputation but some may view the fact that the successes of Kane and Mason (at Spurs) was a last gasp effort to re-vitalise a very ordinary Spurs' side that he inherited that was over-populated by a poor squad bought with the inheritance they got from the Bale transfer. Fortunately for Poch - it worked, but getting back to the OP...it should be noted that both Mason and Kane had extensive loan experience before they could force their way into the reckoning. (Kane 56 games and 14 goals with 4 clubs, (plus) 34 games for Eng U17-U21, and Mason had 5 loanouts totalling over 70 apps). Whoever it is; Reed, Seager, Gallagher or Gape.....it will be hard for them to break into the first team squad without game-time at "another level "...even L1., unless. as in the past, they are brought in to play in emergencies sitautions and suddenly make it.... " big time ". Perfect analysis David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Perfect analysis David. Thanks for the compliment CB.... I knew there must be some things we agreed on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 I don't disagree Duncan....BUT IMHO whoever produces the history of The Pochettino Phenomena really ought to check the facts before they start to write. We should put aside the last part of Poch's 8 game first Prem. season. as he continued to play the Adkins start side,and (it should be noted that Adkins had already introduced young players like; Reeves, Hoskins and Isgrove in our Championship season, as well as using Chambers, Isgrove and Shaw in various Cup games before. David, you really need to check facts as well. Firstly Pochettino was in charge for 16 PL games in 2012/13 not 8, you cannot just disregard this period it was nearly half of the season. Technically Chambers was blooded by Nige, he played 6 minutes as a sub in the 2nd round of the League Cup. That was all, he was not played in various other competitions. Poch did not use him other than an used sub at the end of the season, but brought him through as a regular in 2013/4. Sam McQueen made his debut under Poch, and has rarely been close since Sam Gallagher debuted under adkins and played 66 minutes in 6 appearances, but appeared in 14 of the 16 PL games after the change of management in 2013. Harry Reed came through under Ronald last season, 9 appearances in the PL, but apart for 2 appearances in the Europa (18 minutes total) is now further away from the first team than he was. Matt Targett made his debut last season under Koeman and [played the start of this of course until Bertrand was fit. Jason McCarthy played 90 minutes in the FA Cup last season, but has been shipped out on loan this. Jake Hesketh played 52 minutes under Ron last season before his knee injury. Ryan Seager played 1 minute in the PL and 18 in the FA Cup last season, looks the closest to being included in the team, has at least made the bench this season. You cannot get away from the fact that under Pochettino we played more young players (Shaw, Chambers, JWP, Clyne, JRod, Morgan, Lallana, dare I say even Gazza), some were brought in by him, some weren't. A few were given brief debuts last season by Ron and Harry Reed and Targett are now regular members of the first team squad, though seldom now on the bench. This season, there is no evidence that any of our young players are even in consideration for the first team under Ronald. Only Seager is remotely close. The average age of our (outfield) team is significantly older than 2 years ago and there are no young (under 21 players) now in our team. The way we are working now is that we bring in players from Europe or elsewhere rather than trusting in our youth players coming through - Cedric, Martina (is he youngish I haven't checked?), Juanmi, Caulker and there is little prospect for our Academy players to be promoted. Whether or not they are good enough of course is another matter. Jack Stephens is now effectively 6th choice centre back and Jordan Turnbull 7th. Even the much-heralded JWP is now no longer a regular in the starting XI since we brought in Clasie and Romeu to fill the boots of Morgan. I don't have an axe to grind, and not sure I believe one way or the other is better, but it does irritate me when people with an agenda (not you David) try to rewrite history to make out that one manager that they don't like and was brought in under the previous regime was not better in some way than our current manager. I like Ron, and I think Poch is a **** but try to be objective and recognise that things were different (better) in some regards. Poch continues to demonstrate his faith in young players at Spuds, its irrelevant whether it was him that actually gave these players their debut, its the fact that he has developed them and plays them regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 So, no-one has been able to provide evidence or an argument for MP giving young players more of a chance than Koeman. Probably didn't need 2 pages to work that out though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 (edited) David, you really need to check facts as well. Firstly Pochettino was in charge for 16 PL games in 2012/13 not 8, you cannot just disregard this period it was nearly half of the season. Technically Chambers was blooded by Nige, he played 6 minutes as a sub in the 2nd round of the League Cup. That was all, he was not played in various other competitions. Poch did not use him other than an used sub at the end of the season, but brought him through as a regular in 2013/4. Sam McQueen made his debut under Poch, and has rarely been close since Sam Gallagher debuted under adkins and played 66 minutes in 6 appearances, but appeared in 14 of the 16 PL games after the change of management in 2013. Harry Reed came through under Ronald last season, 9 