New Manager Watch Thread

[oldsaint]

sorry meant 4 from 36 points 

[Streaky]

I wonder what the Ralph is god brigade will say if we lose to bournemouth. Probably blame Gao for everything again 🙄

[stevy777_x]

9 minutes ago, oldsaint said:

 

Lets keep RH because we cannot attract anyone better!

Are you sure, a recent record of 4 out of 48point and that includes one win against the worst side in the PL, listen to yourselves

I think anyone we chose could match that and probably better it

I believe that our supporters are shot away like the manager, no ideas and to late to see need for a change. Why believe what is not working will work with no obvious proof it will. In fact the opposite is the case the evidence since the beginning of the year is that a change is required.

I like RH but I liked people who worked for me but if they were not doing the job and there was no sign of improvement I got rid of them. So it not about liking people it about results

The players are not that bad just give them a system of play where they can compete, move the ball quicker and stop passing back and whoever is manager you will see an improvement.

Failing that we will be in the Championship this year or the next and RH system won’t work there.

We want a manager who can use the players he has to form a team, and not a manager who plays a system that he does not have the players for.

🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️

[TWar]

2 hours ago, oldsaint said:

 

Lets keep RH because we cannot attract anyone better!

Are you sure, a recent record of 4 out of 48point and that includes one win against the worst side in the PL, listen to yourselves

I think anyone we chose could match that and probably better it

He's been in charge of us for 90 league games, most people are judging him on more than 12 of them. In the league he averages about (32 wins, 19 draws, 39 losses in 90 games) 1.3 pts a game which amounts to about 49 points a season. This is mid-table pushing europe points total, our net spend over the last 5 years is literally bottom of the league (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1, over a ten year period we are second bottom after Burnley) so getting that out of this squad is pretty impressive. Maybe the people saying he's better than anyone we can get to replace him are judging him on more than 12 games where he has been missing a chunk of the squad, has had statistically harder fixtures, and is playing with a freakishly congested schedule which disproportionately effects teams like us (and liverpool) who play a high energy, high intensity style. We need investment, we don't need to ditch the guy overperforming with our paper thin squad.

Edited 18 March, 2021 by TWar

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, TWar said:

has had statistically harder fixtures, 

Based on what? 

[SKD]

3 hours ago, TWar said:

He's been in charge of us for 90 league games, most people are judging him on more than 12 of them. In the league he averages about (32 wins, 19 draws, 39 losses in 90 games) 1.3 pts a game which amounts to about 49 points a season. This is mid-table pushing europe points total, our net spend over the last 5 years is literally bottom of the league (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1, over a ten year period we are second bottom after Burnley) so getting that out of this squad is pretty impressive. Maybe the people saying he's better than anyone we can get to replace him are judging him on more than 12 games where he has been missing a chunk of the squad, has had statistically harder fixtures, and is playing with a freakishly congested schedule which disproportionately effects teams like us (and liverpool) who play a high energy, high intensity style. We need investment, we don't need to ditch the guy overperforming with our paper thin squad.

I sorry mate, but you can pull as many ‘points per game’ stats or excuses as you like. The reality is, any manager who has 2 record breaking defeats and a run of 1 win in 12 games can consider themselves very lucky to still be in a job.... and I’m still Ralph in. 

[TWar]

18 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Based on what? 

The average league position if one were to play all 19 other teams, (assuming we are mid table) is 10.5.

Teams played in those 12 games (current league position):

Leicester (3), Arsenal(10), Villa(9), United(2), Newcastle(17), Wolves(13), Chelsea(4), Leeds(12), Everton(7), Sheffield United(20), Man City(1), Brighton(16)

Average position faced in that run = 9.1

Remaining teams (current league position)

Burnley(15), West Brom(19), Palace(11), Leicester(3), Liverpool(6), Fulham(18), Leeds(12), West ham(5),spurs(8)

Average league position played till end of season = 10.7

Therefore we have played a harder set of teams in the last 12 than we will in the final 9 and that run is markedly harder than average.

7 minutes ago, SKD said:

I sorry mate, but you can pull as many ‘points per game’ stats or excuses as you like. The reality is, any manager who has 2 record breaking defeats and a run of 1 win in 12 games can consider themselves very lucky to still be in a job.... and I’m still Ralph in. 

Unfortunately two freak games happening in two seasons and a run of bad results over 12 games does not invalidate doing very well over 90 games. "points per game" isn't an excuse, it is THE objective metric. By what logic is taking his success across his tenure an "excuse" but taking his performance over a clipped out small sample size of 12 games objective fact? You are just being very short-termist and judging our manager by a couple of months of poor form coupled to a freak result in 2019. 

Edited 18 March, 2021 by TWar

[SKD]

48 minutes ago, TWar said:

Unfortunately two freak games happening in two seasons and a run of bad results over 12 games does not invalidate doing very well over 90 games. "points per game" isn't an excuse, it is THE objective metric. By what logic is taking his success across his tenure an "excuse" but taking his performance over a clipped out small sample size of 12 games objective fact? You are just being very short-termist and judging our manager by a couple of months of poor form coupled to a freak result in 2019. 

A freak result, that’s happened twice..... 

 

12 games, 3-4 months, is not ‘short-termist’. It’s a sign that there is something very wrong. I’ve given him the benefit of the doubt with injuries etc. However, I have concerns about his reluctance to change and I’m starting to doubt his ability to motive the squad. 
 

It’s not the first time we’ve been on a bad run, we were just as shit before and just after the 9-0. In fact, I think the covid break leading to us being fitter than most of the other teams has given everyone the view that Ralph is some god like manager. 
 

I like him, I don’t want him Sacked and want him to turn it around, but as I said, he’s very lucky to still be in a job. 

[Billy the Kidd]

6 hours ago, oldsaint said:

 

Lets keep RH because we cannot attract anyone better!

