The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?

[egg]

47 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/13/tax-authorities-should-prosecute-evaders-keir-starmer

Based on the fact that Rayner has clearly lied and can't decide which property she lives in... Starmer is going to have fun with this one 😄

As I said yesterday, that's your interpretation. 

There's these things called facts. Try focusing on them mate. 

[Whitey Grandad]

38 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

But this isn't tax evasion. It's tax avoidance.

Unless...

[whelk]

28 minutes ago, egg said:

As I said yesterday, that's your interpretation. 

There's these things called facts. Try focusing on them mate. 

It’s almost irrational how worked he has got

[egg]

56 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Based on the article in the Telegraph, it appears they are denying ever given her the advice and the records show they dont have the relevant advice in-house. She did say she got advice from 3 sources though.

Joanna Verrico, the managing director, told The Telegraph: “We acted for Ms Rayner when she purchased the flat in Hove. We did not and never have given tax or trust advice. It’s something we always refer our clients to an accountant or tax expert for.

“The stamp duty for the Hove flat was calculated using HMRC’s own online calculator, based on the figures and the information provided by Ms Rayner. That’s what we used, and it told us we had to pay £30,000 based on the information provided to us. We believe that we did everything correctly and in good faith. Everything was exactly as it should be.

“We probably are being made scapegoats for all this, and I have got the arrows stuck in my back to show it. We are not an inexperienced firm, but we’re not qualified to give advice on trust and tax matters and we advise clients to seek expert advice on these.”

Great response from them. Every conveyancing firm will always say that they can't give tax advice, and that the client should seek it. Doesn't help Rayner one bit. 

[Farmer Saint]

43 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Unless...

Unless what? They are different things entirely. She will either be charged with fraud, or nothing. Tax evasion is using illegal tax methods to gain a tax advantage. Tax avoidance is legally minimising your tax liability through legal tax loopholes. Fraud (in this situation) is wilful misrepresentation of information to gain financially.

Edited Thursday at 18:47 by Farmer Saint

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

Unless what? They are different things entirely. She will either be charged with fraud, or nothing. Tax evasion is using illegal tax methods to gain a tax advantage. Tax avoidance is legally minimising your tax liability through legal tax loopholes. Fraud (in this situation) is wilful misrepresentation of information to gain financially.

Yep. 'Unless she was fraudulent'

[rallyboy]

6 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Whereas you’ve been entirely consistent 😂😂😂

 

Most people have seen I'm happy debating with anyone sensible on here and I'm not one to resort to personal insults, I know a few posters personally and they're cool.

But you stand alone.

On a previous thread you mistook me for someone else, got elderly and confused and called me a paedophile supporter - a serious accusation that dropped you and the website right up to your armpits in shit.

You then ran away and hid for a bit rather than making an apology.

For that reason and so many others, I will not be taking any fucking lessons from you, so don't bother to quote me again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gloucester Saint]

On 03/09/2025 at 16:03, egg said:

I'd tell her to avoid residential conveyancing completely. No real law involved, full of admin, they're the front line of money laundering, etc. All for shit fees. 

Agree with all of that - but even having the skills and background to do it myself, when we have, we’ve found in a chain that the other buyers who are using them, that the conveyancers deliberately go on a go-slow much to everyone’s annoyance as a protest. 

[hypochondriac]

14 hours ago, rallyboy said:

Where did I say her tax avoidance is okay?  I called for her to be sacked.

And no, they're not as slimy as the last lot yet - Labour still have a way to go before having a charge sheet as long as the last government. Anyone can see that. 

 

Not exactly the adults back in the room or the grown ups being I charge again is it? Not being as bad as the Tories -still time of course -is hardly a ringing endorsement of this party.

[hypochondriac]

It shouldn’t be controversial to say that those who make the law can’t break the law. But we have to set the bar far higher than that. Our country is stuck in a dangerous rut. Everywhere you look things are broken. And nothing gets fixed. People say to me when they look at those running the country, they see a group of people totally detached from reality, whose words mean nothing, and who put their own interest first.

what you will always get from me is someone who believes honesty and integrity matter.

 

 

[rallyboy]

9 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Not exactly the adults back in the room or the grown ups being I charge again is it? Not being as bad as the Tories -still time of course -is hardly a ringing endorsement of this party.

Indeed it's not, the country needed positive change and while the task of turning around a crashed oil tanker takes time, Rayner has brought the bridge into disrepute. There are signs of improvement in some departments, but not enough.

