Very Angry but Id keep Tonda

[OzzySaint]

Like many fanatic Saints fans around the world I’m in shock – not so much about the punishment – I was expecting it which is why I cashed out my bet last week for Saints promotion – but about the stupidity of the action.

I am angry and deeply deeply disappointed that this was allowed to occur – where is the governance in this club. The board has a duty to ensure that the team does not break the law or breach the rules. You can shoot the manager, shoot the director of strategy and shoot any other individual but it matters not, it is the board that is culpable. They set the culture and moral behavior of the club.

The board would have completed a risk assessment at the start of the season on best / worst case scenarios, when we got into the playoffs they should have revisited this and performed a risk analysis against all possibilities including breaching regulations. Its not about being wise after the event but any company that has a deal on the table for $millions is going to analyse what could go wrong and mitigate it. Instruction/ reminders  should have been given about what was allowable and what wasn’t including “No attending training sessions prior to 72 hours before game”. ! I feel for Tonda and the team – if he made a judgement error I am sure that he would not have foreseen the likely repercussions.

Forget the punishment – it was always going to be expulsion – what else could they do? Give a mickey mouse fine that we would have paid the first week in the EPL  or give future points deductions that mean nothing??  - we got a punishment that was designed to stop this happening in the future and we deserve it.

I love the Saints and have been waking up early in the morning most weeks to watch them from Melbourne for years – my house is even called The Dell. I feel for all other fans (and sponsors) who like me were looking forward to being in the premiership next year and regaining respect for our performances given last seasons debacle. I feel for all the players who will quite rightly feel angry and aggrieved for being let down off the pitch.

Unlike many of the posts I am not calling for Tonda’s head – I believe he did what he was tasked to do, get Saints into a promotion position. The fact that no one was overseeing the compliance with the leagues regulations is not his issue – it is the boards and they have to answer for this.

I hope im wrong but I see us losing many players, being a pariah club new players wont want to come to and as importantly tarnishing our academy development. Be careful not to throw Tonda out with the bathwater as we will need him next season – he’s a very good manager and we should all remember how hard these are to come by. 

[sockeye]

We might not have a choice if the FA suspend him.

[S-Clarke]

Tonda, if found to be implicated - which looks fairly damming - will almost certainly be sacked by the club in breach of contract and it will follow up with an FA ban for a long period of time.

We won't have a choice.

[OzzySaint]

True and that will probably be the case - you can't do the "i was only following orders defense" but who was there to oversee the decision and was it actually his decision?

 

Edited 5 hours ago by OzzySaint
mis type

[Saint86]

Sadly, I think those saying he will be banned are correct.

[Jack]

A ban for Tonda aside, are players going to trust and respect him? Or even want to play for him? Are new players going to want to sign for him? Is he going to be any good now that he can’t cheat? I think the club needs to move those involved on asap and start to rebuild our reputation 

[Saint Fan CaM]

If it’s clear that Tonda made no direct instruction to sanction the spying then he should stay - I.e. I could imagine that the analyst team operate independently as a service to the coaching staff and report to Spors. Otherwise, yes, he should go.

[Saint_clark]

5 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

If it’s clear that Tonda made no direct instruction to sanction the spying then he should stay - I.e. I could imagine that the analyst team operate independently as a service to the coaching staff and report to Spors. Otherwise, yes, he should go.

If the telegraph article is accurate, and we've got no reason to suspect it isn't at this point, then this is almost entirely on Tonda. 

[St. Ciervo]

Build a bonfire... All of them must go. 

[Saint_clark]

13 minutes ago, St. Ciervo said:

Build a bonfire... All of them must go. 

Yep. Anyone who knew is complicit. Get rid, clear the club out of the lot, start again.

[Farmer Saint]

Playing Devil's advocate here, if Tonda didn't know it was a rule and genuinely thought it was fine, then a ban seems massively harsh. The club should have told him it was a banned practice in the Championship.

I've got a horrible feeling here that this is more a mistake than anything malicious, hence why we've admitted to it so quickly and cooperated.