Are you sure, a recent record of 4 out of 48point and that includes one win against the worst side in the PL, listen to yourselves

I think anyone we chose could match that and probably better it

I believe that our supporters are shot away like the manager, no ideas and to late to see need for a change. Why believe what is not working will work with no obvious proof it will. In fact the opposite is the case the evidence since the beginning of the year is that a change is required.

I like RH but I liked people who worked for me but if they were not doing the job and there was no sign of improvement I got rid of them. So it not about liking people it about results

The players are not that bad just give them a system of play where they can compete, move the ball quicker and stop passing back and whoever is manager you will see an improvement.

Failing that we will be in the Championship this year or the next and RH system won’t work there.

We want a manager who can use the players he has to form a team, and not a manager who plays a system that he does not have the players for.

 

I'm not saying g keep or get rid of Ralph, but when you say we have no proof it works is utter bollocks.

We were virtually the best team in 2020, and yep I get it's the season that counts, but we cant ignore the fact that when it works, it is great and one of the best in the league.

Now I think Ralph has much to learn, and can be stubborn, but its highly unlikely we go down this season, let's see if he can shift some of the crap like Redmond and Djeneppo, and see where we are this time next year, but let's not say it has never worked, cos we know it has.

[Billy the Kidd]

6 hours ago, Streaky said:

I wonder what the Ralph is god brigade will say if we lose to bournemouth. Probably blame Gao for everything again 🙄

I think here is a large possibility we will lose to them, I think we may not beat Burnley too.

I think if we dont beat these two, and fail to beat WBA the straw may have broken the camels back, but still wouldn't be surprised we keep Ralph as per my last post.

[TWar]

15 minutes ago, SKD said:

12 games, 3-4 months, is not ‘short-termist’. It’s a sign that there is something very wrong.

And when we are top 4 in the table after 12 games, was that a sign that Ralph is one of the best managers in the league? And if so what happened in the month or so between these two periods? Did he hit his head and forget everything he knows?

The reality is that if one uses a small enough sample size they can prove anything, he was overperforming for a couple of months and now he's way underperforming his quality. This is why you have to try to not be too reactive to short term trends, especially with extenuating circumstances like the injuries we'd had. Fortunately our board will judge him over his whole record rather than either the flukey winning run at the beginning of the season and flukey losing run now.

Also something happening twice in two and a half years doesn't mean it isn't a freak result.

Edited 18 March, 2021 by TWar

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

And when we are top 4 in the table after 12 games, was that a sign that Ralph is one of the best managers in the league? And if so what happened in the month or so between these two periods? Did he hit his head and forget everything he knows?

The reality is that if one uses a small enough sample size they can prove anything, he was overperforming for a couple of months and now he's way underperforming his quality. This is why you have to try to not be too reactive to short term trends, especially with extenuating circumstances like the injuries we'd had. Fortunately our board will judge him over his whole record rather than either the flukey winning run at the beginning of the season and flukey losing run now.

Also something happening twice in two and a half years doesn't mean it isn't a freak result.

How do you explain his woeful performance at the start of the 2019/20 season. He’s had 2 shit spells and one good one. You only concentrate on the good spell, what if that was the blip. 
 

All I know is he finished 11th and did nothing in both cups last season. If we lose to Brentford & Boscombe in the cups and finish 15th, 16th, 17th this. That ain’t great. In fact it’s fucking poor. Still he’ll have his “calendar year” award on the mantle. 

Edited 18 March, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[Rivers]

8 hours ago, Streaky said:

I wonder what the Ralph is god brigade will say if we lose to bournemouth.

Sorry, the "Ralph is god brigade"?. 

You don't do yourself any favours by labelling your fellow Saints fans who happen to have a different opinion to you with silly exaggerations .

You are talking about what still appears to be a majority of our support who are simply doing just that. Supporting our manager through a difficult spell he's enduring under great duress, after he's given us a lot to smile about since he's been here. Perhaps you could try it? Loyalty goes both ways y'know.

 

5 hours ago, TWar said:

He's been in charge of us for 90 league games, most people are judging him on more than 12 of them. In the league he averages about (32 wins, 19 draws, 39 losses in 90 games) 1.3 pts a game which amounts to about 49 points a season. This is mid-table pushing europe points total, our net spend over the last 5 years is literally bottom of the league (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1, over a ten year period we are second bottom after Burnley) so getting that out of this squad is pretty impressive. Maybe the people saying he's better than anyone we can get to replace him are judging him on more than 12 games where he has been missing a chunk of the squad, has had statistically harder fixtures, and is playing with a freakishly congested schedule which disproportionately effects teams like us (and liverpool) who play a high energy, high intensity style. We need investment, we don't need to ditch the guy overperforming with our paper thin squad.

Excellent post sir. Eloquently expressed. Thank you for putting what I tried to get across a few days back far more succinctly than I managed.

[TWar]

45 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

How do you explain his woeful performance at the start of the 2019/20 season. He’s had 2 shit spells and one good one. You only concentrate on the good spell, what if that was the blip. 
 

All I know is he finished 11th and did nothing in both cups last season. If we lose to Brentford & Boscombe in the cups and finish 15th, 16th, 17th this. That ain’t great. In fact it’s fucking poor. Still he’ll have his “calendar year” award on the mantle. 

I'm not concentrating on anything, my stats were taken across the entirety of his stay. I spoke about his points per game across the entire 90 league games. Feels like you didn't read this bit:

"The reality is that if one uses a small enough sample size they can prove anything, he was overperforming for a couple of months and now he's way underperforming his quality. This is why you have to try to not be too reactive to short term trends"

if you think I am only focusing on the good spell. Teams have ups and downs, that was a down, the entirety of 2020 was an up, now we are in a down again it all averages out to a decent midtable to lower europa league side. Which is impressive given the funds invested and the relegation threatened status of this club before Ralph turned up.

