Saints 3-2 WBA - Match Thread

[SWLondon Saint]

22 minutes ago, Thripp87 said:

For me it’s the best outcome last night. A win, but with plenty of learning and points to analyse for our still rookie manager.

For what it’s worth I think he is spot on taking Scienza off when he is and with the score at 3-0. He if kept fit can take us up, we have no chance of promotion with him injured for any considerable length of time. I’ve never seen a player get fouled as often as him either.

6 wins in 7 and still helmets digging at Tonda. Expect you were demanding an unrealistic option or “other” as the next manager 6 weeks ago. 

I also agree with taking off Scienza as early as possible to protect him - actually I think he could've come off at halftime as it's sometimes easier for a sub to come on then and get up to speed in the game.

No-one (well, very few) is 'having a go' at Tonda, people are just rightly concerned at the terrible defending / second half when West Brom deserved to come away with a point except for a terrible miss at the end there.

I don't agree that having a 'Ben Mee type' would make the difference UNLESS they can also tell the midfield to stop camping on top of the box and get further up and out. If you let as many crosses as we do come into the box, sooner or later you're going to concede no matter how good you are at heading it just based on luck.

[Chez]

11 hours ago, Vancouver Saint said:

Bazunu simply not good enough - what keeper at this level cannot command his 3-yard box in the middle of the goal for corners?

I am not a fan of his, and I have stated he was 'weak', but plenty of keepers in the Premier League have had issues at set pieces this season with opposing teams packing the six yard box and making it very difficult for the keeper to move around/command the six yard box. For the second goal there was a WBA backing into him making it almost impossible to get to the cross. That tactic is problem for lots of keepers, not just Baz.

[Chez]

11 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

Thought Downes was excellent again.

Great win.  Just a bit critical of our wing backs when we’re under the cosh - none of them - Manning, Fellows or Frazer can defend.  Would have preferred Edwards to come on and play the right side when Fellows was subbed.

How good was that first half though.

Edwards offers a little more height at the back post, but not sure he is great at full back. He knows how to defend, but has he got the pace to prevent wingers getting crosses in? When is Roserslev fit? 

[Chez]

40 minutes ago, SWLondon Saint said:

If you let as many crosses as we do come into the box, sooner or later you're going to concede no matter how good you are at heading it just based on luck.

That's a very good point. Got to stop the source. First half we are pressing their defenders and midfield causing them to turn the ball over. Without that press, we allow the opponent to get into our third far too easily and then we basically rely on the three CBs to win headers. 

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

I agree, but I think Tonda will work this out.  He brought Edwards on Saturday when Fellows was getting beaten and we looked a lot stronger at the back for it.  I think it was a mistake to put Frazer instead of Edwards last night but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

We dont have a fit right back at the moment do we? Agree that bring Frazer on was probably a mistake but to tighten up a bit you'd think when Rostev and Elert are fit they'll be the ones to come on.

[CheshireSaint]

Intensity and momentum. We start with intensity and very quickly build momentum. This combination is blowing teams away in the first half. Scienza and Armstrong are key to this and it is up to the opposition has to somehow, resist this momentum and reduce the intensity. Harder said than done. Well, it should be. However, by taking Scienza and Armstrong off, the opposition doesn't need to work out a way, we do it for them. The rest of our team then adopt a more negative demeanour and allow the opposition to build their own intensity and momentum and we in turn struggle to resist them. WBA's better second half performance was nothing to do with the ability of Ryan Mason and all to do with the inability of Tonda.

Tonda has done brilliantly so far but that second half was shockingly terrible. I understand anyone would struggle maintaining such high tempo football for 90 mins but Tonda needs to find away of slipping out of top gear, into something more effective than neutral. Sublime to Steady, not Sublime to Ridiculous. If we consider Sublime as the final third, Steady as the middle third and Ridiculous as the defensive third; we need to ensure we go from the attacking third, into the middle third instead of conceding the middle third and allowing the opposition to press us constantly in the defensive third. Hopefully the return of Charles, a fitter Romeu and Bragg over Aribo (why is he insisting on him) will help this. Cramming the defence isn't the answer, as the opposition is already there, thanks for the invite.