Edited 1 hour ago by Farmer Saint

[St. Ciervo]

6 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Playing Devil's advocate here, if Tonda didn't know it was a rule and genuinely thought it was fine, then a ban seems massively harsh. The club should have told him it was a banned practice in the Championship.

I've got a horrible feeling here that this is more a mistake than anything malicious, hence why we've admitted to it so quickly and cooperated.

You sweet, innocent, new-born, baby fawn. 

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, St. Ciervo said:

You sweet, innocent, new-born, baby fawn. 

But why would he think it's against the rules?

[St. Ciervo]

Because he is a professional. This is his job. He, and others, should know the rules for their own position. 

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, St. Ciervo said:

Because he is a professional. This is his job. He, and others, should know the rules for their own position. 

Which is what I said in my post - the club should have told him. This is his first management role.

Why would he necessarily know that in one league in the whole world this is a rule?

Edited 1 hour ago by Farmer Saint

[CB Fry]

He's going to be banned from football. It's not a choice we're going to make, it's happening anyway.

He 100% will never manage us again.

[St. Ciervo]

I wasn't honestly digging at you. Im just stunned with every new development. My apologies.

But the kid was trying to be coy behind the tree. The club is passing off jokes and images... None of that would be happening if the assumption was that this was okay. 

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, St. Ciervo said:

I wasn't honestly digging at you. Im just stunned with every new development. My apologies.

But the kid was trying to be coy behind the tree. The club is passing off jokes and images... None of that would be happening if the assumption was that this was okay. 

I disagree.

[Teamsaint1]

Football governance is full of rules that potentially bring big punishments for small errors. 
It is inexcusable , especially at this level, to have sanctioned this or not checked the legality.

Tonda and others will pay the price, as will the fans. 

[AlexLaw76]

18 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

But why would he think it's against the rules?

He was an assistant manager at another EFL club, as well as coaching here

not knowing the rules is no excuse

[benjii]

Absolutely not, if he has been involved in this (which it seems he has).

Tonda needs to be sacked (along with any other coaches involved), Spors needs to be sacked - unless his role had no first team oversight duty - and Parsons needs to be sacked. Ideally Dragan and his band of idiots would also piss off, but there's no one who can sack them.

 

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

He was an assistant manager at another EFL club, as well as coaching here

not knowing the rules is no excuse

So, was he assistant manager in the year it took place? Again, why would he know.

For instance, do you know it is illegal to gamble in a British library?

Edited 44 minutes ago by Farmer Saint

[The Wyvern]

A ban obviously takes it out of our hands, but why was no-one calling for Tonda to be sacked this time last week?  By that point it was clear we’d done something wrong and he’d have been involved in it, but we thought we were still going to Wembley so no-one cared. 

[CB Fry]

7 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

So, was he assistant manager in the year it took place? Again, why would he know.

For instance, do you know it is illegal to gamble in a British library?

Jesus wept. 

The man is a fully grown adult, and a highly paid top level football professional. Just fuck off with the "wah wah nobody told me it was wrong" bullshit.

Edited 37 minutes ago by CB Fry

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Jesus wept. 

The man is a fully grown adult, and a highly paid top level football professional. Just fuck off with the "wah wah nobody told me it was wrong" bullshit.

Alright mate, no need to lose your temper at 6am.

Calm yourself or you'll ruin your day.

Edited 35 minutes ago by Farmer Saint

[CB Fry]

1 minute ago, Farmer Saint said:

Alright mate, no need to lose your temper at 6am.

Calm yourself or you'll ruin your day.

Sorry no one ever one told me is was wrong to rant on a football forum

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, CB Fry said:

Sorry no one ever one told me is was wrong to rant on a football forum

Because I don't think it is, is it? See, even you don't know the rules and I assume you've been on here a loooonnnnggg time.

[coalman]

5 minutes ago, The Wyvern said:

A ban obviously takes it out of our hands, but why was no-one calling for Tonda to be sacked this time last week?  By that point it was clear we’d done something wrong and he’d have been involved in it, but we thought we were still going to Wembley so no-one cared. 