Finishing 11th with the squad he has is an achievement, as shown by the net spend over the past 5-10 years. We'll see, i think he'll get 12th or so and the semis which is a decent return really. People have mad short memories as to how well our previous couple of managers did before Ralph was on the scene.

Edited 18 March, 2021 by TWar

[Lord Duckhunter]

44 minutes ago, TWar said:

Finishing 11th with the squad he has is an achievement, as shown by the net spend over the past 5-10 years. We'll see, i think he'll get 12th or so and the semis which is a decent return really. People have mad short memories as to how well our previous couple of managers did before Ralph was on the scene.

However you spin it, 11th is no big deal. It’s certainly not an “achievement “. Certainly a lot worse than Claude Puel did, who got sacked. He’s better than Pelligrino, big deal. He’s not much better than Mark Hughes. However, neither of them had one 9-0 on their record, let alone two. 
 

Net spend over 5-10 years, what a fucking joke. What is it, 5? 10? 
 

If we lose Saturday and get relegated, some of you clowns will still worship him. It’s like a cult. 
 

 

 

Edited 18 March, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[Streaky]

3 hours ago, Billy the Kidd said:

I think here is a large possibility we will lose to them, I think we may not beat Burnley too.

I think if we dont beat these two, and fail to beat WBA the straw may have broken the camels back, but still wouldn't be surprised we keep Ralph as per my last post.

I honestly think the only reason hassenhuttl is still here is because we can't afford to sack him. I think we will stay up this season but we are on a slippery slope and I'm already fearing what next season will bring.

Hopefully we can wheel and deal and get a few bargains in and somehow replace Ings. Just don't know where our high pressing game has gone, when we went top of the league we were bullying teams into mistakes and suffocating there midfield, when did we last do that to anybody.

We've had injuries but it shouldn't change the way you play and the smaller squad was Ralph's idea. Something isn't right at the club that's for sure.

[TWar]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

However you spin it, 11th is no big deal. It’s certainly not an “achievement “. Certainly a lot worse than Claude Puel did, who got sacked. He’s better than Pelligrino, big deal. He’s not much better than Mark Hughes. However, neither of them had one 9-0 on their record, let alone two. 
 

Net spend over 5-10 years, what a fucking joke. What is it, 5? 10? 
 

If we lose Saturday and get relegated, some of you clowns will still worship him. It’s like a cult. 
 

 

 

Puel got 46 points from a team that had previously made top 8 three years on the bounce. Ralph got 52 points from a team that had just had the previous two seasons narrowly avoiding relegation. I hate to think you consider context "spinning it". Also why do you keep crying about the 9-0 results? It's two freak results in an otherwise good tenure. I'm sorry they bother you so much but from a purely results based stand point its not that much worse than a 3-0 loss, a hit to the GD to be sure but rarely does that come into play when deciding league position.

Net spend over 5 years we are bottom, net spend over 10 we are second bottom. I said it in the above comment. Not sure how its particularly hard to grasp, or what you mean by "what is it, 5? 10?". The team has been underfunded over the last decade, and especially over the last five years.

Our chance of getting relegated is like 40/1 in the odds. It's very very unlikely. Sometimes unlikely things do happen, such is how statistics work, so no one would "look like clowns" but its nothing to get worked up about now.

No one worships him, we observe he has had a good win rate and has given a good identity to us, as well as having markedly improved us since we took over. We think people who write that off after a small bad patch of a couple of months after a full year of being a quality side are a bit reactionary. It only seems "cult-like" because you have come to a conclusion based off a very small data set and are getting a bit upset when people try to refer to the bigger picture, that he has a good PPG across his time here given the investment. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

19 minutes ago, TWar said:

Puel got 46 points from a team that had previously made top 8 three years on the bounce. Ralph got 52 points from a team that had just had the previous two seasons narrowly avoiding relegation. I hate to think you consider context "spinning it". 

 

Of course it’s spinning it. Who cares about points, it’s league placing that counts, always has been, always will. It’s only weirdos that won’t accept Puel did a decent job that bring it up. By your method of difining a season, Liverpool runners up in 2019 had a better season than Arsenals invicables, who never lost a game. 
 

 

[DT]

Sounds like both Spurs fans and Mourinho himself are agitating for Mourinho to go tonight after that europa result. Ralf there next ?  Longshots sure, but out of question? Levy loves a Saints raid   

[CB Fry]

58 minutes ago, TWar said:

Puel got 46 points from a team that had previously made top 8 three years on the bounce. Ralph got 52 points from a team that had just had the previous two seasons narrowly avoiding relegation. I hate to think you consider context "spinning it". Also why do you keep crying about the 9-0 results? It's two freak results in an otherwise good tenure. I'm sorry they bother you so much but from a purely results based stand point its not that much worse than a 3-0 loss, a hit to the GD to be sure but rarely does that come into play when deciding league position.

Net spend over 5 years we are bottom, net spend over 10 we are second bottom. I said it in the above comment. Not sure how its particularly hard to grasp, or what you mean by "what is it, 5? 10?". The team has been underfunded over the last decade, and especially over the last five years.

Our chance of getting relegated is like 40/1 in the odds. It's very very unlikely. Sometimes unlikely things do happen, such is how statistics work, so no one would "look like clowns" but its nothing to get worked up about now.

No one worships him, we observe he has had a good win rate and has given a good identity to us, as well as having markedly improved us since we took over. We think people who write that off after a small bad patch of a couple of months after a full year of being a quality side are a bit reactionary. It only seems "cult-like" because you have come to a conclusion based off a very small data set and are getting a bit upset when people try to refer to the bigger picture, that he has a good PPG across his time here given the investment. 

Pure, unadulterated spin.

This season Ralph has inherited a team from Ralph. It's his fucking team. How many seasons does have to manage the club for him to be held responsible for the team, the tactics, the performances.