appearances in the PL, but apart for 2 appearances in the Europa (18 minutes total) is now further away from the first team than he was. Matt Targett made his debut last season under Koeman and [played the start of this of course until Bertrand was fit. Jason McCarthy played 90 minutes in the FA Cup last season, but has been shipped out on loan this. Jake Hesketh played 52 minutes under Ron last season before his knee injury. Ryan Seager played 1 minute in the PL and 18 in the FA Cup last season, looks the closest to being included in the team, has at least made the bench this season. You cannot get away from the fact that under Pochettino we played more young players (Shaw, Chambers, JWP, Clyne, JRod, Morgan, Lallana, dare I say even Gazza), some were brought in by him, some weren't. A few were given brief debuts last season by Ron and Harry Reed and Targett are now regular members of the first team squad, though seldom now on the bench. This season, there is no evidence that any of our young players are even in consideration for the first team under Ronald. Only Seager is remotely close. The average age of our (outfield) team is significantly older than 2 years ago and there are no young (under 21 players) now in our team. The way we are working now is that we bring in players from Europe or elsewhere rather than trusting in our youth players coming through - Cedric, Martina (is he youngish I haven't checked?), Juanmi, Caulker and there is little prospect for our Academy players to be promoted. Whether or not they are good enough of course is another matter. Jack Stephens is now effectively 6th choice centre back and Jordan Turnbull 7th. Even the much-heralded JWP is now no longer a regular in the starting XI since we brought in Clasie and Romeu to fill the boots of Morgan. I don't have an axe to grind, and not sure I believe one way or the other is better, but it does irritate me when people with an agenda (not you David) try to rewrite history to make out that one manager that they don't like and was brought in under the previous regime was not better in some way than our current manager. I like Ron, and I think Poch is a **** but try to be objective and recognise that things were different (better) in some regards. Poch continues to demonstrate his faith in young players at Spuds, its irrelevant whether it was him that actually gave these players their debut, its the fact that he has developed them and plays them regularly. So when Pochettino was manager you define young players as Morgan, Jay Rod and Lallana at twenty four ish, but now Pochettino isn't manager anymore, young players you now define as under twenty one and we're "significantly older" with the likes of Cedric, Clasie and Virgil who are washed up decrepit has-beens at twenty four ish. These people with agendas and axes to grind, eh? They'll say anything. Edited 29 November, 2015 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Both RK and MP are fine managers but if I had to chose I would go for Pochettino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Both RK and MP are fine managers but if I had to chose I would go for Pochettino Despite us achieving more under Koeman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Both RK and MP are fine managers but if I had to chose I would go for Pochettino Agree - MP got the best out of a numerous players - in the process, adding to their market value. Had he been part of the transfer committee that reinvested the money or worked with the same players as Koeman (ones he inherited from that windfall), think he would have got more out of them than Koeman has done (as way of a true comparator, though obviously an experiment that's impossible to run). At the same time, think MP's structure is more sustainable than Koeman's pragmatism, though that probably has short-term advantages over MP's approach. None which is to say that Koeman hasn't been very good for us and MP is a **** for the way he strung us along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Both RK and MP are fine managers but if I had to chose I would go for Pochettino Its a tough one because Ron worked wonders after the summer we had . However, some of the football we played under Pochettino was the best since Chris Nicholl . Some of the movement going forward was sublime, Fulham away & Hull at home stick in my mind. I don't really care about stats and debuts and who blooded who. My opinion is that Poch trusted young players more than Ron does. Would Poch have played Toby in centre mid or given Harry R a go ? Ron wins a personality contest hands down but Poch edges the managerial stakes at this moment in time imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Despite us achieving more under Koeman? Yes it's a close shout but I think MP has slightly more about him. Koeman got us into Europe but blew it in Denmark with his odd team selections Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Its a tough one because Ron worked wonders after the summer we had . However, some of the football we played under Pochettino was the best since Chris Nicholl . Some of the movement going forward was sublime, Fulham away & Hull at home stick in my mind. I don't really care about stats and debuts and who blooded who. My opinion is that Poch trusted young players more than Ron does. Would Poch have played Toby in centre mid or given Harry R a go ? Ron wins a personality contest hands down but Poch edges the managerial stakes at this moment in time imo I'm still of the opinion that's because poch's style works better with youngsters who are eager to impress, and happy to do all those extra training sessions and such like, that older experienced pros might not. He was lucky at saints that even our older players were new to the PL and pretty much happy to do anything to stay there. It's interesting to note that Poch struggled with some of the older pros at spurs last season and has culled the spurs squad during the summer down to , or so I read, 15 players he wanted to use (plus some others who couldn't ditch). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Yes it's a close shout but I think MP has slightly more about him. Koeman got us into Europe but blew it in Denmark with his odd team selections Right, I'm with you now, what they achieve with the resources and situation they have isn't important, it's having 'more about them' that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Right, I'm with you now, what they achieve with the resources and situation they have isn't important, it's having 'more about them' that matters. Don't know what your point is - RK and MP worked with different resources and situations, making direct comparisons extremely difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 I loved watching Saints under Pochettino. We had a real identity in the style of play and lots of English players who were getting plaudits, including a fair few that were club produced - which is always nice. However you could argue that as seven of his team (Shaw, Chambers, Clyne, Lallana, Schneiderlin, Lambert & Lovren) were deemed top four quality by the various top four contenders who bought them, that he could have taken us to slightly better league finishes? He did however completely change the PL perception of Saints, from a "meh" club to one that is recognised as progressive and ultimately a top half team. Koeman has done a great job. We don't press as much and probably the fans have slightly less of an affinity with the (mostly foreign) players he has brought in, but reality is he could hardly have done better considering the challenging circumstances he inherited. I think Pochettino will ultimately achieve more as a Manager than Koeman but you cannot underestimate the impact Koeman has as a person of being a calming presence, which for a club like ours and the fact we do sell our best players - is a great fit. Both were superb appointments at the right time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 CB Fry can't argue or even debate, he can only sneer. The bravest man the biggest cyber warrior on this forum don't you know I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 I loved watching Saints under Pochettino. We had a real identity in the style of play and lots of English players who were getting plaudits, including a fair few that were club produced - which is always nice. However you could argue that as seven of his team (Shaw, Chambers, Clyne, Lallana, Schneiderlin, Lambert & Lovren) were deemed top four quality by the various top four contenders who bought them, that he could have taken us to slightly better league finishes? He did however completely change the PL perception of Saints, from a "meh" club to one that is recognised as progressive and ultimately a top half team. Koeman has done a great job. We don't press as much and probably the fans have slightly less of an affinity with the (mostly foreign) players he has brought in, but reality is he could hardly have done better considering the challenging circumstances he inherited. I think Pochettino will ultimately achieve more as a Manager than Koeman but you cannot underestimate the impact Koeman has as a person of being a calming presence, which for a club like ours and the fact we do sell our best players - is a great fit. Both were superb appointments at the right time. Would say only Shaw, Morgan and possibly Clyne are genuinely top four material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Don't know what your point is - RK and MP worked with different resources and situations, making direct comparisons extremely difficult. My point is quite straight forward, but just for your simple self, Koeman has achieved more than MP, in harder circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 (edited) My point is quite straight forward, but just for your simple self, Koeman has achieved more than MP, in harder circumstances. Relax, pal. Just making a factually CORRECT statement that they were working with different resources, making comparisons difficult if not impossible. I'd agree that Koeman inherited a more difficult situation (at least in terms of the summer disruption) but I also believe he had a better overall squad. Edited 29 November, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 My point is quite straight forward, but just for your simple self, Koeman has achieved more than MP, in harder circumstances. How do you define harder curcumstances? Could argue that Koeman has been able to shape his team a lot more and has signed numerous players he has wanted. Pochettino largely worked with players he inherited and he would not have known lots about prior to joining the club. He also changed the perception of the club from PL also rans to a club people took note of. Thats not easy to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Still think we should have gotten Ranieri when we had the chance anyway so it's no surprise to me that the Batave is now being questioned albeit by a minority. Too staid and dutch for me...sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donatello Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 (edited) Since I had the data for last season (for when I compared to rest of league), I thought I'd knock up a table for Poch's season. It's not a comparison (on my part), merely the information presented neatly (if I do say so myself ). Pochettino 13/14 Season [table=width: 500", class: grid] [tr] [td]Player Name[/td] [td]Age[/td] [td]Mins[/td] [td]Appearances[/td] [td]Starts[/td] [td]Sub[/td] [td]Other[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Callum