Replacing Scienza with Robinson doesn't help us maintain the tempo nor does it particularly bolster the midfield. Similarly, replacing Armstrong with Archer has the same effect. It significantly weakens one area but doesn't improve any other. Utterly pointless substitutions. Replacing them in combination just doubles the effect. Take Scienza off and replace with Bragg for instance, weakens the attack but strengthens the midfield which should only aid the defence. Point being, we can consolidate the attack when 3 up, as long as we strengthen in the middle and prevent offering the momentum on a plate to the opposition. If we then take off Armstrong for Archer, the impact is lessened as we don't need Archer to track back as much (he doesn't) as we have an additional midfielder in there. Archer can then concentrate on playing on the shoulder of their last defender, giving them something to consider when thinking of committing players forward, chasing the game.

[Jack]

5 minutes ago, Chez said:

Edwards offers a little more height at the back post, but not sure he is great at full back. He knows how to defend, but has he got the pace to prevent wingers getting crosses in? When is Roserslev fit? 

Neither Fraser or Manning were able to stop the crosses from coming in either so I’d have taken the height and defensive instinct in that situation. 
 

Very ropey subs last night. We were getting overrun and needed to see it out, 5’2 Fraser against a physical side, plus Aribo and Romeu when really we needed some legs in the middle. But got there in the end and the first half was top class. Sure Tonda will keep learning from these, if we make mistakes and still get the 3 points then it can be a positive if he learns from it 

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

 

Tonda reaction

 

• Very positive to win 4 at home in a row
• We need the supporters to bring some games home and well done to those at St Marys
• Tremendous from the fans 

I think he’s being a little generous there, if we’re gonna knock the second half performance (and it wasn’t good) then we should knock the ‘support’ too.

I was expecting a real buzz around last night, but 75% of the ground was its usual comatose state and the Northam rarely got going together, mostly one side singing one thing and the other something completely different.

I’m not overly worried about the ‘singing’ but more about just making some noise and roaring the team on a bit more. We’re now making it a fortress regards results but nothing like an intimidating place for visitors.

[Football Special]

8 minutes ago, TheAlehouseBrawlers said:

I think he’s being a little generous there, if we’re gonna knock the second half performance (and it wasn’t good) then we should knock the ‘support’ too.

I was expecting a real buzz around last night, but 75% of the ground was its usual comatose state and the Northam rarely got going together, mostly one side singing one thing and the other something completely different.

I’m not overly worried about the ‘singing’ but more about just making some noise and roaring the team on a bit more. We’re now making it a fortress regards results but nothing like an intimidating place for visitors.

Last few minutes crowd woke up a bit but for most of the 2nd half if felt like the crowd and players were just clock watching 

[Bakovnetski]

11 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

I'm with you on Quarshie, he scares the living daylights out of me. He's like a rabbit in headlights out there when put under any form of pressure.

Sometimes you can spot a good player - like Fellows, Azaz, Jander, Leo (irrespective of age), but this guy looks like a bit of a dud.

I think we need to give him some time yet to adapt to the Championship style and pace versus what he has developed under so far in Germany. He's only getting the odd game at the moment so for a youngster (which he is) it's still a learning curve and tough for one off games. He's not like Downs who is definitely not up to scratch to even play and learn in my opinion, he's a definite prospect that needs some support. To take the view that he's a dud already is premature. 

[OldNick]

First half we were ok but hardly fantastic,we took advantage of a sublimepass by Azaz, a great runby Fellows and a defenders mistake. Their keeper hardly had to make a save.

2nd half we just surrendered midfield and decided to play along the back. Jander looked tired, Robinson came on and did nothing. Frazer ran a lot but was ineffective.

We still need a bigforward to hold the ball up so that the defence can clear the ball up to him and we can build from there.

Baz is not my choice, he yet again let one in on his left and did seem to be too close to his near post, I havent seen the replay of their 2nd but he seemed weak but may have been fouled. McCarthy was better at dealing with these situations as he would go and punch or catch.

Manning brillian clearance off the line, Baz a good tipover.

Oriol looked like an old man out there and really needs to get up to speed.

I dont understand why our midfield loses control, the return of Che may make a massive difference.

Flynn played ok.

Iagreed that Leo and Armstrong needed prtecting by coming off nd Archer gave his all, showed more zip than I seen him do at any time.

I believe Quarsie will become a top defender, and did little wrong. 

[Bakovnetski]

2 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

I didn't even realise Fraser had come on until deep into stoppage time, which kinda shows just how little he contributed. 

He was pretty ineffective last night, so you have to wonder about keeping him on.