We're on track to maybe scrape the points that Dave Jones got in his shit season when Pahars kept us up on the last day. Or are you going to pretend that Dave Jones inherited some wonder team that Ralph could only dream of?

The shite you've written about Puel has been dealt with already but maybe put it this way. 

If Puel's 2016-17 squad is somehow inextricably linked to Pochettino's team of 8th place finishers three seasons before (2013-14) as you claim, then Ralph's team last season 2019-20 is equally linked to the Puel season three seasons before that (2016-17).

We can only conclude that four years on the influence of Puel is now gone and here we are tumbling down the table on one of the worst runs in our history. Ralph's success last season was built on in what he inherited from Claude. Did worse if course: 11th vs 8th. The further we get away from Puel's legacy the worse we get.

That is how it works, right?

 

Edited 18 March, 2021 by CB Fry

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Pure, unadulterated spin.

This season Ralph has inherited a team from Ralph. It's his fucking team. How many seasons does have to manage the club for him to be held responsible for the team, the tactics, the performances.

We're on track to maybe scrape the points that Dave Jones got in his shit season when Pahars kept us up on the last day. Or are you going to pretend that Dave Jones inherited some wonder team that Ralph could only dream of?

The shite you've written about Puel has been dealt with already but maybe put it this way. 

If Puel's 2016-17 squad is somehow inextricably linked to Pochettino's team of 8th place finishers three seasons before (2013-14) as you claim, then Ralph's team last season 2019-20 is equally linked to the Puel season three seasons before that (2016-17).

We can only conclude that four years on the influence of Puel is now gone and here we are tumbling down the table on one of the worst runs in our history. Ralph's success last season was built on in what he inherited from Claude. Did worse if course: 11th vs 8th. The further we get away from Puel's legacy the worse we get.

That is how it works, right?

 

Yeah but it as a good eleventh and a bad eighth. Or something.

[woodsaint1]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

However you spin it, 11th is no big deal. It’s certainly not an “achievement “. Certainly a lot worse than Claude Puel did, who got sacked. He’s better than Pelligrino, big deal. He’s not much better than Mark Hughes. However, neither of them had one 9-0 on their record, let alone two. 
 

Net spend over 5-10 years, what a fucking joke. What is it, 5? 10? 
 

If we lose Saturday and get relegated, some of you clowns will still worship him. It’s like a cult. 
 

 

 

Alright Claude.....we heard you first time fs

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

Puel got 46 points from a team that had previously made top 8 three years on the bounce. Ralph got 52 points from a team that had just had the previous two seasons narrowly avoiding relegation. I hate to think you consider context "spinning it". Also why do you keep crying about the 9-0 results? It's two freak results in an otherwise good tenure. I'm sorry they bother you so much but from a purely results based stand point its not that much worse than a 3-0 loss, a hit to the GD to be sure but rarely does that come into play when deciding league position.

Net spend over 5 years we are bottom, net spend over 10 we are second bottom. I said it in the above comment. Not sure how its particularly hard to grasp, or what you mean by "what is it, 5? 10?". The team has been underfunded over the last decade, and especially over the last five years.

Our chance of getting relegated is like 40/1 in the odds. It's very very unlikely. Sometimes unlikely things do happen, such is how statistics work, so no one would "look like clowns" but its nothing to get worked up about now.

No one worships him, we observe he has had a good win rate and has given a good identity to us, as well as having markedly improved us since we took over. We think people who write that off after a small bad patch of a couple of months after a full year of being a quality side are a bit reactionary. It only seems "cult-like" because you have come to a conclusion based off a very small data set and are getting a bit upset when people try to refer to the bigger picture, that he has a good PPG across his time here given the investment. 

Have I just read this right 

“Also why do you keep crying about the 9-0 results? It's two freak results in an otherwise good tenure. I'm sorry they bother you so much but from a purely results based stand point its not that much worse than a 3-0 loss, a hit to the GD to be sure but rarely does that come into play when deciding league position.”

a 9-0 loss is not much worse than a 3-0 loss. You did say that didn’t you? Fuck me. That’s mental even by your standards 

[CB Fry]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Yeah but it as a good eleventh and a bad eighth. Or something.

If i had one criticism of Puel its that he really under used Lallana, Lovren, Wanyama, Lambert, Shaw, Mane, Pelle and Schneiderlin.

[danjosaint]

Yes we get it we haven't a decent team like we've had but as mentioned countless times it's not just the 2 9v0s it's the manner they happened, no other team managed by anyone else would have lost like that doesn't matter if its Burnley, Wba, Sheff Utd, Fulham even Norwich, Stoke, Watford.  Not only those 2 games but we've let in 50 odd goals only 2nd to Wba, we also capitulated at Leeds, that could've been 6 or 7 and city went easy on us in 2nd gear to get 5, we are so awful at the back, dull weak and uninspiring in midfield and hit and miss up front, the zonal marking, highline on freekicks , passing around the back aimlessly when we're no good at it in the hope it pulls the opposition out of shape,  its bollocks, the opposing managers just tell there team not to get sucked in and we're screwed as we then don't know what to do, I do like Ralph but lose to Bournemouth and not pick up wins against Burnley/Wba/Fulham then he has to go 

[Billy the Kidd]

7 hours ago, Streaky said:

I honestly think the only reason hassenhuttl is still here is because we can't afford to sack him. I think we will stay up this season but we are on a slippery slope and I'm already fearing what next season will bring.

Hopefully we can wheel and deal and get a few bargains in and somehow replace Ings. Just don't know where our high pressing game has gone, when we went top of the league we were bullying teams into mistakes and suffocating there midfield, when did we last do that to anybody.

We've had injuries but it shouldn't change the way you play and the smaller squad was Ralph's idea. Something isn't right at the club that's for sure.

Yeah, for now I'm all for keeping Ralph,  but as much as winning is a habit, so is losing. 