Because we didn't know what Saints would be presenting at the hearing. Everyone deserve a fair hearing. If you're the manager it's your job to know the rules in your league.

[St. Ciervo]

11 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

So, was he assistant manager in the year it took place? Again, why would he know.

For instance, do you know it is illegal to gamble in a British library?

I am confident that if I were a librarian, I would be aware of this rule. But even that rule is a push. This would be more like, "Did you know it is illegal to spy on people using the toilet when in a British library?"  Fun fact, we all - I hope - know that to be true already. 

[SaintNate]

I find it really hard to believe that not a single one of these twats had the backbone to tell him that it was against the rules when the idea was brought up.

Which makes them all complicit.

Sack the lot of them. Including the Nivea boy, fucking leech. 

God it's depressing being a fan of this fucking club. 

[LVSaint]

2 minutes ago, The Wyvern said:

A ban obviously takes it out of our hands, but why was no-one calling for Tonda to be sacked this time last week?  By that point it was clear we’d done something wrong and he’d have been involved in it, but we thought we were still going to Wembley so no-one cared. 

Because we're humans and thought that it'd be handled with a fine and docked points, as it should have been. As it all comes together now, it hits home just what the fuck were they thinking, sinks in. At an attempt to move on from this cunting clusterfuck, tonda has to go even if he's not banned.

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, St. Ciervo said:

I am confident that if I were a librarian, I would be aware of this rule. But even that rule is a push. This would be more like, "Did you know it is illegal to spy on people using the toilet when in a British library?"  Fun fact, we all - I hope - know that to be true already. 

Yes, and that is probably illegal in multiple countries, so he would have been brought up with that rule. He's also not the equivalent of a Librarian - that would be the FA in that analogy.

However if it was legal to do that in every other country and he had done it in Germany, Italy etc, apart from being a massive sex pest, why would he come to the UK and think it's illegal?

Edited 28 minutes ago by Farmer Saint

[CB Fry]

1 minute ago, Farmer Saint said:

Because I don't think it is, is it? See, even you don't know the rules and I assume you've been on here a loooonnnnggg time.

Sorry at the moment I am busy having a wank in the Horticulture section of the British Library which i understand to be fine because no one has ever told me otherwise.

I'll reply to you when I have washed my hands.

[The Wyvern]

1 minute ago, coalman said:

Because we didn't know what Saints would be presenting at the hearing. Everyone deserve a fair hearing. If you're the manager it's your job to know the rules in your league.

But we all knew one of Tonda’s coaching team had been caught spying. Nothing has changed since then apart from the severity of our punishment. That is what this is a reaction to. 

[The Wyvern]

1 minute ago, LVSaint said:

Because we're humans and thought that it'd be handled with a fine and docked points, as it should have been. As it all comes together now, it hits home just what the fuck were they thinking, sinks in. At an attempt to move on from this cunting clusterfuck, tonda has to go even if he's not banned.

That’s my point, it’s an emotional reaction to the severity of the punishment, if we’d been found guilty, got hit with a fine and be playing at Wembley in a couple of days most of our support would still be singing his name. 

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, The Wyvern said:

But we all knew one of Tonda’s coaching team had been caught spying. Nothing has changed since then apart from the severity of our punishment. That is what this is a reaction to. 

There was a possibility before the announcement that this was the data analysis department working on their own steam to cheat and get extra info to feed back to the coaching staff without them being aware of where it was coming from. 

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, CB Fry said:

Sorry at the moment I am busy having a wank in the Horticulture section of the British Library which i understand to be fine because no one has ever told me otherwise.

I'll reply to you when I have washed my hands.

I get that you are struggling with the analogy, but what you have written above would be illegal in all countries, whereas spying is only illegal in one country, and not even in the top division.

[The Wyvern]

Just now, Saint_clark said:

There was a possibility before the announcement that this was the data analysis department working on their own steam to cheat and get extra info to feed back to the coaching staff without them being aware of where it was coming from. 

I don’t think anyone believed that did they. 

[CB Fry]

1 minute ago, Farmer Saint said:

I get that you are struggling with the analogy, but what you have written above would be illegal in all countries, whereas spying is only illegal in one country, and not even in the top division.