Chambers[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1641[/td] [td]22[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Sam Gallagher[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]375[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]15[/td] [td]Debut season, 17 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]James Ward Prowse[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1617[/td] [td]34[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]18[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Harrison Reed[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]12[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Luke Shaw[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]2990[/td] [td]35[/td] [td]30[/td] [td]5[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [/table] [table=width: 500, class: grid] [tr] [td]Total Mins[/td] [td]Total Appearances[/td] [td]Total Starts[/td] [td]Total Sub[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]6635[/td] [td]113[/td] [td]67[/td] [td]46[/td] [/tr] [/table] Koeman 14/15 Season [table=width: 700, class: grid] [tr] [td]Player Name[/td] [td]Age[/td] [td]Mins[/td] [td]Featured[/td] [td]Starts[/td] [td]Sub[/td] [td]Other[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Sam Gallagher[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Dominic Gape[/td] [td]20[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season, 19 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Jake Hesketh[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]52[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Lloyd Isgrove[/td] [td]21[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Jason McCarthy[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season, 18 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]James Ward Prowse[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]1476[/td] [td]25[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]Suffered injury, missing 7-10 games.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Harrison Reed[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]460[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Ryan Seager[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Matt Targett[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]226[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]Debut season, 18 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [/table] [table=width: 500, class: grid] [tr] [td]Total Mins[/td] [td]Total Appearances[/td] [td]Total Starts[/td] [td]Total Sub[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2228[/td] [td]46[/td] [td]25[/td] [td]21[/td] [/tr] [/table] P.S Please correct where/if wrong Edited 29 November, 2015 by Donatello Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Pointless comparison in that if Koeman had Shaw he would have played him every week. Chambers would also have got gametime so Koeman definitely has a weaker pool of young talent than Pochettino did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 How do you define harder curcumstances? Could argue that Koeman has been able to shape his team a lot more and has signed numerous players he has wanted. Pochettino largely worked with players he inherited and he would not have known lots about prior to joining the club. He also changed the perception of the club from PL also rans to a club people took note of. Thats not easy to do. Don't tell me you've forgotten your own personal breakdown on here in the summer 2014 on the state of club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Don't tell me you've forgotten your own personal breakdown on here in the summer 2014 on the state of club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 (edited) Since I had the data for last season (for when I compared to rest of league), I thought I'd knock up a table for Poch's season. It's not a comparison (on my part), merely the information presented neatly (if I do say so myself ). Pochettino 13/14 Season [table=width: 500", class: grid] [tr] [td]Player Name[/td] [td]Age[/td] [td]Mins[/td] [td]Appearances[/td] [td]Starts[/td] [td]Sub[/td] [td]Other[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Callum Chambers[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1641[/td] [td]22[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Sam Gallagher[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]375[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]15[/td] [td]Debut season, 17 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]James Ward Prowse[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1617[/td] [td]34[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]18[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Harrison Reed[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]12[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Luke Shaw[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]2990[/td] [td]35[/td] [td]30[/td] [td]5[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [/table] [table=width: 500, class: grid] [tr] [td]Total Mins[/td] [td]Total Appearances[/td] [td]Total Starts[/td] [td]Total Sub[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]6635[/td] [td]113[/td] [td]67[/td] [td]46[/td] [/tr] [/table] Koeman 14/15 Season [table=width: 700, class: grid] [tr] [td]Player Name[/td] [td]Age[/td] [td]Mins[/td] [td]Featured[/td] [td]Starts[/td] [td]Sub[/td] [td]Other[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Sam Gallagher[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Dominic Gape[/td] [td]20[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season, 19 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Jake Hesketh[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]52[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Lloyd Isgrove[/td] [td]21[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Jason McCarthy[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season, 18 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]James Ward Prowse[/td] [td]1476[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]25[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]Suffered injury, missing 7-10 games.