Watford 2-2 Saints - Match Thread

[Midfield_General]

33 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

This is the normal Bazunu argument, it's the same thing. They're not howlers, he doesn't drop howlers. He just lets in goals, all the time, every week, which make you think ''could he have done better there?''. Maybe, maybe not. But given that we ask the same questions every week, I'd say a good % of the goals he lets in should be saved by a competent GK.

I'm not going to micro-analyse the goals today, apart from say that he looked like a midget in the goal when that free kick was taken - he had no leap because he had too far to travel to that site of the goal. 

He's going go down in the ages as a GK who doesn't make howlers, but also doesn't really make any notable saves.

Absolutely spot on. 

Stekelenburg was the same in the prem. Never made any terrible mistakes, never made any really good saves. Just 6/10 every week. Aggressively average. A pot of grey paint wearing gloves. 

Edited Saturday at 17:04 by Midfield_General

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

All of you guys blaming 3 at the back for our midfield woes (which I get) but you're forgetting the big issue which really put us and Still on the back foot from kick off: Mr f**king chicken livers hearing about a bid for him and packing up 

 

 

Having not seen the build up, is this true?

[Football Special]

22 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Don’t think the free kick could be stopped. His positioning was poor but really, really good placement and connection from Irankunda. Very good signing by Watford.

First goal was Bazunu and the defence and midfield though, far too slow to close and should be getting that past the post.

Looked much better with Alex in goal midweek and no brainer for anyone who knows their football for him to be in goal v Skates. 

It was miles out though? Should have had time to adjust his position and perhaps get a hand to it 

[Football Special]

5 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Having not seen the build up, is this true?

Would be odd, he was in the starting line up when team sheets handed in, then 15 mins later he was "ill" 

[The Kraken]

38 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

This is the normal Bazunu argument, it's the same thing. They're not howlers, he doesn't drop howlers. He just lets in goals, all the time, every week, which make you think ''could he have done better there?''. Maybe, maybe not. But given that we ask the same questions every week, I'd say a good % of the goals he lets in should be saved by a competent GK.

I'm not going to micro-analyse the goals today, apart from say that he looked like a midget in the goal when that free kick was taken - he had no leap because he had too far to travel to that site of the goal. 

He's going go down in the ages as a GK who doesn't make howlers, but also doesn't really make any notable saves.

I would genuinely love to hear what specialist advice or instruction our managers past and present receive from our GK coaching team regarding Baz. Because we’ve been saying exactly this since he signed for us. Tgat we still say it week after week after week is so concerning.

[S-Clarke]

Just now, The Kraken said:

I would genuinely love to hear what specialist advice or instruction our managers past and present receive from our GK coaching team regarding Baz. Because we’ve been saying exactly this since he signed for us. Tgat we still say it week after week after week is so concerning.

Not the same GK coach either. Dean Thornton, Andrew Sparkes and now Ruben - all different coaching setups, different types of GK coach, different mangers...same frigging decision to pick this guy.

What do the performance analysts do when they highlight the goals we let in? It's impossible not to think that his inclusion is a club strategy and the coaching staff have no say in the selection.

[die Mannyschaft]

32 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Disagree about the CB's, THB and Stephens way too easily bullied. Wood and Quarshie aren't good enough. Edwards is a nothing player. The loan market would provide us with better options, wouldn't lose any sleep if any of them went. If we are looking for a leader on the pitch, I think Ben Mee is still a free agent, we could do a lot worse and offer him a year's deal.

Saints are a soft team, we need all the players at back to be  aggressive, on front foot, clearance defenders, read whats a head and those in front to sort it. Watford are a good indicator of where we are, similar to them, there is always a chance to score but allways let goals in.

[Galway saint]

8 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

💯

Given far too much space and time with the shot but at EFL level, League 2 and upwards, that simply has to be turned past the post. Keeper error fair and square.

Free kick was brilliant placement and ideal connection, poor positioning but even Ramsdale ain’t stopping that. Great execution. 

I suspect Baz will continue until around Xmas and by that time Still will have had enough and McCarthy will play for the rest of the season.  The clubs isn’t prepared to give up on this ‘project’ so we have to endure another season of this. 

 

[Saint Fan CaM]

4 minutes ago, Football Special said:

It was miles out though? Should have had time to adjust his position and perhaps get a hand to it 

Not only was it miles out, but the ball hit the net a little over half-way up, so had he positioned himself better (and didn’t have concrete legs) he might have had a fighting chance to save it.

[Pamplemousse]

Baz isn't the issue. The poor defending is.