[DellBlockH]

FWIW, I thought Aribo was OK last night, unlike all his other appearances this season. He put some effort in and won 50/50s. 

[Jack]

33 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Last few minutes crowd woke up a bit but for most of the 2nd half if felt like the crowd and players were just clock watching 

It seemed pretty clear we came out 2nd half to nullify the game, as has happened a fair bit recently, and it was reflected in the crowd. It’s a shame because at 3-0 up you’d hope it’d be a party in there, but it was going to be boring at best with no goals conceded, and tense at worst with goals conceded. 
 

Good noise at the end to get us over the line but it’s been really flat there recently even with the decent form 

[Midfield_General]

2 hours ago, Chez said:

Edwards offers a little more height at the back post, but not sure he is great at full back. He knows how to defend, but has he got the pace to prevent wingers getting crosses in? When is Roserslev fit? 

It’s not just physical attributes that are missing though. We really, really need an ‘organising’ defender who understands how to marshal a back line and who is highly vocal and makes sure everyone is doing their jobs, in the right place, stepping up at the right time, marking people etc. We don’t have anyone who can do that and it’s one of the reasons we’re a mess at the back. 

[OldNick]

1 hour ago, Jack said:

It seemed pretty clear we came out 2nd half to nullify the game, as has happened a fair bit recently, and it was reflected in the crowd. It’s a shame because at 3-0 up you’d hope it’d be a party in there, but it was going to be boring at best with no goals conceded, and tense at worst with goals conceded. 
 

Good noise at the end to get us over the line but it’s been really flat there recently even with the decent form 

For the crowd to be lifted you need effort from the team. At 3-0 I still dont relax and the start of the 2nd halfwe just surrendered space and let them onto us. This caused anxiety due to past scars. You just knew that we were going to let them back into the game and we needed somebody to take the game bythe scruff of the neck.

Tonda was trying to rally the fans towards the end and I feel the Northam were brilliant roaring us on at the end. 

In essence we need the players to show energy for the fans to lift, but we just went into our shells.

[OldNick]

3 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

It’s not just physical attributes that are missing though. We really, really need an ‘organising’ defender who understands how to marshal a back line and who is highly vocal and makes sure everyone is doing their jobs, in the right place, stepping up at the right time, marking people etc. We don’t have anyone who can do that and it’s one of the reasons we’re a mess at the back. 

Jack does do this but he has flaws. He is brave and Wood seems to have lost his way a bit, doesnt seem quite so determined as he was. 

We still allow the opposition to attack and get crosses in. To be fair I dont think WBA are as poor as people say, and apparently theyare a very energetic side and play till the end. Grant was decent all game and caused problems 

[Baird of the land]

1 hour ago, DellBlockH said:

FWIW, I thought Aribo was OK last night, unlike all his other appearances this season. He put some effort in and won 50/50s. 

As awful as he was previously, last night he was the needed experienced head.

[BERMUDASAINT]

3 hours ago, Chez said:

I am not a fan of his, and I have stated he was 'weak', but plenty of keepers in the Premier League have had issues at set pieces this season with opposing teams packing the six yard box and making it very difficult for the keeper to move around/command the six yard box. For the second goal there was a WBA backing into him making it almost impossible to get to the cross. That tactic is problem for lots of keepers, not just Baz.

WBA put a man on Baz for every cross, not one of our defenders helped out? That second goal, wba backed into him agressivly with both hand pulling on Baz jersey, they both collapsed in a heap. What happened to protecting the keeper, ref was weak on that!

[Cabrone]

Another exciting game and 1 point from playoffs now. WBA are a decent outfit so a win is welcome.

Stoke are away to Ipswich tonight so we may even move up a place after that game.

QPR are away to Boro on Sat so win at Norwich and we could be a playoff team on Sat. Would scarcely have believed it 4 weeks ago.

[derry]

We have established several patterns. We are now predictable. The first half hour, slick movement and breaks maybe score three goals. the next 15 mins more possession based preserve the lead and get to half time. All through the first half there was a common thread, pass the ball around at the back then slowly move forward and lose the ball before we reach half way. For all our possession most of the passes were in our own half and mostly the centre backs. Manning is a massive problem as he habitually passes back which in itself feeds the problem. He is hopeless defensively and often out of position not getting back. The second half we play passively for 15 minutes then take our best attackers off. That makes us even more passive whilst we lose the ball more having lost our outlets. The opposition know how we play and then press us. We then make more changes that only make the situation worse so for the last 20 minutes they are pretty much camped in our half.