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Harrison Reed[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]460[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Ryan Seager[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Matt Targett[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]226[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]Debut season, 18 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [/table] [table=width: 500, class: grid] [tr] [td]Total Mins[/td] [td]Total Appearances[/td] [td]Total Starts[/td] [td]Total Sub[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2228[/td] [td]46[/td] [td]25[/td] [td]21[/td] [/tr] [/table] P.S Please correct where/if wrong JWP age 1476? explains a lot to be honest.... Edited 29 November, 2015 by doddisalegend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 I loved watching Saints under Pochettino. We had a real identity in the style of play and lots of English players who were getting plaudits, including a fair few that were club produced - which is always nice. However you could argue that as seven of his team (Shaw, Chambers, Clyne, Lallana, Schneiderlin, Lambert & Lovren) were deemed top four quality by the various top four contenders who bought them, that he could have taken us to slightly better league finishes? He did however completely change the PL perception of Saints, from a "meh" club to one that is recognised as progressive and ultimately a top half team. Koeman has done a great job. We don't press as much and probably the fans have slightly less of an affinity with the (mostly foreign) players he has brought in, but reality is he could hardly have done better considering the challenging circumstances he inherited. I think Pochettino will ultimately achieve more as a Manager than Koeman but you cannot underestimate the impact Koeman has as a person of being a calming presence, which for a club like ours and the fact we do sell our best players - is a great fit. Both were superb appointments at the right time.good post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 (edited) Don't tell me you've forgotten your own personal breakdown on here in the summer 2014 on the state of club. Ha, was posing the question on how you assess the circumstances rather than saying it was my opinion. Poch took over as a complete unknown to fans, replacing the Manager most loved, in shady circumstances that lots of Saints fans strongly disagreed with at the time. So wasnt exactly easy for him either. Looking at Spurs team, the key players are still mostly those he inherited and has gotten the best out of as well as just new signings. Thats a good trait he has to get the best from players with the right attributes. Both he and Koeman are excellent but very different Managers I guess. Edited 29 November, 2015 by Saint Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donatello Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 JWP age 1476? explains a lot to be honest.... Ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donatello Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Pointless comparison in that if Koeman had Shaw he would have played him every week. Chambers would also have got gametime so Koeman definitely has a weaker pool of young talent than Pochettino did. And I quote, "it's not a comparison". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 (edited) And I quote, "it's not a comparison". Whats the point of it then, if not to compare between the Koeman and Pochettino era? Edited 29 November, 2015 by Saint Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donatello Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Whats the point of it then? It's a list of players and how they were utilised. You can draw comparisons\conclusions from it, or you can do nothing (I was just posting the information for the curious) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 It's a list of players and how they were utilised. You can draw comparisons\conclusions from it, or you can do nothing (I was just posting the information for the curious) [emoji106] Its interesting enough. But only of any use for comparison purposes [emoji1] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donatello Posted 29 November, 2015 Share Posted 29 November, 2015 Its interesting enough. But only of any use for comparison purposes [emoji1] Yeah, my point is that *I* wasn't making a direct comparison by posting it (to further either of the ongoing arguments\persuasions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 30 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 30 November, 2015 Thanks for posting that, it was interesting to get the info, even if it shows, as you said, that they can't be compared. Koeman gave out more debuts, but with less meaningful playing time, but the main players of the necessary quality had already moved on before RK started. Funny, the original thing I was asking, or meant to ask, was whether Gape was the style of player who just needed to bulk up and may come through later, or whether he was the type of player that would be showing already if he was good enough for our level. I'm not sure I'm any the wiser. For what it's worth I think MP and RK are mostly equally likely to let kids play if they are ready. Targett was given a