If we start next season poorly, I can see a change happening then but not before  

I do however think it will be ok and we'll turn this around over the next 5 games.

[TWar]

The absolute hysteria in this thread, and the desperation not to judge someone on their entire tenure rather than just a couple of freak results and a 12 game bad spell (before which we beat the champions mind you). Ralph inherited a squad that spent two seasons fighting for survival and since then has had the least investment of any team in the league and has that team fighting at a mid table standard. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for some of you but fortunately the board are sufficiently intelligent and not myopic to not sack someone based off that.

Puel took a team that just finished 6th and made 8th by virtue of an easy league with only 46 points. It's not about a "good 11th" and a "bad 8th", Ralph got more points than Puel with a much worse team.

[CB Fry]

12 minutes ago, TWar said:

The absolute hysteria in this thread, and the desperation not to judge someone on their entire tenure rather than just a couple of freak results and a 12 game bad spell (before which we beat the champions mind you). Ralph inherited a squad that spent two seasons fighting for survival and since then has had the least investment of any team in the league and has that team fighting at a mid table standard. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for some of you but fortunately the board are sufficiently intelligent and not myopic to not sack someone based off that.

Puel took a team that just finished 6th and made 8th by virtue of an easy league with only 46 points. It's not about a "good 11th" and a "bad 8th", Ralph got more points than Puel with a much worse team.

It's not hysterical to say Ralph is just a very average manager for us and as it stands his time will be looked back on a bit like Dave Jones.

Middling, about par working under a poor owner/leadership. Ralph won't exceed Dave Jones best this season with what can only be described as 100% his team, his tactics  his signings. No hysterics, just a unremarkable Southampton season so far. Let's see how tomorrow goes.

Secondly it's pretty batshit nuts to write off two 9-0s as freaks nothing to do with our manager.

It's not an accident or freak that no other Premier League manager has delivered that in the entire history of the division.

You're dismissing it because you're a sycophant but that's fine, just admit it.

 

[SKD]

13 minutes ago, TWar said:

The absolute hysteria in this thread, and the desperation not to judge someone on their entire tenure rather than just a couple of freak results and a 12 game bad spell (before which we beat the champions mind you). Ralph inherited a squad that spent two seasons fighting for survival and since then has had the least investment of any team in the league and has that team fighting at a mid table standard. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for some of you but fortunately the board are sufficiently intelligent and not myopic to not sack someone based off that.

Puel took a team that just finished 6th and made 8th by virtue of an easy league with only 46 points. It's not about a "good 11th" and a "bad 8th", Ralph got more points than Puel with a much worse team.

This isn’t a who’s better, Ralph or Puel thread. They’re both very different managers with very different styles.

I prefer Ralph’s style, but Anyone who called for Puel to be sacked cannot try and defend Ralph and argue for him to remain. I bet it’s the same people as well. 
 

1 win in 12 is absolutely pathetic. Football is a tough gig. Managers know that. One day you’re a hero, the next your a loss away from getting the sack. Look at Ranieri at Leicester.  

[TWar]

Just now, CB Fry said:

It's not hysterical to say Ralph is just a very average manager for us and as it stands his time will be looked back on a bit like Dave Jones.

Middling, about par working under a poor owner/leadership. Ralph won't exceed Dave Jones best this season with what can only be described as 100% his team, his tactics  his signings. No hysterics, just a unremarkable Southampton season so far. Let's see how tomorrow goes.

Secondly it's pretty batshit nuts to write off two 9-0s as freaks nothing to do with our manager.

It's not an accident or freak that no other Premier League manager has delivered that in the entire history of the division.

You're dismissing it because you're a sycophant but that's fine, just admit it.

 

The team that is 100% his team only has 5 permanent signings since he joined? With two of them being young players clearly signed for the future. Seems weird to call it 100% his team when he has had next to no backing to build a team. And I didn't say the two 9-0's have nothing to do with the manager. I said that two freak results don't dismiss 90 league games where we have been markedly better than the proceeding 3 years.

[SKD]

Just now, TWar said:

The team that is 100% his team only has 5 permanent signings since he joined? With two of them being young players clearly signed for the future. Seems weird to call it 100% his team when he has had next to no backing to build a team. And I didn't say the two 9-0's have nothing to do with the manager. I said that two freak results don't dismiss 90 league games where we have been markedly better than the proceeding 3 years.

I’m sick of seeing this as an excuse. Ralph knew the score when he signed and then renewed his contract. Lack of backing wasn’t an issue 5-6 months ago, in fact people were claiming that he wouldn’t want to leave us because he enjoys working with smaller and no big name in the squad. 

[TWar]

2 minutes ago, SKD said:

This isn’t a who’s better, Ralph or Puel thread. They’re both very different managers with very different styles.

I prefer Ralph’s style, but Anyone who called for Puel to be sacked cannot try and defend Ralph and argue for him to remain. I bet it’s the same people as well. 
 

1 win in 12 is absolutely pathetic. Football is a tough gig. Managers know that. One day you’re a hero, the next your a loss away from getting the sack. Look at Ranieri at Leicester.  

Puel was no where near the quality of Ralph, inherited a much better team, and bought two players that season who were above our previous transfer record and got 46 points. Ralph inherited a team that nearly got relegated, brought in Che Adams and Djenepo, and secured 52 points. It's not even comparable. The fact the league was stronger last year than in 17/18 is really eclipsing how much better we are under Ralph and the points reflect that. 1 win in 12 is a bad run of 12 games. Fortunately not everyone judges people on their most recent 2 months and conveniently forgets the preceding 12 months where we had the 5th most points in the league. 

[TWar]

Just now, SKD said:

I’m sick of seeing this as an excuse. Ralph knew the score when he signed and then renewed his contract. Lack of backing wasn’t an issue 5-6 months ago, in fact people were claiming that he wouldn’t want to leave us because he enjoys working with smaller and no big name in the squad. 