If things do not 'get better' in the next year, we all have a problem, because there is no viable positive option left to get adults with policies in the room, other than Lib Dems and Green, and I'm not sure they have the skills required to salvage the UK.

 

 

[sadoldgit]

She’s gone

[tdmickey3]

Just now, sadoldgit said:

She’s gone

Shame really, she was a good one but rules are rules

[Gloucester Saint]

Inevitable really - double standards but Prescott found that he had to be squeaky clean as a working class senior minister under Blair, hence the desperate ‘two Jags’ garbage dredged up by the non-doms and their gimps, sorry editors, at the red tops. 

Ironically if was another party critics would be accused of envy - but it’s the right decision on balance. 

I had far more of an issue with that mess of a local government review on council mergers which wasn’t properly costed under her watch. I thought that was dreadful. But since Brexit people’s priorities are just weird. 

Edited Friday at 11:13 by Gloucester Saint

[Farmer Saint]

Shame, but she had to go.

At the same time a lot of people were not keen on her, so think it may actually help the Labour party.

[Turkish]

Guess it was a case of resign or be sacked. 

I'm sure if she was a Tory this place would be full of people incandescent with rage about how all they care about is themselves, Tory scum etc but as shes Labour it's all a shame really. We know how it works.

Edited Friday at 11:14 by Turkish

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, Turkish said:

Guess it was a case of resign or be sacked. 

I'm sure if she was a Tory this place would be full of people incandescent with rage about how all they care about is themselves, Tory scum etc 

I think the Labour Party would’ve created an equal amount of pressure and noise but the right leaning posters would’ve accused them of envy. Summary - lots of noise all round.

She had to go really and the review reporting as early as today when confirmed last night was a hint in primary colours to the media that’s what was going to happen. 

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Shame, but she had to go.

At the same time a lot of people were not keen on her, so think it may actually help the Labour party.

Inevitable after Shoosmiths response,  essentially suggesting that she was, at best, disingenuous in saying that they advised her.

Ultimately she fell on the sword of her stated standards. 

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Guess it was a case of resign or be sacked. 

I'm sure if she was a Tory this place would be full of people incandescent with rage about how all they care about is themselves, Tory scum etc but as shes Labour it's all a shame really. We know how it works.

I think the difference is that she came into politics for the right reasons, to help people. I don't think you can say the same for a lot of the Tory party.

[Lord Duckhunter]

13 hours ago, rallyboy said:

so don't bother to quote me again.

Ok. 😂😂

[aintforever]

22 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Shame, but she had to go.

At the same time a lot of people were not keen on her, so think it may actually help the Labour party.

This. I liked her but can see how she was not popular with many voters - Starmer should be able to use this to his advantage long term.

[Saint86]

Interested to see what happens now, and whether Streeting fills the void or someone more on the left of Labour. Streeting has been very quiet until now, but potentially stands to gain a lot from this whole thing.

Edited Friday at 11:45 by Saint86

[AlexLaw76]

Rachel from Account to be promoted?

Great opportunity for Labour move her (and that lunatic Milliband) away from their current positions.

 

Just read that Raynor is quoted in saying she regretted not seeking tax advice? I thought she got advice from 3 different sources? Also, she failed to 'heed the caution' with the legal advice she did see. So it appears this was a conscious, even deliberate, effort to save £40k. 

Seemingly, she tried to game the system and fucked up - despite telling us all we have to pay our share etc

Edited Friday at 11:55 by AlexLaw76

[Lord Duckhunter]

25 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Inevitable really - double standards but Prescott found that he had to be squeaky clean as a working class senior minister under Blair,

What double standards? A Tory minister would have gone for exactly the same offence. Prescott was banging his secretary, plenty of Tories got as much clog for similar. 
 

The only double standards I see here are people claiming this is different, that she was somehow hounded out for being “working class”. Don’t forget, this is the second dodgy property transaction she’d been involved in, the first one would have sunk a lot of other politicians. 
 

1 year, and we’ve had Lord Ali, The anti corruption minister going for corruption allegations, a cabinet member lying about being a solicitor, an mp beating up a constituent,  and now this. Is pretty hard to imagine a worse start to a Government and we haven’t even had the clusterfuck of their second budget. 
 

Adults back in room 😂😂😂

[Lord Duckhunter]

So she was told to get specific tax advice, but didn’t. 
 

Bit different from what her and her supporters were saying earlier in the week. Instead of coming clean, she tried to blame others. 
 

 

[Saint86]

12 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Rachel from Account to be promoted?

Great opportunity for Labour move her (and that lunatic Milliband) away from their current positions.