Everyone seems to have forgot the Wrexham and Ipswich saves already

Edited Saturday at 17:12 by Pamplemousse

[Gloucester Saint]

3 minutes ago, Football Special said:

It was miles out though? Should have had time to adjust his position and perhaps get a hand to it 

Even then I think he’d have been in the net with it. Sometimes the quality of what the opposition does is too good, albeit it happens slightly less at this level. Would have been a good idea to not concede yet another stupid free kick in the first place as well. Conceded far too many and deserved to concede from one.

But the first goal is pure Bazunu and really poor. Defence and midfield stood off, decent strike but should never be going in and at EFL level going around the post for a corner. Even at my other team, Torquay’s level, Be. Hamer would be very disappointed to concede the first as would Paul Wotton his manager.

But Paul doesn’t have untouchables at his club. 

 

[Football Special]

2 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

I would genuinely love to hear what specialist advice or instruction our managers past and present receive from our GK coaching team regarding Baz. Because we’ve been saying exactly this since he signed for us. Tgat we still say it week after week after week is so concerning.

Russell Martin's outburst defending Baz at the fans forum is still one of his weirdest moments and that's saying something 

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, Pamplemousse said:

Baz isn't the issue. The poor defending is.

Agree to a large extent and some of the criticism last week was a bit much. 

The first goal today is mainly him though. Was given too much space to get the shot off clearly but at EFL level, including L2, a basic save. 

[Football Special]

Overall I thought you could see Watford were inexperienced team there for the taking against a better organised side. Once again we were all over the place at times and sloppy passing gifting them several chances to hit us on the break

 Goes down as a poor result on Still's record 

[Yozzman]

35 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

With the Baz free kick, I think two things are true. It was crap positioning from Baz, he got nowhere near it. But it was also a stunningly good free kick. I don’t think Bazunu gets to that even if he starts properly in the centre of the goal.

 

 

Nobody saves that free kick. Anyone who thinks so is deluding themselves. 

[Football Special]

3 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Agree to a large extent and some of the criticism last week was a bit much. 

The first goal today is mainly him though. Was given too much space to get the shot off clearly but at EFL level, including L2, a basic save. 

6 goals conceded in 4 games, not good at all. 

[Patches O Houlihan]

2 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Overall I thought you could see Watford were inexperienced team there for the taking against a better organised side. Once again we were all over the place at times and sloppy passing gifting them several chances to hit us on the break

 Goes down as a poor result on Still's record 

So bearing in mind the players that travelled, and Flynn getting 'ill' 15 mins before the match, and having trained with a back 3 for a month, what would you have done Poch?

[Harry_SFC]

Flynn Downes with yet another stomach issue. That's 3 times since he's been here. 

[Football Special]

2 minutes ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

So bearing in mind the players that travelled, and Flynn getting 'ill' 15 mins before the match, and having trained with a back 3 for a month, what would you have done Poch?

Hi Will,

Thanks for checking in. 

I wouldn't have played a back 5 allowing Watford to dominate the midfield for periods of the game. 

 

[O_Lord_Marian]

Just now, Harry_SFC said:

Flynn Downes with yet another stomach issue. That's 3 times since he's been here. 

Imagine shifting Downes, THB, Manning and Bazunu this window. The Russell Martin curse will be lifted.

[Harry_SFC]

Just now, O_Lord_Marian said:

Imagine shifting Downes, THB, Manning and Bazunu this window. The Russell Martin curse will be lifted.

I certainly wouldn't be against that 

[Dr Who?]

1 hour ago, Saint NL said:

Stephens doing his hard man act

Pulling hair again? 

[saint francis]

10 minutes ago, Yozzman said:

Nobody saves that free kick. Anyone who thinks so is deluding themselves. 

Agreed.  If there must be a scapegoat I'd rather pick Charles for giving away the free kick in that area.  It was a poor challenge.  

[M271]

Taking the should he have saved the first goal or not argument out of it, it seems typical that for 2 league games in a row one of the oppositions few shots on target have been so accurately placed just inside the far post. I know that it’s all about what ifs but if those shots had only been a foot wider the last 2 results and points accumulated would be so different (we shouldn’t have allowed them to get into those positions though).

P.S. do we know why Will was so angry after the final whistle with the opposition management team.

Edited Saturday at 17:32 by M271

[Football Special]

Downes dropping out did leave us with a makeshift midfield to be fair,  Charles, Robinson and  Fraser didn't give is much physical presence 

[Dr Who?]

Disappointing management from the dugout and on the pitch

Disappointing defending

Disappointing Goalkeeping

Disappointing Finishing from open play again. 

Disappointing 5 at the back. 

I think we still need at number 1, a real ball winner midfielder, hard man, as we are very lightweight still. Probably need a proper centre back and main striker. 