chance just like Shaw and Chambers were, JWP still plays his occasional role. I seem to remember Reed's starts under MP came mainly in cups. The main difference is possibly playing kids in cup matches. I think one of the things MP was criticised most for, when we still liked him, was playing a weaker team in the cup matches. This still seems to divide people. I'm pretty sure we'd all be horrified if Gape started in place of Wanyama on a Saturday afternoon against Spurs or United, barring a string of injuries. Cups or when defending a strong lead are probably the most likely times we're going to see kids start, but I think RK is keen to show he's taking the cup seriously, so there won't be too many experiments there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 2 December, 2015 Share Posted 2 December, 2015 Since I had the data for last season (for when I compared to rest of league), I thought I'd knock up a table for Poch's season. It's not a comparison (on my part), merely the information presented neatly (if I do say so myself ). Pochettino 13/14 Season [table=width: 500", class: grid] [tr] [td]Player Name[/td] [td]Age[/td] [td]Mins[/td] [td]Appearances[/td] [td]Starts[/td] [td]Sub[/td] [td]Other[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Callum Chambers[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1641[/td] [td]22[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Sam Gallagher[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]375[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]15[/td] [td]Debut season, 17 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]James Ward Prowse[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1617[/td] [td]34[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]18[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Harrison Reed[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]12[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Luke Shaw[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]2990[/td] [td]35[/td] [td]30[/td] [td]5[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [/table] [table=width: 500, class: grid] [tr] [td]Total Mins[/td] [td]Total Appearances[/td] [td]Total Starts[/td] [td]Total Sub[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]6635[/td] [td]113[/td] [td]67[/td] [td]46[/td] [/tr] [/table] Koeman 14/15 Season [table=width: 700, class: grid] [tr] [td]Player Name[/td] [td]Age[/td] [td]Mins[/td] [td]Featured[/td] [td]Starts[/td] [td]Sub[/td] [td]Other[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Sam Gallagher[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Dominic Gape[/td] [td]20[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season, 19 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Jake Hesketh[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]52[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Lloyd Isgrove[/td] [td]21[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Jason McCarthy[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season, 18 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]James Ward Prowse[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]1476[/td] [td]25[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]Suffered injury, missing 7-10 games.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Harrison Reed[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]460[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Ryan Seager[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Matt Targett[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]226[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]Debut season, 18 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [/table] [table=width: 500, class: grid] [tr] [td]Total Mins[/td] [td]Total Appearances[/td] [td]Total Starts[/td] [td]Total Sub[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2228[/td] [td]46[/td] [td]25[/td] [td]21[/td] [/tr] [/table] P.S Please correct where/if wrong Good set of stats. but once again it's down to how you interpret them..... Nigel Adkins used Ward-Prowse from the start of the Prem.season 1..(and he had a good bit of game time) whilst Luke Shaw had started (at least 13 games) by the time that Pochettino arrived. Shaw must have been regarded as the regular LB at that time - regardless of his youthful age. To credit MP for ...taking the talent out of Staplewood and playing them as SMS ..is somewhat of a misconception... They can't be considered new ....(but established squad names by then) ...don't know what that does to your stats, but I don't think MP wasn't so innovative in that aspect. Like Koeman he used U21 players when we had an injury crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSAINT Posted 16 July, 2016 Share Posted 16 July, 2016 On trial at Yeovil. (Still under contract with us though) http://www.ciderspace.co.uk/ASP/news/news.asp?NewsItemId=25484 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordic Saint Posted 16 July, 2016 Share Posted 16 July, 2016 Since I had the data for last season (for when I compared to rest of league), I thought I'd knock up a table for Poch's season. It's not a comparison (on my part), merely the information presented neatly (if I do say so myself ). Pochettino 13/14 Season [table=width: 500", class: grid] [tr] [td]Player Name[/td] [td]Age[/td] [td]Mins[/td] [td]Appearances[/td] [td]Starts[/td] [td]Sub[/td] [td]Other[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Callum Chambers[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1641[/td] [td]22[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Sam Gallagher[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]375[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]15[/td] [td]Debut season, 17 