Last night we could have lost that game. WBA forward completely messed up an open goal header by heading straight to Bazunu, anywhere else it was an easy chance then just before the end a low cross from the left was stepped over and left the right winger an easy chance but he fluffed it and fired into the Chapel. We survived a succession of corners and as at QPR were hanging on at the end. The second WBA goal was a blatant obstruction of Bazunu and should have been disallowed however well before that our team should have been into the referee and aggressively marked the WBA players before the ball came back into play. 

We have to stop this pattern or it is going to cost us against the better teams. Admittedly getting the injured players back may help but we have to be more combative in the second half. Backing off and putting numbers behind the ball just doesn't cut it especially having taken Scienza, Azaz, Armstrong, Fellows etc off leaving us with little attacking threat.

[saintant]

25 minutes ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

WBA put a man on Baz for every cross, not one of our defenders helped out? That second goal, wba backed into him agressivly with both hand pulling on Baz jersey, they both collapsed in a heap. What happened to protecting the keeper, ref was weak on that!

If he's not being helped and he thinks he needs to be it's up to Bazunu to make it known - he is allowed to open his mouth.

[tdmickey3]

7 minutes ago, derry said:

We have established several patterns. We are now predictable. The first half hour, slick movement and breaks maybe score three goals. the next 15 mins more possession based preserve the lead and get to half time. All through the first half there was a common thread, pass the ball around at the back then slowly move forward and lose the ball before we reach half way. For all our possession most of the passes were in our own half and mostly the centre backs. Manning is a massive problem as he habitually passes back which in itself feeds the problem. He is hopeless defensively and often out of position not getting back. The second half we play passively for 15 minutes then take our best attackers off. That makes us even more passive whilst we lose the ball more having lost our outlets. The opposition know how we play and then press us. We then make more changes that only make the situation worse so for the last 20 minutes they are pretty much camped in our half.

Last night we could have lost that game. WBA forward completely messed up an open goal header by heading straight to Bazunu, anywhere else it was an easy chance then just before the end a low cross from the left was stepped over and left the right winger an easy chance but he fluffed it and fired into the Chapel. We survived a succession of corners and as at QPR were hanging on at the end. The second WBA goal was a blatant obstruction of Bazunu and should have been disallowed however well before that our team should have been into the referee and aggressively marked the WBA players before the ball came back into play. 

We have to stop this pattern or it is going to cost us against the better teams. Admittedly getting the injured players back may help but we have to be more combative in the second half. Backing off and putting numbers behind the ball just doesn't cut it especially having taken Scienza, Azaz, Armstrong, Fellows etc off leaving us with little attacking threat.

Spot on, particularly the bit in bold

[Midfield_General]

3 hours ago, OldNick said:

Jack does do this but he has flaws. He is brave and Wood seems to have lost his way a bit, doesnt seem quite so determined as he was. 

You're right that he tries. Unfortunately though, Stephens' idea of leadership is to shout a lot, but he couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. He can't even organise himself. He's habitually out of position, and always watching the ball rather than his man, which he has been guilty of his entire career and at 31 is clearly never going to grow out of as a player. You need football intelligence to organise a defence, and he just doesn't have it. None of our current crop of defenders or keepers do. 

Fonte was amazing at it, from the moment he joined us in League One to when we were a good Premier league side. It's why Lovren looked like a world-beater when he was playing for us and then became a calamity when he went to Liverpool - when he went there he didn't have Jose constantly telling him what he needed to be doing. We need someone with the footballing intelligence of a Fonte in that back line. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Midfield_General

[Greedyfly]

10 hours ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

Blimey, someone is getting awfully upset just because you deem that I'm unhappy about Saints having won 6 out of 7.

Nowhere have I said that I am not. Bringing in the old you can't debate fallback is poor. I've tried to engage but you seem intent on scoring points. Also its nice of you to go back and add additional reasoning to your post regarding fatigue. That works both ways for teams.

Simply put, I don't see why Saints cant score a lot of goals in this league and when the opportunity comes they should go for it. Not sure why you cant accept that. Why fall back? Why not try to score a couple more against Charlton or Brum? 

Again I never said Saints should smash teams 7-0 every game. So a bit odd you know how I think. 