In other words we are still very short of a promotion ‘team’. We have brought in some more flair players, but we need to toughen up through the middle of the team, as our core is very weak and that is worrying. You should have these players in place to be successful. 

I fear we will be bullied into defeat in 2 weeks, unless we action these weak areas. 

I have done my coaching badge. You need a strong keeper, centre defender, central midfielder ball winner and centre forward who is going to bag you 15 goal upwards. We just like trying to fix things with fancy players. We have no excuses, we have the money and we need to fix these shortcoming now! 

when does the window close? 

[Patches O Houlihan]

17 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Hi Will,

Thanks for checking in. 

I wouldn't have played a back 5 allowing Watford to dominate the midfield for periods of the game. 

 

So who's playing midfield for you today.

[LGTL]

7 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Downes dropping out did leave us with a makeshift midfield to be fair,  Charles, Robinson and  Fraser didn't give is much physical presence 

It gave us no physical presence. We were bullied in midfield all afternoon really. 

[S-Clarke]

9 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

Disappointing management from the dugout and on the pitch

Disappointing defending

Disappointing Goalkeeping

Disappointing Finishing from open play again. 

Disappointing 5 at the back. 

I think we still need at number 1, a real ball winner midfielder, hard man, as we are very lightweight still. Probably need a proper centre back and main striker. 

In other words we are still very short of a promotion ‘team’. We have brought in some more flair players, but we need to toughen up through the middle of the team, as our core is very weak and that is worrying. You should have these players in place to be successful. 

I fear we will be bullied into defeat in 2 weeks, unless we action these weak areas. 

I have done my coaching badge. You need a strong keeper, centre defender, central midfielder ball winner and centre forward who is going to bag you 15 goal upwards. We just like trying to fix things with fancy players. We have no excuses, we have the money and we need to fix these shortcoming now! 

when does the window close? 

Window shuts on 7pm on Monday. 

We'll bring in a full back, and dependant on some attacking options leaving, we'll grab a winger too. I cannot see us adding a GK, CB, CM or ST. Think we've sorted those areas, well the club think so.

[Sheaf Saint]

17 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Downes dropping out did leave us with a makeshift midfield to be fair,  Charles, Robinson and  Fraser didn't give is much physical presence 

Downes doesn't give us any physical presence either, so I'm not sure him dropping out last minute really made much difference.

[Football Special]

2 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Window shuts on 7pm on Monday. 

We'll bring in a full back, and dependant on some attacking options leaving, we'll grab a winger too. I cannot see us adding a GK, CB, CM or ST. Think we've sorted those areas, well the club think so.

Sad thing is GK and ST have needed addressing for a long time 

Downs won't be a prolific scorer this season of that I am certain 

[Appy]

Shout out to Watford for making it as difficult as possible to get into their away end by the way, absolute shambles. 

[Football Special]

5 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Downes doesn't give us any physical presence either, so I'm not sure him dropping out last minute really made much difference.

He does tend to make more interceptions though , are we putting all our eggs in this German u21 basket? 

[Gloucester Saint]

30 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Flynn Downes with yet another stomach issue. That's 3 times since he's been here. 

Get him some Imodium. And keep him away from chicken livers and grills. 

Watford not the best ground for us, Long’s record early goal apart, going back to the Lawrie and Keegan era, and thought we’d lose so better than I thought. Bit of a gap to the top but not insurmountable with a run of wins, momentum can build up quickly in this league. September 2023 was far worse and our major transfer window signing was injured last time. 

Skates game a 6 pointer though, no excuses on that. All we can do is make it a cauldron of noise as Tom Fellows asks of us. 

[Gloucester Saint]

5 minutes ago, Appy said:

Shout out to Watford for making it as difficult as possible to get into their away end by the way, absolute shambles. 

Not the first time that’s happened there either, big queues previous visits.

[SWLondon Saint]

For everyone moaning about Bazunu, you could look at the goals we scored today - 1st one, keeper and defenders playing musical statues, 2nd one, keeper's side of the goal, always the likely option from so close, absolutely must be saved - or the goal Johansson gifted WBA to lose that game for Stoke...

[skintsaint]

9 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

 

Watford not the best ground for us,

Thats the last 10 games unbeaten there now 😅

[Patches O Houlihan]

9 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Get him some Imodium. And keep him away from chicken livers and grills. 

Watford not the best ground for us, Long’s record early goal apart, going back to the Lawrie and Keegan era, and thought we’d lose so better than I thought.