 

Just read that Raynor is quoted in saying she regretted not seeking tax advice? I thought she got advice form 3 different sources? 

Seemingly, she tried to game the system and fucked up - despite telling us all we have to pay our share etc

The crocodile tears can't hide the fact that after this shit storm was discovered, she's tried to claim that she was given financial advice that said she was paying the correct amount and scapegoat the conveyancers. This was something she's claimed retrospectively and is a lie, especially as she's sought advice and was actually advised to speak to a specialist tax adviser. I get it, that was probably a desperate attempt from her to try and save her career at at stressful time, but just another example where she's failed to show adequate integrity. She's gone now - that will satisfy most interested parties and stop people looking further into whether this was deliberately done, why she lied about the advice she was given after the fact, and why she sold her house to her son's care trust for an inflated amount. Has she accepted the ghost is up and is falling on her sword to escape greater scrutiny? Probably.

Edited Friday at 11:58 by Saint86

[Gloucester Saint]

13 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What double standards? A Tory minister would have gone for exactly the same offence. Prescott was banging his secretary, plenty of Tories got as much clog for similar. 
 

The only double standards I see here are people claiming this is different, that she was somehow hounded out for being “working class”. Don’t forget, this is the second dodgy property transaction she’d been involved in, the first one would have sunk a lot of other politicians. 
 

1 year, and we’ve had Lord Ali, The anti corruption minister going for corruption allegations, a cabinet member lying about being a solicitor, an mp beating up a constituent,  and now this. Is pretty hard to imagine a worse start to a Government and we haven’t even had the clusterfuck of their second budget. 
 

Adults back in room 😂😂😂

They’ve not been very good and she should’ve gone, although the track record from the Conservatives and Reform is no better, have a quick look at the clusterfuck they’re already presiding over in local government. It’s so bad Private Eye has a large round up of it every 2 weeks. I’m buying one later so I’ll post it for everyone to see.

When Zahawi and others got exposed there were posts on here about the politics of envy and how taxation was wrong (also see the Footballers fraud case thread on the main site)

We’ve had issues - Huhne, Smith, tuition fees but us and the Greens are the only clean parties around. Unfortunately we will never win power solo because of Brexit even though the hard Brexit has fucked the economy lube free. 

Edited Friday at 12:02 by Gloucester Saint

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So she was told to get specific tax advice, but didn’t. 
 

Bit different from what her and her supporters were saying earlier in the week. Instead of coming clean, she tried to blame others. 
 

 

Indeed. Conveyancers always tell clients to get tax advice. They move deeds and money around and register at HMLR. That's it. They don't do tax, although they'll submit the clients SDLT return for them. When Shoosmiths explained the reality, she was toast. 

[Wade Garrett]

Labour government, just as sleazy as the Tory one.

Sick of both these parties.  Totally incompetent and total shithouses.

Starmer should get rid of that idiot chancellor as well, and replace them with the best people for the job - regardless of whether they’re MP’s or not.  There is such a dearth of talent in Westminster, it’s time to think outside the box.

[Turkish]

43 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I think the difference is that she came into politics for the right reasons, to help people. I don't think you can say the same for a lot of the Tory party.

None of them give a shit about anyone. It's time people stopped deluded themselves about this.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Wade Garrett said:

Labour government, just as sleazy as the Tory one.

Sick of both these parties.  Totally incompetent and total shithouses.

Starmer should get rid of that idiot chancellor as well, and replace them with the best people for the job - regardless of whether they’re MP’s or not.  There is such a dearth of talent in Westminster, it’s time to think outside the box.

When we've had PPE type scandals you'll have a point. Until then, we just have a few rogues. 

[Sir Ralph]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

When we've had PPE type scandals you'll have a point. Until then, we just have a few rogues. 

One year into Government only and all these scandals. I agree that PPE was a big scandal but you need to compare this to the Tories who were in power for 14 years, when referring to their scandals (scandal per year ratio). I think its naive to think they are any better than other parties. 

Edited Friday at 12:08 by Sir Ralph

[Gloucester Saint]

12 minutes ago, Turkish said:

None of them give a shit about anyone. It's time people stopped deluded themselves about this.

Pretty much, Reform fucking doesn’t either. Lib Dem’s and Greens are cleaner but Brexit has caused a schism on the former and Reform types and what’s left of the Tories are climate sceptics on the latter.

The public also has to grow up about the fact that if you pay peanuts..you know the rest. They are also housed in an asbestos riddled shithouse which looks nice coming into Waterloo but is horrific and dangerous close up.