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]James Ward Prowse[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1617[/td] [td]34[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]18[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Harrison Reed[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]12[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Luke Shaw[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]2990[/td] [td]35[/td] [td]30[/td] [td]5[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [/table] [table=width: 500, class: grid] [tr] [td]Total Mins[/td] [td]Total Appearances[/td] [td]Total Starts[/td] [td]Total Sub[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]6635[/td] [td]113[/td] [td]67[/td] [td]46[/td] [/tr] [/table] Koeman 14/15 Season [table=width: 700, class: grid] [tr] [td]Player Name[/td] [td]Age[/td] [td]Mins[/td] [td]Featured[/td] [td]Starts[/td] [td]Sub[/td] [td]Other[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Sam Gallagher[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]0[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Dominic Gape[/td] [td]20[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season, 19 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Jake Hesketh[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]52[/td] [td]2[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Lloyd Isgrove[/td] [td]21[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Jason McCarthy[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season, 18 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]James Ward Prowse[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]1476[/td] [td]25[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]Suffered injury, missing 7-10 games.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Harrison Reed[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]460[/td] [td]9[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]4[/td] [td][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Ryan Seager[/td] [td]18[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]0[/td] [td]1[/td] [td]Debut season.[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Matt Targett[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]226[/td] [td]6[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]3[/td] [td]Debut season, 18 at season start.[/td] [/tr] [/table] [table=width: 500, class: grid] [tr] [td]Total Mins[/td] [td]Total Appearances[/td] [td]Total Starts[/td] [td]Total Sub[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]2228[/td] [td]46[/td] [td]25[/td] [td]21[/td] [/tr] [/table] P.S Please correct where/if wrong No, you're not wrong. Saints really did sell Luke Shaw and Calum Chambers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 16 July, 2016 Share Posted 16 July, 2016 I loved watching Saints under Pochettino. We had a real identity in the style of play and lots of English players who were getting plaudits, including a fair few that were club produced - which is always nice. However you could argue that as seven of his team (Shaw, Chambers, Clyne, Lallana, Schneiderlin, Lambert & Lovren) were deemed top four quality by the various top four contenders who bought them, that he could have taken us to slightly better league finishes? He did however completely change the PL perception of Saints, from a "meh" club to one that is recognised as progressive and ultimately a top half team. Koeman has done a great job. We don't press as much and probably the fans have slightly less of an affinity with the (mostly foreign) players he has brought in, but reality is he could hardly have done better considering the challenging circumstances he inherited. I think Pochettino will ultimately achieve more as a Manager than Koeman but you cannot underestimate the impact Koeman has as a person of being a calming presence, which for a club like ours and the fact we do sell our best players - is a great fit. Both were superb appointments at the right time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eelpie Posted 16 July, 2016 Share Posted 16 July, 2016 We've got a new manager who believes in bringing on the youth. So they all have everything to play for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobbysouth Posted 17 July, 2016 Share Posted 17 July, 2016 U21s on youtube yes, that is neither here nor there, he's 21, been at the club for years and is no nearer the 1st XI than he was a couple of years back. These lads will either make the grade by the time they're 19 or 20 or will just peter out as have done so many before them. You've got to be farkin good to be a PL player, even on the periphery of it and whilst these lads obviously have some attributes they obviously don't have what it takes to make the big step up. Should probably of mentioned this sooner so we could've not bought Charlie Austin or SRL. Maybe Leicester will let Jamie Vardy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StDunko Posted 18 July, 2016 Share Posted 18 July, 2016 On trial at Yeovil. (Still under contract with us though) http://www.ciderspace.co.uk/ASP/news/news.asp?NewsItemId=25484 Any news if this has been confirmed as a loan move. Unfortunately don't fancy his chances of breaking through at Saints, if a loan at L2 Yeovil is deemed to be his level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 18 July, 2016 Share Posted 18 July, 2016 Any news if this has been confirmed as a loan move. Unfortunately don't fancy his chances of breaking through at Saints, if a loan at L2 Yeovil is deemed to be his level. Yeovil seem to have bevvy of trialists on parade for their pre-season friendlies. Gape doesn't seem to be named but Bevis Mugabi does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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