According to Adam Blackmore we haven't lost at Vicarage Road since 2007 - and we didn't today either

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, skintsaint said:

Thats the last 10 games unbeaten there now 😅

Lot of draws and remember Boxing Day under Burley, stuffed 3-0 and could have been several more. Lost under Jones 3-2 when Watford went down by miles. And League Cup hammering under Wigley or one of Lowe’s minions. 

[Gloucester Saint]

2 minutes ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

According to Adam Blackmore we haven't lost at Vicarage Road since 2007 - and we didn't today either

As posted below, might be a generational thing, if you’ve started supporting Liebherr onwards it’s not a bad ground but for the 00s it wasn’t good. And I was there for some of those defeats, the League Cup was especially grim, 5-2 when we were PL and they were mid-lower Champ. And the Boxing Day walloping.

[Sheaf Saint]

2 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Lot of draws and remember Boxing Day under Burley, stuffed 3-0 and could have been several more. Lost under Jones 3-2 when Watford went down by miles. And League Cup hammering under Wigley or one of Lowe’s minions. 

One of those draws was when Doucoure literally punched the ball into the net for a late equaliser (pre-VAR) and not one of the officials spotted it.

[Gloucester Saint]

3 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

One of those draws was when Doucoure literally punched the ball into the net for a late equaliser (pre-VAR) and not one of the officials spotted it.

2-2 I think was under Pellegrino?

Certain grounds for certain eras. If you supported since Liebherr, you’ve probably never seen us lose at Hillsborough. But for decades we didn’t and got some hidings. Lost there consistently when Wilkinson managed them - at home to them as well - 5-2 humping over Easter, 5-0 in the Champ. Was there for a 1-0 win under Hoddle which contributed to sending them down though. 

[BarberSaint]

Bazinga sets himself up. Legs apart. Static. Waiting for a shot, just like me might in training. And waits and then reacts and dives from that fixed position. Just like in training. He doesn't move or act like a natural goalkeeper, just like an athlete put in goal which is what he is. Doesn't move his feet, just waits and reacts. Get rid.

[Sheaf Saint]

19 minutes ago, Football Special said:

He does tend to make more interceptions though , are we putting all our eggs in this German u21 basket? 

He has a terrible habit of cancelling out those interceptions though, by giving the ball away again incredibly cheaply having won it back.

[skintsaint]

Just now, Gloucester Saint said:

If you supported since Liebherr,

I'm not, but to say its not a good ground when we now haven't lost there in the last 10 games is a bit silly. I think around the 00's they humped us at home as well, maybe they were just a better team at that time as that was when we were at our lowest ebb.

[Patches O Houlihan]

4 minutes ago, BarberSaint said:

Bazinga sets himself up. Legs apart. Static. Waiting for a shot, just like me might in training. And waits and then reacts and dives from that fixed position. Just like in training. He doesn't move or act like a natural goalkeeper, just like an athlete put in goal which is what he is. Doesn't move his feet, just waits and reacts. Get rid.

Who??

You're in no position to be critiquing him for attention to detail...

[skintsaint]

1 minute ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

Who??

You're in no position to be critiquing him for attention to detail...

[Gloucester Saint]

2 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

I'm not, but to say its not a good ground when we now haven't lost there in the last 10 games is a bit silly. I think around the 00's they humped us at home as well, maybe they were just a better team at that time as that was when we were at our lowest ebb.

It’s perception. We haven’t won there much and I’ve been quite a few times to watch Saints. Don’t like Selhurst either where I’ve also been a lot but our record there isn’t too bad and Dellhurst in 99. I don’t fear us going there but it’s a pleasant surprise when we do win. Carrow and Loftus Road for example are much happier hunting grounds. 

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

Sat down at half time saying Archer was having a good game, Azaz ok, Wee man was making a nuisance of himself and generally felt we were in control against a bang average Watford side.

But there's almost an arrogance that's crept in to the team where they feel they're the big fish. They were actually quite sloppy in the second half. Of the subs, Matsuki came on and was good and Stewart seemed to get involved in his cameo but when Downs and AA came on together, you knew it wasn't going to end well.

[Harry_SFC]

5 minutes ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

Sat down at half time saying Archer was having a good game, Azaz ok, Wee man was making a nuisance of himself and generally felt we were in control against a bang average Watford side.

But there's almost an arrogance that's crept in to the team where they feel they're the big fish. They were actually quite sloppy in the second half. Of the subs, Matsuki came on and was good and Stewart seemed to get involved in his cameo but when Downs and AA came on together, you knew it wasn't going to end well.

AA is another I wouldn't give a stuff about if he was sold before the deadline. Feel like I'm saying this about so many players.

In fact Fernandes and Ramsdale were the only two players I really had any positive feelings towards. The rest, couldn't care less. 

Edited Saturday at 18:46 by Harry_SFC