The analogy is bullshit. He should know and I will say he did know.

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, The Wyvern said:

That’s my point, it’s an emotional reaction to the severity of the punishment, if we’d been found guilty, got hit with a fine and be playing at Wembley in a couple of days most of our support would still be singing his name. 

There are a lot of people on this forum and thread who just can't control their emotions, @CB Fry is struggling with that at the moment.

Unfortunately levels of emotional maturity don't follow peoples age.

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, CB Fry said:

The analogy is bullshit. He should know and I will say he did know.

 

Bullshit because you don't seem o understand it, demonstrated by your analogy that doesn't work.

But anyway, let's not bury the lead, CB Fry said he did know, so it must be true.

[AlexLaw76]

If Tonda did not know this was against the rules, I would suggest he was not 'over the detail' anywhere near to a level we were led to believe.

He knew, he admitted it and he will leave the club in the near future.

Anything else is pure wishful thinking like we witnessed in many posts on the SpyGate thread, where some suggested this lad (Salt) was not even working for Saints and randomly went to Boro for his own entertainment.

Edited 21 minutes ago by AlexLaw76

[Saint_clark]

2 minutes ago, The Wyvern said:

I don’t think anyone believed that did they. 

I didn't say they did, I said it was a possibility. Now it's been confirmed that Tonda was largely responsible for dragging our clubs reputation through the mud to try and progress his own personal reputation. 

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

If Tonda did not know this was against the rules, I would suggest he was not 'over the detail' anywhere near to a level we were led to believe.

Agreed.

[CB Fry]

1 minute ago, Farmer Saint said:

 

Bullshit because you don't seem o understand it, demonstrated by your analogy that doesn't work.

But anyway, let's not bury the lead, CB Fry said he did know, so it must be true.

Let's pick up again when the FA take that mitigation and definitely don't ban him.

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, CB Fry said:

Let's pick up again when the FA take that mitigation and definitely don't ban him.

Not sure anyone has said he won't be banned, as I said above this is all devils advocate.

Hope you manage to calm yourself and have a good day 👍 

[Toussaint]

24 minutes ago, benjii said:

Absolutely not, if he has been involved in this (which it seems he has).

Tonda needs to be sacked (along with any other coaches involved), Spors needs to be sacked - unless his role had no first team oversight duty - and Parsons needs to be sacked. Ideally Dragan and his band of idiots would also piss off, but there's no one who can sack them.

 

Unless there is some hugely wealthy saints fan, or body, with our best interests at heart, waiting in the wings, I think Dragan owes it to us to get us out of this mess. This event could send us into free fall, the club in reality is the fans, everyone else is temporary. We are stuck here. 

[The Wyvern]

2 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I didn't say they did, I said it was a possibility. Now it's been confirmed that Tonda was largely responsible for dragging our clubs reputation through the mud to try and progress his own personal reputation. 

If he’d been found guilty but the punishment was a fine no-one would really care and no-one would be suggesting he or SR should be sacked/replaced.

Probably be taken out of our hands anyway, but this is all a reaction to the punishment not the crime. 

[CanadaSaint]

Thanks to the performance of whoever represented us in the hearing, the ship has sailed when it comes to any kind of plausible deniability.

Our only hope revolves around challenging the totally disproportionate punishment, especially given the fact that the very same rule book allows “spying” to exist in a legal and acceptable form, and the fact that the punishment handed to Leeds, who did it far more extensively than us, was far less severe. And there were not many clubs out there, if any (other than Boro), ready to cast the first stone.

We deserve to be in a very hot seat, but so does the EFL. They can still make their point without taking a chainsaw to a 141 year-old club.

[die Mannyschaft]

Tonda cant stay as its a ban under FA rules. Or sure EFL stated he will be banned.  Plus Saints underestimated the fact Boro are on the EFL board.

Sports Republic,  Tonda and his team, PR, legal all need to go as ruined this club and reputation.  This will stick for 25 years or more all because Saints couldn't be honest enough from first hour this was raised and deliberately stitched the fans up.