Lack of backing has always been a problem. No one has ever said we are doing better because we spend less money. What are you on about? It wasn't an issue 5-6 months ago because Ralph was overperforming. If that got your standards up, lower them. We will not always be performing at a top 6 level with a bottom three investment, don't expect it. And certainly don't throw your toys out the pram at the very person who's success lead you to have this spoiled attitude. 

[SKD]

1 minute ago, TWar said:

Puel was no where near the quality of Ralph, inherited a much better team, and bought two players that season who were above our previous transfer record and got 46 points. Ralph inherited a team that nearly got relegated, brought in Che Adams and Djenepo, and secured 52 points. It's not even comparable. The fact the league was stronger last year than in 17/18 is really eclipsing how much better we are under Ralph and the points reflect that. 1 win in 12 is a bad run of 12 games. Fortunately not everyone judges people on their most recent 2 months and conveniently forgets the preceding 12 months where we had the 5th most points in the league. 

“Puel was nowhere near the quality of Ralph”

well that’s an opinion and not a fact as you’ve tried to make it sound. If you actually check the stats, they have a very similar record for us in terms of win %. Puels is actually slightly better. 
 

“The fact the league was stronger last year than in 17/18 is really eclipsing how much better we are under Ralph and the points reflect that”

Again an opinion. I don’t know how you could judge that. I’d actually argue it was weaker given the covid break and then the constant run of games after. It was battle of the fittest in some cases rather than any real ability. 
 

“1 win in 12 is a bad run of 12 games. Fortunately not everyone judges people on their most recent 2 months and conveniently forgets the preceding 12 months where we had the 5th most points in the league.” 

Right, okay. So at what point do you decide he’s not longer the right man? Or do you keep him forever, despite relegation, because ‘we had a good 12 months in 2020’. I bet Liverpool are gutted they sacked Rodgers to bring in klopp. I mean did you not see he got them to second in the league?!?!

[JustinSFC]

I (personally) at that time, thought we should have stuck with Puel and I was one of the few in my circle that thought so.

I think if we'd stuck with him we might have been a difficult side to play against.

The fans just didn't like him because he didn't fist bump and wear a cap like Klopp.

[TWar]

1 minute ago, SKD said:

“Puel was nowhere near the quality of Ralph”

well that’s an opinion and not a fact as you’ve tried to make it sound. If you actually check the stats, they have a very similar record for us in terms of win %. Puels is actually slightly better. 
 

“The fact the league was stronger last year than in 17/18 is really eclipsing how much better we are under Ralph and the points reflect that”

Again an opinion. I don’t know how you could judge that. I’d actually argue it was weaker given the covid break and then the constant run of games after. It was battle of the fittest in some cases rather than any real ability. 
 

“1 win in 12 is a bad run of 12 games. Fortunately not everyone judges people on their most recent 2 months and conveniently forgets the preceding 12 months where we had the 5th most points in the league.” 

Right, okay. So at what point do you decide he’s not longer the right man? Or do you keep him forever, despite relegation, because ‘we had a good 12 months in 2020’. I bet Liverpool are gutted they sacked Rodgers to bring in klopp. I mean did you not see he got them to second in the league?!?!

I'd sack him if he performed worse than another manager could give us. I personally think taking this squad to consistent mid table finishes after we fought relegation before he arrived and invested the least in the league is a very good result. If we perform at the level of our investment then I think we are in serious trouble, I believe Mark Hughes is an average manager and had us performing about the quality of the squad. We would need someone much much better than average to top Ralph, considering the backing he's had. I don't think we will get that. Klopp was much much better than Rodgers so the sacking made sense, he was one of the biggest names in world football at the time. If we have Ancelotti, Rose, Touchel waiting in the wings then yeah, consider Ralph out. But at the moment Ralph is massively exceeding the backing he's had and it would take someone pretty special to do better with this lot. And someone pretty special isn't coming.

If Ralph's points per game drop to relegation form over a long long period (say 6 months, not two) and we can get someone actually quality in who we believe can exceed the squad quality, then we fire him. But not when he is still getting mid table with these funds, and not for the sort of managers we could attract to replace him. No way.

[SKD]

13 minutes ago, TWar said:

I'd sack him if he performed worse than another manager could give us. I personally think taking this squad to consistent mid table finishes after we fought relegation before he arrived and invested the least in the league is a very good result. If we perform at the level of our investment then I think we are in serious trouble, I believe Mark Hughes is an average manager and had us performing about the quality of the squad. We would need someone much much better than average to top Ralph, considering the backing he's had. I don't think we will get that. Klopp was much much better than Rodgers so the sacking made sense, he was one of the biggest names in world football at the time. If we have Ancelotti, Rose, Touchel waiting in the wings then yeah, consider Ralph out. But at the moment Ralph is massively exceeding the backing he's had and it would take someone pretty special to do better with this lot. And someone pretty special isn't coming.

If Ralph's points per game drop to relegation form over a long long period (say 6 months, not two) and we can get someone actually quality in who we believe can exceed the squad quality, then we fire him. But not when he is still getting mid table with these funds, and not for the sort of managers we could attract to replace him. No way.

“I'd sack him if he performed worse than another manager could give us”

1 win in 12. That’s worse than any other manager we’ve had previously, so I think it’s fair to say that any other manager could do just as well, if not better. 

“If Ralph's points per game drop to relegation form over a long long period (say 6 months, not two)” 

You don’t get 6 months of being absolutely shite in the PL if you want to survive. 6 months is then too late. So you’d only sack him if we get relegated. 

You keep going on about this long period of time, you seem to be conveniently forgetting that we showed relegation form before a freak run, during freak circumstances in 2020.

2 months left of the season, if we get dragged in to the bottom 3, unlikely, but that’s down to the other teams and not us, would you still defend him?