 

I'm not upset about anything champ, slept happy knowing we'd won our 6th game and that we'd 'smashed' at least 4 of the last 7 opponents.

 

You're the one whining we didn't smash another team by more than two goals and then bemoans the results against Brum and Charlton (F 8 , A 2 - PTS 6). Weird.

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

1 minute ago, Greedyfly said:

I'm not upset about anything champ, slept happy knowing we'd won our 6th game and that we'd 'smashed' at least 4 of the last 7 opponents.

 

You're the one whining we didn't smash another team by more than two goals and then bemoans the results against Brum and Charlton (F 8 , A 2 - PTS 6). Weird.

Thanks.

Odd that you're moaning about people moaning. 

Weird indeed.

[notnowcato]

West Brom were a much better team than the first half score suggested. We could have easily shipped one or two in the first half, and we were absolutely gifted a goal. 
 

Still think we would be more solid with 4 at the back, 2 holding and the bomb squad of Leo, Finn, Fellows and Adam ahead of that base. 

[SWLondon Saint]

40 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

West Brom were a much better team than the first half score suggested. We could have easily shipped one or two in the first half, and we were absolutely gifted a goal. 
 

Still think we would be more solid with 4 at the back, 2 holding and the bomb squad of Leo, Finn, Fellows and Adam ahead of that base. 

That's what I reckon as well. The problem at the moment is Fellows is forced to defend as a full back with Azaz ahead of him tracking back. Be better if Edwards was there with Fellows ahead of him.

Also most of the time when they have the ball, right now we have 3 CB standing in or around the penalty spot with at least 1 marking 'space'. And it's really hard to pick up the guys running forward from midfield into the box when you're back on your heels.

[Mr X]

20 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Yay! Only his second game as official head coach and already called out for not having a Plan B. Must be a record!

It's true though and clear we only have one way of playing from all his interim games 

[Stud mark of doom]

13 minutes ago, Mr X said:

It's true though and clear we only have one way of playing from all his interim games 

Although, if our one way of playing invariably involves us racing into a 3 or more goal lead inside the first 30 minutes of every match, playing some of the most aesthetically pleasing football we have seen in many a year, I could possibly get comfortable with it. 

[Hayling Saint]

Just now, Stud mark of doom said:

Although, if our one way of playing invariably involves us racing into a 3 or more goal lead inside the first 30 minutes of every match, playing some of the most aesthetically pleasing football we have seen in many a year, I could possibly get comfortable with it. 

Me too!

[Football Special]

Just read we are 2nd highest scorers in the division, blimey (before this evenings games) 

[Peter Douglas]

This is worth a read...

https://flip.it/CaRN.z

[Greedyfly]

2 hours ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

Thanks.

Odd that you're moaning about people moaning. 

Weird indeed.

Solid response as expected from someone who's initial comments were basically just wrong

Edited 55 minutes ago by Greedyfly

[lambtiss]

29 minutes ago, Peter Douglas said:

This is worth a read...

https://flip.it/CaRN.z

Fair analysis. However,I think Tonda is more aware if the issues than the article makes out.

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

17 minutes ago, Greedyfly said:

Solid response as expected from someone who's initial comments were basically 

Saints second half performances under Tonda.......

 

QPR 2:1

 

Sh Wed 1:0

 

Charl 0:0

 

Leics 0:0

 

Millwall 2:3

 

Brum 1:1

 

WBA 0:2

 

Yes, we had dominated many of the first halves, but we totally switch into passive mode after the break. Last night it was a bloody good thing we had scored 3 in the first 45.

I'm enjoying the wins and the attacking football. If I've got an opinion that we Saints should do better not sure why you're getting so angry.

Anyway, enjoy the ride as I am!

[Greedyfly]

13 minutes ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

Saints second half performances under Tonda.......

 

QPR 2:1

 

Sh Wed 1:0

 

Charl 0:0

 

Leics 0:0

 

Millwall 2:3

 

Brum 1:1

 

WBA 0:2

 

Yes, we had dominated many of the first halves, but we totally switch into passive mode after the break. Last night it was a bloody good thing we had scored 3 in the first 45.

I'm enjoying the wins and the attacking football. If I've got an opinion that we Saints should do better not sure why you're getting so angry.

Anyway, enjoy the ride as I am!

I've already done the why on this but it largely matters not when you are 3-0 at halftime in 5 of those games.