If we want the outside talent @Wade Garrett wants then it won’t come cheap and even then, do they want the hassle that comes with it? And the danger - Cox, Amess. 

I’m reading former Tory Chief Whip and Minister Simon Hart’s book about how increasingly poor quality the politicians are and how the country is becoming more volatile and ungovernable.

Summary - good democracy in the public interest, and the mechanisms to remove bad apples costs money. Plus resources to scrutinise it properly. But in my view, much better VFM in the long-run and will ensure public priorities are met, unlike now. 

Edited Friday at 12:17 by Gloucester Saint

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

One year into Government only and all these scandals. I agree that PPE was a big scandal but you need to compare this to the Tories who were in power for 14 years, when referring to their scandals (scandal per year ratio). I think its naive to think they are any better than other parties. 

Fundamentally disagree. Forget numbers per year, PPE was a rape and pillage exercise that we're all paying for. I ain't paying Rayner's bit of tax. She will. 

[Gloucester Saint]

6 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

One year into Government only and all these scandals. I agree that PPE was a big scandal but you need to compare this to the Tories who were in power for 14 years, when referring to their scandals (scandal per year ratio). I think its naive to think they are any better than other parties. 

Big? https://www.spotlightcorruption.org/covid-19-inquiry-and-ppe/

https://www.open-contracting.org/2024/09/09/was-uks-covid-ppe-procurement-even-worse-than-we-thought-new-analysis-raises-more-red-flags/

https://goodlawproject.org/firms-who-supplied-unusable-ppe-are-still-raking-in-cash-from-nhs-contracts/

Not defending Rayner, she had to go by her own standards, and although a Lib Dem voter, if I had voted Labour I’d be disappointed so far.

[Farmer Saint]

24 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So she was told to get specific tax advice, but didn’t. 
 

Bit different from what her and her supporters were saying earlier in the week. Instead of coming clean, she tried to blame others. 
 

 

I'm not sure many people were defending her, and we're actually saying they were waiting for the full story. I know I said immediately that she should go.

[Lord Duckhunter]

11 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

So it appears this was a conscious, even deliberate, effort to save £40k. 

Exactly what it was. 
 

Beyond belief that the housing minister failed to follow up on advice given during a property transaction. I bet she would have done had there been a potential saving of 40k involved. 
 

She also knew full well she didn’t follow the recommendation to get specialist advice when she claimed she was following advice. That’s more damning for me, she basically tried to cover it up and pass the buck. 

[Gloucester Saint]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Exactly what it was. 
 

Beyond belief that the housing minister failed to follow up on advice given during a property transaction. I bet she would have done had there been a potential saving of 40k involved. 
 

She also knew full well she didn’t follow the recommendation to get specialist advice when she claimed she was following advice. That’s more damning for me, she basically tried to cover it up and pass the buck. 

It was silly, and only she knows why she did. Millions of others do but they aren’t Deputy PM or Deputy Party Leader in opposition.

[Sir Ralph]

33 minutes ago, egg said:

Fundamentally disagree. Forget numbers per year, PPE was a rape and pillage exercise that we're all paying for. I ain't paying Rayner's bit of tax. She will. 

 

30 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Big? https://www.spotlightcorruption.org/covid-19-inquiry-and-ppe/

https://www.open-contracting.org/2024/09/09/was-uks-covid-ppe-procurement-even-worse-than-we-thought-new-analysis-raises-more-red-flags/

https://goodlawproject.org/firms-who-supplied-unusable-ppe-are-still-raking-in-cash-from-nhs-contracts/

Not defending Rayner, she had to go by her own standards, and although a Lib Dem voter, if I had voted Labour I’d be disappointed so far.

Like I said PPE was a big scandal and the Tories suffered because of it. I'm no fan of them nowadays. Proportionality the impact of PPE was greater in terms of financial financial impact than the Labour issues to date of course.

This is also about confidence in Government and its judgement - multiple cabinet ministers have lied and been caught only within the space of one year. 

The Governments actions instil little confidence in them (Rayners actions included), particularly with a critical budget coming up which, if they continue to make a mess of things, will cost the country far more than the PPE scandal. To the outside world we must look like things are out of control and unstable, much more so than under the tories.

Edited Friday at 12:45 by Sir Ralph

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

I think the difference is that she came into politics for the right reasons, to help people. I don't think you can say the same for a lot of the Tory party.

Came into politics to help people and leaves the front bench with loads of money and in disgrace having failed to help people and having cost the taxpayer money it can ill afford.

[LuckyNumber7]

49 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Rachel from Account to be promoted?