“and we can get someone actually quality in who we believe can exceed the squad quality”

Getting someone who can change current form from 1 win in 12 would be a good place to start. 
 

“But not when he is still getting mid table with these funds, and not for the sort of managers we could attract to replace him. No way.”

Why did you want Puel sacked then? He wasn’t given a war chest, he pretty much worked under the same conditions. Yet managed to achieve above mid-table... 

 

It’s okay to admit that Ralph is just the hipsters choice. Let it go. 

Edited 19 March, 2021 by SKD

[Toadhall Saint]

14 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

I (personally) at that time, thought we should have stuck with Puel and I was one of the few in my circle that thought so.

I think if we'd stuck with him we might have been a difficult side to play against.

The fans just didn't like him because he didn't fist bump and wear a cap like Klopp.

Don’t forget the style of football. I was ok with him staying tbh but as you say most match going fans were not 

[TWar]

16 minutes ago, SKD said:

“I'd sack him if he performed worse than another manager could give us”

1 win in 12. That’s worse than any other manager we’ve had previously, so I think it’s fair to say that any other manager could do just as well, if not better. 

“If Ralph's points per game drop to relegation form over a long long period (say 6 months, not two)” 

You don’t get 6 months of being absolutely shite in the PL if you want to survive. 6 months is then too late. So you’d only sack him if we get relegated. 

You keep going on about this long period of time, you seem to be conveniently forgetting that we showed relegation form before a freak run, during freak circumstances in 2020.

“and we can get someone actually quality in who we believe can exceed the squad quality”

Getting someone who can change current form from 1 win in 12 would be a good place to start. 
 

“But not when he is still getting mid table with these funds, and not for the sort of managers we could attract to replace him. No way.”

Why did you want Puel sacked then? He wasn’t given a war chest, he pretty much worked under the same conditions. Yet managed to achieve above mid-table... 

 

It’s okay to admit that Ralph is just the hipsters choice. Let it go. 

I know you keep wanting to focus on this specific 12 games to an almost comical degree, but you know there was football before that right? If we sacked a manager every time their form dropped for a couple of months we'd be like Watford, grabbing a manager every 6 months or so. I don't want that, I want stability and Ralph has earned stability with 12 straight months of great form. So its not ok to call two results freak results but 12 whole months and 38 games of football in 2020 is a freak run. Madness, and a complete misunderstanding of the concept of sample size. And Puel was sacked because we still had a good team at that point with VvD, Tadic, Forster, Fonte all starting the season and big money signings of Boufal, Gabbiadini, Hojbjerg and Redmond all being added. All of these players went backwards and flopped under Puel or left.

Ralph had a much worse team with much less spent on it. Standards are lower. Also Puel didn't really improve anyone or galvanise the team. Ralph has worked wonders with JWP, Vestergaard, Armstrong, Bednarek, ect. who all looked absolutely rubbish under previous management. Got to be honest, I don't know what "the hipsters choice" means in the context of football. It just sounds like meaningless buzzwords.

Edited 19 March, 2021 by TWar

[stevy777_x]

27 minutes ago, SKD said:

“I'd sack him if he performed worse than another manager could give us”

1 win in 12. That’s worse than any other manager we’ve had previously, so I think it’s fair to say that any other manager could do just as well, if not better. 

“If Ralph's points per game drop to relegation form over a long long period (say 6 months, not two)” 

You don’t get 6 months of being absolutely shite in the PL if you want to survive. 6 months is then too late. So you’d only sack him if we get relegated. 

You keep going on about this long period of time, you seem to be conveniently forgetting that we showed relegation form before a freak run, during freak circumstances in 2020.

2 months left of the season, if we get dragged in to the bottom 3, unlikely, but that’s down to the other teams and not us, would you still defend him?

“and we can get someone actually quality in who we believe can exceed the squad quality”

Getting someone who can change current form from 1 win in 12 would be a good place to start. 
 

“But not when he is still getting mid table with these funds, and not for the sort of managers we could attract to replace him. No way.”

Why did you want Puel sacked then? He wasn’t given a war chest, he pretty much worked under the same conditions. Yet managed to achieve above mid-table... 

 

It’s okay to admit that Ralph is just the hipsters choice. Let it go. 

Lol yeah a freak run, 3rd best team in PL in whole of 2020, what a freak run! 🤣🤣🤣

what a clown

[SKD]

6 minutes ago, TWar said:

I know you keep wanting to focus on this specific 12 games to an almost comical degree, but you know there was football before that right? If we sacked a manager every time their form dropped for a couple of months we'd be like Watford, grabbing a manager every 6 months or so. I don't want that, I want stability

Yes, I know there was football before and I also know that, until 2020, we were still pretty average. As I’ve said before, football is a pretty ruthless business and any manager in the world to go 1 win in 12 is very very lucky to still be in a job, so yes, I will continue to go on about it, because it’s very relevant. In fact; he’s lucky he didn’t get sacked after the first 9-0.

We want the same thing, I repeat, I’m not suggesting I want Ralph sacked. I want him to turn it around (lose tomorrow and I’m Ralph out). I’m starting to have doubts in Ralph’s ability to get the best out of this team though. His methods seemingly are no longer working and I don’t like his reluctance to change. I fear for next season. 

I’m just pointing out that those who criticised Puel, cannot start to defend Ralph and not appear to be very hypocritical. 

Do I think Ralph is a good manager? Yes.

Do I think he has some Serious faults and isn’t the Messiah some saints fans think he is? Yes. 

Do I think he’s the right man for us? Benefit of the doubt, yes. Starting to doubt though. 
 

out of interest, if you were a West Ham fan, next season if They win 1 in 12 and are lingering around the bottom 3, would you say Moyes deserves to go? 

[SKD]

12 minutes ago, stevy777_x said:

Lol yeah a freak run, 3rd best team in PL in whole of 2020, what a freak run! 🤣🤣🤣

what a clown

Were clearly not the 3rd best team in the country, are we. so yes, it was a freak run. It’s also the longest Ings has gone without an injury playing so many games and the most goals he’s scored in a season, pretty much all from that spell.  
 

unless of course you don’t think it was an overachievement which would then mean that we underachieving... right? 

Edited 19 March, 2021 by SKD

[TWar]

Honestly I think the whole thing will be pretty irrelevant. We aren't going down this summer and I think there is a very good chance we get bought this summer. It is a good idea to keep consistency during such a handover and, fingers crossed, if our new owners want to pump some money in Ralph has already shown he can take a smaller team who suddenly has a lot of money to the big leagues with RB Leipzig so hopefully that will be the case. If our new owners are tight I personally think Ralph has also shown he can secure safety and good football on a shoestring budget so i think he'd be valued for that too. 

[JustinSFC]

38 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Don’t forget the style of football. I was ok with him staying tbh but as you say most match going fans were not 

Ha mate. It was nowhere near as bad as the got with Pellegrino.
 

I've had a season ticket since 2010 and sat with the same group for 8 of them and it never got as bad as Pellegrino.
 

It was so depressing going to games and the only reason I was going, was because of the best part of £500 quid my ticket costs and if the club had offered me a refund and I could have STILL retained my seat, I would have taken it in a heartbeat and the stadium would have been half empty every game.

Puel's football wasn't edge of your seat stuff but you could at least see what he was trying to do.

Coming back to Ralph, the thing that's planting it at his doorstep for me is him making it abundantly clear he wanted a small squad and it's grating on me to now hear him say there squad isn't big enough.

 

[JustinSFC]

9 minutes ago, TWar said:

Honestly I think the whole thing will be pretty irrelevant. We aren't going down this summer and I think there is a very good chance we get bought this summer. It is a good idea to keep consistency during such a handover and, fingers crossed, if our new owners want to pump some money in Ralph has already shown he can take a smaller team who suddenly has a lot of money to the big leagues with RB Leipzig so hopefully that will be the case. If our new owners are tight I personally think Ralph has also shown he can secure safety and good football on a shoestring budget so i think he'd be valued for that too. 

To the exception of Burnley and their recent buyout, I can't think of there ever being a takeover and the current manager has stayed in post.

Usually these takeovers bring in their own pick.

And Dyche I don't think will be there next season.

Unless it's someone like Redbull buying us, just as an example and Ralph's history with them, if we get taken over this summer, I'm not anticipating going into next season with Ralph.

That's just my take on it.

[TWar]

2 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

Ha mate. It was nowhere near as bad as the got with Pellegrino.
 

Coming back to Ralph, the thing that's planting it at his doorstep for me is him making it abundantly clear he wanted a small squad and it's grating on me to now hear him say there squad isn't big enough.

 

Pellegrino and Puel were both bad to watch, it's not mutually exclusive. And Ralph wanted a small quality squad, we have about 12-13 prem quality players, he is probably hoping for closer to 20. There is "small" and there is this, small but also the back ups are just straight bad. Finally, we live in unprecedented times, when he said he wanted a smaller squad he probably wasn't thinking "oh but what if there is a global pandemic which shortens the season, thus massively increasing fixture congestion and removing our access to our recover chambers, I'd need a bigger squad if that happened". Kinda a hard one to predict.

[SKD]

8 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

To the exception of Burnley and their recent buyout, I can't think of there ever being a takeover and the current manager has stayed in post.

Usually these takeovers bring in their own pick.

And Dyche I don't think will be there next season.

Unless it's someone like Redbull buying us, just as an example and Ralph's history with them, if we get taken over this summer, I'm not anticipating going into next season with Ralph.

That's just my take on it.

You can spin it how you like, but The only reason Ralph is still in a job is because we have a absent owner who wants to do the bare minimum to keep us up before he can sell the club, coupled with the fact we cannot afford to sack him hastily. 
 

Ralph will Be in a job, seemingly under no pressure, until we drop into the bottom 3. 
 

99% of owners and chairman across global football would not put up with this recent run. 

[SKD]

15 minutes ago, TWar said:

Pellegrino and Puel were both bad to watch, it's not mutually exclusive. And Ralph wanted a small quality squad, we have about 12-13 prem quality players, he is probably hoping for closer to 20. There is "small" and there is this, small but also the back ups are just straight bad. Finally, we live in unprecedented times, when he said he wanted a smaller squad he probably wasn't thinking "oh but what if there is a global pandemic which shortens the season, thus massively increasing fixture congestion and removing our access to our recover chambers, I'd need a bigger squad if that happened". Kinda a hard one to predict.

Hard to predict, yes. But surely, when you are aware of the demands and the issues around recovery you change your style, to perhaps less physically demanding to suit. He hasn’t. 
 

That’s not ownerships fault, that’s not the players fault, that’s the managers fault. 

[TWar]

14 minutes ago, SKD said:

You can spin it how you like, but The only reason Ralph is still in a job is because we have a absent owner who wants to do the bare minimum to keep us up before he can sell the club, coupled with the fact we cannot afford to sack him hastily. 

Ralphs still in a job because he did very well for a long period of time and has been doing badly for a comparatively much shorter period of time and people who know what they are doing don't assume someone has lost all ability every time they have a couple of months of poor form. That is a fan mentality, and not a clever fan mentality at that.

[TWar]

10 minutes ago, SKD said:

Hard to predict, yes. But surely, when you are aware of the demands and the issues around recovery you change your style, to perhaps less physically demanding to suit. He hasn’t. 
 

That’s not ownerships fault, that’s not the players fault, that’s the managers fault. 

It very much is ownerships fault. Ralph has a style that works great and has us way overperforming the quality of our side. If he had proper investment we could rotate the squad and keep playing this great football, but we don't so we can't. When he is forced not to play the way we want to then we drop to the actual quality of the squad and are suddenly in trouble.