Great opportunity for Labour move her (and that lunatic Milliband) away from their current positions.

 

Just read that Raynor is quoted in saying she regretted not seeking tax advice? I thought she got advice from 3 different sources? Also, she failed to 'heed the caution' with the legal advice she did see. So it appears this was a conscious, even deliberate, effort to save £40k. 

Seemingly, she tried to game the system and fucked up - despite telling us all we have to pay our share etc

Do as we say, not as we do.

[AlexLaw76]

Her salary is now what £90k-odd

she now has a £40k tax bill, a large fine, and significant mortgage payments on her £800k home, let alone the cost of the lease. Does she contribute financially to their other property she has interest in?

she is going to be skint beyond belief 

Edited Friday at 12:39 by AlexLaw76

[iansums]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

I think the difference is that she came into politics for the right reasons, to help people. I don't think you can say the same for a lot of the Tory party.

Come on, that's just a lazy comment. 

[Farmer Saint]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Came into politics to help people and leaves the front bench with loads of money and in disgrace having failed to help people and having cost the taxpayer money it can ill afford.

I think "loads of money" is a bit of an exaggeration, and when you say cost the taxpayer money, do you mean from a wages POV?

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, iansums said:

Come on, that's just a lazy comment. 

Why? 

[Gloucester Saint]

9 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Her salary is now what £90k-odd

she now has a £40k tax bill, a large fine, and significant mortgage payments on her £800k home, let alone the cost of the lease. Does she contribute financially to their other property she has interest in?

she is going to be skint beyond belief 

Just like the rest of us then. I shake my head at the state of politics and politicians whether it’s here or overseas. 

[Sir Ralph]

7 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Just like the rest of us then. I shake my head at the state of politics and politicians whether it’s here or overseas. 

Unfortunately this appears to be systemic. Until there is some sort of overhaul of the system or the types of people that are elected, we are going to bounce from crap party to crap party. Whilst there are some good individuals,  none of the parties are fit to run the country as their ethics and backbone are sadly lacking. 

Edited Friday at 12:56 by Sir Ralph

[OldNick]

23 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

 

Like I said PPE was a big scandal and the Tories suffered because of it. I'm no fan of them nowadays. Proportionality the impact of PPE was greater in terms of financial financial impact than the Labour issues to date of course.

This is also about confidence in Government and its judgement - multiple cabinet ministers have lied and been caught only within the space of one year. 

The Governments actions instil little confidence in them (Rayners actions included), particularly with a critical budget coming up which, if they continue to make a mess of things, will cost the country far more than the PPE scandal. To the outside world we must look like things are out of control and unstable, much more so than under the tories.

It seems there was a scandal re PPE but if you take yourselves back to that time where it looked like the world was coming to the end and the media were telling us that we didnt have gowns etc for the doctors and nurses, the Gov had to get them at any cost. There were many who took advantage, and sadly there were not the systems or ability at that time to check all the contracts. I recall the Gov asking any engineers etc to make incubators etc. It was wholesale panic, yes we can be wise after the event but there were many civil servants who didnt have the supplies ready in the event or foresight.

Anyway I have lost faith in all political parties, my father said to us when we were kids under Harold Wilson ( the last time we had to go cap in hand to IMF) that they were all there to feather their own nests, that was the 1970's. 

 

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, Sir Ralph said:

Unfortunately this appears to be systemic. Until there is some sort of overhaul of the system or the types of people that are elected, we are going to bounce from crap party to crap party. None of them are fit to run the country as their ethics and backbone are sadly lacking. 

Thing is, if we want more Andy Streets and Andy Burnhams (maybe just more Andy’s?) with the right background, they won’t all do it out of public duty like those two. Street was a very good Mayor, reached out to other parties, I’ve met him, top guy and proper One Nation Tory. We have to pay what the best leaders earn in all sectors where you find them (and it is a mix having worked across sectors). 

Then people moan at the salaries yet an HR Director at say IBM or in the NHS earns more than the PM. 

[OldNick]

23 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Her salary is now what £90k-odd

she now has a £40k tax bill, a large fine, and significant mortgage payments on her £800k home, let alone the cost of the lease. Does she contribute financially to their other property she has interest in?

she is going to be skint beyond belief 

She will get plenty of money from after dinner speeches and book deals, and dont worry she will be parachuted back into a ministers job very quickly. 

She likes to be seen as a person of the people (working class ), as if thats a badge of honour, most people dont want to be seen as that, as soon as the BMW is on the drive they want to be middle class.